Renovation - please review plans and find issues!

12 years ago

We have a 1600sf house in Maryland, and we are adding 15 feet to the side + up 3 stories, and finishing the entire attic space. Total after the renovation: 2600sf.

FIRST FLOOR: Adding a mudroom + family room + powder, combining the kitchen and dining area into one large space

SECOND FLOOR: adding the master bath/closet, bathroom and bedroom #2 and converting the existing bath to laundry

ATTIC: adding two rooms and a bathroom

The pics below are the architects 2nd set of plans. For the most part these work, but we are interested in knowing if there are any huge issues that we should bring up...this is our first renovation.

There are a few specific questions that we'd like help with as well:

- where should we be adding built in shelving?

- when adding a bath in the attic, is it better/cheaper to add above an existing bath? Is this a large cost differential?

- should we add a radiator to the powder room if there is a radiator in the mudroom?

- is the family room well laid out, or should be reconfigure?

- can the master bath/closet be better configured? It is 15 x 12.5 [14.5 at the bump out] and it is very difficult to configure with 2 closets and a separate toilet compartment + two sinks. We would like a large shower instead of a small shower + small tub.

Your advice is appreciated!

Here is a link that might be useful: More about this Renovation including Kitchen Layout

Comments (9)

renovator8
12 years ago
I would try to let the window in the M bath closet be seen from the bedroom even if the sill is high to allow privacy and a dresser under it. The toilet compartment could be narrower and the space used more effectively.

The toilet on the 3rd floor seems like a long walk from the bed. OK for the youngsters.

Nice to see a hand drawn plan. It's hard to believe that was the only way to design a building once upon a time.
chisue
12 years ago
It all looks fine to me. However, I have to ask why you would add a three level addition instead of moving or building new. Perhaps the house is historic? Maybe this would make more sense if we could see the 'rest' of the house, but in the end you will have a half-old, half-new structure.

We set out to remodel a 1950's ranch on a lovely lot in a neighborhood we loved. We didn't do that. We took the advice of a bank appraiser instead. We did a teardown and built a new home. We would never have recouped the remodeling expense, but the new house is worth more than we spent.
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AlexHouse - This isn't quite the first floor plan, it's probably the 20th or so. It's just the first one done not on paper and that I felt was closer to what I'm striving for and therefore 'worthy' of being posted on the site. I've been looking at plans for about 8 months, following this forum for about 4 months (slowly learning from summerfield and many other great posts here) and will still continue. Your comment isn't overly negative at all! It's exactly the type of feedback that I was looking for. While the 3D views certainly help me see how they relate to the human body (at least better than my paper drawings), they're still a bit misleading and I'll continue working on that. Excellent suggestion for saving variations! I already have a few and will continue! Kitchen entry - I overlooked it and will definitely expand. I read that 3 feet for hall space was normal, 4 ideal, should I stick to that or somewhere in the middle for the kitchen? Right now it's pretty flexible by shrinking the island and that spare area across from the pantry. Master closet width - I never considered the aisle width. I can easily expand it and take up more space in the master. Right now the width is 5'3". How wide to avoid the shimmy? Toilet - Another measurement I didn't consider. It seemed that since the program doesn't allow the toilet to be right up against the wall, it was automatically putting in the code requirements. I'm pretty small, so on a 3D view it didn't look bad to me. I'll definitely expand it and look into code requirements. Second floor - The second floor is directly over the garage. I decided to put it here for various reasons. I wanted to take advantage of the view of the backyard wooded area rather than just my neighbors and garage (which would have been the view above the main portion of the house). I also wanted some distance from the kids rooms, but still be on the same floor if needed. The kids floors will be added later in the unfinished area. The second set of stairs (in an enclosed room, if that makes sense), go to the attic. I don't care for the pull down stairs. Hall - I can reduce the wall on the first floor to shorten the hallway, leaving the living room more open, but I don't see how I could reduce the hall space to the master.
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I did a couple of cut-and-paste sketches on Paint for you. Just possible suggestions... I have a neo-round shower in my guest bath and like it a lot. Gives plenty of room for showering. I totally agree about "fresh eyes" LOL! I do think you're VERY VERY CLOSE to a final plan but strongly recommend that you post your final here before signing off on it. If I had done that someone here might have caught that on his final revisions, the draftsman doing my plans accidentally went back to a earlier iteration where he had had my porch columns in the wrong positions. I had had him correct the spacing on the porch columns once (so that they weren't right in front of windows) and I didn't notice that the error had crept back into the final drawing until we were well into the middle of building. It would have cost me about $1200 that I didn't have at that point to get the porch posts moved to the location I wanted...so they're still "off." Someday, when I have extra money again, I'll have them moved but, of course, by that point it'll probably cost me twice as much to fix as it would have if done while building. And the sad thing is, it would have cost nothing to get them in the right position had I simply caught the error on the plans. I didn't see it because I'd looked at the plans so long I was starting to see what I EXPECTED instead of what was really there. Oh, and don't forget to change the door on the master bath toilet room. Even IF a person could get in and close the door behind them, if they passed out while on the john, their body would block the in-swing door from opening making it much more difficult for EMTs to get to them. When seconds count, you don't want an EMT having to cut thru the all of your toilet room before they can get in to give first aide.
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It looks fine. However, you've lost some of the important features of the plan I proposed, not that I'm surprised or offended. I still recommend increasing the length and width of the kitchen island and allowing 42" of clearance at the counters instead of 48" but that is just my personal preference although it has worked well in a lot of kitchens so far. I would use 48" only where an oven opens toward an island. I intentionally put the refrigerator out of the view of the living room and intended that corner to have wrap around windows above the sink. That requires a longer travel distance from the breakfast table to the refrigerator but a shorter distance from the dining table. I know it is easier to feed children in the immediate vicinity of the kitchen but you have invested in a formal dining room and because I have raised three kids I can tell you that it will serve your children well to eat there as often as possible when they are old enough to stay in a chair, you know, table manners, may I be excused, etc. It is one of the few times in their life when you can hold their attention face to face so it is really important to do it. When I built this plan before the family had no interest in a breakfast table; they always use the dining room but their kids are high school age. At any rate, the window at the sink should be a wider awning type window (operated with a crank) instead of the tiny double-hung shown on the elevation drawing which will be more difficult, even dangerous, to lift open. I would get the stove out of the corner and allow more counter space between it and the sink. Unless you buy special cabinets that allow a stove to fit properly in this configuration it will result in awkward alignments of upper cabinets, lower cabinets, the stove, the hood. I've only seen it done well with high end cabinets. I wouldn't use bi-fold doors in a kitchen; they don't work well and get beat up fast. You'll probably have to replace them in a few years. Regarding windows, don't jamb a pair of windows together with those narrow little trim strips from the manufacturer; put two or three studs and sheathing between them so trim can be put there. The fake shutters are a waste of money because they add nothing to this kind house IMHO. The windows in upstairs bedrooms that are narrow in order to miss the roof below would be more attractive and functional if they were awning windows that match the size and placement of the upper sash of the double-hungs around the corner. Of course, this only works if there is another window that meets the emergency escape requirement. To me the 4 over 4 lights look inappropriate on full sized double hung windows unless they are only 24" wide. I would use 6 over 1 which saves the cost of one muntin per window and gives a nice horizontal visual element to the paired windows. At the back side windows I would at least add one vertical muntin to the upper sash. Sometimes cottage style windows (upper sash shorter than the lower sash) are slightly cheaper than equal size sash windows for the same opening dimensions (at least it's true for Andersen windows). I would add a window to the fake dormer. There should also be windows in the main roof gable ends. It might also look better if the front wall was continuous with the dormer wall and there was no pent-roof (that little roof eave/gutter that sticks out below the dormer. This is a tough detail to pull off and it appears that your designer doesn't have clue about how to do it. There's something overly restrained about the current gable dormer and it would not cost more to improve it but I do like the shingles. It's a bit odd that the shingles don't continue at the gable ends of the main roof. The upstairs toilet/tub room doors should open in to avoid injury at night and I would put the toilet on the wall that aligns with the study wall below to allow easier construction and better sound isolation from the dining room since that's the room where you are most likely to not want to hear a toilet flush when you have guests. If the ceiling height is 8 ft. then depending on the size of the second floor joists (10" instead of 12" I-joists) the stair might be able to have 14 instead of 15 risers which might help out the upper landing layout. But be careful about floor bounce upstairs. Make sure the plumbing stacks will fit in the first floor walls and allow room for insulation. That's not usually possible with 2x4 studs. Double drywall is also a good idea. I would try to avoid offsetting the center bearing wall at the first floor and would try to keep the symmetry of the central corridor. I've built a similar plan and it became so obvious that the center hall needed to be formal that the contractor persuaded the owner to add arched openings at each end. I don't usually like arched openings in an open plan house but it turned out that he was right.
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JeannieMer
Original Author
12 years ago
HI, the link below provides more information. Thanks, yes, I WILL ASK that the bathroom be moved. And I am working on the master bathroom/closet area, have a few ideas, and most comments relate to the light...

Note, we are only adding 7 feet of foundation, but the house is sloped [see the bottom of the link below, and we gain 15 feet on the second and third floors. A new home of 2600sf in our neighborhood on a 1/10 acre lot would cost $1.4 million. We are expecting the addition to be $300K tops [hope we are not dreaming...] and our home is worth $900K approimately. We considered moving, but our house is so small, that buying another lot with a tear down house on it would be about $900K as well + moving costs. The house is historic [built in 1929], brick, super solid, and in pretty good condition. The cost of construction of a new homw would be much more. It has some upgraded plumbing and electricity already. Hope I have convinced you that we should RENOVATE.

The addition is in shown in blue!

Here is a link that might be useful: Extensive Renovation Plans
chisue
12 years ago
Your existing house is charming, and the addition looks tasteful. I hesitate to argue. You are surely very invested in the plans.

Can you get some 'ballpark' bids instead of waiting to have detailed plans? (Add at least a 20% 'fudge factor'.) What are quality builders getting per square foot for new homes in your area? Ask a few realtors to value your house 'as is' and with the addition.

What you plan is a 1000 sq ft new house, including all the most expensive components: kitchen, baths, heating and cooling, electrical. How much will you be doing with the old house to integrate it? Will you re-roof? Buy new HVAC to serve both parts? I'm afraid you'll be at that $1.4 mark, and have to live through the mess for over a year, then discover you could never sell for what you've put into the house.

The RE market in your area may be stable. In mine, you can buy existing homes for much less per square foot than you pay for new construction.

Our teardown decision was also informed by a neighbor's experience with a big renovation. They nearly doubled the number of bedrooms and baths. It took almost two years. When they sold, buyers rejected their house for homes that were originally built that size; they could buy them for the same asking price. The house was on the market a long time, and they lost a lot on the eventual sale.

All RE is local. This may not apply to your area. Just be careful to weigh the total value you'll have after making this extensive addition plus any renovations to integrate the old portion of the house.
JeannieMer
Original Author
12 years ago
Some shocking numbers???

What are quality builders getting per square foot for new homes in your area? Median Price Per Square Foot - $450.What is a typical range of cost per square foot to renovate? Is $300 a good estimate? We had the architect tell us about $300K with fudge factor. 1000 square feet, $300K.

Will you re-roof? Yes, but only the new section, it is 6 inches dropped from the original roof, a clean line. Solar shingles maybe on the new roof. And the bump out in the rear on the existing roof. Metal roof there.

Buy new HVAC to serve both parts? Existing HVAC is large enough for all floors except attic - considering putting in a separate heat pump there.

And, there is really no new contruction anywhere close for under $1.8 mil. in my area.

Thanks for the advice, thoughts.
chisue
12 years ago
It's been my experience that architects seldom know much about current construction costs. If builders in your area are getting $450/sq ft, that's what it costs. (You aren't including lot costs, right?) Your insurance agent should have building cost figures for your area.

Have you had an HVAC person estimate loads and use? It's surprising that your existing HVAC could comfortably serve the enlarged house...unless it is currently over-sized.

Do many buyers in your area want three floors? How long do you plan to live in this house? (No need to reply. Just food for thought.)

You would probably get more feedback if you posted on the "Building a House" forum.
chaparral
12 years ago
One thing to consider is that when architects give you the cost of building per square foot, they typically aren't including the cost of demoing what you have (in order to build it) and the fact that you will be invariably at minimum need to rebuild sections of rooms that adjoin the new addition. We are doing a similarly scoped project. Original estimate were about $300K, bids came in around $400K, and by the time we're done it will be about $450K. (I hope)

The economic reality is that from a purely financial point of view we would have probably been better off selling and then moving. However we are picky and looked for about 3 years and never found anything we liked in a neighborhood we liked as much. This remodel also will afford us the opportunity to do some "green" upgrades including solar, grey water, and rain water collection.

We plan on living here a long time and though we are almost empty nesters we hope our kids and eventually their families will enjoy coming back and having elbow room.

So I guess in conclusion take the estimates with a grain of salt and EXPECT their to be overruns--at least half of which will be due to your own choices. ;)

For example, we took the opportunity to gut a first floor bathroom at the same time that hadn't really been touched since the house was built in the 50's. And we raised the ceiling height in 2 bedrooms from 8' to 9'. And so on...

Have fun !!!
renovator8
12 years ago
Even a square foot renovation estimate would normally include demolition. The problem is that it is rarely a reliable indication of the probable project cost regardless of the source. One reason is that it is almost impossible to determine at this stage what needs to be done to the parts of the house that are not directly modified by the work. It should be considered a rough "ball park" estimate until someone is able to do an actual takeoff from complete drawings and specifications. I would guess the architect was shooting high in order to avoid disappointment later. The number sounds high to me.
desertsteph
12 years ago
I didn't see the adding of a new kitchen in the OP - just a combining of it with DR. that shouldn't be terribly major.

would you want bookshelves/builtins on either side of the FP? or the bump out? otherwise, I think the FR looks good. french doors to the outside of it?

I think plumbing over other plumbing is always cheaper. it's closer to connect.

moving the attic bath to the attic space below the bedroom would make it closer and line up with plumbing below it.

the mstr bath/closet could most likely be configured in a better way.

how about in floor heating in the bath off the mudroom? or a wall heater. what climate/area are you in?

Renovation - please review plans and find issues!

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renovator8

chisue

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Renovation - please review plans and find issues!

Comments (9)

renovator8

chisue

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JeannieMerOriginal Author

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JeannieMerOriginal Author

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