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abbey_cny

? remove wood siding b4 replacing with vinyl

abbey_cny
14 years ago

I plan on having my 1950 split level resided in the spring. I have pretty much decided on certaineed vinyl shakes, and I will be getting estimates from several companies that have done work for me previously. While they were doing their previous work they brought up replacing the siding, so I have had general discussions on what their plans would be. Two of the 3 companies all insist it is not necessary to remove the present clapboards, they would just side over them. The third company highly recommends removing the existing wood, putting on tyvek and then residing. Of course that would be more $, and I am not adverse to that if that is the best way to go. However I am confused as all 3 companies have done excellent work for me before, so why such different opinions? The appearance of the peeling paint on the house now appears to indicate a moisture problem? so I am concerned I could be covering up a problem with just putting the vinyl siding over everything. Has anyone done this and regretted not removing the old siding? Just trying to get some opinions based on real life experiences. And sorry this is so long! Thanks. Abbey

Comments (8)

  • shadetree_bob
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Personally with siding that old I would want to remove it just to be able to check out the condition of the wall behind. If you remove it and don't find any problems, at least you will know for certain that there are no problems. The addition of the tyvek has to be a plus.

  • chrisk327
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would think it really depends on what is behind that siding as to whether it should be considered to be removed.

    for example- I have a 1930's cape style house. It currently has 2 layers of siding on, origional wood clapboard followed by furring strips with aspestos shingle.

    The wood clapboard is fastened to the studs. there isn't any sheathing. If I were to replace my siding, there would really be 2 options. remove the aspestos, and side over the clapboard or just side over the aspestos.

    I personally, wouldn't want 3 layers of siding, as it can start lookin funny. However, if there were sheathing under the clapboard, I don't know what I would do.

    as for siding in general, as for some recently sided homes they did and ask for details as to what they went over for you to judge whether it would be acceptable or not.

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  • dave777_2009
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If there is a moisture problem - removing the existing siding and putting on tyvek - will not solve it.

    Paint does get old, and wood breathes. So all paint eventually blisters from wood. An actual moisture problem is either coming from a leaking roof, bad gutters, etc. or from bad siding. (water getting in under the siding more at top, and working down...)

    If a moisture problem exists caused by the siding - replacing, or recovering the siding will fix it. Other than that - the moisture problem (if one exists) would still exist if it is caused by one of the other two I mentioned.

    I know of THOUSANDS of installations where vinyl siding has been installed over wood siding with blistered, peeling paint. With absolutely ZERO problems. These homes exist all over in the Seattle area. My sister has one. It was 'resided' with vinyl about 15 years ago...

    My only concern with residing over vinyl - are insects and bugs. If you have some sort of wood eating infestation going on in your siding - obviously covering this up with vinyl clapboard will not solve it. So, I get wary about homes where I see woodpeckers for instance - looking for dinner in the siding...

    But if you don't believe you have a pest problem - you would probably be very happy just having it sided over.

    Now, if your going to go to all the trouble of having the exisiting siding (clapboard) removed; why not install James Hardi product? They make a WIDE variety of product, stuff that looks like cedar shake, stuff that looks like wood boards, etc. All of it is made from cement, and is virtually indestructable, and is extremely fire resistant.

    I've purchased HardiBacker tile board to WELD on... because I needed a fire resistant surface. If you use stainless steel nails when attaching - you can nail the boards or cement shakes up with the nails 'visible' and just paint over them. No rust spots. If you want to use non stainless - you can always blind nail up the product.

    So - I would just use vinyl if I was going to reside over the product which is on your house. But if your going to remove the current siding - use Hardi-backer siding. It is extremely durable, and extremely easy to repair if somehow it got broke. (Like a baseball hitting it hard - breaks some vinyl siding, which is difficult to repair.) Cement board you can just mix up a little bit of cement, and patch the hole. No Joke.

    And although everyone states it must be painted (so I guess it must) - I have seen this stuff last quite some time without any paint. It is extremely durable.

  • dave777_2009
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Quick add too:

    Rarely is Tyvek or similar housewrap installed properly. Most installers use staples to install this and similar house wrap products.

    However - Dupont expressly states that to have any type of moisture warranty with Tyvek - it must be installed using capped nails. These are little plastic washers that are fitted over the nail, as the nail gun fires it into the Tyvek and underlayment.

    I had to purchase a special nail gun which holds both nails and plastic buttons - to be able to properly install Tyvek. And I see it being improperly installed all over with staples. Which does not provide proper moisture barrier according to Dupont. And Dupont could not even direct me to where I should purchase the nail gun, or the plastic washers for a proper install. They just have the 'install rules' on their website.

    Tyvek likes to fly around (acts like a huge sail) and get quite loose, if not properly tied down. With staples - this requires thousands of stapels all over - otherwise the wind will rip it from the staples quite easily. With the plastic washers over the nails - you only need 1 nail every 18 - 24" and it will not come off. A LOT less holes, etc. And each hole is moisture sealed because of the plastic button.

    And Dupont requires you to use special Tyvek tape... which mostly seems to be clear packing tape, with the Tyvek logo on it!

    Anyway - I use that stuff. The stupid nail gun jams a lot more, with putting in the plastic cap washers and the nails. It is a lot slower than just normal nailing. Probably why so many installers do not use it.

    But you might want to ask your potential contractor if they are going to be using staples or button washers on the nails to install the product. You might also wish to peruse Dupont's website, on the proper way to install Tyvek, and their warranty when properly installed.

  • macv
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    DuPont offers a moisture warranty? When did that happen and where can I find it? I believe all they cover is the integrity of the material itself.

    It has never made sense to me to use capped nails to put up a plastic weather/air barrier and then nail through it a thousand times when installing the siding. And it makes little sense to tape the lap joints if the edges aren't sealed at the sills and top plates (like they do in the DuPont tests).

    I have never seen any system that substantially improves upon #30 asphalt saturated building felt. Many say the felt is actually better but there's no point in raising that debate since the issue will never be settled.

    If you are adding new siding of any kind and not replacing the window trim, how would you seal and flash the weather/air barrier at the openings? It's an interesting detailing challenge.

    I thought the major feature of vinyl siding was that it completely covered the old bad siding and trim for short money at the expense of the architectural detailing (if there was any). The idea of carefully and expensively integrating it into the building fabric seems odd to me. But maybe I'm just out of touch with these new plastic building systems. I'll bet you that they will all be banned within 10 years and only biodegradable liquid barriers will be sold, and building felt.

  • abbey_cny
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    thanks for all of the info! I did have to have the roof replaced last year so perhaps that was where the moisture was coming from. No evidence of woodpeckers or bugs, so I am good to go there. Would love hardiboard but the expense of removing the existing siding AND hardiboard might be a too much for the budget. I will inquire further when I talk to my prospective contractors. Thanks again.

    Abbey

  • dave777_2009
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Macv - You raise some interesting points. Especially the actual installation (nailing) of siding and the resultant holes.

    But rules are rules. I try to follow them, but mostly the manufacturer's have these rules to protect themselves, and not the acutal consumer.

    I like 30# felt. But apparently Tyvek breathes easier. Not real sure. I don't like installing Tyvek. But it's entire purpose is as a membrane - to allow moisture VAPOR to pass thru - while prohibiting water liquid. I tend to agree that all this stuff is probably going to be outlawed down the road. After all - we all know the companies making this stuff are totally evil, and are cauing...

    Thought you made some good points.

    Abbey - if you truly would like to have hardi siding - this is easily installed. Not sure your age, or physical condition.

    A 12' board, 6.25" wide is just $5. A same 8.25" wide is $6

    These are for unpainted lap siding boards. You can purchase them pre-painted; they have thin pieces of plastic between them for proetection, and the paint will get damaged during installation. But they have 'touch up' kits for the install. I prefer to paint afterwards. Much easier. (Have to have the correct weather.) Prices above were from HD. You can purchase from a local lumber yard, and special order a bunch of various product. You can also special order more varied prodcut from Lowes, or Home Depot.

    Anyway - installing siding is not difficult if you are not afraid of heights. Probably your major cost quotations is in Labor... Have a couple of active friends? Throw a couple of pizza parties, and learn a new skill...

    Cement siding is hard on the health. A lot of people use a skill saw (I've used a miter saw equipped with a cement cutting blade) - but this does produce dust. You NEED to wear a dust mask when cutting. I also own a siding cutting shear - expressly designed to cut cement board without ANY dust. But that is an expensive tool - so we won't go there. For a reasonable cost you can also purchase a hand held cutting shears or scissors. You can get one of these designed to 'add on' to a normal drill... Or purchase a small portable diamond blade tile cutting saw (around $35) at HD; and make small cuts in the siding with that... You need diamond blades to cut this stuff.

    A Siding Gaugae (SA902) by PacTool international (1-800-297-7487) is a beautiful tool for not much, ($76 from Ace Hardware) that makes installing siding almost a 1-person job. Sets it at the right height, etc. Made expressly for Hardi board. This is a quality, precision tool. WORKS, and works well!

    You cannot hand nail Hardi siding. Per James Hardi you can hand nail it. Guess I'm weak or something. I definitely do not recommend 'hand nailing'. Just impossible.

    So you would need a nail gun. An excellent one would be: Max CN565S. This tool allows you to easily operated it as a 'single shot' rather than 'bump'. And it is much easier not to hurt yourself and more accurate placing of the fasteners - when not being used as 'bump'. Bump places a nail each time the tool strikes the siding. Since as the tool fires the nail - some recoil occurs - in bump you can easily jam the tool trying to place 3 nails at the same location...

    You would need a small air compressor for this tool. Readily available for less than $100; or pay a little more.

    You should also use stainless siding nails. This eliminates rust stains later on. And you don't have to 'blind nail'. (The siding covers up the nails during blind nailing.) This makes it easier (since you can see the fasteners) to remove siding down the road for replacement, or to get into a wall or something. The stainless won't rust and are easily painted. If you blind nail - it also looks good (some would say better); and you don't necessarily have to use stainless. But it is still good to use stainless. (Rust considerations/Stain). But it is much harder to remove siding without damaging it for later work down the road...

    You can use regular Tar Paper instead of Tyvek. Tyvek has supposed advantages, and has definite disadvantages. Blows like a huge sailboat in the slightest wind. Have to use thousands of staples to keep it from blowing around, unless you use the plastic button washers for the nails previous mentioned. Kind of your choice. Tar paper is tried and true. Tyvek works, and I use it; but not real sure that it has a huge advantage. It's purpose is as a functional membrane, which allows VAPOR to pass thru - but stops WATER.

    A Tyvek nailing gun would be: HITACHI NV50AP3. You can use stainless siding nails in this tool... Have to also purchase the plastic buttons.

    You have to use this gun SLOWLY. If you don't watch it - all the time - invariably a button tab won't be cut off, and when you move the gun to a different position for the next nail - a whole stream of plastic buttons comes pouring out - which you must then get back into the gun... Pain in the job.

    Anyway - this probably all seems like a huge amount. It really isnt! All of these tools are readily available on the internet. ToolBarn, etc. Reasonable prices. You can then sell them as almost brand new - only used on one job - on ebay or craig's; and recoup some of your investment. You would probably save a bundle, and learn a bunch, and have a couple of fellowship parties all at the same time! Maybe you and a couple of your friends would like to reside your houses. Make a round table tool investment, and help each other out...

    To get up High on your house, you can purchase some Siding Jacks for around $60. These are metal jacks which you attach to the side of your house, and you makes up some plank boards, and a railing; and then the jacks hoist you up the side of your house as you side. You 'pump' or jack them up. I'm not talking about the ones which cost thousands. You can get what I'm talking about from a Box store... and they work extremely well.

    If your at all interested in doing this job yourself - I would recommend Black&Decker "The complete guide to roofing siding & trim" $25 UPC code: 5294401703 ISBN: 978-1-58923-418-5

    Among other things, it discusses siding, and pump jacks. I don't like roofing, and just recently picked it up because I'm doing some roof work. My brother is a roofer, but I'm not!

    I also recommend Home Depot's "Home Improvement 1-2-3" This has a lot of good general info. As a home owner, you should have it, for just general anything.

    I have some much older siding books, but I'm sure you can easily pick up a couple of other books on siding as well.

    What I'm really trying to say is: Siding a house is not that difficult. You would save a bundle, and be proud of a job well done. Quoting from the Black and Decker book:
    "Few other exterior improvements will give your home such a dramatic facelift as new siding. Siding allows you to change both the color and texture of outside walls... Wrapping a home with vinyl or wood is well within a seasoned do-it-yourself's capabiliites. And when you're through, both you and the neighbors can appreciate your handiwork for many decades to come. If you have a basic collection of hand and power tools, you've got most of the hardware needed for the job already..." [page 109]

    I can hang drywall. My lovely wife can do an AMAZING job of finishing it! When we started - we both knew NOTHING about drywall. But we read "Drywall" by Myron R. Ferguson (I have the 2nd and 3rd edition.) Extremely valuable resource if your doing drywall work...

    So for you siding job - if your at all up to it - don't be afraid. Get a couple of books, do some reading, and save yourself a bundle. Have a couple of parties, and sell the tools (if you want) afterwards. Sorry this is so long. I wish you the best on your project. God Bless. A couple of links for info below:
    http://www.stainless-fasteners.com/
    http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/products_siding_hardieplankLapSiding.py
    http://www.jameshardie.com/
    http://www2.dupont.com/Building_and_Construction/en_US/
    http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek_Weatherization/en_US/customer_care/warranty.html
    http://www.toolbarn.com/maxtools-cn565s.html
    http://www.toolbarn.com/hitachi-nv50ap3.html
    http://www.northwestpowertools.com/nail/coil/nv50ap3.htm
    http://www.northwestpowertools.com/tool_manufacturers/pacificshear/sa902.htm

    The next is discontinued, but gives you an idea of what I was discussing:
    http://www.coastaltool.com/a/port/6605.htm

    And as stated previous - Box stores carry sheasrs which connect to your drill...

    I know you never mentioned doing the job yourslf. Just an idea. Really not hard to do. Bye!

  • PRO
    Contractor Quotes
    9 years ago

    Hi,

    I know that this post is old, but I found it when searching in Google. I wanted to know we just finished writing a post about How to Install Vinyl Siding Over Wood Siding. It might be of interest to those that find this thread by searching in Google.

    http://contractorquotes.us/how-to-install-vinyl-siding-over-wood-siding/