Need ideas on softening echo in kitchen
13 years ago
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- 13 years ago
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Need advice on water softener purchase
Comments (5)Water softener 101 ... Since you're on a water system the water utility can supply you with the specs of the water AS IT LEAVES their facility but that is not necessarily representative of the water conditions at your water meter. Hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local water treatment pros. Make sure you call at least one of the big dogs like Kinetico or Culligan for comparison and at least a couple independent pros. Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated. Ask lots of questions. Softening the entire house or just the water heater (IMO a bad idea)? Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale. After they've gone use your water test to compare with theirs. Are all your treatment needs being addressed? Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid. Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware components with the costs and we'll give you our opinions....See MoreSeveral water problems-softener help needed
Comments (6)1. If you have high Total Dissolved Solids and sediment, then you should be filtering AHEAD of the water softener. The cleaner the water coming into the softener, the less trouble you'll have with nuisance failures like plugged injectors. 2. If your water is really crappy, eg. you can see the dissolved solids, you really should look at a backwashing filter. The benefits are no real reduction in pressure and gpm flow and because the filter (about the size of a softener) automatically backwashers, there are no cartidges to replace, which you will be doing often. 3. You make reference to a $500 fleck. Do you know if it has enough capacity based on hardness vs usage vs # of people in the house? Is it demand based or timer based regeneration? If buying direct are you prepared to ship the thing to the mfg and duke it out with them if it fails? A good rule of thumb when dealing with installed anything to do with your house is take the cost of the goods and double it at minimum. The company installing has to make a profit, deal with warranty, cover overhead......The company in the link I included deals with softeners, filters, everything and the pricing will give you an idea of what decent equipment on it's own is worth. But it's worth nothing to you if it's not installed competently. 4. At 2k installed for a decent softener with warranty through the installer -- it's their baby if something goes wrong, you're not getting robbed. Can you shop it around with smaller independent plumbing contractors? Sure but make sure you can get references and feel comfortable doing business with whomever you choose, that may be worth a few hundred. 5. If you are going to go through the trouble of filtering and softening your well water, you will be a couple of hundred dollars away from not having to rely on bottled water. I mentioned Reverse Osmosis for drinking, it is cheaper in the long run vs paying for bottled and it tastes neutral. Note that the only contaminant that RO can't deal with is hydrogen sulphide (you know it if you have it, your water smells like rotten eggs). Removing hydrogen sulphide is another 2k or so. 6. Before taking the plunge with anyone, you may want to have your water tested thoroughly by an independent lab to see what contaminants are present and see what they recommend for treatment based on your intended usage. Their services aren't free. The cost here for a thorough analysis is about $80. Iron, Hardness, Sediment, TDS is a good starting point if you're not drinking it. 7. Research as much as you can, google google and more google. We moved to the country back in april and had to deal with all of this, minus sediment in the water (I'm lucky, my well starts at 130' and goes down another 30' in fractured bedrock). Being uninformed about rotten egg smell, we almost pulled the trigger on 2k worth of oxidizing and filtering equipment. Turns out that 2/3 of a gallon of chlorox killed the harmless bacteria that was the cause of the smell. -But- The water conditioning pros won't tell you that because they want to sell equipment. Hope my late night rambling helps. Here is a link that might be useful: backwashing filter...See MoreNeed recommendation on water softener
Comments (22)Some clarification on how various types of softeners work. 1. Big box brands are two tank type softeners with the resin tank inside the salt tank called a cabinet model. They can have a day timer or a metered/demand regenerated control valve. Day timer use is very rare. Meters can be mechanical or electronic. 2. Two tank models with separated resin and salt tanks are the 'norm'. 3. Twin tank alternating immediate regenerated, normally with water flow through only one resin tank at a time although their are twin tank softeners that allow water to the house through both tanks at the same time until a tank has to be regenerated. Clack and Kinetico make them but there is a large difference. The Clack has either upflow or downflow regeneration and a control valve on each tank where Kinetico has only one. Clack does not leave full main line water pressure on the brine line and float in the brine tank as Kinetico does. You can change all the settings on an Autotrol, Clack or Fleck where Kinetico does not allow the owner to do that without getting different parts and taking the control valve apart. 4. The vast majority of softeners today regenerate automatically but there are manual type control valves and they can be used on any style of two tank type softener but not on twin tank types. Since they are not automatic, the control valve has no metered or day timer and they do not need electric power. 5. The vast majority of NSF and WQA testing is done for marketing purposes by those companies submitting their products for testing. Rarely is equipment used in commercial installations certified and... that is the same (Autotrol, Clack, Erie and Fleck control valve) equipment most independent dealers sell their residential customers. 6. All types of softeners have advantages and disadvantages but mostly they are unimportant and used mostly in marketing and sales hype. 7. All softeners can use various types of cation resins and either sodium chloride softener salt or potassium chloride salt substitute. 8. Many two tank type softeners can be upflow/countercurrent brined and regenerated with softened water brine refill. 9. Many softeners have variable reserve and some have variable brining. Variable usually uses more total salt and water than regular brined softeners. 10. The capacity of ALL types of softeners is dictated by a salt dose setting in a given volume and type of resin. The volume of resin dictates the size of the softener in cubic feet and the size of the resin tank. The size of the resin tank dictates the model of control valve that can be used to service that size tank when used for a softener or backwashed only or regenerated filter. 11. The salt efficiency of a softener is found by dividing the pounds of salt per regeneration into the capacity in K grains. The capacity is established by the number of days or gallons of water used between regenerations and then the salt dose required to create that capacity in that volume and type of resin. I.E. the Fleck 5600 can not be used for a softener on larger than a 12" diameter tank (see the Fleck 5600 spec sheet). Ten inch for a filter. 12. Upflow counter-current regenerated types are not more efficient than downflow co-current types if the same type and volume of resin is used. Counter-current can resist hardness breakthrough longer than co-current regeneration but, normally you would not run a residential softener close enough to bed exhaustion to make a difference; except in twin tank types softeners due to them having little to no reserve capacity when they regenerate but... They use softened water to regenerate each tank and that uses salt to create the capacity used for each regeneration. Unless packed bed design (no free board) upflow counter current regeneration uses the same amount of water and takes the same length of time to regenerate the same type and volume of resin in the other types of softeners regardless if day timer, metered, variable reserve or variable brined OR NOT. 13. The vast majority of people needing a softener do not need a twin tank type softener. Those that do, have water being used 24/7 when once a week or so another type softener would regenerate, usually at 2:00 AM for an hour and 15-30 minutes. When all twin tank type softeners regenerate, the household shares water flow and pressure with the tank that is being regenerated. That reduces the service flow rating (SFR) gpm of the softener by at least half. That increases the probably of hardness getting through the softener to the fixtures and water heater etc.. 14. The number of gallons used to size and program a two tank type softener varies from 50-125 gals/person/day based on how the company or dealer determines the reserve capacity figure. Variable reserve type control valves allow the computer to do the calculation. In ALL instances the figure is the result of a math calculation. Twin tank types calculate the total water in gallons between regenerations AND ADD the number of gallons (the capacity) used to regenerate each tank AND they must prevent the resin from allowing hardness through before regeneration so they don't use all the capacity (as some salespeople claim) before a regeneration. Math will prove that. 15. A reserve capacity is used so that if more water is used than 'normal' the softener won't run out of capacity before the next regeneration. It's like stopping for gas before the engine starts to sputter or actually stops. You don't waste or throw away the gas left in the tank when you buy more before the gauge gets too low... 16. It is vary rare to run a two tank type softener out of capacity, even when overnight guests drop in. 17. Variable brining causes the softener to regenerate more often, that uses more water (and sewer) than the same softener would if not using variable brining. Using less salt and water per regeneration sounds great, until you add up the total number of regenerations and see that the softener is using more salt and water than the same two tank type would use with just one regeneration every 7-9 days. And math doesn't lie. 18. Many times a softener using 1.8 lbs of salt but regenerating like 2-3 times a day, will use more total salt and water than a softener sized for one regeneration on an average of every 8 days. I.E 1.8 lbs and 35 gallons each regeneration, how many regenerations per 7-9 days times those figures is the only true comparison. 19. A two tank type softener does not run out of capacity because Xxx gallons were run thought it while 400 gallons per day was used in the calculations. Demand/metered softener control valves measure the 'extra' water use and then regenerate when needed regardless of how many people are there. If the meter runs down to zero gals remaining, you run on the reserve capacity until the next regeneration. Dont let the actions of a few discourage you from seeking more help or advice. I hope this helps. A Google search shows that in the last ten years plus I have roughly 15000 posts like this between Google Groups and on web site forums. You'll have to decide if I'm over the top as Aliceinwonderland says. BTW Aliceinwonderland, in your opinion with you having little to no sales experience but obviously an ox having been gored somewhere, presumingly by me, would you care to compare what you think is the best control valve to a Clack WS-1? If so I'd be glad to join you in a new thread....See MoreUpdating kitchen / decorating ideas needed!
Comments (16)Thank you all for your feedback! I am going to try some ideas for the area to the right of the sink and see what works. With regard to the island, we are planning to add some trim detail and paint it. However, I'm not sure what color to paint it yet. Additionally, I was worried the kitchen might start to look chopped up if we paint the island a lighter color - considering we have two other large runs of cabinetry in the dark cherry/mahogany stain. (double oven wall / coffee bar area plus the wine/ China / hutch area). Any thoughts on painting the island a lighter color?...See MoreRelated Professionals
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