I thought that Eden was not only pure enough (till mankind arrived, anyway), but warm enough, that they didn't need heaters. Wonder what they'd have used for fuel?

Think that Adam (if you credit that there was such an individual) might have been smart enough to have known how to a)fashion, and b)use, an axe? Without steel, it would have had to be made of stone, on which it is rather difficult to fashion a sharp edge.

Yes I can, since I've never heard of that kind, can give no evaluation whatever, sorry.

Maybe you should consider one fired with corn (or wheat or rye) - cheapest heat except wood that you cut yourself. But they do require electricity, if only a small amount.

(Maybe buy a multi-use generator with the savings in fuel?).

o j

I've not heard of them before, but since I want to cut heating bills as well I visited their web site to see what this heater does.

My general impression was not good, I felt the information was very misleading and that the claims were exaggerated. They seem to be marketing it as a special heater that emits more heat per unit of electric consumed than other heaters, and this is not actually true or even possible. All electric resistance heaters are 100% efficient at converting every Kwh they're provided in to heat. From their own information of how much electric the EdenPURE consumes and how much heat it emits I can confirm it's no more or less efficient than an ordinary electric space heater.

When you take in to account the cost of other fuels, this device will actually cost more per btu emitted than one from an ordinary gas or oil burning appliance does. Any savings realised from using these EdenPURE heaters are not because they are more efficient or provide heat for less cost per btu, instead it's because people have turned off/down their central heating which heats the whole house and instead are heating a much smaller space with a portable heater, probably just the room they're in, and when they move rooms they're taking the heater with them! In theory this works well and does save money, but it does not correlate well to their suggestion you can just plug it in and save loads of money. It involves a whole lifestyle change, and actually the savings have nothing to do with that specific heater as it would work just as well with a boring old oil filled electric heater from any other store.

My thoughts are keep your money, this device won't meet their claims.

Has anyone else tried the Edenpure, Sun Cloud, or other heaters that use the same technology?

It involves a whole lifestyle change, and actually the savings have nothing to do with that specific heater as it would work just as well with a boring old oil filled electric heater from any other store.
Does it heat any better than a boring old oil filled electric heater?

I read a thread elsewhere here where it was debated and a member posted:
Whether it is a $30 heater from WalMart, $55 oil filled electric radiator from Home Depot or a $400 heater from Edenpure, it all the same, 1 KW of electric put in = 3,413 Btu's

I then posted:
Ok, lets add into the mix a 1500 watt hairblow dryer, and a 1500 watt Quartz heater and a 1500 watt Toaster oven

So you are saying that they would all produce 3413 BTUs. Would one particular appliance or heater heat a room just as efficiently as another? I would really like to know if there is a difference in heaters and how well they heat.

After I posted I noticed they were talking about 1000 watts where I was talking about 1500 watts.

Grainlady, I really wanted to email you asking about your location and floorplan or the area yours heated, but saw you have no email link. I hope you see this and respond as to how you are enjoying your Sun Cloud by now. I value your input.

Sue

Any electric resistance heating device that consumes 1500 watts of power will emanate prit near the same 1500 watts of heat output to the surrounding environment ... whether it's a space heater, hair dryer, or toaster oven.

The hairdryer has a powerful blower, perhaps makes it better able to circulate the heat through a room. But noisy.

The quartz heater likely doesn't have a blower, works more by radiant effect, warming objects.

Likewise the toaster oven doesn't have a blower (unless it's a convection oven). And it has a thermostat within the small confined space of the oven that would cycle the elements to maintain a bake or broil setpoint. It may stay on continuously on a toast setting if the toasting cycle isn't controlled by a timer or thermostat.

One could set a desk fan blowing at the quartz heater or toaster oven for circulation.

What bry84 said.

----------

This issue has been "debated" on the Kitchen table Forum. There is no 'debate'. You can't cheat the Laws of Physics. Period.

If you need a space heater for a room on the far end of your house that the furnace fan cannot blow to, or one under your desk to keep you feet warm, or for zone heating, or whatever, then get one, but you don't need to spend $500 on any of these seen advertised since a $30 one from your local hardware store will function the same.

Sue/Chemocurl -

I can't confirm or deny what was contributed by dadoes and dilly dally. They usually give great advise and information, however, they don't report numbers from any experience with an infrared-type heater. I can only share what we've experienced, and the numbers from our utility bills and experience with a large number of other space heaters, as well AS the Infrared Heater. The Sun Cloud is the only one we've owned that worked well enough to replace the furnace. It's not used to warm our toes under a desk, it's used to warm the entire area in three rooms.

I live in the middle of Kansas. The space we heat in our home with a Sun Cloud is the center of the house where the living room/dining room/kitchen (open floor plan) are located. Our house is 1372-sq. ft. No north or south exposure in this area, windows only on the west side of this area - front entrance on the east. The three bedrooms and master bath are unheated and closed off from the main area of the house (maintain a temperature in the bedrooms in the mid-50's and low 60's). Unheated basement. The home is 3-years old. All (energy efficient) windows are covered with additional insulation in the form of bubble wrap (see link below) and insulated Levolor blinds.

This year we've only had our furnace on for 10-days - while we were gone for Christmas and while we had guests visiting for several days. We use the Sun Cloud and rarely (for ambience) the small gas fireplace (installed this fall and located in the living room). We never use the fireplace and the Sun Cloud at the same time. Temperatures have been as low as 8°F and have commonly been in the teens this winter.

We now have another Sun Cloud and we use it in the master bath when we bath/shower.

Our use of utilites is much lower than those of the neighbors who have similar households and home sizes and use their furnace as their source of heat. I'm also home all day so we don't drop the temperature during the day.

- Safety - Sun Clouds have an A-1 Insurance rating. Not all space heaters have that rating. Check with your home insurance agent to see if there are space heaters that can increase your insurance because of poor safety ratings.

- This type of heating doesn't remove humidity from the air. For maximum efficiency, a 40% or higher humidity should be maintained in the area being heated. We use a small humidifier in this area of our home to maintain this humidity level.

- What we've noticed that was different from all the other kinds of space heaters we've used is the even distribution of the heat. You can walk around this area of the house and the temperature only varies 1-3 degrees in any direction from the Sun Cloud.

-The heater is placed on a centrally-located inside wall. Even standing within a few feet of the Sun Cloud, you don't feel the temperature is any different than 9-ft. away at the dining table or 8-ft. in the other direction while sitting on the sofa.

-You wouldn't want to use a Sun Cloud in a room with exposed, uninsulated concrete or metal walls. I wouldn't try to use ours in our unfinished/unheated basement.

We have friends, in the same town with a similar-sized home, who have used a Sun Cloud as their primary source for heat for the first time this year and they have the same utility-lowering results. I know we saved enough the first year we had the Sun Cloud to pay for it. We have since given our 1st Sun Cloud to our son and we've purchased 2 more when the store had them on sale.

-Grainlady

Thank you all for replying.

Dilly,
I agree, there is no debate, but the quote I made above was from a forum other than the KT. I really am not trying to deny the law of physics and know what I pay per kwh.

Grainlady,

Thanks for taking the time to explain all about your experience with your space 'furnace'. I saw where one of the sites referred to them as a space furnace, and my circumstances are much like yours.

I am in IN, so we likely have similarly cold winters. I too have a modestly sized home and am wanting to heat the entire living area and have bedrooms closed off but with no heat. Unheated basement. Energy efficient windows. I too heat the bath up additionally for brief periods at bath/shower time.

I'm also home all day so we don't drop the temperature during the day.
Same here.

I've had about 6 different "space heaters" over the last 10 years, so have tried several types and sizes.
Same here.

What we've noticed that was different from all the other kinds of space heaters we've used is the even distribution of the heat. You can walk around this area of the house and the temperature only varies 1-3 degrees in any direction from the Sun Cloud.
I've read too that the heat is so well distributed from wall to wall and from floor to ceiling as well. I have slight cathedral ceilings in the main living area, (with 2 ceiling fans running), but know that the majority of the heat remains near the ceiling. I really noticed the heat at the ceiling level last winter when I was painting.

At 8¢ a kwt, it would only be $86.40 to run it 24/7 for 30 days. I'd be thrilled if a space furnace was able to heat my entire living area for that during the coldest months. I know too that it would be less than that due to the cycling on and off and that there would be warmer sunny days requiring less use than others.

I've researched several of the heaters, along with warranty, trial period, ease of repair, etc.

I think I may be ready to take the plunge and give it a try.
Given that it has worked so well for you Grainlady as a space furnace, I imagine it would work equally as well for me and my situation of using it as a space furnace.

Thanks again for your wonderful explanation of it all about how it has worked for you. Now it is just anyone's guess as to why the 6 "space heaters" were not capable of heating your home like the "space furnace" has.

Sue

Sue -

Yep, you have similar weather in Indiana to ours in Kansas. My sister lived there for 35-years and recently moved to Texas. In fact, she bought 2 Sun Clouds from here in town and had them shipped to her and that's all she uses for heat in her home. She said it's the first year she hasn't had extreme sinus problems and says it's because of the type of heat from the Sun Cloud.

We bought our first Sun Cloud when we lived in a townhouse with really high cathederal ceilings (we have 9' celings now) and had excellent results using it to replace the furnace (other than the very coldest days of the year or when we were gone on vacation).

We first thought the Sun Cloud would be SAFE supplemental heat in the living room. We were using one of those oil-filled radiators (which made me sick from the oily smell, and are dangerous if you touch them). It's amazing - all the heat from the Sun Cloud doesn't just go up - and I realize that's contrary to physics and can't explain why.

We don't use the ceiling fan when the Sun Cloud is on - it doesn't help and it's suggested NOT to use a ceiling fan to distribute the heat.

We purchased another Sun Cloud this fall thinking we would run 2 Sun Clouds in the living area during extremely cold weather and not use our furnace at all, but the gas fire place took care of that and we kept the second Sun Cloud in the master bath. Natural gas prices went down and the fireplace is more energy efficient than our furnace, so that was incentive to use it. We got the gas fireplace after going through an ice storm a little over a year ago, as an emergency heat source after being several days without electricity.

We've had unusually cold weather all this winter.

We pay 7.50 KWH.

-Grainlady

We purchased this heater, actually 2 of them. One for us and one for my MIL. Do Not waste your money. Our electric bill has gone up with it. We still use it on rare occasions.

Our electric bill has gone up with it.
Well, being an electrical appliance it would, if one was just adding it to additionally heat an area, without making any other adjustments to the houses heat. Savings could only be realized if one was able to lower the furnace thermostat, or better yet use the EdenPure as a "space furnace" as opposed to using it as a space 'heater" and not use anything else.

It is not a heater that would actually benefit everyone, any more than any other heater one could buy for $19.95 or so. It is all in how it is used as to whether or not one will see any savings on their electric or other means of heat...ie natural, gas, propane, oil, etc.

@Grainlady,

I was just told about the EdenPure heaters and my landlady actually had one she has used before hers is a Gen3 1500W I have used it two nights and two days and my square footage for my little apartment that's half the size I had was less then 700sq' so I thought if I get one that can cover double the space I'd be good all winter. This place has baseboard heaters and I know they will suck the juice and my electric bill will go sky high and my other place I never had to pay super high bills.

The first night the temperature in my car read 24F and my little place gets cold especially my room but by the my second night being last night it wasn't cold like it had been the night before.

Well so far I love it, it's used and I'm only trying it out with option to pay her $200.00 for it. I like what it's doing and I have it in a central area between living/dining and hall towards the bedrooms so it heats all rooms. So far I've had to actually turn it down some. I started it on the highest heat setting but turned it down after the first morning to less then half. The rooms are warm and comfortable.

my whole purpose is to eliminate heating cost and I hope this does for me.

thanks for your reviews even though it's based on a different heater brand.

The first thing to understand is that energy is energy, regardless of the source, and that it takes a certain amount of energy to maintain your home at given temperature. How much energy is a function of the inside temperature you desire, the outside temperature, how well the construction of your home keeps heat inside, and things like opening doors or windows. After that's it's basic math to determine the most cost effective way to heat your home. Any heat source that uses combustion (burning) like natural or propane gas, fuel oil, coal, wood, or even leaves loose some energy as the waste gases that are a product of combustion are vented to the outside. For example, modern gas heaters can be over 95% efficient which means that only 5% of the energy produced is wasted as heat loss with the flue gases. Electric baseboard heat or electric space heaters are even more efficient because there are no flue gases.

But that's only part of the equation, the other half is how much it costs you to buy that energy. For many areas in the country, electricity is more expensive than other forms of fuel which is why people use gas or fuel oil. So replacing one form of energy with another only makes sense if it costs less to buy that energy. That's one reason some people use wood if they have, for example, access to "free" wood. The cost of "buying" the wood is very low so the efficiency burning that wood (which is generally pretty low) doesn't matter.

A 1500 watt space heater uses 1500 watts (a measure of energy) of electricity. The only way that is cost effective is if the cost of buying those 1500 watts of electricity is less than buying some other form of energy because it still takes exactly the same amount of energy to heat that space.

A perfectly safe electric space heater can be purchase for about 1/10 the cost of the fancy units. And because watts is watts, they all put out the same amount of heat and consume the same amount of energy.

But would the baseboard heaters such more cost then the EdenPure Gen3?

As I said, watts are watts and the amount of energy required to heat a space is pretty much fixed. About 80% of energy required to heat (or cool) a space goes just to maintaining the temperature in the space and that includes everything in the space from furniture to cans of soup in your cupboard. People and their comings and goings account for the other 20%. Obviously if open and close the door frequently, some energy will be lost. Because human beings generate heat, 5 people in a room are going to require more energy to cool the room and less energy to heat it.

But to answer you specific question, if you turn off 1500 watt electric baseboard heater and turn on a 1500 watt space heater, you electric consumption ($) will be exactly the same. If you turn off a 2500 watt baseboard heater and use a 1500 watt space heater you're electric consumption will be exactly the same because the smaller heater will have to run longer to heat the space to the desired temperature. The only real way to save money with space heaters is to turn down the temperature in the entire house (or apartment) and then use a space heater to "spot heat." Of course, then you have to take around the house/apartment with you. That only really works if you pretty much stay in one or two rooms but in an apartment, there usually aren't too many rooms to begin with.

What I'm doing is leaving all baseboard heaters off. The Gen3 sits in a central area I keep it turned down low when I'm gone and home and it seems just right. I don't have to run it on high heat. And only medium if it gets real cold at times. But it's set for a lower heat and the heater will shut off and kick on when needed.

The reason I ask is everyone is telling me that this heater will save me on cost way more then the baseboard heaters in here. I can't afford a big bill every month.

Landlords like electric baseboard heaters because they're relatively inexpensive to install, are very reliable (there isn't much to go wrong with them), and pretty much require no maintenance. The drawback for the tenant is that they are usually the most expensive way to heat a home.

It might be beneficial to learn how to read your electric meter to see how much electricity you are actually using on a daily basis (rather than waiting for the bill). Your electric company should have information on their site on how to read a meter (it's not very difficult). Then you can compare electric usage between the baseboard and space heaters. Remember that the outside temperature needs to be the roughly the same for any comparison to be valid (we'll assume the rest of your electrical usage is about the same from day to day).

If you're looking to save electricity and haven't done so, switching from standard incandescent lamps to CFL or LED bulbs can definitely save money. Many LED bulbs are still pretty expensive but you can find generic 60 watt ones at your local big box home center for about $2 each. CFL's run about $1 each.

Most computers, televisions, and similar electronic devices use a small amount of electricity even when turned "off". Plugging them into a power strip with an on/off switch or just pulling the plug can save some money too. I figured I saved about $3-4 per month doing that.

Since you live in an apartment and your landlord isn't paying for the heat, you'll be hard pressed to talk him/her into better windows, insulation, etc. that can all save money. Window film helps and is pretty easy to install. Heavy drapes help too.

Yeah I thought about the window film already and your right on unplugging any electrical device when no being used or have it wired to a switch and then just flip it off. Not sure if the baseboard heaters run on a certain fuse or not. But mine are shut off.

You might want to check the amount of air that is coming in around the windows, sides, top, and bottom. I found that an amazing amount of cold was coming in there. I have an old house and any caulk used when windows were installed is long gone. The clear caulk will seal without being seen but it gives of a vinegar smell.

Yeah I can feel just coldness, no air but it's cold enough to almost seem like air.

When windows are installed there is usually a gap between the frame of the window and the actual framing of the building to allow for adjustment of the window. In years past that gap may not have been filled or just stuffed with fiberglass insulation. The current method is to use expanding foam which provides not only insulation but seals the gap preventing air from coming in. It might make sense to pull the trim around the window and see what you have in that gap.

Caulking is another good idea but won't take the place of insulation.

This isn't like that it's glass and metal set into the window. It's sealed it's just super cold. So I thought about that plastic you put on to help bloke some of the coldness from the glass.

Hard to believe so much time has passed and this topic is "new" again. All these years later.... Still using our Sun Cloud. Sun Cloud #1 (purchased in 2006) is used by our daughter for supplemental heat, Sun Cloud #2 by our son (primary heat in his small apartment), and we are using Sun Cloud #3. Kept them cleaned and replace a few bulbs, and that's all they have ever needed.

In 2011 we did NOT use the forced air gas furnace at ALL, just the Sun Cloud and on rare occasions the gas fireplace. That was the first year we didn't go someplace for a prolonged visit in the winter.

Since the Sun Cloud doesn't run continuously, and after checking the actual energy use with a Kill-A-Watt meter for 543 continuous hours, it cost about 2-cents per hour to run. We have also taken extra steps to keep the cold out of the house (bubble wrap on the windows, insulated Levolor binds, double-layered insulated drapes over the entrance door and the French Door going out to the deck, insulated plate covers on all the outlets and switches, etc.).

We exit and enter the house from the laundry room, which is closed to the kitchen. This helps maintain the "envelope" of heated (OR cooled air in the summer) in the house.

We now have a solar panel and use solar heat during the day and the Sun Cloud the rest of the time. This has proved a good addition for the comfort level of the house. The only time we use our gas furnace is when we are gone for any length of time to make sure the water pipes don't freeze. Just had the furnace serviced for the winter on Monday and the service tech said it looks new - and I told him that's because we don't use it (and it's 10-years old)!

And YES, your electric bill will increase (I don't think I ever indicated it didn't go up) because you are using additional electricity, but the gas bill is near summer lows. BUT, the gas furnace uses BOTH gas and electricity - but not sure how many watts the electric fan motor uses - especially if it's kept on constantly. I've tracked our gas/electricity use for years, so I know what effect different things have on energy use. What you can't put a price on is the comfort level of the Sun Cloud compared to a forced-air gas furnace.

-Grainlady

Houses have furnaces or other heating systems because people want to use them. Any expense can be avoided by not incurring it, that's hardly an insight.

Other than the many low income families who struggle to stretch limited dollars to meet their family's living costs, most people choose to not live in cold houses. Especially not in areas that have seasonal cold weather for months at a time.

All I know is I'm not running the baseboard heaters at all. Only the one EdenPure and I keep it low and everything is very comfortable not hot not cold and just right for me. I can't can't a real wTm house. I like it just a tad but cool but yet very comfortable too. I do not have gas anything like I did in New Mexico. So I'm not sure how much my bill will be and I'm not sure what the meter is outside for electric either.

There is no way to defy the laws of thermodynamics and if there were I'm sure it would have made the evening news by now. It simply takes certain amount of energy to heat and maintain the temperature in a structure. That's largely a function of the outside temperature, the insulative value of the structure, and the desired temperature.

The homeowner can take steps reduce energy costs by having better insulation (including decorative bubble wrap on windows), reducing air infiltration, using more efficient methods to heat, and (obviously) simply lowering overall the inside temperature. The homeowner can also use a cheaper source of energy by converting from, say, electricity to natural gas or using solar power. Of course, there one needs to consider the cost of the conversion when calculating the heating bill. Unfortunately the person asking the question lives in an apartment, which limits her options.

Doing nothing else and replacing, say 1500 watts of the electric baseboard heat with a 1500 watt space heater saves absolutely nothing.

Mike that's just the thing I have no idea what the watts for the baseboard heaters are. So I have no idea if I'll be saving a penny which sucks because I am on a lower budget.

And SnidelyWhiplash excuse me if you think most to all lower income families keep their house cold or colder. Don't lump me in with poor people I my not have much but I think I've done a pretty damn good Job being a stay at home mom for over 16+ years before I had to go out and work to support my teens and without Gov/State Help. It's not wwhat I wanted my kids to have it's just what happened. And my kids wished I still could have been home. But when you seperate and then 3 yes later divorce and are working 12+ shifts it sucks not being able to have home cooked meals on the table and homemade bread.

Im not offended I'm just saying be wise to how you word things.

I'm thankful you have your nice big home. I moved here last May because I wanted to be near my two girls. I took a place half the size of what I'm used to living in. It wasn't easy but that's me I sacrifice sometimes for the good of my kids and being close to them. Family is important to be.

I like living back in Oregon after so long being gone.

Thanks Mike for all your answered Questions.

Sorry, no offense was intended to you or anyone else. I think you misunderstood me.

I was commenting in respect to another who has said her spouse is employed but seems to think not using their furnace when they can afford is something to boast about. They choose not to (for some unknown reason) I said that except in cases where people are stretching limited funds to pay bills, most people wouldn't be happy choosing to be cold in their homes.

I'm not offended it's takes a lot for that in me. Just saying be wise in wording. And I'm staying warm. Just not sure what it's going to cost me yet.

Everyone has their own comfort level and are certainly entitled to spend their money as they see fit but I don't think too many of us enjoy being cold. Man's use of fire for heat (and cooking) goes back hundreds of thousands of years.

As I suggested before, it might be worthwhile to learn how to read your electric meter so that you can see what you're using on a daily or weekly basis. Another option, and Grainlady referred to this, is a "Kill-A-Watt" meter. Basically it's a mini-electric meter that plugs between whatever device/appliance you want to measure and the wall. They're available from your local big box home center for about $25 or you may be able to "borrow" one from your electric utility. By using the device and doing a little math, you can calculate exactly how much it costs you to run your portable heater. Because the energy required to heat a structure is dependent on outside temperature, you'll only get a "snap shot" of your electric usage, although it might be possible to approximate usage at other temperatures with a little research and math.

Charity B Brooks,

I was wondering how you have been making out with your heating bill? Are you seeing any savings?

Well I've only had one bill of 112. I bought the Eden Pure Gen3 1500W and it works great. I've turned on only the other heaters for a half hour when it's been like -7 below but otherwise I'm doing great so far. Her unit was a used one.

Eden Pure, would it break your heart to put rotary dials on the face of your heaters? The buttons on the one that I bought make NO sense at all. A rotary dial to set the temp level and another to adjust fan speed. Even your 'engineers' should be able to figure that out. As it is, my so called heater sits in the utility room waiting to be in a garage sale. I don't mean to be hateful toward you but you make something that is useless to me and others that can't understand the unnecessary complexity of the stupid buttons that seem to have NO effect on the operation of this (heater?).