Load bearing walls corner removal for kitchen open concept

9 years ago

We're planning kitchen remodeling. I'm looking for structural advise about walls removal for making open concept kitchen.

The attached floorplan shows the walls to be removed (hatched) and the walls of the second floor (in red).

Our kitchen is a U shape open to a Family Rm at South direction. On the North side is a Dining room with a connecting door to the kitchen. The dining room is open to a living room on its East side. The living room is on the NE side of the kitchen.
A double door on the East side connects to an entrance and stairs to the second floor.

I'd like to remove all of the East wall and 2.5ft from the North wall. This will make 27ft North-Shouth openning (11ft are original).
Those walls has to somehow support the second floor. We have Master Bdrm (and Master suite) over the Kitchen and Dining Rm. The Master Bdrm has about 4ft overhang to the North beyond first floor exterior wall and a 4ft cantilever porch beyond that. There is a post 4ft away from the North wall, supporting a 8.5" x 5.5" beam.

I suspect both walls to be removed are load bearing walls.
What it would take to remove those walls?
What kind of beam(s) would be needed to support the second floor?
Could the second floor be supported without any column at the opening?

I'd appreciate any advice I could get about the structural support needed.

Comments (8)

_sophiewheeler
9 years ago
You need a local structural engineer to design the support after on on site inspection. This isn't something you can do on the internet. There are too many variables that can impact howthis can happen, including your budget for the project.
PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
9 years ago
alron60:

I am licensed to perform structural alterations in 2 states. That said, there is no difference between hollysprings opinion and mine.
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Okay Amy, from a woman's standpoint who doesn't understand the intricacies of this important task, I hired experts as it seems you will too. So, if you are trying to get a general idea of how it happens, I can tell you. We just had something similar done 3 weeks ago. But on a MUCH smaller scale, I might add. I had a load bearing wall between the kitchen and DR that we wanted to make more open. It supports at least half of our house. We went from a 36" open doorway to approx 80" open. The GC took measurements and found out the size of the header beam that the load required, structurally. When the time came, the carpenters opened up the walls and ceiling, moved the electrical out of the way and installed two temporary walls on each side of the existing ceiling/walls against the attic joists (we have a single story ranch so this might be different for you)Once everything was in place and the load could be essentially transferred to the temp suppports, they sawed thru the existing beams and installed the new longer heavier beam. I ended up with a new 12" deep header where I used to have two walls and an open doorway. It was either that or go into the attic and cut the joists to install a steel beam to carry the load if I wanted a flat ceiling. I opted for the less scary (to me) and more cost effective header :) Also, I googled 'removing a load bearing wall' and watched a few YouTube videos ahead of time so I could kind of understand the process. HTH!
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Josh it really depends on the space. To use the example of my personal home... on the first floor we already had one beam below the ceiling that was real, so on the main level it made sense that the two additional beams would be below the ceiling to create a rhythm that subtly defined the spaces. In my bedroom (formerly two incredibly tiny bedrooms and a bath) we wanted it to feel like one room so we had the beams installed above the ceiling plane. In your case based on one photo I would say above the ceiling...
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Removing the wallpaper in the kitchen would be a big improvement. Wood is ‘in’ plus is classic, and the cabinets look to be in good condition. With a warm white paint on the walls and new countertops, this kitchen would be very nice. And add some under cabinet lighting, if it’s not already there. Maybe down the line, a floor update to wood or wood look vinyl planks or even stone look LVP - but I don’t know if that is even necessary. Personally, I would consider doing these minor kitchen updates, prior to moving in. These couple of changes would make a big difference. As far as the wall:: Personally, there is no way I would remove it. Not only is it load bearing... but it serves an important aesthetic function. Open concept is really a bit overdone, at this point. Everyone is not interested in sitting in the living room and looking smack into the kitchen. Plus, with your setup, I think you would also have a grand view of the kitchen from the foyer - without that load bearing wall there. I would personally have zero interest in spending a ton of money and tearing up a house for the end result of less privacy and less graciousness. But it is a matter of personal preference, of course.
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I would put hardwood floors throughout the area but I am partial to hardwood and know it’s not budget friendly. You could use rugs to create distinct areas — one for dining and then one with the couch you float. Then choose a curtain to coordinate with rugs. Then pull a couch color from the rug (I believe in choosing your favorite color for a couch unless doing a white slipcover which actually has been my best couch with kids because BLEACH haha. Most couches today just don’t last forever anyways — get something you will love). Then choose an accent colors for toss pillows, get an end table and some lamps, and a chair in your accent color. Art. Then paint. And maybe think about painting the brick and wait until the other elements come together to see how you feel about it. I think you would feel a lot better about the space if it looks more put together. Then for your storage, you could get ikea sektion cabinets or something like that and even paint them to have more attractive storage and there are even hacks to make them look more built in. I’ve hacked several ikea things in my house (closets, playroom storage, a bookcase.. and I am not a DIY person at all LOL but custom storage is so expensive and if it’s not in areas where I entertain or my kids are just going to beat it up, no way am I doing anything custom) you could maybe even add “mudroom cabinets” because your garage door leads into the dining room correct? You could totally hack ikea pax into mudroom cabinets if on a tight budget/. You could maybe also add a pantry cabinet if you need extra storage (I don’t think I saw a pantry in your drawing and this is where getting the full floor detail is really helpful!!) if you can better think about what you need, you can probably get more advice about what to do with that area.
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jakuvall
9 years ago
What they said.
Partial answer to what you're up against.
Not simple.
A beam for a 27ft span will usually not fit into the ceiling so will protrude down.
Loads have to carry down to footings. If not already there either new ones must be added or the load transferred to existing with another beam downstairs.
All may all be complicated by the cantilever on the second floor.
Getting the beam into the house, positioned and installed at that size is always interesting.

If you're ready to cope with all that then call an engineer for a real answer and a contractor for a price.
live_wire_oak
9 years ago
With a 2 story structure, removing load bearing walls gets to be infinitely more difficult than in a one story. There's also snow loads, and seismic and high wind stability with resistance to shearing to consider in creating the support for what you are thinking of removing.

If this is to be a DIY project, you need to have a pretty well experienced friend list in the trades that are willing to give you a couple of weekends for a heck of a lot of pizza and beer, and you'd better be well experienced as well. Might be cheaper (and safer!) to just call a licensed contractor who already has the burly guys on his payroll and can do this a bit quicker.

And that IS after a consult with a structural engineer who will create the support plan! That's how you know for sure that your house won't fall down in the next high wind. :-)
schicksal
9 years ago
We removed about that much load bearing wall between the kitchen and family room at our place and absolutely got a licensed civil engineer involved. A framing subcontractor handled the labor. This is the one portion of the project that was absolutely not DIY.

I agree with the others above. The answer to your questions is a great big "it depends."
feisty68
9 years ago
"It depends" sure is right.

Ask your city what is required for a building permit, and you will definitely find an engineer is part of that. I would strongly recommend that you resolve the structural design issues before working on layout at all.

I went through the most absurd process of hiring a structural engineer and he gave me answers that I now know to be correct, but that were extremely disappointing. What I thought was a simple little thing turned out to be something that would involve a massive undertaking.

People on the internet cannot advise you about this without either seeing architectural drawings or visiting your home.
Cloud Swift
9 years ago
Our son and DIL had a load bearing wall removed when remodeling their kitchen. Their situation was a lot simpler than yours as it is a one story house. I don't have the exact dimensions, but I'm pretty sure that it was less than 27'. Also there are no snow loads to consider here.

As others have advised you, a structural engineer was required to consult with and approve the plans.

Footings needed to be poured for the posts to support the beam and a beam installed to span the gap. Since they are in a one story, the beam is above the ceiling.
rmtdoug
9 years ago
27' is a very wide span to retrofit. If heavy snow loads/earthquakes are a risk, you are taking about a pretty big glulam. Have the structural engineers also consider a steel beam. That might be more cost efficient.

Load bearing walls corner removal for kitchen open concept

Comments (8)

_sophiewheeler

Joseph Corlett, LLC

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