You are running tight enough that I think you need to get some accurate measurements to work with before going too far. You may find you don't have enough room to open your fridge.

Igloos probably already working on this, but in a tiny NYC apartment, if you can only have 24" deep on that one wall. I'd be looking at something like a 27" fridge, 30" range, 18" DW , 24" sink (get an apron front and max the size of the bowl), and a 15" drawer stack. I know you can get a 24" range, but that just doesn't seem very workable to me. You can also get a 30" fridge and have a lot more options, probably with less cost -- but you have to measure your walls top, bottom and middle, front and back of the space too, so you find the narrowest part of your walls. That's the measurement you will be restricted by.

ok i'm going to go back to work and hopefully by the end of the weekend we'll have this kitchen hammered out. i had to quit last night because the pills were making me and your kitchen fuzzy lol

you're going to spend a small chunk of those dollars ($50k) on two important appliances that will be the making of your kitchen. one is a counter debth fridge...you have to do this! go without a toilet in the bath if you must...but it has to be counter debth! i'm also trying to work in a french range....smaller....cooler....more function!

i didn't note the change, but i did change those 19's to 21's (lower) and did 12" uppers on that wall. on the other wall they're 24.

but i have ideas :) so let me get back at it! keep throwing out ideas of your own! afterall...i suppose i don't get to make the final decisions lol

oh then we'll do the bath lol is it involving much construction? or just gut and replace as is?

While i-chic is addressing the larger questions (and do listen to her, she's a wizard even without the drugs), I will weigh in on the original question even though the massive redesign may moot it all.

First, I didn't know you could get a DW in 18" but I assume that if you've posted here, you already know you can.

I vote with the larger sink and smaller DW. A DW is a convenience (even though it's become a necessity) and a sink is a necessity; people got by without DWs and only sinks for a long time, but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone going without a sink and only a DW. You can do more stuff in a larger sink (fill it with ice and put the wine there; beat candy; soak dishes before they go into the DW), while a DW has only one function; in a tiny kitchen multi-functional areas are better than single-function ones.

And even though you didn't ask, you do need a counter depth fridge. My starter house had a tiny galley kitchen and the protrusion of a regular fridge got really annoying. And do invest in one stunning, drop dead gorgeous, NY-chic noticeable item -- range, granite, lighting fixture, whatever. One of the most beautiful kitchens on the FKB (IMO) is a tiny condo kitchen with black glossy cabinets and the most drop dead gorgeous blue bahia granite countertop & backsplash (organicdonna's, I think). Come to think of it, you could spend $10K on the range or granite but it would be hard to spend more than $2K? on lighting fixtures, and they are actually a very noticeable part of any room.

Or you could just call Christopher Peacock :)

this is coming out soooo well!!!! i'm having a blast LOL

I could only fit an 18" dishwasher in my old kitchen. When I renovated, I decided to keep the 18" and get a 36" mega sink. The dishwasher runs twice a week, mostly with cups and glasses and it's sooo much easier to unload!!!! If I entertain, it's usually empty to start and I've never had a problem running out of room. My house is small so I don't entertain too many at a time. I use the sink anytime I go into the kitchen. I'm usually doing plants, paint, soaking a blouse....... The dishwasher just helps me get the coffee cup out of the way.

I would definitely go with you cabinet person's suggestion of putting a cabinet in front of the heating pipe. That cabinet could be a pullout for spices/oils, or a simple cabinet for trays/cookie sheets (then you can even have a drawer up top for things like oven mitts and/or spoons/spatulas). Also, just the benefit of having that small amount of landing space for your bowl of pancake batter, etc, is great. We have our range on a short wall with just 9" on either side, and having those 9" is so much better than before when there was nothing.

Also, keep shopping around for sinks, because you may find one that maximizes the use of a 24" cabinet and lets you get your 24" DW.

Finally, I would agree with lascatx in minimizing the fridge. If you're in NYC, you can get groceries so readily :) Keeping the fridge small may also help it not overtake the room!

I do agree that at least a counter depth fridge would be important in a small galley -- especially if it is near the entrance to the kitchen. That will make everyting feel so much larger and open. You'll have to think of the price difference in terms of buying space and function (opening up a traffic path) instead of just a cold box. It's the near equivalent of moving a wall. Also, it may be something that stays in your apartment when you sell and adds value for resale.

I just saw igloochic's not about changing the shallow cabinets to 21s. That will be 22" with a countertop, ut the 21's are a standard vanity depth. I suspect that changing 19 to either 18 or 21 will save you some money in terms of being standard depth -- maybe that will offset your shallow fridge being a bit more. I also like the idea of making the uppers shallower and creating a more usable workspace.

OK, I didn't read every word in this thread so sorry if it's been said.

First, it's a 1 br apt so either size dw will be acceptable. I think you'll be fine with an 18" but I don't think you're limited to your current sink size if you go for 24" dw.

I have an Elkay model 2115 undermount stainless sink, 21" wide, 15" front to back that I'm sure will fit in a 24" sink base. The sides of the cabinet will have to be routered down for the thickness of the sink flange. I did this with my prep sink and it's fine. That is a very common size NYC sink and functions well.

I would go for a 24" stove as a max size. I would also go for a narrow fridge that is as shallow as possible. In NYC, both those choices would be perfectly acceptable.

I like your original plan and would do 24" stove, (24" or 18") dishwasher, 24" sink base, 15" drawer base, 24" fridge. Any leftover space would go to a larger drawer base.

I like your shallow cabs on the other side. It will be plenty of room for prep.

Construction costs are very high in NYC. I found that higher end appliances added a very small percentage to the cost of the kitchen compared to standard appliances. If you can't do 24" Liebherr fridge and Viking range, I think it's LG that makes a narrow fridge with freezer drawer on the bottom for a reasonable price.

lascatx, I agree that I definitely need accurate measurements - an inch here is the difference between the 24" d/w even being an option or not. Actually, with that little tolerance for error, I worry that even the "professional measurers" might get it even slightly wrong, and suddenly all these thousands of dollars worth of cabinets and appliances I'll have purchased won't shove into place.

My fridge is narrow, btw - it's 28". It's great though - it's 66" high and holds 18.2 cu ft of space - plenty for my needs! I'd love a wider fridge just cause there are more options for cool things like in-door ice dispensers and such, but it ain't gonna happen here. Yes, it does stick out a lot, but that's common in apartment kitchens, and the problem with a counterdepth refrigerator is that they're *wide*! 33 or 36 inches - certainly not on the wall with the sink, stove, and dishwasher.

So i-chic - I looked again at the other wall - would it make sense to put a counter-depth fridge there. It would be fabulous in terms of giving me counter space on both sides of the kitchen - wow, next to the sink AND next to the stove AND next to the fridge - untold luxury! BUT - I really think having 24" deep base cabs on both side would make the walkway too cramped and the room look too small. I really do. Big heaving sigh. (Besides - no toilet in the bathroom?? I only have one bathroom! And I'm a girl so I can't pee out the window...)

Huh, lascatx again - so you'd do the 24" sink base even with the 18" dishwasher? Wow - that's an interesting take. The couple of cabinet designers I've talked to who suggested the 18" d/w always put a 27" sink base with it, and then a 9" cabinet on the other side of the stove. This would let me do a 12" cabinet - can't decide if that's shifting space from where it might be more useful to me (next to the sink) to where it would be less useful to me (next to the stove). But it's something interesting to think about.

Can you really get a 21" sink into a 24" sink base? I'd prefer not to have to trim the sides of the cabinet since it'll be supporting the weight of a stone countertop. The designer at Lowe's terrified me by saying she prefers to have 3" (3"!) of cabinet side support for a stone countertop - she was putting extra support panels next to the sink and dishwasher. (I know I'd need something next to the dishwasher.) Then she said you could probably get away with 1-1/2". Well, the cabinet side is only 3/4" thick... ???

Regarding the cost of 18" base cabs instead of 19" - the cabinet place told me it's the same price. I think they don't actually have 18" cabs, so they have to customize in either case, and it doesn't matter to the cost whether they do 18 or 19.

bluekitobsessed - the drop dead gorgeous item will be the countertops. Either granite or quartz... there's a great Silestone color called Sierra Madre that ties in all the colors I want - it's a dark brown with lighter tan and off-white "stones" in it. It would actually work with the white fridge. I'm not sure what granite color would tie everything together that way - I would want a darker color granite to contrast with the light maple cabinets. (And I understand the darker granites are less porous than the lighter ones...)

$2k on lighting fixtures??!!! (gasp) I'm looking at a single overhead light from Home Depot for around $50!

Thanks again to everyone who's weighing in here! Even if I haven't addressed your comments directly in this already overly-long email, I AM READING THEM, and they are all incredibly helpful!!!

don't give up on me yet :) i'm still working on it! (it's 3:34 here and ideas were keeping me up lol)

i'm doing specific research on price points as i go through size issues on the design which takes time! and let's hold off on the silly cabinet and home despot folks until later this week? i'm being creative and innovative...and i'll suprise you with these ideas if i can get them drawn out lol (one hand is slow). yesterday i kind of hit the wall about 2 pm and had to go to bed lol what a slug a bug kd i am!

so you have a fridge i have to work in? i need exact dimensions pretty please :)

with a 21 and 24 base set up, we're leaving 36" ofter overhang for isle space. it won't feel cramped i promise! yes its a one cook kitchen...but it was never not going to be giv its seze to start with. 24 on each side is too much! i agree with you there.

i'm putting the fridge on the range wall, we'll keep the two deep items together. my concern with keeping the existing fridge would be that the handles stick out past the door...

by the way...were moving the sink to the opposite wall....gasp shock and horror!!! you got a problem with that? :oP and you'll get a large bowl :) i'm just having a few issues with the dw there...

what is the opposite wall facing? whats it made of? can we play with a passthrough opening over the sink???
if i can keep you under budget elsewhere...would you consider changing out the fridge?

I saw the layout drawing you posted for the other side and thought the cleanup area there would be great -- don't know how much leeway you have on moving plumbing in an NYC apt. It's not the same as a single family home, and I have heard many stories of being stuck with so many factors.

However, if you can move it, the 21" depth is a factor for sink and DW depth. You can use a wall mount faucet and work with the sink, but I'm not sure you can overcome the DW depth. I suspect that's what igloochic is still working on.

There are smaller counterdepth fridges --- look here

http://www.ajmadison.com/b.php/Counter+Depth;26%22+-+28.9%22;Refrigerators/N~26+774+4294966346

and http://www.eurostoves.com/cgi-bin/store/pid_633.htm

lascatx is giving away all my secrets :) yes i want a wall mount faucet, which i have over a lovely farm sink. i havw also found a dw that is only 22 deep (sorry its 18")

can i move the plumbing to that wall? we could work with that area in the ceiling as well as exposed pipes if necessary.....what do you think?

also...what other appliances do we need? micro??? and how do you eat/entertain? after a party whats on the counters? for us its dozens of wine glasses so i'd want a special area for that...but what about you charlikin???

Sorry if I'm blowing a surprise, but I'd hate to have a miracle fizzle if something can't move. I'm impressed that you found a 22" deep DW. That could really make a big difference. Being able to move just one thing off that wall would really be a big improvement.

If the plumbing can't be moved, we'll have to work on convincing her to go to a built-in or euro counter depth (true 24" deep) fridge. You wouldn't have a counter overhang there and you'd only be looking at an inch or so difference. Might even be able to turn the studs and gain an inch in the walls there -- if they are studs. If they are steel, forget that. LOL I keep trying to work with the construction I know too.

Jude, a 21" sink would be incredibly spacious to me. But I do want a full size stove - even though I don't do a lot of cooking, the 24" stoves just never look right to me. Ditto with the fridge - that is, I have a 28" now, an 18.2 cu ft GE, and I love it. Well, it's noisy actually, I don't *love* it, but I love the size. I guess it'll be easier for me to cope with a baby dishwasher (since I've never had *any* d/w) than to step down to a baby fridge or stove.

I-chic - first off, I hope you're getting some rest and not spending all your time obsessing about my kitchen! It's bad enough *I* spend all my time obsessing about my kitchen! ;-) Not that I'm not *deeply* appreciative (I am!!!), but you need to let your poor arm rest and recover!!!

I love your creativity, and I don't want to do anything to damper it. OTOH, I don't want you to go chasing down rainbows that just can't exist in the real world. Which means - the plumbing ain't moving. (Lascatx, you nailed it!) The sink and gas lines have to stay where they are - even if it were possible physically to move them (I have no idea whether it is or it isn't), there's no way my coop board would approve that kind of change. The only thing that could *possibly* move from that wall is the fridge...

And yes, you might be able to convince me to replace the fridge. (I'm listening to it hum away right now.) Not sure still about the depth of the counter-depth ones on that opposite wall (it seems they're *still* 29" deep not counting the handles), but if I did get one, I'd probably want a bottom-freezer model rather than a side-by-side (I don't use that much frozen food). For whatever that's worth.

If the counterdepth doesn't work out, I've actually started considering (oh, you're going to hate this!) replacing my 28" fridge with a more standard 29-1/2" model, just because there would be more choices in the future when it needed to be replaced. (Bad enough there are so few choices of 18" d/w!) Of course, this would be a standard-depth model to go on that already-crowded sink wall. If I'm going 18" d/w, this seems like a possible good use of a couple of those recovered inches. Feel free to talk me out of it. :-)

In any case, current fridge is 28" wide by 66" high, and about 31" deep including door handle. If I keep the 28" width, I'm thinking I should allow for 68" height in case I replace it with a Whirlpool some day.

I'm having the contractor remove an old door frame from my kitchen entrance (still has one of the hinges!) - I wonder if he could also move the entrance over a couple of inches? There's electricity on the right entrance wall, so it might not be as simple as it seems. (My very conservative building super doesn't even want me to remove the door frame because of the electric wall!)

Oh, regarding a pass-through - nope. The opposite side of that wall is the living room, and a media center goes there. :-) (My next project after finishing the k&b is to completely redecorate the living room!!!)

Microwave - going for OTR. Was originally thinking of getting a countertop microwave on a shelf, but decided I'd rather have the cabinet space. Don't do a lot of cooking, so I'm just not going to worry about the venting issues (I can't vent to the outside).

Entertaining - yes, probably lots of wine glasses! (Can you put wine glasses in a d/w?) And unless it's a small dinner party, it's paper plates.

Lascatx - true 24" deep fridge? Really??? They make such things?????

Yes, indeed! I have read about some of these here and have been checking out the idea for my laundry room. The built-ins are all 24" deep, of coursse, and a lot more expensive. However, there are also some freestanding units. Check these out --

Liebherr that comes in 24" or 30" width
http://www.eurostoves.com/cgi-bin/store/pid_633.htm

Look at the Bloomberg and Summit ones here
http://www.ajmadison.com/b.php/Refrigerators/N~26+774

ok my dear...get off the ledge...theres no reason to jump!

wait thats me i'm talking to...

ok you have to be frank with me! first is this a trick to drive me nuts? lol or do you really want a cool kitchen in there? and if you do....you've got to tell me....do you want a cool kitchen that will be tiny but incredible? or do you just want to throw some crap in there and call it a day?

i'm working on keeping to a tight budget...but you can go somewhere besides home despot for supplies :) i've given you a gorgeous range and sink...so you have some bling, but we've got to be flexible on something if you won't let me move pipes lol!

i've been in bed too much today, but i'll get back on it. i'm afraid all the drugs were getting to me....i'd make a terrible addict heh heh

i'm getting you a nice microwave too....small, but not "hair raising" otr!!! stop that!

Not everything is as expensive as you are making it sound - if you take your time and shop around, you can get lucky - when we moved in, we got a smaller fridge - counter depth from Sears Outlet, delivered oline that accepts panels for under $1000...pure luck as we had no idea what we were ordering, but it was online for a while - couple of months - even has a digital control panel with an ice maker in the door. Or, if you aren't going to replace the fridge but know the standard size will be xxx, just attach some trim with screws to hide the extra space and when you get your new fridge later, just unscrew the trim - easy solution to a budget crunch now. Several people have built bigger cabinets in case they want bigger in the future.

ok there it is!!!

igloochic - I'm so sorry if I'm driving you crazy! I don't mean to be . I do want the coolest, most beautiful and functional kitchen in the world... Please keep the ideas coming!

Big hug in appreciation for all your efforts!!!

Omg i-chic - I just saw your "kitchen-in-a-box" - it's wonderful! It's exactly what I need! Now I can reclaim some of my excess kitchen space for a formal dining room!!!

You should patent that. :-)

lmao...i thought the box kitchen was perfect....but dh wanted me to give upi a 72" lacanche and a cooler...so lets start with this compromise....

you lost your gorgeous range when you said no venting. i don't know however if we are doing gas or electric...but for this rendering you are getting a maytag 30" double oven, a 24" kitchenaide and a summit 24" deep fridge (79 high)

a gorgeous 24" farm sink as well :)

cabs on tye range side are 24's w 15's over them. i had some trouble with the backsplash on this program (because i've yet to take a lesson on how to use it lol) i've given you 19" between the lower and upper cabs aside from the sink piece which is higher for both function and astetics. you get quite a bit of storage in this design and i did take the cabs to the top....you need that for astetic reasons and honestly....theres room in the budget. this kitchen might be what sells your place some day...i think that these astetic issues are an important investment.

the othwe side is using a 24" deep fridge which i cozied up to that shallow broom closet. i'd do a panel on the open side of the fridge as well...but couldn't because i don't know how! i like opaque uppers to lighten the feel of the room. on this side they're 12" deep aside from the fridge and the two pantries.

i think i've given you quite a bit of counter space given the restrictions in place....but i can tweek more if necessary! i'll aslo post appliance pics tomorrow....but i have to get to bed again tonight,

The main concern I have about that arrangement is the fridge being right across from the range. I think the fridge is in the best spot, and the sink is better close tothe doorway than the range. It is going to be a one -- possibly 2 --person kitchen, so you can probably live with that. Make sure your fridge hinges on the left

You could put a plate rack above the sink -- those look neat abovea sink and if left open onthe bottom for drainage, can be used for drying. I'd probably put solid doors on that side and leave glass front in the uppers on the fridge side.

'm not sure about the tall cabinet on the right end of the fridge wall. I was thinking that could be a pullout, but then remembered that is only 21" deep. I'm not sure if you can do a pullout with 21" depth, but that would allow a great deal of food storage if you can. If not, I think I might take that out and make the uppers and lowers go all the way to the wall. I think something along this line is going to be your best use of space with the limitations you have.

I love it, Igloo! I was so curious to see what you were coming up with. Course, doesn't matter, not my kitchen.

Lascatx - How about a custom pullout, like the modified broom closets? There must be a way. As for access - I've got a pull-out broom closet, 24" deep, beside my 32"+ deep refrigerator. Unfortunately, access is from the refrigerator side. I can reach things in the first 12" just fine. The last 12" are more difficult, but with long-handled items it works out. Point is, there's a way. Just depends on how far a carpenter can get the thing to pull out.

las, the cabinet on the right of the fridge was put thgere for two reasons...first as a pull out, or even with full extension shelves, it gives massive storage. its also there for some balance. the fridge and the closet next to it (a shallow broom closet due to a pipe) are overwhelmibg on their own without the right side having a full sized cabibet. this still leaves 5' of workable counter space on that side. i'm assuming that were going with a better quality cabinet brand since i saved so much on appliances HINT HINT and i know that a 21" deep pull out was available in mine...but even if i don't get the cabinets of MY dreams in here lmao i do know we could get a tall pantry will full extensions in 21"

i also did think about the fridge range placement which is why i went with a two oven range (not pictured). first they're ideal for a use like this....no need to heat a huge oven for a smaller dinner, but secondly, because they have smaller doors. i did a radious check on those and thought i'd moved the door hinge on the fridge to the left...but obviously not :) i would certainly do that!

the dish rack is an idea i just love. we'll have to see what charlikin wants and make changes from there!

I would vote for the fridge by the door, so guests can get drinks w/o disturbing the cook. Though, maybe not--it's a bad idea to have the fridge across from the DW.

I would vote for a side wide enough to fit your cookie sheets or broiler pan into, even if it means an 18" dishwasher (OR....nobody's mentioned this...a 24" single-drawer dishdrawer.

Also, it's true you can't move the plumbing (well, you can't move the DRAIN), but I would BET you can move the gas line. It runs around inside the walls anyway, so as long as a licensed plumber moves it, it shouldn't be a problem--something to think about, seriously. At the least, I would enquire (and honestly, I might just move it and let the co-op board find out about it after, unless they have the right to approve your plans)

Also, on some of this stuff, if you don't like what the super is saying, GO to the board.

My ideal: move the range to the opposite wall, down near the window, and put the fridge by the door. That'll leave you w/ the sink in the middle, and the DW between the sink and the window.

You can slide the sink on that wall, up to 2 feet away from the drain.

This is incredible. It is SO beautiful!!! THANK YOU, i-chic!!!

I love the cabs going all the way up to the ceiling - that really is my preferred look. I do have that concrete beam at the ceiling on the fridge side, so the backs of the cabinets would have to be cut away and I'd lose most of the storage space on the top shelf, but I'd still have the *look*. (Also, the cab vendor tells me that by having the contractor cut away the backs of the cabinets, I'd be losing my warranty - how much of a problem do you think this is with cabinets??)

The fridge is, er, cool. :-) 24" deep?? That's amazing! (Btw, ajmadison.com is one cool site! What a great search engine, combined with great depth of product! Until now I'd been using sears.com because I liked *their* search engine (very similar to ajmadison's), but ajmadison has *much* better product selection!)

As for fridge placement - I think you hit it just right. It's a small kitchen, so no matter what we do, either the fridge is opposite the stove, the sink, or the dishwasher - best places (IMO) being at either end. The far end feels right. (It's that or the doorway in place of the tall cabinet on the right...)

Re: gas or electric - was planning on gas for the range... Is the Maytag gas or electric? And what's the double-oven thing all about??

I think I'd swap out the farm sink for an undermount. That way I'd have a more continuous-looking stretch of stone countertop.

I love the idea of the dish rack over the sink! Thanks, las!

15" deep cabs on the range side... that's an interesting thought! I'd just been doing the default 12's, but 15's would make sense.

I agree with las in only doing glass on the fridge side. I'm just not tidy enough to have glass on everything! Besides which, I kind of like glass as an accent. Hmmm... maybe keep the glass just over the sink?? Whatcha think?

I think I do need to lose the cab to the right of the range, unfortunately. I've got that heating pipe in the corner, and it's bad enough I'm blocking the bottom of it, I don't think I should block the top too. (Unless I just run the stove all the time for heat!) It's unfortunate, it will mess with the symmetry of the room...

This is really coming together!!!

Ig (Iggie? LOL) -- I do agree that the tall cab balances that wall and would prefer it, but function first, and I always want to make sure its a good use of space. You are absolutely right that you could do rollouts there, but my pre-coffee brain wasn't thinking of that. You seem to lose a bit more room in the width (I have one of each and it works that way in mine), so I would generally prefer the pullout, especially in a small space. If you can get the hardware for 21" depth, then it is out there and can be added. Doesn't really matter if a particular cabinet line offers it -- just if you or the contractor can find it.

Every kitchen has something you would do differently if you weren't limited on space, costs, or laws of nature. This one just happens to have the range and fridge opposite one another. I am less concerned about the oven being open than I am one person working at the stove and another getting into the fridge. They would be a bit more offset if you switched the cabinets on either side of the stove. I like the bigger counter space in the middle though -- so I think the trdeoffs are better as you have it.

Charlikin, I think we're unsure of what that heating pipe is and what it does. Most of us assumed it was just a hot water system pipe running from the apt below you to the apt above you, but now it sounds like it's the pipe that *provides* the heat for your kitchen? If so, then enough surface area needs to be left exposed to radiate heat.

The designers have their work cut out for them. :-)

Yes, the heating pipe is in lieu of a radiator. I have one in the bathroom too! (Hey, it's a 1948 apartment building! I'm grateful it's still standing. :-)) I'm planning to put grilled boxes around at least the bathroom one, and possibly the kitchen one also depending how much of it ends up showing.

Chap, do you think it's a problem to even put a cabinet in front of the heating pipe on the bottom??

As for two people trying to access the oven and the fridge at the same time - it's common NYC kitchen etiquette to say "excuse me" and wait for the other person to move. Sometimes we use more colorful language than "excuse me." ;-)

Might a double- or french-door fridge, with narrower doors, help?

ok lets see if i can incorporate some of these changers...and help you out with the appliance issues...but first:

the reason i put the fridge where it is was because no matter wjat...we have to work around that full legnth pipe. the broom closet idea is perfect so starting this design we basically had to have a big tall body on that end. putting the fridge down there then becomes both functional and astetic. astectic because it flows well off of the broom closet, and because it keeps the bulk of a fridge awat from the door. functional because when entertaining...you can talk to a guest (located outside the kitchen door) without hitting them in the nose with the door when you grab another cold glass for a martini.

heres your oven in gas which will run about $1,500. you probably haven't read my many comments on white appliances LOL or you would have been in great fear when i was picking them....but ::big sigh:: if i'm going to be a kd i suppose i have to take clients wishes into consideration lol

this is your summit fridge on sale at around $1,000 at compact appliances.com

i had forgotten to tell you apparently that you need to change cabinet vendors. yours is already feeding you full of goober and we've barely begun the process. you will be spending the bulk of your remodel funds on cabinets in order to make the difference between funky and fabulous. i have decided you must have fabulous :p cuz i like ya kid. we have to work with someone who is willing to work with us AND QUIts whining about us voiding the warrenty! (on this i do speak with some experience....i have to do some chopping into my cabs and know that there are companies who willl work with you on this. we'll find one for you!

ok i like the undermount sink idea and will change that as well as some of the glass.

i'd like to work in some toe kicks for tray storage as well.

ok back to work i go...i may be a bit slow but give me a day or so... were working on my drug levels and i still dont last long doing anything (I hate pain killers!!!)

Well, now that I'm getting a new fridge, maybe I should rethink the white appliance thing. (Don't have to match the old one anymore!)

*My* thought on white appliances is that they don't show fingerprints so long as they're *clean* fingerprints, whereas stainless seems to *always* have fingerprints! (Let's assume I'm not going to run around polishing the stainless all the time.)

And in addition to fingerprints, I've got two beautiful and happily curious cats who *don't* listen to direction well, so I would expect all sorts of pawprints and noseprints on the stainless as well!!!

But these are just my thoughts based on never having actually owned stainless, so maybe I'm way off-base.

I-chic - what do you have against white???

Oh, and re: cabinet companies - it was actually a Kraftmaid dealer who mentioned the thing about the warranty being voided if the contractor cut into them. I've decided not to go with KM anyway because I like the finish on some other cabinets better.

Right now I'm considering Medallion (framed) and Hanssem (frameless). I think they both have really beautiful finishes! That dealer (who sells both) hasn't mentioned anything about warranties being voided, and I haven't gotten a chance to ask yet.

Maybe the whole thing with the warranty is silly? I mean, what can go wrong with a cabinet over time, right?? (assuming it's installed correctly)

There was one dealer who wanted to sell me Canac cabinets which come with a one-year warranty. That scared me because who on earth would think it's appropriate for cabinets to have a one-year warranty??? What do they think it is, a toaster oven??? It made me think the cabinets must be made of junk if they won't stand by them for more than a year!

In any case, I could get 42" uppers, and with a few inches of (very simple) crown molding, I could hit the ceiling (which is being dropped a few inches from 103" to 100" in order to hide the light box which currently sticks out).

Any other cabinet companies I should be considering?

I have 2 cats and a stainless fridge. I don't think either cat has ever made a mark on my fridge, although I cannot say the same for my lab. She has been known to come in from a bath or wet trip to the park and shake in front of it as well as to lick off one certain cleaner she liked the smell of. I also have 2 boys. I did find a differnet cleaner, but I don't have to clean it more than once every 3-4 weeks. FWIW

Medallion is very nice, and of all; the fraed cabinets we looked at, I thought they were well made, had nice finishes and lost less space to the frame of the cabinet than average.

I would also suggest looking at Brookhaven. You can get them framed or frameless, but in your kitchen, I'd want to go frameless and squeak every possibly bit of space for functional use. I have Brookhaven frameless andreally like them. They were a bit less than Medallion for us, similar quality and -- the klinher -- frameless. Their warranty is 10 years, I think. The Woodmode ones are lifetime.

I don't know what to say about that heating pipe, but it sounds like you are getting very close.

Up until you said "beautiful finish," I was going to tell you to seriously get custom quotes. Piros in Astoria does good work, but they buy their doors, and I don't know what you'd get.

It would still, honestly, be worth looking into.

Can I ask a stupid question? How does the heating pipe work? Does heat come out of the entire length or just part of it? How much space do others typically leave around their heating pipes?

I've been following this thread with interest as I may soon be tackling an update of a very small galley kitchen, too. I won't have any heating pipes to avoid (hopefully) but I'm sure there will be other issues. Ig and others have made some great choices and I'm sure you will end up with a functional and aesthetically pleasing design. Good luck!

here's an interesting pic of *A* heating pipe.

In NYC, it's typically a cast-iron pipe about 3" in diameter, set about 2" out from the wall, and it runs from the basement to the roof. It's part of the steam (or hot water) heating system. Sort of like a vertical radiator.

Sometimes it carries the steam or hot water out from the boiler, and is crucial to heating the room; other times it carries the cooling steam or water back toward the boiler, and is really more of a "return."

There's no removing them. They're the same temp from top to bottom (like a tall, skinny cast-iron radiator)

These folks have some sort of box covering the bottom of it.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/124/404058294_eb73e8e05e.jpg?v=0

charlikin, how crucial is that pipe to heating the room? I'd be really tempted to simply box it off w/ cabinets, drywall, etc., if you don't actually need it.

But don't store your chocolate chips there!

(My vote would be for the 18" dishwasher, although I have a 24" in my 7.9x11.6 NYC co-op kitchen. Or whatever it would take to have a sink at least 21" wide. Also, 8" deep, and a high=rise faucet (one that doesn't come back down in a U shape) will make your sink seem huger than it is)

But, i also have a family of 4!!

Talley Sue, thanks for that very coherent explanation of a heating pipe!

In my kitchen's case, the heating pipe is *the* source of heat in the room. (I don't know what they do for a return.)

Fortunately, my apartment is pretty warm, so I feel okay about blocking the pipe on the bottom for a narrow cabinet/countertop. Wouldn't want to block the whole thing, though. My contractor's going to put a box with metal grating around the one in the bathroom - I might do this in the kitchen as well... not as crucial since only a small amount of the pipe will show once I have upper cabinets over the stove (currently, I don't). If the box would take up valuable space I need to lay things out on that wall, I'll skip it.

OTOH, it might be good to squeeze the box in since I've found that paint doesn't like to adhere too well to the pipe - it ends up flaking off. I don't know if that's because my painter hasn't used the right kind of stuff on it...

My kitchen measures a grand 8x8.5Â. After the remodel, it will be huge at 9.5 x 11Â. IÂm in a 2 person household. You will get my 24" DW away from me when you pry it from my cold dead fingers (OTOH, I would have paid you take the 1981 DW). IÂd accept an 18" if that was the only option for a DW. I WILL have a DW.

Maybe you like to wash dishes; maybe you donÂt cook much. If I lived in NYC, IÂd eat all of the wonderful, inexpensive ethnic food I could get. As it is, we both cook, from making our own stocks to sauces. Sometimes the dishwasher runs more than once a day, and we never entertain in the house, and I hand wash as I cook.

Ikea makes a SUPER deep squarish sink in stainless. I donÂt like stainless sinks, but it might be a good consideration for you.

"My mother asked me why people on tv are able to renovate their homes for so much less - I'd like to know that myself." They do it just like the Antiques Road Show  they lie. I think, actually, they are giving the prices for a lot of things at cost, with NO labor added in.

DonÂt put spices, oils or wine in any space adjacent to a heat source. They will degrade quickly in heat.

Regarding chopping the cabs and voiding the warrantee  could you do the shorter cabs, and hire a cabinetmaker to box in the top and put fake doors in to make it look like cabs to the ceiling? If you could live with the lower cabs for a while and do the finish work later, it might be easier to swallow, financially. You could tuck some viney green growing stuff up there to distract from the soffit until the finish work was done.

The toe kicks that IC is suggesting give you another bit of storage and functionality.

Finger/paw prints on stainless: IÂm FAR from a neat freak, but sans hubby, there would be no fingerprint issues on my stainless. I wipe it all down about once a week. The cats are going to investigate the new acquisitions when they come into the house, but unless you continually anoint them with salmon fat or something equally yummy, they will lose interest in them fairly quickly. My cat has never shown an interest in the stainless. My dearly departed yellow lab is another story!

The complimentary design service by Igloochick Design ®, is fabulous! The people on this forum are so generous with their time. Igloochick, this was such a lovely thing to do! YouÂve designed a beautiful kitchen with amazing functionality.

All that said, you have to please only yourself! Unless your partner cooks. If the partner does fully 50% or more of the cooking AND the cleanup, then maybe you should consider your partnerÂs preferences, too. If your name is the only one on the deed, you can forget about your partnerÂs preferences, unless you were born on a Tuesday and your eyes are blue . . .

i had to take a sick day lol but i'm back at work now fitting in the changes. i guess i for got to mention that the sink is 24" and the dw is also 24" so i gave you both! and even with the alteration to an undermount, i believe we have plenty of room to keep them.

i have kitties. they actually don't like the stainless because its cold i guess. i never see paw prints on it at all.

i don't like white appliances because they always look cheap to me (i know thats wrong and i'm sorry!) and i think they're too stark if they're not next to white cabinets. its probably some old phobia left over from grandma's kitchen (she was a lovely lady but eating her cooking was torture!) that being said, i did work hard to find you some cool looking white appliances!

now on those cabinets. why dont you start a thread asking what dealers to visit in your area? dont faint....but i want you to look at plain and fancy and omega. your kitchen is so small that the difference between cheaper and more expensive might not be that much. omega would do all of these custom pieces and youd have a lifetime warrenty. p & f as well i believe. in fact kompy sells p & f and might be able to approximate costs for you by eye balling the drawings when i'm done.

i didn't realized that the heating pipe went all the way up, but i have an idea for that. how about if we do either shelfing or a cabinet with a mesh back and mesh (metal) door used for decorative serving peices. this gives a balanced look to the area around the stove and would allow the heat to circulate freely. we could carry the mesh down to the counter top as well in a sort of box like piece which would be a design feature.

ok off to add plate racks!

Hmmm, I'm going back and forth on going stainless for the appliances. I was all set to bite the bullet and do stainless (I do like the look), but then I started reading again all the threads about everything people go thru to keep it looking nice... it seems even the folks who claimed it was no big deal to keep clean were spending significant effort doing it. (Maybe not significant to them, but it would be significant to *me* - it's all relative! ;-))

I think it might be back to white.

I'm also rethinking the color of the countertops a little - I was going to do a darker countertop to contrast more with the light maple cabinets - not in the black/grey/dark green family, but more of a dark brown. (Silestone has a new color that has dark brown with specs of other colors including a sort of cream color that would work with the white appliances.)

But now I'm thinking I really like the look of granite better - it has more "depth" than quartz, which looks kind of "painted on" to me. (You know what I mean?) And sealing it does sound easy enough that even I can cope with it (lol). So I'm actually thinking of more of a mid-color granite, still in the brown/tan family. With even lighter-color maple cabinets than I was originally considering, so I still have some contrast. There's a Hanssem finish I'm looking at called Alpine (I think) that's practically natural maple. Might all work better with the white appliances - not like white cabs (which I have now and don't want), but similar idea. Have to let it all gel in my head for a while...

Abejadulce, it's true I don't cook much, so the 18" dishwasher would actually work for me. Actually, *any* dishwasher will be an improvement! I've never owned one ! I think I'm going to need lessons on how to use it. It will be my favorite part of my new kitchen!

I love on Property Ladder when someone says they're going to put in a new kitchen and master bathroom and new hardwood floors and add french doors and a deck and landscaping and a new roof - and all for $20k. Of course, it ends up costing them $40k, but *still* - you couldn't do anything close to that in NYC.

Isn't igloochic amazing?? I can't believe she's doing all of this for me!!!

Ig, next time you're in NY, you must come visit! I'll cook you something wonderful in my new kitchen, and you can dine at my new dining table, relax with a cup of coffe on my new sofa, and then take a shower in my new spa-like shower!!! (Yeah, I know that's a little weird - I keep inviting that people should come take a shower in my house once the bathroom's done. ;-))

The cabinet place I've been speaking to that sells Medallion and Hanssem also sells Omega - I'll talk to them and see what the price diff would be.

(Mesh back and door to cabinet? That's brilliant!!!)

Can't believe I forgot to say - i-chic, how are you feeling? Are you okay? I'm sorry you felt ill enough you needed a sick day - not for me (though I missed you yesterday), but for YOU!

How's your arm healing? One of my friends also got injured during her renovation - she tore her rotator cuff and ended up with two surgeries and physical therapy for a year. I hope your injury is no where near that bad.

Big (gentle) hug!

lol your kitchen is the only thing that keeps me awake! these pain pills are too strong and i'm always sleepy and dizzy. when they start to wear off i work on your kitchen :)

i changed the sink cabinet to a 27" which keeps the 24" dw in tact, but reduces the next cabinet to 18". you've gor a couple of nice sized storage cabinets over on the other side so that should be fine. i also incorporated the other changes as best i could with my wimpy training on this program (which is chief architecht by the way). if i missed anything let me know!

the one other thing we need to do here is to decide what those lower cabs should be. we know about the pull out pantry and the broom closet, but what about the balance of them? doors or drawers? i'd do more drawers if it were my kitchen...but think about what you use in your kitchen now and what you'd like...we can always change things.

if you go stainless, you would have a lot more options on that fridge, including the kitchenaid 36" or a subzero...but you'd want to think about that and decide how important that is in new york. personally even without ds, we use every inch of those 36" (dh and i) but you're talking about costs in the five to seven grand area verses fifteen hundred...so how much would it matter? you could put those in the same space though because they are true 24" debth (i have both so i know this).

i'll learn more about the arm, tomorrow. if the bone grafts took...than things are good and i can hope to back off the drugs next week. if they didn't we'll have another surgery which would suck. i have so much plaster to get back to lol!

anyhoo...heres the current changes...

i just saw something we have to change...we'll need to perhaps make the end cabinet 9 to 10" and have a filler on the end to get past the window sill when its pulled out. well have to make that 18" a bit smaller as well and put a small filler on the end with the dishwasher depending on the specs to ensure room to open past the door frame. thats one reason to go p&f or omega...or a combo of omega and dynasty...they'd do dynasty for the stock sizes and omega for the custom pieces keeping overall costs down. we'll have the same issues on the other side. i'll fix all that when we change the lower cabs so you have an accurate listing.

I'm not sure if you like them but there are some dishwashers out there designed to be installed under the sink. Makes for a shallow sink but its a compromise I lived with a couple of times in my NY apartments. . .

Best of luck to you!

Hey i-chic! Hope the bone graft news is good...and that you can get off the pain meds because YOU'RE OUT OF PAIN! Keep us informed!!

Re: doors vs. drawers - I do need a mix. I've got some things that I'll want to store in regular base cabs - like big bags of cat food and cat litter. Originally, when the fridge side was going to be one long stretch of cabinets and counter, I was going to have three cabs going across (not counting the broom closet) -- a 3-drawer unit inbetween two door units.

Actually, I had a new thought/concern about the location of the broom closet. I realized that my window has a sill (imagine that!) that sticks out about an inch from the wall. Also extends about an inch each way from my measured width of the window. I'm afraid the broom closet door (which I'm assuming hinges on the left) will bang into this sill... Even if I hinge on the right, then the door won't clear the sill.

I'm going to ask my contractor about removing the sill. I never know in my apartment if something is easy or hard or impossible... This *has* to be easy to fix. I'm obsessing unreasonably. (Because we all know there *is* such a thing as *reasonable* obsessing! LOL)

Oh, and the end cabinet next to the stove? I agree it's a 9", but I think it's a tray cabinet. I could use one of those, and then it's just a little door that should swing open fine. Oh, wait, there's that window sill again - well, hopefully, it's gone and it's not a problem.

We do need a filler on the wall side of the dishwasher to support the countertop weight. (The designer in Lowe's told me she liked 3" of filler to support stone countertops, but that she thought I could get away with 1-1/2" -- that still sounds like a lot of space to give up!)

I don't think I need a 36" fridge (and I wouldn't want to give up the space for one). I am concerned that our current choice of fridge (the Summit) is too small (esp. since it looks like 40% of it goes to the freezer!). I've got an 18.2 cu ft one right now, and it's a top freezer so most of it's fridge. I could get by a little smaller than that, but the Summit would give me probably less than half the fridge space.

Why oh why don't they make a nice 28" fridge in counter-depth?!

Mix of Omega and Dynasty? This sounds interesting...

omega is owned by dynasty so they often combine the lines. they do the custom boxes by omega and the standard boxes are dynasty. then you can choose any door or finish, but if you go with dynasty for the doors/drawres and finishes, the costs are quite a bit less. this way you can do a mix of stock and custom and pretty much get anything you want in the cabinet options.

on that range cabinet (the possible 9" one) thats going to be a 12" counter either way. this is both a code issue and a function issue. you need to have 12" for code next to the wall, and its also a nice landing area for pots off the stove. i suggested 9" to keep the cabinet stock...then we'd have a filler on the window end.

your hd kd is on crack. you dont need a filler to be 3" on the dw side for stone. thats way too much wasted space...and a filler is just a board in the front...its not holding up the granite. instead the dw will have a panel type support that fits there which is used to support the counters. mine is about an inch wide or less (i have to check the plan)

we only need about an inch filler to deal with that sill. go ahead and measure its debth out from the wall for me and i'll factor that into the finished design. we';; then have the door frame covered as well (is that going to have trim or be finished drywall without a frame? you really do like to have a bit of fudge room on cabinets against a wall because most aren't square entirely.

go ahead and get a few of those measurements and i'll work on a few more changes all at once :)

my bone grafts held! so no surgery again, but there was a bit if redness they are worried about so i'm onto some new drugs lol and no more oxy for me...i'm off to vicadin land.

if you'll do stainless i can do a fridge with less freezer space. do you want a freezer at all? i think i can stay below 30" in stainless at counter debth, but not in white...the selections are more limited.

So my plan was to make an appointment with my cabinet place for tomorrow to talk about the relative costs of Medallion vs. Hanssem vs. Omega (amazing that she carries all three!). I want to do a sample layout in all three brands to see how it comes out, even if it's not quite the layout I end up using.

BUT - grrr - I think I'm going to spend my holiday weekend being sick. Went to bed not feeling quite right last night - attributed it to over-consumption of wine at dinner with my friends. ;-) Woke up with a sore throat. Taking airborne and hoping it's not too late!!!

Anyway, complaints, complaints... LOL

Igloo, I'm so happy about your bone grafts! Hope the new drugs treat you well. Those were some pretty heavy-duty painkillers you were on - hope you don't miss them!! ;-)

Re: the fridge - let's see what's available in stainless... Definitely want a freezer - where else would I put the Smart Ones ice cream treats? ;-)

I was planning on the doorframe just being finished off as drywall.

Forgot to measure the sill - I'll do that tonight.

Have a FANTASTIC Memorial Day Weekend everyone!!!

Hope everyone's having a great weekend - especially you, igloochic! Me - sick as planned. ;-) I feel like a nyquil commercial - scratchy throat, cough, runny nose, fever, achiness... you know, the usual. And it's beautiful here in NY! We're having *glorious* weather for the long holiday weekend!!! Sigh.

Well, it's giving me plenty of time to browse the web and obsess about my kitchen & bathroom some more. :-)

Anyway - I've decided to go stainless. I spent some time on the FKB, and it seemed that in many cases where people chose white appliances with their new kitchens, I thought it would have looked better in stainless. And I'm spending so much on this kitchen in upscale treatments like stone countertops and tile backsplashes that I want it to look upscale - which I think white just won't do. So that's that. (I've decided that fingerprints on stainless is like wrinkles in linen - it's just an upscale badge of honor!)

I think the range I love is actually a Frigidaire Gallery model. Only one oven, but it's convection, and five burners, and I don't need five burners OR convection, but, well, it's just pretty. I chose it because it's pretty. Is that a bad reason to choose a stove??? LOL

There's a microwave that goes with the Frigidaire that's also kind of pretty, but there's also a Kenmore model that would look nice with it that has a grill feature that's supposed to work pretty well. So I might go for that.

Anyway, windowsill measurements - the windowsill juts out an inch from the wall, and 3/4" side to side. Either I replace the windowsill with something flush against the wall (want to talk to my contractor about that), or we need spacers.

When I look at my old kitchen now, I kind of see my new one overlaid on top of it... do you know what I mean? Maybe it's just the fever talking...

Haven't read every thread but studied the most recent plan.
May I suggest moving fridge south against the other pantry? Its placement opposite the range will be problematic when opening doors of both oven & fridge simultaneously - it will happen more often than you think. Moving it south so that it sits opposite the sink is a better arrangement for the process of cooking (fridge to sink to cooktop).
I might also suggest running the shelves on the west wall (the one above the sink) continuously, i.e. keep clearance height over countertop consistent. Shelves are generally mounted 18" (minimum) above countertops. Unless you have a seriously high gooseneck faucet, 18" is more than sufficient clearance above the sink.