The problem is saying "and the child should enjoy the standard of living that their parents enjoy, but that doesn't mean the children's other parent gets to enjoy it too." -- what if mom can only afford to live in a shack and dad has a mansion? Some things dont have to be shared, like vacations, etc., but housing is a tough one. I realize that your mom may have been irresponsible, but there are plenty of single moms who arent. They work hard every day. So under your scenariou, Dad can buy a big house with a pool and tennis, and lure child over there, even if mom is better parent.

"what if mom can only afford to live in a shack and dad has a mansion?"

Well...what if mom has a huge farm house that sits on 20 acres completely with horse barns, pastures, riding trails, and natural gas rights and dad can only afford to rent a duplex with the help of SM?

KKNY, are you suggesting that my SD has the right to all those amenities when she's here and that my DH should go file for a child support reduction so that we can afford those things as well so that BM can no longer "lure" her away from DH, even if he is the "better parent"?

First of all, neither parent is the 'better parent' right off the bat. Dads & Moms are supposed to be 'equal' parents unless one is proven worse. I don't argue that moms get custody more often than dads, but that doesn't necessarily mean that moms are the better parent. It may only mean that the father didn't fight for custody. (I believe that fathers don't tend to fight for custody unless the mother is lacking, which is why most of the custodial step parents here are dealing with terrible BM's) Maybe he realizes that the children have a good mom and he's a good dad that's going to provide for them by working & paying support to the mom. If he takes a promotion and the mom can't work as much because she has small kids, then yeah, she will get more child support because his income goes up and she's sacrificing her career to raise the kids, in that situation, she deserves more support so she can maintain her standard of living. If the mom has school aged kids or teens and she could work while they are at school, but chooses not to because she doesn't want to work, but she expects him to keep her in the lifestyle she had when they were married and both of them worked, then no, he doesn't have an obligation to do that. It's all relevant to the facts of each situation. Like I said, it doesn't factor in the attitudes of the parties.

and if mom can only live in a shack and dad in a mansion, I would first look at what they lived in together. Then that would be the biggest factor in whether he should keep her in a mansion or not. If they had a nice house, she should remain in the nice house, not move to a shack. But if they lived in a shack together and he marries someone in a mansion, then I guess maybe she should look for someone that has a mansion too, if she wants that for herself. It's not his job to give her the lifestyle of his new spouse. Just like it wouldn't be right for him to decide that he no longer has to pay support because she marries a millionaire and moves to a mansion. Even if he still lived in a shack, he would still have to pay her support. Her new husband's income would not matter when it comes to him supporting his children, he would still have that obligation.

Ima, I said if, I have seen great and poor parents of every sex, race etc. If, if if. I dont assume. And mom may be working outside the home, and still not able to provide as well as Dad. There are many variables.

well, this is all in response to theotherside thinking she should benefit because her husband married a wealthier spouse. If theotherside had married a wealthy man and her exH had to live in a modest home while she lived in luxury, should he benefit by not having to pay her any support anymore? After all, her new husband is providing a big nice house and since she is married to him, she can now buy everything the kids need or want. (that would be ridiculous and I think we've already agreed that a parent should support their children, even if the CP has more money or better situation.)

I don't see why she feels it's her 'right' to get something out of his living situation with his wife. He does have an obligation to support his kids and if he can make more money than he does, his ability should be imputed. But, I think the court has already determined that because of his age, they won't do that. While I don't think it's fair what he's done to her, it's not his wife's fault.

I think if I were to get married again (aaahhh -- I know) to someone with children, and just because I could support him in my house, etc., as much as I say I believe in keeping money seperate, if he quit his job and wasnt paying CS based on what his old job was I would tell him where the door was. Not that it is her fault, but based upon what TOS has said, her Xs wife is an enabler in my book. But as you get to be a certain age, there are less men around. Now I feel a woman without a man is like a fish without without a bicycle, but that may be the minority view.

sure, she can show him the door and he can go rent his own place. Then he might want to lower his support even more. That would not be beneficial to her. His wife may be an enabler, but so is an ex husband that pays spousal support to an ex wife that won't get a job, not because she can't but because she doesn't want to. How long should an ex husband pay spousal support for a wife that won't work? and if it's true that he's paying support for more than the number of kids that she still has at home, there's even less sympathy for her plight. She keeps saying she has six kids but I don't recall how many are minors and still living at home. She has said some are grown and others in college. It would be a bigger issue if she had six kids that she was still supporting at home. but I don't think that's the case.

I just think it's time for her to lay blame where it belongs, on her exH for being a dirtbag and not his wife, who may be an enabler but he's the one that is shirking his responsibility.

$286???? That IS crazy.

I am going off your word Ima and I do believe you with the situation with BM.

However, I am continually surprised with just how low child support can be. $286 is not enough child support at all. I can see in some cases where the CP would have to give custody to the NCP if they were awarded a low amount.

I can see where spousal support is needed and still relevant. Many women stay at home to raise the children of marriage. It puts them years behind everyone else in an already not too great job market. It was the couples choice while married and *both* need to own up to it. It is not that easy to just get up and get a job and suddenly deal with being a single mother.

Well nivea,

do you read all of the posts or just skim through? Why should there be ANY child support when they both had the child equal time? She wanted the court to use my income to give her over $1200 a month and as far as I'm concerned, she's lucky she got a dime. At the time, they had 50/50 custody. Each had one week on/off. BM was living at her mom's house, not paying rent, utilities, or food. (she was already getting $1200 from her husband for her older daughter and not contributing to her mom's housing or food for her & her kids) DH and I pay all our living expenses and when SD needs anything, BM tells her to ask her dad. The only reason she was awarded anything is because she chooses not to work and he has worked 21 years for the same employer and makes very good money. So, his income being higher and her not working, she got $286, even though she has the ability to earn almost the same as my husband as she was EMT certified (but quit her job as an EMT to go to school to be a nurse) and then spent almost five years going to school for a two year degree. In other words, she was using her 'student' status as a reason to not have a job and using the excuse of raising kids to take so long to finish school. (not realizing that most single parents that take that long to finish a two year degree are probably working and don't live at home with a built in babysitter) I don't buy into those excuses because I worked full time, went to school full time at night and on the one night a week that I didn't go to school, I was a den leader for my kids & my exBF's kids cub scout den. (Granted, I was living with my exBF and he took care of the kids at night) If you want to do something, you will figure it out, not expect someone else to take care of you forever.

If a couple agrees that mom will stay home and care for the children but then they divorce, then there should be a time for her to get support so she can go back to school or start working on a career. I wouldn't thrust someone into being a single parent with no help, but that doesn't mean that he needs to support her until the kids are grown. Once she knows that the marriage is over, she should start a new plan, the old one isn't going to happen. The old plan is that he is going to be there working, while she's raising the kids, married to her.. that changed to so the whole plan changed. You can't pick and choose which parts you want to keep. Spousal support should be temporary. Yet, my DH's ex has been getting some spousal support as well as child support from her husband for 12 years. They were only married one year and she claimed that she worked during the marriage.

and if you think $286 is low. I have raised my kids with NO visitation from their father's. One was ordered to pay $310 a month. The other $72 per month. My oldest did visit his dad and his dad was ordered to pay $196 a month.

and I've posted before, none of them ever paid regularly. I have gotten an occasional check but usually years in between. I'm owed well over $150-175K between all three.

Here's an example of my DH's ex: They went to court on August 7. The court took the support issue under submission and sent out the ruling on August 20 and it said that 'beginning August 1, father shall pay mother $286' so BM called DH and began yelling at him that he was late, she was going to file contempt charges. He hadn't even gotten his copy from the court and she's threatening to have him jailed for not paying.

Fast forward to now. We've had SD living with us for six months. BM hasn't paid DH a penny for SD (even though we have an order for her to pay half of all medical costs) and when DH asked her why she hasn't paid her half, BM told him that he's supposed to be paying HER. She thinks that telling him to keep the $286 is the same as her paying support.

Since you asked, I am still supporting FOUR kids, not one, as someone suggested. Two of them are in college, which obviously costs me far more than it cost me to support them when they were in high school. In my state, child support continues for students until they graduate or reach 23 (or maybe 24, I don't remember exactly). That is mandatory, not something that the court has any discretion in.

I don't want HER money - I want child support to be a bigger proportion of HIS income - income which should include the $1000 or so of free rent that he gets.

TOS,

So since my SD's BM lives rent free in a home her father could rent out for at least $2,000 a month and we rent a duplex for $550 a month, do you think my DH should get to pay less child support because of her good fortune?

Heck yeah oh_my! In fact, DH is taking BM to court soon to get an order for support since she won't willingly pay a penny for her child. She lives rent free with her BF. I think that should be included as income to her. She should get credit for at least half his rent. I would even argue that she 'earns' it by cleaning his house and providing other services. After all, she is a stay at home NCP. That should increase what she should have to pay him. Of course, if he starts taking off time from work to do all those things that TOS and KKNY keep saying that custodial dads should be doing for their kids, instead of relying on SM to do it, then his income would drop down and then she'd have to pay him even more. I'm liking this already. Thanks for the ideas TOS.... I think we'll call our lawyer tomorrow. After all, we are going to ask her to pay the attorney's fee too. I mean, we wouldn't even have to have an attorney if she would agree to pay something by agreement. Instead, she is forcing him to take her to court. Yeah, and when she's a day late in paying, should we call her and threaten to take her back on contempt charges???

oh my,

Yes, I do. Obviously the court, not you or me, would be the one to determine the fair market rent. In my state, they take the basic order computation and then adjust it by the ratio of incomes, after subtracting a base amount from the CP's income. It is a complicated computation, but the higher the CP's income, the less child support she (or he) receives. It is always greater than zero, because the NCP is always expected (rightly) to contribute to the child's support.

Instead of whining how complicated it is ... here is the link for the Mass DOR ... has the all the forms needed to file a modification with the court system ...

You live in NE only 3 states have an $8 an hour or higher minimum wage.

VT is 7.67
RI is 7.40
NH is 6.50
ME is 7.00
CT is 7.65
MA is 8.00

California and Washington are the other two states.

If you need the links to other states websites to file modification I will be glad to look them up for you.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mass forms for modification of CS

Oh for Pete's sake. How can you complain about others picking apart someone's posts, and then complain because I said it was a complicated computation. You know full well I was not "whining" - the computation is too complicated to bother explaining in detail in a post, when oh_my undoubtedly does not care about the minute details specific to my state. If I had included the computation, you would have complained about that, too.

$h!+ or get of the pot.

Stop whining about what you are not getting and go get it.... you don't even need a lawyer guidelines are guidelines ... no debate. If you don't like the agreement DON'T SIGN IT. Have the judge decide if you don't like fight it again and again till you get what you think you deserve.

Simple

Cawfe, as Ima has said, not all parties have money for an attorney. TOS's X wife can subsidize endless rounds of attonreys. I sympathize for her. I really wonder if some of the second wifes here are left with a child, maybe then they might develope some sympathy for someone left in that situation.

Oh yes, there is room for debate, when you are talking about imputed income especially. I can assure you that if one party has an attorney and the other party does not, the party without an attorney is at a severe disadvantage. I don't have the money for an attorney, or the time to take off from work - it would be stupid for me to spend more money on a lawyer and lost income than I would get back in child support, and that is what would happen if I kept going back to court over and over.

And my post about computation of child support was in answer to another poster's question. Am I not supposed to answer questions asked of me, now?

I do like my new feature :)

If you think you are due/owed/deserve so much more in CS then I would say yes its worth it.... considering you have what almost 10 years more collecting CS. You don't think the extra $40,000 a year would be worth it? make up your mind. Its not like FOTY is going to hand you a check for the difference.

You said you exchange tax info every year you could file every April 15th for a modification.

You are going to almost retirement age by the time CS stops.

I may not be an ex wife of any years, but I WAS left with three kids to raise alone and even if it was partly my own fault, it still cost a lot to raise kids and I didn't get the support I should have. KKNY, you have criticized me for NOT going back to court to get them to pay. When I said it would be too time consuming and costly for me to go back to court all the time, and the fact that I knew I would probably get very little paid to me since they didn't work on the books or HAVE anything, I was criticized again. Why is it you can criticize a SM (over what I did as a BM with my own kids) but you defend TOS for the same thing? In fact, TOS has a better chance of getting paid if she gets an award. and if she's trying to get $40k, it's worth it.

and TOS, if you aren't going to take him back to court because he has a wife with enough money to pay his attorney, then don't go. But quit your griping about it here!!! WE ALL KNOW WHAT A JERK HE IS. WE ALL KNOW THAT YOU ARE LIVING AT POVERTY LEVEL, DESPITE THE FACT YOU HAVE MORE EDUCATION THAN THE REST OF US. WE ALL KNOW YOU HAVE SIX KIDS, EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE 'SUPPORTING' ONLY FOUR. (and college students can work & contribute to their education too) WE ALL KNOW TOW IS AN ENABLER AND YOU BLAME HER, NOT YOUR HUSBAND, FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.... SHUT UP!!!(about the lack of child support)

You have been 'venting' about it for at least six months that I've been on this board. You don't need an attorney to go into court and get a modification. You can also go to the department of child support services.. it's free. It's a different story if you are talking about imputing income to him because from what I recall, you've tried that and the court disagreed with you. IF YOU LOST, LET IT GO! If you are not going to keep fighting, then what's the point of complaining about it here? Sympathy? You have my sympathy for the jerk that left you with six kids and doesn't see his kids or support them properly. Then you defend him and say you'd take him back so then I just think you are either stupid or so emotionally damaged that you have literally no self esteem, then I feel sorry for you again. It really is a vicious cycle and it really is getting old.

Ima, this is blog, all can write.

As much as some SMs beleive they have the right to determine what people can complain about -- they dont.

Well, don't I have the right to complain about being tired of hearing about TOS's child support woes??? WTF!!!

the first paragraph was for you... you didn't even respond to THAT!!!

Cawfe, we all have the right to read what we want. Frankly, I dont recall critizing Ima for not pursuing CS after she said there was no money there (and note she doesnt ascribe that to me, just in general). What I do think is that some people have different expectations of what a Dad should pay, and some here think that X isnt entiteld to much becuase they didnt get much, and I dont buy into that. I also think that child shouldnt bear brunt of dad not contributing.

I may have been mistaken or confused TOS with KKNY, not sure how THAT would happen?? lol But, this is a little of what you said to me about child support. I'm pretty sure I recall either TOS or KKNY telling me that I was being irresponsible or my kids were suffering because I wouldn't drag their father's back into court to "Make" them pay. I don't really have the time (or desire) to go sifting through months of posts to find them, but when some insults just stick out in the memory. Especially when I have to defend how I supported them alone without any help... But I guess it's okay if you are not a SM and you would rather have something to whine about.

*********************************************************************

IN ONE THREAD:

* Posted by kkny (My Page) on
Wed, Jan 2, 08 at 12:49

Ima, I dont think it is always, or even frequenlty, vindicativeness. I think even the potential of jail, or short jail, will incentivize many to get a job and pay the back CS. Even the threat of lost drivers license, etc., may provide incentive. So by going to court, the finanical situation may improve. It is unfortunate that some CPs dont have the resources to pursue, and some NCPs can evade, but that doesnt mean the CP shouldnt go to court. And PS now that the laws on passports are getting tougher, that is another non-jail alternative.

* Posted by imamommy (misshalk_2000@yahoo.com) on
Wed, Jan 2, 08 at 22:12

You're entitled to your opinion. I still think it's vindictive. I could have pressed to have my ex jailed but then it would have adversely affected his other four children to put their father in jail when at least he was being a parent to them. Is he a deadbeat? Yep. and he did the wrong thing by making more kids than he can take care of. I guess if he was capable of paying it, then it's an incentive that would work. But if he isn't capable of paying it, what good does it do, besides make the CP feel good to know the SOB is in jail, which is being vindictive.

* Posted by kkny (My Page) on
Wed, Jan 2, 08 at 22:14

Was he paying when he had additional child #1?, #2?

If not, and you had stepped up enforcement, he might not have had child #3 or 4.

AND IN A DIFFERENT THREAD:

* Posted by imamommy (My Page) on
Mon, Nov 19, 07 at 1:57

It isn't irresponsible to let the court make an award and if it doesn't get paid, then for me the answer was to work as hard as I could to take care of my kids. I am owed over $100,000 in back child support (I lost count because the interest is now much more than the principal and I know it will never get fully paid)

Yes, I made one bad decision after another and I've never said i was perfect. Perhaps it was because I had a mother that spent my teenage years wallowing in self pity and blaming my father for everything that I couldn't wait to get away and be grown up. I didn't have proper guidance but as I got older, I matured, was responsible for my kids and made my way in my careers. And when I was left a single parent of 3 at age 21, I could have wasted my time and energy blaming the father that isn't paying child support but I chose to make my life better without him. And twenty years later, he lives under a mountain of debt that he will never get out from under and I am happy and have children that I am proud of.

* Posted by theotherside (My Page) on
Mon, Nov 19, 07 at 8:52

Deadbeat NCP's continue to exist in large part because too few CP's (and too few governmental entities) are persistent in going after them. It is a huge societal problem and largely responsible for the high poverty level among preschoolers. It is never a waste of time or energy to do whatever is necessary to force a NCP to pay court-awarded child support. To do otherwise is a slap in the face to all those NCP's who do pay child support faithfully.

* Posted by imamommy (My Page) on
Mon, Nov 19, 07 at 11:45

you are entitled to the opinion "It is never a waste of time or energy to do whatever is necessary to force a NCP to pay court-awarded child support"

and I am entitled to my opinion that I would rather spend my time and energy working on building my life (focused on my marriage, children & career) to make it better and not blaming a deadbeat for my problems.

The award of support owed to me is not going to evaporate when my kids are grown ups. It just sits there growing interest. That's his problem, not mine. He will owe it forever.

My kids are well taken care of and have learned that if they want certain things, they have to work for it. I did that, my dad did that and my grandfather did that. It's not a new concept.

and if your ex is a deadbeat and doesn't pay, then that's one thing but if it's about making him pay extra just because you think he can, that's not the same as "to do whatever is necessary to force a NCP to pay court-awarded child support"

* Posted by theotherside (My Page) on
Mon, Nov 19, 07 at 19:22

Deadbeat parents are leaches on society in general. We all pay higher taxes to provide services to children whose NCP's are denying them support. Even in cases where the child does not receive governmental subsidies, the child whose NCP does not pay court-ordered child support is denied the standard of living and often the education to which he or she is entitled.

* Posted by kkny (My Page) on
Mon, Nov 19, 07 at 19:29

TOS, I agree with you. There are many government programs that are means tested, including student loans. They are meant for people who need them, not for people who dont. At my DDs school we run a benefit, so that the principal has funds to pay for uniforms, etc., for children who dont have the money to participate in sports, etc., that they qualify for. Virtually all are children of single mothers. Yes, I do my best to contribute to these efforts, so that every child has a chance, but the funds are limited. To encourage a child, oh if Dad wont pay, find a way is not fair to the community. IMHO.

Earlier, I browsed some old threads because I thought it was KKNY that said I was irresponsible for not dragging my kids' father's to court for CS. But, then I came across this gem from theotherside:

******************************************************************************************************************************************************************

* Posted by theotherside (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 18, 07 at 21:15

I believe it is irresponsible to not seek child support for your children - they are due that money. In my state, child support is virtually always awarded - you can not make an agreement for, say, a one time payment of 100,000 dollars in lieu of child support.

So I am supposed to be impressed because you made one bad decision after another when you were younger? And because your business hasn't failed (yet)? My profession may not be all that high paying, but I am quite certain I earn more than a social worker does. And I don't have to spend my days spouting pyschobabble.

**************************************************************************************************************

So, theotherside... don't you hate it when something you say, comes back to bite you?

I'm referring to:

"And I don't have to spend my days spouting pyschobabble."

"Its not like FOTY is going to hand you a check for the difference."

What does FOTY stand for?

ima,

Why do you think it is strange that I am supporting 4 of my six kids? As you know, two of them have graduated from college already.

I think it is funny that when I happen to agree with a stepmother (in this case oh_my) because you can't find anything to complain about in my post, you go off on a tangent...

And doing what is necessary to receive court ordered child support is very different from spending the money to hire a lawyer to seek a modification. For one thing, the child support enforcement agency will help with the former (albeit often very slowly). They will not help with the latter.

Although my post that you agreed with was intended to make you see how ridiculous I feel your ideas can be, I was pleasantly shocked to see you agree with me. I'll give you bonus points for consistency because apparently you don't always have to disagree with SMs.

However, just because BM's parents want to let her live rent free, my DH would never file for a reduction of the support he pays unless we had some kind of serious change of circumstance. We're not rich, but we're doing all right, we can afford the basics and a few extras, and someday maybe we'll save up to buy a big farmhouse of our own...and who knows, maybe someday BM's dad will get tired of his children's needy ways and tell them to take care of themselves, then she wouldn't have the luxury anymore.

Our state doesn't take housing arrangements into consideration anyway, unless your military and housing is included in your compensation. It's strictly combine the two incomes, look at the chart for the support amount, and figure out, based on incomes, what percentage of support should come from each parent. Then the NCP pay his percent to the CP.

I find it really funny how KKNY and TOS both use the word albeit lately. KKNY used it on my sibling rivalry thread right around the time her fangs came out and she began drawing blood! TOS just used it on here.

Sometimes I really wonder who is who on this forum. I Have always thought KKNY and TOS jump in to defend eachother too quickly...and then finedreams began posting and adding to it.....

I wonder how many log-ins a person can have?

I also notice that TOS and KKNY often post within minutes of eachother. Perfect...post your ideas and then post them again as a supporter a few minutes later! Is there a multipersonality cyberbully cawfe?

Also, the one time I called the Child Support Enforcement Agency to have them help me find out why after a year of divorce my CS had not yet started, they told me that I had to figure out ex's address first, on my own, or they could do nothing until he owed in excess of so many thousands of dollars, then they could issue a warrant for his arrest and hang up a "wanted" poster of him.

And both when I moved and got married and changed my last name, I called child support to inform them, as you're supposed to, and both times they asked me if I knew where ex lived or had a contact number for him. Both times the answer was no.

I don't know about elsewhere, but in my state CSEA is swamped, and there's not much they'll do to help.

According to the CSEA's web site in my state, they are supposed to be very helpful - I don't know if that is true.

I did see an article in the paper awhile back about some guy who was deported from another country to the U.S. because he owed something like half a million in child support.

Mom2emall,

You posted an interesting theory about the two possibly being the same person. I sometimes wonder.

Whatever the case may be, I think that KKNY should give TOS 1/2 of her money.

late night giggles .... you'd think since they are such great pals .... she would offer to pay the attorney fees to help out another scorned woman.

mom_of_4, Sorry, I didn't mean to take your thread on a side track.

In response to the original post, I find it silly that today, so much thought goes into what kids can or can't do. My personal opinion is that kids today are so much more 'street' mature than my generation. (meaning they know about sex & drugs & things like that) and they are more technologically advanced than us for obvious reasons, but they are also the laziest, most spoiled generation yet.

Now, I know it was a different time, but my Grandfather left home when he was 11. It was the 1920's and his mother was, well let's say she entertained sailors. He didn't have a father, but he had several step fathers in his life. When he was 11, out in the world he went, sweeping for store owners or washing dishes in restaurants to make his way in the world. I can't imagine ANY 11 year old today, even getting a job, although like you said, when I was that age, it wasn't unusual to have a babysitting job or boys that age usually mow lawns or wash cars. Not so much anymore.

And from the time my mom was nine, her parents would get her up (during the summer time) at 4am and drive out to the fields in the Central Valley of CA. They picked cotton and produce. This was in the 1950's. Yes, it was a different time as well and there were no child labor laws, or if there were, they broke them. All the children worked and the youngest child stayed home and cooked/cleaned.

When I was a child, in the 1970's, I got my first babysitting job when I was about nine. When I was thirteen, I started working in the fields. The only reason I think I got away with it, and I really don't know if it was legal, but I had two uncles that were farmers and I worked in their fields, picking & packing bell peppers. I did that every summer until I was old enough to get a 'real' job.

Today, my SD is about to turn 9. She won't get dressed until someone tells her what to wear and that it's time to get dressed. She has to be told what to do, how to do it, etc. One day, I told her 'go play outside for a while.' and she asked me 'what do you want me to do?'. I told her that there are six acres, she has a bike, a scooter, frisbee, there is a creek w/blackberries, a barn with a loft, there are tons of things to do outside. She had no idea how to 'go play'. To this day, she just wants to play video games or watch movies in her room. The funny part is that she talks about all the outdoor stuff she does at her moms house, it really is strange. Her mom also says she gets herself dressed there, she's told us she fixes food there, and it sounds like a totally different child. Strange.

That's funny Ima because my SC don't have a clue how to "entertain" themselves. We have a tote on the back porch filled with outdoor toys hasn't been touched since Sept. SS12's bike has been in the same place he left 2 weeks ago its going to be rusted by summer. Half the island is a bird sanctuary with walking trails go explore list of excuses a mile long .... even I have homework!!! :)

I'm bored ... go twiddle your thumbs ... find something to do that isn't destructive ... what does that mean .... think if I do this will I get in trouble? if the answer is yes then don't do it.

My SD was giving me a very hard time every morning .... bus comes at 8:15 she wouldn't get out of bed til 8:10 ... I had hubby start getting her up when he leaves for work at 6:30 she would still be lounging around at 8:00am .... I went in every 10 minutes at 7:40 said I will not be in here again if you do not get up and get ready you will need to call your mom or dad for a ride to school because I will not. At 8:13 handed her the phone to call her parents and I left with SS10 and SD9 had to "walk" the 3 houses to the bus stop by herself. She missed the bus on the first stop had to run to the next bus stop 1 block away.

The next morning I put an alarm clock in her room I do not shut it off I go in and call her name and tell her to get up and shut it off. Its across the room.

lol, I gave my SD an alarm clock last year. We set it and she does get up to turn it off. She then sits on the bed until someone comes into the room and tells her to get dressed. 'what do you want me to wear?' UGHHH. (She has a morning routine, but has to be reminded constantly what to do next or she'll just sit back down on her bed.)

I finally got DH to stop putting her lunch in her backpack. It's just one baby step in pushing her to do things for herself. If she 'forgets' to put it in her bag, she goes hungry. I also started feeding her breakfast last because she drags her feet so much, and food seems to be a motivator for her. She'll get ready faster now that she might not get to eat if she takes/wastes her time. Missing the bus isn't an option for her, the bus comes at 7:35 so she has to go out there at 7:30, ready or not.

They hate the "nagging" but won't do anything to stop it .... if I didn't have to repeat the same thing every morning maybe I would have more patience for a boobs and periods discussion at 8 am. On my bad days with her I just want to make a recording ...

When they are eating breakfast I get ready to bring them brush my hair and teeth:) by the time I am done SD is done eating ( the dog eats her breakfast more than she does)

We live in Mass ... 3 out 5 days a week she wants to wear a dress ... check the temp higher or lower than 32? higher ok go find your tights ... stands in the hallway for a half hour "looking" for them. Ends up putting on jeans. :)

I find this so strange, children that can't get up and get dressed themselves.

My oldest daughter has been getting up on her own, getting dressed, eating breakfast, checking the calendar to see if she wants to pack or buy that day, and then making her own lunch since first grade. I do help her pick her clothes out the night before because she'll wear the same couple of outfits all the time if I don't encourage her to mix it up a little, and I check her lunch to make sure it's not just cookies and chips because she has tried to do that a couple of times...but she NEVER remembers to brush her teeth without being told...I think she's doing well enough that I can let that one slide for now.

My SD will get up and gets dressed and eats, but if her head wasn't screwed on, she'd leave it behind when she left. We're talking, "Do you got your backpack? Did you put your homework in it? Do you have your gym clothes? Got your lunch?" We'll have her pack everything up the night before and put it right next to the door, but inevitably she always leaves somthing sitting right there by the door when she leaves...but we NEVER have to remind her to brush her teeth or wash her hands. She's seriously into the cleanliness thing when it comes to her body, so that's good. Oh, and I think she probably could pack her own lunch, but DH does it for her because he knows her mom does and that's what she's used to.

My 4yo WANTS to do it all herself, even the stuff I don't want her to do, like pour milk into her cereal from a full gallon. She picks out her own clothes and dresses herself, but I have to tell her to go get dressed or she'll stay in jammies all day, but that's okay because I like to do that sometimes too:) She insists she can bathe herself, which she can, but she also thinks she can wash her own hair, which she can if you like to still have a bunch of soap in it when you're done. And she absolutely hates it when I brush her teeth for her, but I just don't think she's physically capable of doing it to my satisfaction yet.

They're all different, so you can't treat them the same. Just got to go one step at a time with each one of them.

DD was always disorganized. She did things herself but she would constantly forget everything and never knows where everything is. That's who she is. When she was going to come home for Christmas break she managed to not hear her alarm, so she woke up at the time when she was supposed to be already in airport! So she ran outside without anything and arrived across the ocean with only her passport and cell phone, literally nothing else. When I saw her in airport my reaction was: where is your stuff? Oh I overslept and had no time so I just ran without my stuff.

While here for 2 weeks she lost her cell phone and had to buy a new one when she went back lol Then after two weeks here she went back to college and in her first phone call she said: mom I forgot X,Y,Z at home can you send it to me. Then she went to visit her dad in February for a week and forgot X,Y,Z there too.

Story of her life.

OMG Fine, you could be talking about my SD. Her best friend and BF's mom (who is a close friend of mine) joke with she and I all the time that they make bets when SD comes over as to how many things she will leave. The have it almost to a science - for about every 2 hours she is there she leaves 1 thing! :-) Just today she was talking to me on her cell while walking to school and said "brrr, it's cold. . . . OH! I forgot my coat!!" We have to do the same checklist each day, but we have let her know that the forgetfulness she jokes about is costing her privileges as she gets older - if she can't remember her coat how can we know she'll remember not to get in a car with a friend who has been drinking? How can we know she'll remember where we said she could go and where we said she couldn't? She gets the point, and I can tell she is working on it by the little lists she makes each night for the next morning. Works for me!!

justnotmartha,

I don't think that forgetting your stuff is necessarily the same as forgetting rules, etc., or having bad judgment. My youngest daughter leaves stuff behind all the time, in part, or possibly almost entirely, related to her learning disability. Sometimes it is a processing problem - it takes her a while to react to sensations (like the example you gave with the coat - it takes a while to realize that she is cold). My daughter drops things and doesn't realize they are no longer in her hand. When she was younger she was undersensitive to pain - she fell and hit her head on the sidewalk once, and initially said she was fine. Quite a few seconds later she said, "no, I'm not fine," which she clearly wasn't, as she developed a sizable lump and her head was bleeding.

On the other hand, she rarely forgets rules or what I have told her to do (as long as I make sure she heard and processed it, by having her repeat it back to me). Once when I was leaving the house as she was about to look up something for school on the Internet, she said, "But I am not allowed to be on the Internet when you are not here." I am glad one of us remembered (although since all she was doing was research for school, that really was ok).

Ima,

I assume you have tried the lets put clothing out the night before routine (after first checking weather report).

My DD is not a morning person (evidently there is some scientific evidence that teenagers are on a later internal clock). She uses the two alarm clock system. One is by her bed, and she can hit the snooze a couple of times. The other is on her dresser, set for the absolutely latest time to get up (she has to get out of bed to turn it off).

once visiting her dad DD (then maybe 16, 17) went on a beach with him, then when getting back to the car she put her feet outside cleaning them so to not bring sand in. Then they drove to the store, and when X told her to go to with him to the grocery store she looked around: where are my shoes? she left her shoes by the car while cleaning her feet. lol it was too far to go back so they ended up going to the store bare feet and then buying new shoes. X couldn't get over it: how do you forget shoes?

Funny thing DD is responsible but her forgetting stuff is unbelivable.

Fine - that made me laugh as I can so totally relate!

TOS - a year or two ago I would have agreed - stuff and rules are separate things. But once she entered middle school and the "stakes" got higher being "forgetful" became a convenient excuse for forgetting the rules. "Oh, I forgot I have to get my homework done before I can check my email" (though it's been like that since she got email) and the like. We have found that we have to give a low tolerance to the forgetfulness or it is abused.

I think these kids are all related to my X. He put his umbrella on top of car as he was getting in,and then just drove off. Thank god not his briefcase. He left credit cards at restaurants and stores. Guess who had to call to get it back??? And yet, he has always held responsible job.

Oh God you just reminded me - my mother set a pair of shoes on top of her car and drove off. My DH teases her constantly about it - any time he sees a pair of shoes on the road he takes a picture and emails it to her. He even designed a shoe holder/roof rack for her for Christmas. :-)

ha, you guys could be talking about me (only i am 39, not 9 or 19).

I have left my purse in more restaurants that I could count, even if i could remember. I don't carry handbags because shoulder bags are more likely to remain attached to my body, but it is not foolproof especially when you sit down to eat.

I was arrested once for, basically, procrastination and forgetfullnes... I failed to renew my car registration, got a ticket for expired plates, stuck the ticket in my glove box and forgot about it didn't pay or show up for court, got a warrant issued for failure to appear...

I flew to puerto rico got there with luggage and passport but no wallet-- no cash, credit cards or atm cards luckily i was meeting a friend who could loan me money for the trip.

I keep a window to my house unlocked so to facilitate breaking in when I lock myself out (tried the hide the key outside thing but kept losing the key). This happens at least 4 or 5 times a year.

Back in the day before automated everything on a car, carried jumper cables so i could start my car when I left the lights on and the battery died. yes this happened often enough it was a necessity.

yes, have driven off with things (usually but not always the gas cap) lying on the car.

make it to the gym start changing only to find no socks or no sports bra.

yes have more than once walked off left my credit card with the cashier.

no i don't do any of this on purpose. yes i hold down a responsible job. yes i really do try to do better, but mostly trying to figure out ways to work around myself works better than trying to make myself remember things I'm just not going to remember. Automated bill paying and cars that yell at you when you leave the lights on are an absolute godsend. Unlocked window and leaving house keys with friends. No handbags and friends who ask me if I have my purse before leaving places. Keep two credit cards separate places, stash cash in my glove box so i can pay for stuff if my wallet is in my living room. Driver's license and passport keep separate places so when one gets lost i might have the other. etc.