A lot of people here will say, "no, do it yourself" but those are typically people who have bought and sold many properties and are familiar with the whole process, having been introduced to it with a realtor's help.

My thinking is that if you have to ask, the answer will be yes. Those who don't need a realtor's help know who they are.

That said, get a realtor that will listen to you and submit your negotiations the way you want them made, and will let you drive the decisions. If you have a realtor do everything for you, you won't learn much and furthermore you might wind up with a deal that doesn't really put your best interests first.

More important than a Realtor, get a good real estate attorney! Have the attorney review the offer as well as any contract you may submit or sign.

What does the attorney do? Do I have them draw up an offer? Or do I just make my offer to the selling agent & they do a contract that I then have reviewed by our attorney? When we sold our last house it was without a realtor, but the buyers mortgage lender's wife did all of the contract work for free since she's a realtor. Worked out very well.

I am fairly confident with my own skills - I've bought & sold several properties - with & without realtors. Really what I want is more information on comps in the area. Not that comps mean anything in this rapidly sliding market. I think my best argument for a lower price is the nicer house in the same area.

Depending on the state, the realtor works for the seller if your state even allows dual agency. Also depending on your state, the buyer's agent you sign with may/may not work for you. YMMV (notice I said depending on the state......)

Personally, I'd never buy/sell real estate without an attorney to check the contracts, facilitate closing, make sure folks get checks, keep on top of the title company, etc. Regardless of how many transactions you have done, a good real estate attorney is worth the fee.

As far as the comps, if you submit a much lower offer one of two things will happen: The "insulted buyer" that does not counter or a counter that is reasonable. Now, you want to know what is reasonable, correct? Get an appraisal.

Yes, I agree a good attorney is worth every penny! We have one. I just have never gotten her involved in a buying transaction. The contracts are pretty standard here, I believe. Every one I've seen in the last several years (ours, parents, siblings) has been the standard "One to Four Family Residential Contract" issued by the TREC.

I'm planning on basing my offer on the other house $/sq ft that's for sale. Seems like a good place to start.

It's a VERY small, rural town. I will check to see who's available there to do an appraisal. I probably won't even hire an inspector, but it's a very small house & I can easily see all of the mechanicals and am satisfied that everything works and was built to code. I have not been satisfied with my last 2 recent inspections - one a local guy, the other from a big nationwide company. I had to point out things to both of them & neither of them noted anything I hadn't already seen. Also, I think that will be a "good thing" as a part of my offer to - basically as-is. The sellers are elderly, it's not their primary residence & I'm not going to "nickle & dime" them for repairs.

My vote is to get yourself a buyers agent. It will not cost you a penny. (The seller is paying the same commission whether or not you have an agent representing you, so why not have someone who will be on your side. There is much more than negotiating the offer that needs to be done. As far as price per sq foot. I own lake property, it has very little to do with price per sq foot and more to do with how many waterfront feet you have, access, and/or view.

Lawyers research (among other things) property issues, and in a rural area,the likelihood is a lot stronger that at some point your ppty either was encroached on by neighbours (and could now be in danger of being lost due to squatter's rights), or that what you think is your ppty really belongs to someone else.

Thank you Linda117 for your reply. Luckily there are two very similar properties for sale at the same time for me to compare.

The shoreline footage is about the same. The views & access are good & the neighboring properties at both locations are nice. I don't think I could find a closer match. I'm just more interested in the smaller/ fixer-upper house. The other house has been on the market for a lot longer too.

Lucy - thanks for the information about what an attorney would do. Wouldn't any property issues come up in the survey & title process?

If we go thru with an offer, I'll definitely have our attorney review the contract. At that point, can't she resolve any issues that come up?

Also, all of the lots are basically the same size so it would be unlikely that it would have been encroached on - but it's a good point!

I'm afraid that my buyer's agent cost me plenty a pretty penny. His focus was to close the deal & mine should have been for him to try to get me a house at a good price. My buyer's agent was ineffective & gave bad advice. I would use the attorney by all means, if I could re-do it.
Susan

Susana, I've seen you mention several times that your buyers agent cost you plenty. Could you elaborate on what happened? How was he/she ineffective and what bad advice did they give?

"I'm planning on basing my offer on the other house $/sq ft that's for sale. Seems like a good place to start."

Don't forget that the lake-shore frontage is a very large component in the price of both these houses. The property alone may be worth as much or more than either of the houses. Because that's so, it would be expected that the a smaller house having the same frontage as a larger one would cost more per square foot.

Lake frontage is normally valued at so much per front foot for comparable lake lots (similar location, similar view, etc). You should try to find out what frontage on this lake currently sells for --ie, $1000/front foot or whatever. Multiply that by the number of front foot each of these properties has and subtract that from their respective asking prices.

Then divide the resulting sum for each property by the respective house square footage and this will give you a rough idea of whether the asking price for the smaller house is too high. Of course, you also need to take the age and condition of each house into account, but with lakefront property, the value of the front footage is by far the most important factor.

I was searching for a property in a very popular location in our chosen town. My family wanted a home that would accomodate two families, and these were few & far between. We had been searching for almost a year. There was very little inventory. Some properties in this location had sold extremely fast, and some didn't.

We found a property that seemed to be ideal. We were planning to pay cash for the property. The buyer's agent advised us to make our purchase offer with a release of the appraisal contingency (because he felt there would be a lot of competition for the property). I did it (and immediately regretted it).
As is common in these transactions, decisions had to be made quickly.
Although the house had a basically good inspection report, there were a number of things that would require repair, replacement and updating, so I believe that rather than offering a good cost analysis and proof that the house price was sound, my agent steered me to go ahead & pay probably a lot more than I should have on this property.
Of course, I am responsible for all decisions made, but in retrospect, I wish that my agent had been more objective and knowledgeable instead of just in looking at getting the deal to close and getting his commission.
I would advise any buyers to never release a contingency upfront. That was bad advice & the agent admitted that after the fact.
On the other hand, we own the property now and I think that it will be good for our family. But in rehashing all the facts, I probably could have saved $15,000-$20,000 if I had followed my gut (or I might not have gotten it at all).
Susan

I don't know about your state but MA has all the cities listed with assessed values and purchase prices. You can look it up by street town or even individual address.
I found it through the Boston Globe website.
link:
http://csc-ma.us/PropertyContent/jsp/Home.jsp?Page=1

ALso the Banker and Tradesmen online will tell you the purchase price and address but won't give a description of the house (Beds?Baths?Sqft?) unless you pay a small fee.

House sales should also be kept at some city office and you can request them. I think it is free but you may have to fill out paperwork and wait for the red tape. Ours are at city hall but you have to wait few weeks for yourrequest to be processed. These reports are pretty detailed as they are used to assess the value for taxes.

Hope this helps.

My vote is to get yourself a buyers agent. It will not cost you a penny. (The seller is paying the same commission whether or not you have an agent representing you, so why not have someone who will be on your side.

Linda117, how do you know the listing agreement?
The seller may not pay the same commission if the house is sold by the listing agent, and may easily accept a lower offer presented by the listing agent, so that buyer's agent may cost her a "pretty penny".

Cmarlin, this could be true, if the listing agent has negotiated a lower commission if she sells the house herself, however, do you really think the agent in that case is interested in getting the buyer the best price and terms on that house? No, most likely she just wants the sale. A buyers agent can easily negotiate a lower price to cover the lower commission, but no one really knows that going in do they?

Our state does not track sale prices & the appraisals are generally a bit low - thank goodness. There is really no place to find this info other than the MLS & I've yet to figure out how to crack that nut.

I still think if the sellers agent doesn't have to split the % that they'll look favorably on a direct offer with no other agent. Sheesh. The more I read on this topic, I think realtors have all these little rules that you & I are not supposed to question. To me, if I make my best offer - the seller can take or leave it. I'm not into the haggle. I have no emotional tie to real estate. There's no property that I HAVE to HAVE. There's always another one if this one gets away.

I still think if the sellers agent doesn't have to split the % that they'll look favorably on a direct offer with no other agent. Sheesh. The more I read on this topic, I think realtors have all these little rules that you & I are not supposed to question.

There are no rules that a realtor doesnt want you to question. This forum is full of realtors giving their opinions and advice.

Most listing agents will not complain if you want to buy his/her listing. In this business it doesnt get any better than that. However, there are plenty of listing agents that will not do dual agency and its getting more and more common not to do it, in fact, I think its even illegal in some areas (Colorado?). Personally, I think in a sellers market, you probably have a little bit of an edge in landing the property using the listing agent, however, in a buyers market, using a buyers agent is a huge benefit.

Well, when I sold my mom's house in Calif., my listing agent bent over backwards trying to set up a dual agency situation. The first one didn't work (but when he was trying to make it happen, he lied to me about whether a previous offer had been accepted -- he'd probably call it stalling. He did in the end represent the buyers on this property -- and got the double commission. I would find it highly doubtful that a listing agent would not accept dual agency -- my realtor would move all mountains to make it happen (and I doubt that he was the exception).

I did try to be fair to the buyer's agent, I was working with for about 6 months. I felt that he had done a good job during the six months we had been looking. The house we wanted to buy was FSBO & we included this agent. I sure wish I could say that he represented us so well & we really needed this buyer's agent. Unfortunately, he was ineffective & gave us bad advice. The irony was that the house was FSBO & we didn't need any agent at all.
Susan

I would find it highly doubtful that a listing agent would not accept dual agency

Trust me, there are plenty that will not do it. It leaves you as the agent incredibly liable if anyone is not happy. I believe Berniek said it was illegal in more states than it is legal. In NY it is still legal, but with the last few continuing ed classes I have taken, the instructors have been saying to steer clear of it and they don't practice it themselves. I believe it will eventually be done away with in NY also.

Dual Agency is alive and well in California. I'm involved in one now.
Any agent is always liable if anyone is "unhappy". I know some agents don't like it, but I'm happy with it. I've never had an agent refuse a dual agency.
I still don't see the benefit of a buyer's agent in this market.
Linda117, I am not concerned if the dual agent is interested in getting the buyer the best price and terms on a house. As a buyer, I make my own offer, the agent's job is to present it to the seller. He wants that seller to accept it so he gets both ends. He knows I will walk, if I don't get my terms, he will lose that extra commission, so I'm guessing he is interested in getting the best price and terms.

Cmarlin, that is great for you, however, alot of buyers don't make their own offers and look for their buyers agent to suggest or help them with what a good offer would be. IF you search this forum, you will see something I posted long ago. I had a buyer who was willing to pay $40,000 more for a house than it was worth. He was basing his offer on the listing price. I knew because of experience with our market that the house was overpriced. Had he gone to the listing agent, he would have over paid. Instead, we found him an almost identical house for $40,000 less. That is the positive side of how a buyers agent is supposed to work for you.

" Dual Agency is alive and well in California. I'm involved in one now."

The facts say otherwise. I don't think it's doing well at all according to NAR. Dual Agency consistently ranks as one of the most legal problems for the consumer and agents. Here is just one fact from their Appendix 2: Legal Research and Survey Data, Table 19 from 2007.

Rankings of Current Issues

1.) Issue: Agency: Dual Agency;
% Ranking in Top 3 Today: 76.32%;
Average Rank: 8.36;
Std. Dev.: 2.15;
No. Resp.: 76;

I am not concerned if the dual agent is interested in getting the buyer the best price and terms on a house

This would be a good way for the agent to loose his license. A dual agent is not supposed to get the buyer the best price and terms, he is supposed to be impartial and fair to both the buyer and the seller.

susana_2006 I would find it highly doubtful that a listing agent would not accept dual agency --

Last house I sold the listing agent I chose told me straight out he does not do dual agency. When I asked what he does if someone calls the number on his sign, he said he recommends someone in his office if they potential buyer doesn't have their own agent. I am in NYS where dual agency is legal but almost unheard of in my area. It appears that, in my area at least, the headaches of dual agency along with the possible lawsuits and negative word-of-mouth aren't worth the extra dollars to many agents.

I am not concerned if the dual agent is interested in getting the buyer the best price and terms on a house

This would be a good way for the agent to loose his license. A dual agent is not supposed to get the buyer the best price and terms, he is supposed to be impartial and fair to both the buyer and the seller.

You disagree with me because you don't understand my point. LOL

I don't have the need for a buyers agent suggest to me a good offer price, I can do that myself with dual agency.

BUBBA (buyers unrepresented by a buyerÂs agent), that's what I'll call them from now on.

You disagree with me because you don't understand my point. LOL

I am not concerned if the dual agent is interested in getting the buyer the best price and terms on a house

Cmarlin, Nope, I disagree with you because your point is wrong. Im more convinced now than ever that you dont understand buyer agency at all since this is not the job of the dual agent. In fact its illegal, but you just Keep on, keepin on.... LOL

Bernie, you can't just call them "unrepresented buyers"?

You have to make up an acronym that's the same as an insult?

caulk_king wrote: "Sheesh. The more I read on this topic, I think realtors have all these little rules that you & I are not supposed to question. What does the attorney do? Do I have them draw up an offer? Or do I just make my offer to the selling agent & they do a contract that I then have reviewed by our attorney?

Thats what we did. We made our offer and had our real estate attorney draw up our own contract. He suggested we use this instead of the standard one because it would better protect our interests.

If you don't already have a RE attorney sometimes you can find a good one at a bank, they can probably help with the appraisal as well. I would call a mortgage lender in that town (or closest large town) and ask for a couple of names the lender has worked with in a closing. (Ask for the branch manager at the mortgage company - and tell them you are paying cash so you don't have to listen to a sales pitch. Mortgage lenders work with attorneys all the time. They know which ones do their homework and which ones are a pain to deal with, etc. Nobody wants to deal with the latter, so their recommendations might be helpful.

The following is something I picked up in a real estate forum. I don't have the link but it may be helpful:

"You might want to do a couple of things to help you feel better. Go to the city/township clerk's office (or better, check online - do a google on the town's name and "government" and see if they have Assessments listed anywhere on the official town website.) With nothing but an address, I can go online and see the info in the official records about the lot, the owners, the taxes, the buildings on the lot including sq footage (at least as much as was done with permits - LOL!) and the info on previous sales. I can often get a drawing of the perimeter of the house with measurements. There is often a search for comparables, or a listing of recent sales. At worst, you will have to do a search on the addresses of the recent sales to see the sizes of these buildings and the selling prices. From that you can do a cost-per-square-foot calculation and see if you really did overpay compared to recent comparables. I will guess that you will find that your house cost was not out of line with other recent sales."

One last thing. Read the thread "Just don't want to use a buyer's agent"? Some of the information there might be useful for determining is you need a realtor or not. ;)

Thanks for the information dreamgarden. We do have an attorney that can handle it for us - but I'm wondering if the seller would go with our version of a contract or would prefer their realtors standard version. If I was a seller with an agent I'd want them to handle the contract - I'd figure I'm paying enough in commission to have them handle it. Good idea about finding a local attorney thru a mortgage company. Never thought of that. I've been reading the other, very active, thread that you mention. Man this is a heated topic!

berniek - Why resort to name calling? I guess you don't know that BUBBA can be an offensive term to people from the South. It's not funny. It's insulting. Got any more clever anacronyms for other offensive words?

How about RETARD: Realtors Exaggerating & Talking Around Responsible Decisions?

My apologies to anyone that would take this seriously. It's not how I feel personally - just trying to make a point that I think berniek went overboard. It's not nice to group people together under a derogatory name. Never has been. Never will be.

"Bernie, you can't just call them "unrepresented buyers"?
You have to make up an acronym that's the same as an insult?"

I guess you never lived in the south or in Germany?
I was born in Germany and have lived in Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas, and here is one definition of BUBBA:

The boy's name Bubba \b(ub)-ba\ is of German origin, and its meaning is "boy". More commonly a nickname, usually for someone rather large. In American slang, it can also mean "brother".

Yes, berniek, and retard can also mean to check; slow the growth or development of; cause to move more slowly or operate at a slower rate. See my point? Isn't playing with words fun? If we were immature we could do this all day. A label is a label. Nuff said.

"Yes, berniek, and retard can also mean to check; slow the growth or development of; cause to move more slowly or operate at a slower rate. See my point? Isn't playing with words fun? If we were immature we could do this all day. A label is a label. Nuff said."

Interesting that you would interpret an acronym to some kind of retard, I never thought of it that way. Thanks for your negative insight and dragging BUBBA into where it doesnÂt deserve to be in.

berniek wrote-"BUBBA (buyers unrepresented by a buyers agent), that's what I'll call them from now on."

For those of you who are unfamiliar with the different meanings of the acronym "BUBBA":

1. The boy's name Bubba \b(ub)-ba\ is of German origin, and its meaning is "boy".
2. A white working-class man of the southern United States, stereotypically regarded as uneducated and gregarious with his peers.
3. Slang. an uneducated Southern white male; good old boy; redneck.
4. BUBBA-buyers unrepresented by a buyer's agent

"Most people, whether in the real estate industry or not,have heard of the FSBO--A For Sale By Owner seller. The acronym has been used for quite awhile as there has always been a segment of the market that chose to sell their home directly to a new buyer. But, there's a new acronym being used by Realtors these days--BUBBA or Buyers Unrepresented By a Buyer's Agent. It is making it's way into the real estate agent vocabulary because this market segment is growing.

In 2006, according to the National Association of Realtors 2006 Profile of Home Buyers and Sellers, nearly a quarter of all sales (23%) were BUBBAs. Although many of these home buyers did work directly with a builder or at a sheriff's foreclosure sale, 9% purchased directly from the home seller.

The internet is probably the most contributing factor to the growth of this buying segment. Buyers are certainly more educated--shopping on-line for as many as 6 months prior to making their house purchase. The homes are listed on the web. There are guides as to how to purchase a home. The whole process is less mysterious and seemingly simple that many self-educated buyers are foregoing working with a Realtor. "

A link that might be useful:

Real Estate-Frequently Asked Questions
www.buyerstaxi.com/faq.htm

You disagree with me because you don't understand my point. LOL
I am not concerned if the dual agent is interested in getting the buyer the best price and terms on a house

Cmarlin, Nope, I disagree with you because your point is wrong. Im more convinced now than ever that you dont understand buyer agency at all since this is not the job of the dual agent. In fact its illegal, but you just Keep on, keepin on.... LOL

You really don't understand me, I know it is not the dual agent's job, I again, for the third time will make the point to you that I do not want, care for, or expect the dual agent to advice me on pricing. Actually I do not rely on any agent to give me the correct offer price. Get it, I am comfortable using dual agency because I don't want that service, not because I am ignorant of the duties of the dual agent. Each time I have a dual agent transaction, I read and sign a document telling me the terms of dual agency. I do understand dual agency, we just disagree about the use of it.
I'm keeping on real good, closing soon on a dual agency triplex that I really like.
Thank you for your good wishes!
Hope you have a healthy and prosperous new year!