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supra92

Sink choice help! -- Kindred Estate vs. Ticor

16 years ago

For those that recall my 1904 Southern Colonial home thread, my Minas soapstone slabs have FINALLY arrived from Brazil, at long last! But what this now means is that I have to choose my undermount sink before they can get going on fabrication and installation.

Here's the deal: I have a standard 36" sink cabinet with the following EXACT dimensions:

INSIDE SPACE: 34-3/8" wide by 22-1/4" deep. Now add 3/4" on all 4 sides for the width of each of the wood cabinet box sides.

Ticor 4-5D. 16 gauge, OD: 35-1/8" x 20-7/8" vs..

Ticor S105-8. 16 gauge, OD: 33-7/8" x 20-1/2" vs..

Kindred Estate UC2233/90RK/E. 18 gauge, OD: 33-1/4" x 22"

Question about "outside dimensions". If you look at the diagram of the 405D, it claims it needs 35-1/8", but is that truly the width from the left side of the left bowl to the right side of the right bowl, or does that include the overhangs that would sit on the 3/4" cabinet pieces? From the looks of it, the 35-1/8" line starts at the left at the side of the bowl (not the overhang), but then goes all the way to the right (including overhand)...

Here's the pic:

Given my cabinet dimensions above, would the 405D fit?

If not, the S105-8 and the Kindred both would definitely fit, but there's a huge price difference. The Ticor is 16 gauge and is available for about $260 with accessories from Galaxy, while the 18-gauge Kindred Estate is $685 cheapest. Why the huge discrepancy? The 18-gauge sink is 2.5x more expensive than the 16-gauge?

One last question. The 405D has a 21-3/8" main bowl and a 10-1/2" small bowl. The S105-8's bowls are a bit more equal: 17-3/4" main and 13" small. Is one generally preferable than the other? With the 405, I'd be concerned that the 10-1/2" small bowl might be so small as to be mostly unusable/annoying. With the S105-8, I'd be concerned that 17-3/4" isn't quite big enough for the main bowl, especially since the 405D's is almost 4" bigger.

Any and all comments/recommendations on these 3 sinks (or alternatives if you have them!) would really be greatly appreciated. My soapstone is ready to install, I just have to get the sink picked out and purchased so the fabricator can do the cuts!

Cheers,

Supra92

Comments (28)

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm staring at my Ticor 105-8(R) which arrived in less than a week and looks GREAT. What a DEAL especially considering it includes the strainers and the sink grids. I admit in the back of my mind I can't help worry there MUST be something wrong with it. "Why the huge discrepancy?"
    I almost don't want to read other responses to your question for fear it may turn out to be just another "too good to be true" story!

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have the Ticor 405D and love it. I also have a standard 36" wide sink base that the sink is installed in, so if I recall correctly the inside measurement of my sink cabinet was 34 1/2" wide by 22 1/4" deep. I'm pretty sure that the 35 1/8" measurement is from one outer edge of the flange to the other outer edge.

    The bowls fit easily within the top of the cabinet. The outer edges of the flange however are slightly wider that the opening. To make the sink fit in the sink cabinet I took a flat-bottomed router bit, set at 1/16" depth and routed out a portion of the top of each cabinet side.

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  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm waiting for answers to your question of 'fit' anxiously..good timing. I'm looking at the S405DR and have a 36" cabinet and the 351/8" width has me worried whether it will fit. I haven't taken out my old overmount yet so can't measure the inside. I like the large D shape to fit large pots/pans/woks and the not too small one is nice to dump your leftovers into the garbage disposal without messing up your other stuff. The 7" was a little too narrow, but I think the 10" will work out fine. You get a double w/o losing the very large bowl and 9" depth. I really need to know if this will fit...someone please answer...

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good to know that the 405D fit in your cabinet with inner dimensions of 34-1/2". Mine is 34-3/8", so that's nearly identical, and I've got a neighbour who is handy with woodworking and could carve out the upper portions of the cabinet siding with a router or dremel, etc.

    I know people pay good $$ for "big names" like Franke, Elkay, Kindred, etc... but I'm with remodel1958 --- $260-270 or so for a top-notch 16gauge sink with the strainers and grids? What is not to love? I'm not really one to get hung up on brands even on things like cars, so for something like a sink it matters even less. I just want the sink to be THICK, solid, and very quiet -- no clanging or hollow reverberating when pots hit the bottom, etc.

    Since the 405D may very well fit, we're back to one of the original questions:

    21-3/8" (L) and 10-1/2" (R) for the 405D bowls, or...
    17-3/4" (L) and 13" (R) for the S105-8.

    I really like the idea of a big main sink... but what can you really do with a 10.5" right bowl? Is it purely for peeling potatoes and vegetables, or maybe drying wine glasses? I just held out a ruler and 10.5" just seems so small I'm not quite sure what the use of it would be. On the flip side, I LOVE the prospect of a 21-3/8" main bowl -- space galore.

    In either scenario... which side gets the garbage disposal, generally speaking? My dishwasher is to the right of the sink (as is the norm, I believe).... so does the small right-hand sink get the disposal? But if you wash all your dishes in the larger left bowl, isn't that where all the larger foodstuffs from the plates would go into? Definitely don't want to make a mistake re: the placement of the garbage disposal...

    Eager to hear of any more thoughts on 405D vs. S105-8...

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, my DG is voting for the 17-3/4" + 13" bowl layout, over the 21-3/8" + 10-1/2" layout.

    The logic presented was that 17-3/4" is *more* than sufficiently large for any possible cake pan, cookie sheet, etc. that one would ever want to put in the sink, while the 13" right bowl is large enough to be useable for things other than just peeling potatoes, etc.

    She definitely felt that the 10.5" right bowl of the 405D was just too small, and while in agreement that the 21+" left bowl was nice, it was unnecessary and overkill.

    I definitely agree that on the right side, the 13" bowl is significantly more useful than the 10".... but I'm less convinced that 17-3/4" is large enough for a main left washing bowl.

    She also said the garbage disposal generally goes on the left side, in the large main bowl where one would be washing most of the dishes. Does this sound correct?

    Pretty sure it's down to the Ticor 405D vs. S105-8.... just have to decide...

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is news and confusing to me-- because I am so challenged with measuring, I had my contractor measure the interior of my sink cab and it is 34 1/2". When I look at the galaxy site for the ticor, for each sink it indicates the minimum cabinet width. I have been under the impression that if it requires a 35", that 34 1/2 cabinet is not going to work. Maybe as you say you can carve extra space out but my sink cab is right next to the dishwasher (which is probably a very typical layout) so wouldnt that be an issue?

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It really depends on how YOU do dishes. I use the small bowl mostly for draining "hand wash" pans & dishes... that I don't want to dry on the counter or dry and store immediately. I generally do everything else in the big bowl... therefore it makes sense for me to have the Garbage Disposal in the big sink since the little one usually has clean stuff in it. If you always put away your pans and hand wash stuff right away, and prefer to always use the second sink for peeling veggies, then get the GD on the small sink. People do their prep and cleanup differently, so you really need to think how you want to do it in your new kitchen.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    sheilaaus122 -- well, according to bob earlier, the 35-1/8" required by the 405D includes the flange/overhangs of the sink, meaning that the actual width of the two bowls combined is less. My cabinet wood pieces are 3/4" thick each. So for the right side, you might need to shave off about 2/16" to 3/16" of an inch on the inside so the top of the sink bowl will fit in as it curves outwards to the flange. I can't confirm this will work, but he said his cabinet interior measured 34-1/2", so it looks like it will. Definitely confusing looking at the Ticor site.

    nepool -- your point is valid, this may be another situation where there just is no "standard". Maybe some people have garbage disposals in BOTH :-) I'm leaning towards having the disposal in the left main sink, because I think i will be doing a lot of brief rinsing of plates before placing in dishwasher, which will contain things like small pieces of vegetables or chicken fat or etc. I don't envision a lot of potato peeling or carrot peeling into a sink, since generally I do that into a wastebasket. But even if I did (ie, rinse under water faucet and then peel into sink), odds are i'm doing it BEFORE a meal, when the sink is clean, and i can just use the left main sink with the disposal for it. I view the right sink as a place to manually rinse/dry items that are not dishwasher-safe, things like culinary knives, crystal, etc.

    I'm starting to lean towards the S105-8.... I just hope I won't regret a main left sink of "only" 17-3/4". Does anyone here have a sink where their largest bowl is 17-3/4" or larger and found it NOT big enough?

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree that it depends on your usage. I currently have dishwasher on left side of sink. 7" small sink, then 21" wide large one to the right. My garbage disposal is in the small sink. I scrape sm leftovers into the small sink and do further rinsing before it goes in dishwasher. I LOVE my large sink and wouldn't compromise it ...that's why I want the largest small sink(10" vs 7" but not 13") next time but want to be sure the S405DR will fit into 36" cab.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This might be a controversial suggestion, but have you thought of doing a large single bowl? My Ticor single bowl is about 21 inches wide, and they have a bigger single, as well. I can't imagine having something smaller - or even a double bowl (but this is a personal preference). 17" just doesn't seem big enough to me, but maybe you should measure your own pots, pans, serving dishes and other larger items to make sure. I have a large wok, large baking pans and cookie sheets that would never fit into a 17". I like to have some "wiggle room" so I can comfortably have room to soak a large pan at the bottom of the sink if necessary (without pinching my fingers getting it in and out).

    Another thing to think about is the depth of the main bowl of your sink -- how deep is each bowl and will the depth of the 17" bowl be useful to you?

    Like others on this forum -- I love my Ticor -- don't spend the extra money on the Kindred, there's really no need. Good luck!

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We have the 405D, but not yet installed. My DH likes to soak flatware before putting it in the DW and does this while he's rinsing/washing the other dishes and generally cleaning up the kitchen. He also uses that soapy water for rinsing his dishcloth while wiping off counters & table. In our old kitchen, we had a double bowl sink w/both bowls approx 17" wide. 17" was too big for soaking and it took quite a bit more water than the 10" will. In addition to the 17" being too big for soaking duty, it was also too small for washing pans, cookie sheets, cutting boards, etc.

    The plan is to put the GD in the big bowl b/c that's where dishes will be rinsed in.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Update:

    Our S405D sink was installed Friday in a standard 36" sink base....it fit perfectly! No scribing/routing of the cabinet needed!

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    supra92 - Are you still there? What did you decide on for a sink? I am having your same dilemma about the 21" Ticor S405D vs. the 17" S105. Is it worth going a little smaller on the larger sink to get a slightly bigger smaller sink? I typically do a little hand washing after each meal (things that I don't like to put in the dishwasher), and like to just let those dishes air dry.

    Buehl - How do you like your S405D so far? Do you ever feel the 21" sink is too big, or the 10" side is too small?

    Anyone else have feedback on either of these sinks?

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    buehl, I just have to ask... where do you buy the DH who soaks flatware, washes dishes, cleans the kitchen, etc. I couldn't find one listed on the Ticor site.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I worry more about the front to back measurement. If one has a raised bar behind the sink there might not be enough room for a faucet handle to fully operate. I was told somewhere not to consider a sink deeper (front to back) than 17" in order to allow enough room for front and back rail support in a 24 inch deep (front to back) cabinet.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just received my new 405DR and someone mentioned about the weight of 16 gauge. I actually thought it would feel heavier than it did. Is this a concern, maybe they sent me the wrong one!

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This may be a dumb question and I truly don't mean to hijack this thread, but if the flanges of the sink rest on top of the cabinet and especially if granite is used for the countertop, how would you deal with potentially having to replace the sink? It seems that if the outside of the flanges were within the inside width of the cabinet this would be a simple task, but if they rest on top, sink removal would require removing the entire countertop. Am I missing something? My apologies again for taking this off course, but the issue just dawned on me reading through this thread.

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, it's been a few weeks and I'm still contemplating between the Ticor S405D and the S105. I was hoping some time would clarify things for me.

    Since it hasn't, I'm going for another round of feedback here. Anyone have the S105 (17" basin and 13" basin) and wish they would have gone for the larger 21" basin of the S405D? Or have the S405 and wish the second basin (10") was larger like the 13" of the S105?

    Thanks. I need to decide really soon!!

    Still would like to hear what Supra92 ended up going with:-)

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi suzatwork,

    Sorry I missed your original post from June 3rd! It was a shock to pull up GW tonight and see this old thread from early April at the top of the list again! :-)

    So... I can answer your question. After much hemming and hawing and debating and mild cussing and indecisiveness, I wound up going with the Ticor S105-8. My debates back and forth were so inconclusive that I wound up putting a picture of both sinks (S105-8, 405D) side by side in a single JPEG on my webserver and showing them to about a dozen different friends/family members.

    About 8 or 9 voted for the S105-8, and about 3 or 4 voted for the Ticor. It truly came down to this: do the benefits of the huge 21" left sink outweigh the negatives of the small 10" right sink?

    In the end, to me, they did not. Now, as of two days ago, my countertop and S105-8 sink are installed! :-) I will say this much, after seeing the sink in-person, in place: it is plain as day to me that a 10" right sink would be very difficult to use in any normal fashion. Normal plates (often about 12" wide) would not fit whatsoever -- you'd basically be resigned to using it purely for soaking silverware or peeling potatoes (if you do that sort of thing in a sink), etc.

    Is the 17-3/4" left of the S105-8 big enough? I sure think so. It's significantly bigger than most any other non-single bowl sink I've seen --- most people I know seem to have 50-50 double bowls that are 15" wide or so. Not having used my sink yet, of course, I won't know for sure for a little longer.

    My thoughts at this point however --- I am very glad I got the S105-8, and I would probably get a huge single bowl sink before getting the 405D, simply because I can't picture that tiny 10" right side being useful in very many situations. Obviously a number of people here on GW have the 405D and love it so I am by no means slamming the 405D -- it just truly comes down to "how do you use your sinks?"

    Frankly and honestly? My biggest regret is not making the center kitchen cabinet wider -- if I could do it over again, I would have made the kitchen cabinet larger than 36", and instead gotten a 2-bowl that was like 22" on the left and 14" on the right (if something like that exists!) But my kitchen's shape is funky and I'd lose valuable counterspace if I did that, so, in the end, I'm really quite happy with the choice of the S105-8. The 17-3/4" left bowl seems perfectly large enough to me, and it is DEEP too, since it's an undermount sitting underneath a 3cm thick slab of soapstone.

    The one question you have to ask yourself, before getting the S105-8: "do I have to be able to lay most large cookie sheets completely flat on the bottom of my large sink for soaking purposes?" If so, the S105-8 is not for you. It seems there's a good number of cookie sheets that are 18-20" long, and so they will not lay flat in my sink. Does that irk me at all? Yeah, probably a little. They would fit and lay flat in the 405D. But... in the end, that positive didn't outweigh the negative of a really tiny right sink that is narrower than my 11" foot (!) How many times am I really going to have the need to soak a cookie sheet underwater like that? I use aluminum foil over my cookie sheets when i bake anyways, so having to soak crud off them is not really a concern.

    So, after this long-winded response that probably as you bored to tears :-) .... in the end, I'm glad I went with the S105-8 over either the 405D or a large single bowl, and am happy with the choice. But to me the ideal is to have a 42" sink cabinet and get the best of both worlds -- at least 22" on the left, and maybe 16" on the right, something like that. :-)

    I've promised sw_in_austin and a few others that I'll have pics up today or tomorrow, so you can see then for yourself what it looks like.

    Cheers,
    Supra92

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The rental we are staying in has a 9" and an 18" sink. The 9" is useless for anything except the garbage disposal and the 18" seems huge. I think people put the garbage disposal in the small sink because dishes are usually stacked in the larger sink so the garbage disposal is always available--you don't have to move things out to use it. I got the Ticor 105-8R and intend to put the disposal in the small side. My cookie sheets don't lie flat in the 18" sink we are using now, but they do fit in at a slant and so can be completely submerged for washing.

    A single sink may have worked for us, since we have a prep sink on the island, but my husband preferred two in the clean-up area. Since he is the clean-up man he gets to choose.

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with Sally123--those tiny side bowl sinks are just about worthless. Had one when we bought this house--besides be narrow, it was shallow (splashy), too. Garbage disposal was mounted in the small sink but it was too small to feel comfortable to use for peeling potatoes, carrots, etc. over so it ended up that the garbage had to be transferred to the small sink...

    I replaced that sink with a 60/40 style double sink & it works a lot better. But I'm going with a large single bowl with the remodel.

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well...contrary to peoples "thoughts" our 10" bowl in the 405D fits quite a bit...including most of my small to medium sized pans, small to medium mixing bowls, etc.

    We LOVE our 405D...the large bowl is big enough for all our pots & pans and we finally can fit all our cookie sheets, casserole dishes, etc, in one of the bowls (large one)!

    Here are pics of our 405D "in action:


    LOL Chewtoy! I know...isn't he great?! He even took his turn changing the messy diapers! My DH is a great husband and a much more involved and "nurturing" father than the majority of men I've met! As to cleaning up...I made it very clear when we got "serious" that since he hates cooking/doesn't mind cleaning up and I'm the opposite...that I would gladly cook...but that he had to clean up! No arguments! (We both "work outside the home" so we both have limited time.) The kids are now learning to help w/cooking & cleaning up too.

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Supra92 - SO glad to hear from you:-) Thanks so much for walking through your sink rationale for me. I will be waiting to see your pictures. Hopefully tomorrow??? I should place my order on Monday. I've been putting this off, and can't put it off any longer.

    My sink right now is 18" wide on the right, and only 7 on the left. So to me the 10" seems much bigger than what I currently have. I like your idea of printing both pictures out to 'analyze' further and also measuring closely some of the things that I tend to leave in my dry rack for air-dry.

    Buehl - thanks so much for the pictures! That helps too, in visualizing the reality of the basin sizes. Two more nights to 'sleep' on it:-)

    Anyone else want to pipe in???

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm now at the stage of having to pick a sink so I've been rereading this thread and would love to see pictures of the S105-8 if any has them.

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    See Supra92's "Wed, Jul 2, 08 at 0:24" post & picture a the bottom of this thread.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Thread: Sink reveal / edge profile questions -- Please Help Me

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks buehl.

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To attempt to answer an unanswered question above about how to replace the sink if it overlaps the tops of the cabinet sides:

    The sink is normally mounted (often just bonded) to the underside of the stone countertop and not to the tops of the cabinet sides. If only a thin slice of cabinet side is removed to clear the sink flange, then it will surely be a project to remove the sink.

    However, if the carved away part of the cabinet side is extended downward to a point such that the diagonal distance from cut out on one side to uncut cabinet side on the other side equals the sink flange width, the sink can be tilted down on that side for removal. This assumes that one can de-bond the adhesive all around the sink, particularly where it is over the cabinet side walls.

    There is also the issue of getting the now tilted sink out of the cabinet when the sink is wider than the cabinet is deep, and in framed cabinets, wider than the door opening. I haven't measured this, but I think that so long as the cabinet is empty of stuff, and the plumbing is not in the way, the sink can be rotated with one end down and then pulled up through the hole in the countertop or taken out through the door opening. I certainly would want to test removal techniques before deciding on the clearances I needed around the sink flange.

    kas

  • 15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What did I get?

    After much deliberation I ordered the 405DR. It was plumbed in yesterday and I absolutely LOVE it! I washed up after supper last night, and the left 10" side was able to easily accomodate air-drying the few items that I don't put through the dishwasher (including a wood cutting board and a cookie sheet). And I LOVE the huge right side. I have the sink grates in both and like how it keeps things from touching the bottom of the sinks. I can hide dirty dishes in it and still use the garbage disposal and faucet for other things. Plenty - o -room!!!

    Thanks so much everyone for helping me through this thought process. What really helped was drawing up both sinks on large butcher paper and comparing them side-by-side. I even got out some baking sheets, etc. and played 'make believe' a little bit:-)

    Think I'll go find something to wash now!!