Well school in general have gotten worse. Sometimes it is hard to realize if your child is going to a great school and you are living in "Paradise". Bad school systems have gotten worse when it comes to discipline, and teachers aren't allowed to do much about it at times. The child can say what they please, attack the child, if they please. Many times their rights are upheld more than those of the teacher.

Now ,if you have children that are labeled "Emotional problem child" this child is allowed to say and do as they please, this is the truth- because of their emotional problems they have had in the past!! Parents are more out to worry about the teacher's behavior then they are their own child's behavior.

Parent: "Why did you yell at Johnny"
Teacher: "Well he was cursing at me and wouldn't sit down" The villian here sometimes turns out to be.....The teacher(?)
Even though they were just trying to do their job.
So sad, Johnny mother doesn't care that her son/child has so respect for the teacher and no one disciplines Johnny. He learns in Life..he can do what he pleases. Of course later this will present problems when Johnny has to live in the Real world. And the parents will then begin to wonder- why is this happening to their child? Seen it, many times as I have a few grown kids. Johnny lands in jail, and the parents are astonished!!

This does go on at bad school, fair schools, and at some of the best.

I really find it hard to believe a teacher as someone said in a reply about about their father saying the schools weren't worse.He must be one of the few"Lucky" teachers that teach in the "Paradise" school system.

AND even though we don't want to hold "Leave it to Beaver" up to as a standard to be met, we have to have some type of standard.

These and other problems like Johnny having fits (not seizures) -fits- about not getting his way and striking out at other students (in high school as well) this does happen. You might not hear about this happening but it does!! Johnny is no longer sent to Reform school sometimes , he might be suspended.
That doesn't help Johnny - He enjoys the days out of school at home-Wow like an unforseen "Snowday". Usually he is allowed to play Nitendo and his CD 's and pile up on the couch watching the tube eating Nacho chips and sipping coke or Pepsi!!

Sometimes the schools are reluctant to tell parents about these situations, they want the parents to think everything is on the Up and Up. And are closed mouthed about any negitive news being told their school.

Studies show that child behavior in school as a general population is a lot worse than it was years ago.

Sometimes as I said before -you may not know about it.

There are some school where parents are more inclined to care about their children's behavior also.
So, you may just be seeing greener pastures, while there are weeds on the other side of the fence.

I used television as one example. There are others. There are so many things children can get into today because so many say it's okay to do this or that. What's wrong with doing this or that? I never heard of anyone using dope when I was in school. What about now? Today some of the parents are growing it in their homes and selling it and using it. I am using this example because this has happen at our local school in rural America by some of my former students.
There are children within 5 miles of me who have gotten killed in an automobile accident due to not listening to their parents and there have been those who committed suicide due to drinking and doing drugs? What was missing in their lives? Had they made the right choices they could very well be living today. This is real pain.
My son could have gotten killed when he turned my truck over trying to miss a deer that had run out in front of him. God spared him. He was trying to rush home probably driving too fast on a gravel road. Wonder what the outcome would have been had he been drinking or on dope? He lived to be taught a great lesson on driving and on living. I still have the old truck with bashed in door as a reminder. Thank God he was not under the influence of alcohol or any other drug. He would have probably been just another statistic. A dead one.

Arkansasgardenboy:

How old are you? I am 36 and there were plenty of dope smokers when I went to school (graduated HS 1983). Their parents DID NOT approve. I doubt today's parents approve either. Teens have ALWAYS rebelled a bit against authority and I don't think it was any different when you were a child.

Thank G@d your son is ok.

Mommabear

Mommabear,
I am old enough to be your father. You know I rebelled before I was a teenager but I got whipped with a switch and a belt from my parents and I was not abused. I had done wrong and I was punished for misbehaving and I am thankful I had parents who love me enough to correct me and punished me for being stuborn, disrespectful, and just disobedient.
I have known some parents of former students who did not look out for the best interests of their children. They did not discipline their children when they were young and when the children got to be teenagers they were not able to control their children at all.
Some parents are doing all kinds of wrongful acts. Kids are turned loose too soon today. Have you ever heard of so many mothers who are killing their children as they are now? (abandoning, abortion, etc.) What about divorce rates? Have they come down lately?
As soon as someone compiles a list of these "paradise schools" please send me a copy. I know not all is bad. I know we have a lot of room for improvement.
My wife still teaches and she enjoys it. My oldest daughter is a teacher and she enjoys it. My wife can tell you about disciplining children. She has had and still has the respect of three generations of students.

Well the situation with drugs has increased. And parents with grown children do know that all in all some children are rebelling worse then children did 25-30 yrs. ago or so. Drugs are more universal then they once were. It is according to where you live too. I am 10 yrs. older than some folks here, and didn't know a whole lot of kids that did the drug scene. I have younger siblings that saw it more prevalent. I have grown children that can tell you some true tales that you wouldn't believe and we don't live in the inner city either.

In the 70's places like Ireland did not have drug problems. I saw a show where a family took there son (they lived in Hollywood of course and could afford to do this) out in the country in Ireland and therefore he was nowhere around drugs as they lived in the country side in Ireland. He eventually kicked the habit.

Of course this wouldn't work now as Ireland has drugs. It would break your heart to see the kids -young adults-that are homeless in Dublin and on drugs. It is also in the countryside of Ireland. There is no haven that is drug free now from drugs- where you would want to raise your family, I don't think.

So, drugs are more prevalent and rebelling more heard of. Everyone knows that teen rebel, but when they become bad drug addicts at a young age sometimes 13 or so, and there are more of them, and more type of drugs out there then there was years ago. I don't know how anyone could possibly say that things aren't worse. Some of the drug types that are on the street nowadays are not all that expensive. So, maying it easier for kids to aquire.

Well I see "Paddling at school" as the topic while I am typing, and here I am replying to something that has been brought up about "Drugs" :-)
But we must open out eyes to the problems that are around us, everywhere. Sometimes we aren't aware of the problems because we have young children or no children and haven't really kept in touch with the drug sitaution of teens and young adults, and of course now we have middle age to + age persons with drugs problems.

It is like the oil change commercial, you can pay me now or pay me later. There will be a payday someday. For some it is sooner rather than later. You will reap what you sow. So keep sowing the good seed, watering, weeding, cultivating, and fertilizing.

I don't know how you guys can live with such a dismal view of the world. I look at the things I did in my (totally average) schools and think that things are going really great. I helped hatch salmon in the school's hatchery, argued a mock trial case on second amendment law in front of a state supreme court justice, helped track cougar habitat in my county, took college classes in legal research, (barely) helped build a full-sized, working electric car, used email when less than 1/2 of 1% of americans had ever used it before, learned desktop publishing, and there were all kinds of other great things available to me. It seems to me that schools just get better and better. Now there are great alternative schools available to kids who don't like the regular educational methods - and they learn the same things, they just learn them in a way that works better for them. They are so lucky to have these things available, and to have teachers who believe in pushing the envelope and finding new ways to help students learn.

Here is an idea that won't win me any friends on this board. Maybe now that we have had a president from each party who has smoked pot (and at least one who has done much more), and we can't identify a single person in this country who has ever died from smoking pot, and we have thrown billions of dollars down the toilet trying to stop drugs from being distributed and FAILED utterly in every sense of the word, maybe it is time to stop accepting every single thing the government tells us about drugs. Maybe, like George Washington, we should make up our own minds about what our government and our media tell us. Maybe we should not draw an arbitrary line between the person who drinks a bit of alcohol (which has killed so many) on the weekend and the person who does mild drugs occasionally, just because the government tells us to. We can accept that drugs, like alcohol, are addictive and unhealthy, but we can accept the reality that people are going to use them anyway, and if they use them in moderation and don't hurt other people in the course of using them, then there is no POINT to hunting them down and putting them in jail.

Have you heard how many were killed today in Germany? Where at in all places at a school.....Why????? Check it out it should give you some clues....

I don't think drugs, in and of themselves are the problem, or the root cause (although ecstacy seems to be the drug du joir now, and it can be laced such that teens have been seriously injured or have died). I think the problem today is that there are no authority figures any more and kids are taught that if the teachers give them too much grief, they can tell their parents and their parents will sue.

They can basically laugh in the principal's face and not get punished.

Just this week in the Atlanta area, there have been more stories about kids gone awry, than I saw in my whole 12 years in publich schools in my day.

1) Ring of kids counterfeiting money using computers and printers was arrested this week.
2) 8 kids arrested for a shoplifting ring in which the sums were $8,000 worth of merchandise.
3) Testimony begins in a trial of a high school teacher accused of sexual misconduct with teens (one of three from the same school who are all charged).
4) Sting nets arrest of 11 students in a local school for sale of ecstasy, heroin and marijuana (the sting happened last school year but was announced this week as charges were officially filed).

This is only this week's news. I hear more throughout the year that tells me these are definitely different times.

We also didn't have overcrowding on the scale we have today. A school I visited for career day started lunch periods at 10:30 am! They had to, so that they could fit all the students into the cafeteria and get them fed by 2 pm. We also didn't have to take class in trailers. In my day of being a PC technician, I had to repair computers that were in those trailers, while class was going on. It was very crowded, desks very close, it was hot and sweltering, and the kids weren't paying any attention.

I still say things are very different today, and it's due to many factors, not just drugs, not just no-more-paddle-in-the-principals-office, etc. And I think there is an epidemic of parents who sue, and activists who got the education on this 'johnny's self esteem needs work, don't give him a bad grade' kick.

Just my opinion.

TREkaren,
Everything you said is true.Ectasy is the drug that many teens can easily afford and get their hands so, so I have heard. And yes drugs are a universal problem out there. In regular school now I have seen many parents that have had to deal with children that have been on drugs and spent fortunes on rehab, or either had their children rob their homes of expensieve appliances, jewlery, and whatever they can get their hands on so they can sell the merchandise for drugs. Around here sometimes the schools where the parents have the most money can be the worst.

Parents being so bighearted and working so much just give the kids all sort of spending money-and whenever you start giving teens money and not asking what the money is spent for-there can be all sorts of problems. Money can not Buy the closeness, or time, or the attention of parents that teens need.

Trekaren's posting is very true about how children can and do treat teachers and principals.
Many times I belive the robberies and murders that take place in this country are the products of drugs, with people either taking the drugs before commiting the crime or have drugs in their system. Alcohol in overdrive can also cause the same effect.

Thanks for your comments Trekaren.

Crime has been trending DOWN in most parts of the US for the last 20 years. Not up. That's not to say that there isn't bad parenting out there. Just that the bad parenting isn't necessarily translating into higher crime rates.

Also-I don't know where any of you went to school, but I had overlapping sessions and double sessions due to school overcrowding from the time I was in 4th grade. I am 36 years old. These problems didn't just start yesterday, nor are things quite a bleak as people on this board like to paint them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bureau of Justice Page

Are the people any better (morally) today than they were 20-40 years ago? I am trying to help people improve but it has got to come from within, you have got to want to improve and then work to becoming better. So many times people are just unwilling to admit they are a problem, or part of a problem instead of being a part of the solution.
We difinitely have problems in society. Where do we start to improve? Within. How? Setting the proper example.
When? Now. Just as there must be standards for learning. More importantly, there must be standards of behavior in society, in schools, and at home.
We are a world of many rules and regulations, but many people seem to do what they think is right in his or her own eyes. How many are willing to raise the standard of behavior and try and live up to or above that standard?
Again, many see nothing wrong in many things we have compromised and accepted as okay, because so and so did it, it must be okay...We judge our own behavior by someone else standards too many times. I am not perfect, but I am trying to improve.
I know drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, profanity, pornography, adultery, idolatry, fornication, bitterness, envying, strife, hate and malice are wrong. I know I have not listed all sins of which I am not allowed to go into on this forum. I know all of the above are harmful and they lead to further consequences.
May we have the love, respect, honesty, fairness, cooperation, justice and support to our fellowman.

The one thing that you have right is that people have to live life according to their own standard. Your standard is not the one. I am not ready to give up sex or the occaisional drink. I am also not ready to blacklist all cigarette smokers as sinners.

I don't think of all the things on your list as sins and I wouldn't want you to impose your version of morality on me or my children. Sorry-but I will continue to drink a glass a wine prior to enjoying sex with my husband and not feel like there has been some sort of sin against G@d.

Mommabear

Mommabear,
According to those statistics crime is still rising. Look at all of the lists....

Continue to Decline

Here is a link that might be useful: DOJ-Property Crimes

Continue to decline

Here is a link that might be useful: DOJ_Violent Crime Trends

Increase since 1970. Probably due to better enforcement. Good-gets the drug dealers off the street

Here is a link that might be useful: DOJ-Drug Arrests

Continues to increase.

Where are the increases in crime?

Mommabear

Here is a link that might be useful: DOJ-% sent to prison

Smoking link http://www.smartlink.net/~phillipj/smoking.htm

Mommabear presents government statistics.

Arkansasgardenboy rebuts with a grade 7 student's science project.

What does smoking have to do with anything anyway?

I knew I would get your attention. I am going to eat supper. I am glad I don't allow smokers to smoke in my house.

I have some information I would like for you all to check out and this is current research. http://www.crimetimes.org/issues.htm#new

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.crimetimes.org/issues.htm#new

Okay,
I am going to give you what I found on crime data from the good state of Arkansas. Notice especially the offences against family and children. The link: http://www.acic.org/statistics/stats.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.acic.org/statistics/stats.htm

The crime rate in Arkansas trended up slightly in 2000, but if you look at the crime rate from 1991 to 2000 you will see that the rate dropped from 5241 crimes per 100K in population to 4121 a drop of 21%.

Mommabear

Mommabear,
Still too much crime wouldn't you agree? These are considered serious crimes. What are considered not serious crimes? How does Florida compare? Have you notice the data in how county by county comparisons are so different?
Property crime in 1999 at 91,990 in 2000 at 98,063 an increase of 6.6%. Violet crime in 1999 at 10,692 and in 2000 at ll,810 an increase at 10.5%.
When should we be able to get 2001 data?
Could someone give me a link to other states on crime data?

Well some websites may say drugs are down in the U.S. if you only consider illegal drugs (which I don't believe from my obervations-some areas though may vary from others.)
But the drug decrease in the early 1990's has increased.

Drugs like Ritalin, are used and abused by teens and college students, this didn't happen in the 70's 80's. Oxycontain use it going up and was not used not used. This drug is a prescription drug for pain for cancer patients -but is used by non-cancer afflicted persons and by people with with out any pain. Also other pain killers are widely used. Seems some drug users are going in for drugs bought legally /illegally that are legal drugs.

In the United Kingdom has been reported that drug use is at an all time high. I know from talking with people in Ireland that drugs there are on an upswing, and also witnessing it myself, seeing some addicts. As for the Europe and all time high.

A web link is below

Anita,
I don't have a dismal view of the world, but a realistic one. I don't dismiss what I see and hear. I know of teens and young adults who have spent time in Federal prison for drugs and have spent a good many years with the problem being in jails, going to rehab programs.

I think the world is a good place! I want to visit many parts of it. But I am aware there is a drug problem out there. I don't dwell on it all the time, but I am aware it is there.

I have two grown children and have seen some of their childhood friends brought down by drugs. Some like I said are not illegal drugs either. High school atheletes at some school can get easy acess to steroids, many times. Coaches don't care either at times.

Here is a site about the Ritalin problem from CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/children/01/08/college.ritalin/

The other site below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Illegal Drug Use Among Students Increases

Sorry about not proof reading so well. I had to type every address in. I can't copy from my address to this website. I can copy to others email addresses easily though. Some of the addresses I typed (because I couldn't copy) on the last posting reply were terribly long. The second a whole lot longer than the first.

Please excuse all the late night mistakes.

Arkansasgardeboy:

Any crime is to much crime. How did you turn this into a fight between Arkansas and Florida? I am sure that Florida has more crime than Arkansas. I am willing to concede that without even looking at statistics. Arkansas wins. Are you happy?

Your thesis is that there is much more crime in the world today than there was in the past. My thesis is that there is less crime today than there was 20 years ago. I have offered some proof. Where's your proof that there is more crime today than in the past? There is not more crime, there is more media coverage of the crime so that it seems like there is more crime to the average American. But, in reality there is LESS crime today than when I was growing up.

Lynn:

You are correct in your statement that the problems of today are different that the problems in the past. There is always a challenge in that we have a problem then we devise solutions to that problem. OK-but then there is a new problem that we didn't anticipate. It will never end and we certainly should not end our concern with crime.

However, beating kids up in school is not the solution to the drug problem in America, which is what this thread was originally about.

Mommabear

Mommabear,
I know what the thread was originally about. But you commented on the "Drug thing" too.
No one said anything to you about the thread was originally about "Paddling at school", Or was rude to you at all when you made your reply.

So why you couldn't give me the same courtesy in my reply? I have not idea??

I certainly didn't say "Beating kids up " was the solution to the drug sitution. You won't find that in the context of my reply at all. As I did not see it in your replies on the "Drug Problem" either.

Your comment was strange and didn't make any sense.
If you couldn't write something that was sensible I don't know why you bothered to write anything at all.

-I guess you just wanted to get a reaction out of me, which you achieved!!- Enough said!!

I am certain she was not trying to be rude Lynn. She was just saying, I think, that discipline or lack of discipline in schools isn't the cause of, or the solution to, drug problems. Well, maybe that isn't what she was saying. But I don't think she was trying to be rude.

You say Ritalin abuse has gone up, which didn't happen in the 70s and 80s. Ritalin hasn't been around that long. If it had been, I'm sure it would have been abused. Prescription drugs have always been abused - from ether and morphine, valium and barbituates, to ritalin and viagra.

Besides which, have you ever taken ritalin? It is not smart to abuse it, but having never TRIED it, can you really say that it is that harmful and awful? Maybe it is not a terrible social problem, but just a dumb thing people do. Maybe it causes no more harm to your body than a hamburger - after all, they give it to millions of children. So, why get all upset about it? Which of the illegal drugs are really that dangerous? Only a handful.

So people want to waste their lives doing drugs. There are all kinds of people wasting their lives in all kinds of ways. So what. I don't see why the government should use my tax money hunting them down and shooting them and keeping them in prison at costs of millions of dollars a day. And they make drugs so expensive that it motivates people to steal. The cost to society of the drug war is absolutely ridiculous. I am tired of being robbed blind by a hopelessly stupid, unwinnable war. There are so many other things we could do with that tax money. We could have the best schools in the world, as good as the best private schools. If only we could let go of our pre-conceived, irrational ideas about drugs being so awful, and see them as what they really are - personal choices.

Here is a link that might be useful: legalize heroin

I didn't say anything rude to you. If there are 2 ways to interpret my comments please choose the one that DOES NOT hurt your feelings.

I was trying to relate our conversation to the original topic of the thread.

Mommabear

Wow, I really missed a lot by skipping this post for so long!

Nope, don't think schools should paddle. Paddle my child and I'll call every source of media within 100 miles of the school. Nothing like bad press. Leave a permanent mark, I'll sue. I really will. If my child commits such an offense that the administration is inclined to paddle him, call me, I'll be there in 7 mins flat and he'll wish it was as easy as being paddled.

IMO, the only offenses serious enough to warrant even the consideration of corporal punishment would be criminal offenses, so call the police. Yep, even if it's my child. From my experience seeing kids paddled when I was in school, it was the same kids time after time. I guess they didn't get any behavioral conditioning from the experience.

I remember my mom telling my brother and I as teens that if we were ever at a party and kids started drinking or using drugs, call her no matter what time or where and she'd come get us and not ask a single question. At the same time, she told us if that call came from the county jail because we chose to participate, forget getting a ride home from her! We knew where we stood.

I never made that call from jail, or even from the party. I never had so much as a detention in school. I knew of the trouble my peers got into, alcohol, drugs, crime, violence, teen pregnancy, etc. Even for the small town I lived it, there were a lot of problems in the HS. Frankly, I was just never personally exposed to it.

I was disciplined growing up. But my parents didn't spank me or hit me in any other way. Their methods had nothing to do with religion, I don't remember the last time I was in a church. I think what kept me out of trouble was 1)mutual repsect with my parents and 2)I was too busy. In HS, I worked parttime, did volunteer work, and was involved in extracurricular activities. I did not have the time for booze or sex! My parents knew where I was- my work and activities schedule was posted on the fridge. It takes a certain amount of committment from the parents to keep their kids that involved, driving them places and going to activities. Too many parents want a quick solution that requires very little effort from themselves. That's why I will give my children my time, but not the back of my hand.

Arkansasgardenboy,
You commented that you are only trying to help people who don't want to help themselves. I don't know who exactly you are trying to help. Us? Here on this forum? Who? It's funny that you made a comment about being a part of the problem instead of the solution, but that is exactly what I was starting to think of you. You come here and preach, but what are you really doing in your daily life to reach out to young people and make a difference? If there is something you, tell me, maybe you can still earn a little respect from me. But this preaching and complaining is pathetic!

I don't profess to know the solutions to society's problems. I know they aren't new, every generation has challenges. But I cannot imagine a connection between using a board on our children and crime rates/teen pregnancy rates/divorce rates or any of the rest of it. Of course children need discipline and guidance. It is a parent of weak mind who can only accomplish that through physical means.

Whose doing the preaching?

Maybe this forum should have been called padding in school. I think I could use a little about now. Have a good day. I still love you all....

Stephanie,

Good point! Idle hands, etc etc

I see some good kids who are busy with parttime jobs or extracurricular activities. These are the ones driving the beat-up car who are working to pay for school (not working to pay for an SUV) :-)

I see a lot of others who are very disrespectful to elders (of which, I'm afraid to say, I am an elder now! so I notice), could care less about everything from litter to shoplifting to drugs, and all they do is hang around the neighborhood shopping centers or malls or parks. The park I take DD to is constantly in need of cleaning up due to older kids who have way too much time on their hands.

So I think one key to ensure our crop of kids turns out ok is to give them healthy extracurricular activities to keep them out of trouble. My nieces are heavy into sitting businesses, theater, clubs, etc. and I think that's part of the reason they have steered clear of trouble. They've seen their share of trouble and said no, too.

I am reminded again of incident which happen in Conway,Arkansas this year, of a student who was killed at conveniece store, who was a college student working and earning money to go to college. If people chose to destroy only their own life such as the suicide at Delight recently; it is a different case, but many times they are killing and destroying others as well.
More on to the prevention,checking how we can improve another good site I just found today is:http://endabuse.org/statereport/list.php3

Here is a link that might be useful: http://endabuse.org/statereport/list.php3

Many school districts in Arkansas paddle..

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.aradvocates.org/links/

Our school will paddle, but only if the parent allows it. I have signed that my dd may be spanked, but only if I am contacted first and we talk about what happened. She has not been paddled yet at school. I do believe in paddling, but not for every situation or every child. Does it work? It does with my dd. However, my dss would rather be paddled than any other punishment. He sees it as a quick end to being in trouble. Back to schools-My dd is in a rural school and I love it. They as yet do not have many of the problems other schools do. They do have a spanking policy, but only for certain offences. They do ask that there be no homework assigned on Wed. so families may go to church if they wish. It's in the handbook! I think most schools in AR do spank, but you may put your child on the no spank list. Arkansasg-do you know? One problem I have with people telling me I cannot spank is that in our area anyway, if my child does something illegal, I can be held responsible. Yet, I can also be reported to SCAN if I spank. I have seen parents trying to reason with their 2 yr old child who was doing something potentially harmful (more than a swat on the hand or backside), but would not do more for fear of

Perfect example of schools being worse-the Westside School shooting along with many others (this hits home as I knew some of the children shot and one of the shooters). You cannot imagine what this does to a community until you have been there and attended funerals and memorials for 11 yr old girls. I am 35 and do not remember school shootings back then. We did not have metal detectors in our school. We did not have poice officers in our school and I did attend a city school that was somewhat large for AR-1500 in hs. The worst weapons were pocketknives. Now a boy cannot carry one. Drugs-every girl I knew carried Tylenol, Midol, etc in a purse. Now, a child would get expelled for that. Pot was the drug of choice. My dh is a policeman and in this area, we are considered the Meth capital. It's in the schools now. Heck, they even manufacture it in the back of trucks!

That is an example of THAT school being worse than it was a generation ago. That situation is not typical. The overwhelming majority of our kids will attend school without shootings or metal detectors. There can be specific examples of other schools as better than they were a generation ago, or of school having improved in one area and declined in another.

The number of students going on to college after high school is higher than it was a generation ago. One could argue that as in indication that schools are better than a generation ago. What I'm saying is there are too many variables to just make a vast generalization that schools are either better or worse.

Besides, do ya really think the school can be blamed for a student shooting? Dontcha think if a kid is going to shoot he is going to shoot no matter where he goes to school? With or without a pro-spanking policy? Or even if he didn't go to school at all? Blaming the school would make almost as much sense as blaming the gun.

The school's spanking policy, pro or con, should be an ethical decision, not one based on fear of school shooting or other violence. One has nothing to do with the other.

No, no one blames the school. Actually many blamed the parents saying they did not teeach them well.

Not just one school. I grew up in one city-school vilolence has increased. Yes, there are metal detectors and policemen. There was not either 17 years ago. I am now in a totally different area. Every school here has police officers called SRO's. We now have an "alternative school" for children who are not behaving enough to be in regular public schools. No, this is not the kind of alternative schools that I think are positive that many of you know about.

I meant that I believe in spanking, both and home and in school. I think kids have little respect for teachers and other figures of authority. I have a friend who worked in a Pediatric Center. She had 4 yr olds tell her she could do nothing to them. The Center is paid for by public funds and they cannot kick the children out.

I don't blame the schools for the shootings.
I also don't blame the schools for this new climate of adults being afraid to discipline children, fail children, tell children they are incorrect, etc. This is a national climate that started in the late 80's and has evolved over time. And it has led to this generation of kids having no respect for adults of any kind, be they law officers, teachers or parents. (not all kids, but a lot more kids than in prior decades)
And this lack of respect for authority is definitely to blame for what is happening now.
I still don't think spanking is the answer. The removal of paddling didn't 'cause' it. I do think that parents need to work with the schools and accept feedback about, for example, a child failing a grade, instead of threatening to sue if the teacher fails them. That's just one example.

Parents need to be the advocate for the children and make sure they are not being mistreated and that they are receiving a quality education while in school. Teachers need to have some latitude restored, to their authority, and allowed to use their own judgment in educating. And as we mentioned before, keep children more involved in constructive activities, and YES, I believe in limiting TV, movies and computer games to more educational alternatives. There are many facets of our lifestyle now, that are to blame for how kids are and I DO see different children and worse actions on their part than 20 years ago.

I live in the 'burbs, not in the hard streets of the city, and I still see it on a daily basis. So if I see things here I can't imagine what more challenged areas of town must see in their young people. (it's not dismal and they aren't all bad. But there is more 'bad' than there used to be).

Typing fast and not proofing so I hope i'm not rambling too much! just in a hurry...

My mom graduated high school in 1973 and she and her peers had very little respect for adults, teachers, cops and parents. The music they listened to, the things they believed, the way they related to each other, even the clothes they wore offended adults. They spend their time marching against and living against the things that adults believed in - the Vietnam war, nuclear weapons, segregation, unequal employment rights for women, the idea that native americans were second class citizens, the idea that the environment belongs to whoever has the most money to exploit it with.

Lack of respect for authority is far from a new thing, and the results of it can often be positive.

Generational stereotyping is so pointless. Remember about seven years ago when everyone moaned about how terrible "Generation X" was? They had no ambition, didn't know how to work, had no compassion, no respect, were rude and petty and lazy. All they wanted to do was play video games. Five years later, the stereotype of the same generation was that they were a bunch of internet geniuses who understood everything technological and could start a company and make a million dollars overnight, and they turned out to vote and care about social issues, too.

I think it is a tradition for each generation to think that the next one is dangerous, disrespectful, and worse than all that have come before.

I am among so many young people on this forum. I graduated high school in 1962. I haven't read all of the above responses but I apreciate all of your thoughts and I am planning on coming back and read your views.

Well I graduated in 1972 and I, my siblings and alot of my friends had alot of respect for out teachers , cops and parents. We liked some pop music , but would never talk back to any of the above-parents, teacher, cops, etc. I guess I wasn't part of the Hippy scene or California scene. Even though I dressed modern for that time, mini skits and all the lastest fashions.

But I knew what was going on in some other parts of the country, I did have newspaper and tv and there were some student riots at some colleges large ones in our state.

I have grown children that are in their 20's and I wouldn't label them as disrespectful. But of course they are not perfect.

My parents had siblings that also had children and with my parents having 5 children and I wasn't the first of the children they got use to longer hair and shorter skirts by the time I was older, and it was acceptable at the schools.

My parents were very strict though on a lot of matters, but I guess we just weren't the rebellious type of children. But I never did drugs or anything like that. I don't think you can label an entire generation by only those that make the headlines.

I went to college and knew of some people that did drugs, but I chose not to get involved with them. And at that time around where I lived alcohol was more of a problem then drugs were. (I know someone is going to tell me that alcohol is a drug)- I never said I was involed with alcohol.

I wonder what they will say about my children's generations?

My daughter and son are good workers at their jobs, my daughter very studious-both very popular in their groups of friends. I think they are great kids , of course :-) We communicate well. I guess they just never were that rebellious, even though we didn't agree on things at times.

First of all I followed the link from gardenboy in Arkansas and found the article disturbing!!
In my opinion any type of physical punishment is all about POWER AND CONTROL....putting FEAR into children doesn't teach them morals or respect. Just because you got the DESIRED BEHAVIOR as a RESULT of the "paddling" doesn't mean the child won't display the behavior again!!!!
Exactally WHAT does spanking, hitting, paddling, in regards to discipline TEACH a child???

Here's a good example right here on THS of two things:
1) lack of respect of kids for adults and
2) the parents of said kids acting like, "my kid would never do that!"

Here is a link that might be useful: Antecdote

Not so Flower girl.

Not so WHAT??? Which part of my post doesn't at all apply to the paddling at school deal?? WHAT DOES SPANKING AND HITTING AND PADDLING TEACH GARDENBOY????

Gardenboy I can't help but find it interesting that you think there is too much crime, does this CRIME include any violence against children, or violence in general?

Spanking teaching many things when it is administered properly, promptly, peacefully, precisely, predictably, protectively, provisionally, and prayerfully. There are alot of factors involved. The above list accounts for the attitude of the discipline. It must be admistered properly to be totally effective. It must be done in love not in anger, not in revenge, not in abuse, and not in excess. Slapping would not be proper.
Crime does inlude violence, but this is not disciplining; it is the opposite. Beating and abuse is violence and is totally different from a parent or teacher spanking a child.