I just saw this Trulia article and it's very relevant. It is similar to the article from Tampa Bay linked above, but delves in further. It ranks the most affordable areas and least affordable areas for middle class households, and then takes a look at the younger buyers. Their definition of the middle class uses the median household income.

Not surprisingly, the midwest is the most affordable and California and New York the least. San Francisco is the worst, unless you break NYC into the boroughs. Then Manhattan pops up, with just 2% of the property reachable by the median income.

Interestingly, they repeat the analysis for the millennials. It produces slightly different results. As you might expect, the affordability drops in most areas -- but improves slightly in the two most expensive locales.

Here is a link that might be useful: Trulia on Affordability

Tishtoshnm responded to C9Pilot's advice of joining the military as one way of saving for a home...
"Of course, they do get a safe place to live..." Excepting that whole deployment to a war zone thing."
IMO, home ownership is still readily attainable. But mindsets like the one above keeps a lot of people from doing what it takes to put one's self on a path that gets them what they want.
For what it is worth Tish, every Veteran that I have ever met claim their service was an honor and would do it over again; as the benefits of Armed Service greatly outweighs the risks.
Again, IMO, a 3.5% downpayment is not setting the bar ridiculously high. In fact, a good argument could be said that this amount is too low.
Again too, the problem is that household incomes over the last few years for the lower and middle class has gone down, while costs of goods has gone way up. Fix this problem, and the interest in this thread dies quickly.

I generally agree, ncrealestateguy, but keep in mind you're only speaking with a defined subset of veterans: the ones who survive. The others can't speak for themselves, can they?

When I got married (the first time) I had a small but nice wedding. Many friends and relatives gave small cash gifts. That wedding money was the down payment on a modest home.
These days it seems as if many couples want lavish expensive weddings. Some of them also turn up their noses at 'first time' or fixer-upper homes.
I'm not here to preach what choices anyone should make, I'm just saying that for me, a small beginner home was a good start, and it was easy to get into a small home like that by making the choice to get a home with my wedding gift money. It was years before we bought nice furniture but that was the choice we made to get into a home.

Vigna_caracalla - my apologies.

I only read your post this morning as I have been making my way through that other thread. So my response was in no way aimed at what you wrote.

Luck does play a role, there is no question of that. We don't choose our parents, or the country in which we are born. And a whole pile of other things that would make a mountain if I set them here.

hayden2, not clear what do you want to say in your posting, do you mean these who could not speak for themselves might not think their service was an honor?

Not clear whatTishtoshnm's coments mean,
"Of course, they do get a safe place to live..." Excepting that whole deployment to a war zone thing."

Isn't it the major part of mission/job responsibility of a person joining armed forces is to protect the country from foreign threats and internal conflict. Draft is a thing of past, so whoever voluntarily joins armed forces should well understand the potential of being deployed to war zone.

Going back to the subject, I view homeownership is a Privilege, not a Right. If a person decides to own a home, s/he would need set a realistic goal, and do whatever it takes to attain that. For average American in this country, luck only play a small role in ones life, work/effort is the deterring factor.

My comment means that joining the military does not always mean a safe place to live. It too is a choice that involves risk and a bit of luck/fate is involved in the financial outcome. Like all things, one has to make smart decisions to make the most of it. The retirement is reasonably good but you get nothing if you are forced out earlier or not allowed to re-enlist, etc.

Of course it is an honor and a good thing to do, but not everybody comes out of it whole physically or psychologically. My husband has served, my FIL is retired Air Force and I have a son who is also very keen on serving. From a purely financial perspective, there have been some benefits. The GI bill of course helped, we did not use a VA loan as we had a down payment and the rates for conventional financing were better. As a veteran, DH gets a slight break on our property taxes.

Of the veterans I know, I'd say less than 50% would agree with those that ncrealestateguy knows. The other 50%+ are experiencing long-term physical and/or mental health issues that severely impact their ability to earn a living and their quality of life. I don't get the sense most of them see the honor part of it.

The BLS inflation calculator that gooster linked is interesting. My fresh out of high school, first entry level job paid $14,440/year. One would have to make $60,255.40/year today to have the same buying power. Does anyone know anyone who makes $60k+ fresh out of high school with only burger joint experience? I didn't think so. No, wages have not kept pace with inflation.

tishtoshnm,

Thank you for the clarification. Serving the country is a big and honorable decision, it deserves respect.

Over the years I have been working with many folks with previous military experience, all of them are excellent workers, responsible, honest and reliable. Their mind set and behaviors demonstrate disciplines and trainings received from their previous careers.

Going back to the subject -

Again, I strongly disagree with the statements of “the fact is, many people get to the life they have because the right things happened at the right time. Many people don't earn their jobs-- they networked and knew the right people, who vouched for them to get a job.”

Things in life do not happen randomly, it takes tremendously effort and planning to ensure “the right things happened at the right time”. Over the years among my colleagues and classmates, we all agree the most difficult part of our careers is networking, it takes enormous effort, talent, competency, perseverance to have people give us a good job or invest in our own business.

I don't think looking at BSL types of information would do us any good. Neither as envying others for their good luck, good health, great genes, supportive
parents/grandparent/forefathers..etc. or complaining about systems, country and world where we are. What matters is what we do after comparing ourselves to others and realized we have less than others do.

World is constantly changing, nowadays competition for jobs, skills, knowledges, competencies comes from all corners of the world, but same as Opportunities.

I always suggest my own children to constantly improve themselves through education, trainings, work assignments, and to learn from challenges & failures. I encourage them to position themselves for potential opportunities and be ready to catch "good luck" when it appears.

After all, I believe all of us won't be happy settling for being an Average, we would be very happy to be the Best of ourselves based on what we have and who we are. Once we take care of our mind set and attitude, affording a downpayment for a house will take care of itself.

I'm so stunned that someone received enough gift money at their wedding for a house that I'm almost rendered speechless...almost. I think DH and I received about $100 way back when but we didn't ask for cash gifts. DD & SIL received about $400 at their wedding and, iirc, DS & DIL received about $500. Both of them even had online gift registries with money trees that people could contribute to online via PayPal.

Maybe the whole issue of networking and whether it's luck or not depends on where you live. We live in a rural area of small towns, population is about 70k county-wide. Advancement definitely depends on who your family is. The good jobs tend to go to those within those families or close buddies of them. It's hard to get into that inner circle. It's easier if your family has a long history in the town unless most of that history was spent on the wrong side of the tracks. Then one really has an uphill battle no matter how hard they work, their skills and education, and how talented they are. They can then be considered pushy.

Compounding that is that outsiders have an extremely tough time getting into those inner circles. Heck, you could be the 5th generation in one town in your area but if you move to another town, you're considered a newcomer.

So, in my area, luck of birth or luck of who you were best friends with while growing up and, thus, you were accepted into the inner circle are far more important than being a good networker. In fact, you risk being considered pushy.

Yeah, it's pretty provincial out here but it has its benefits (low cost of living, and lots of outdoor activities at our beautiful beaches/lakes/rivers, fantastic forests, etc.)

azmom, I don't presume to know the hearts of all service men and women, but I would suppose that almost 100% believe their service is an honor, just as I believe it is an honor to be served by people of such calibre.

However, you may have missed the second part of ncrealestateguy's comment when he said "the benefits of Armed Service greatly outweighs the risks. "

Sometimes the benefits outweigh the risks, and sometimes they don't. Chances are he's speaking to the ones for whom the risks were in fact worth it. The ones who don't make it back, don't get the opportunity to discuss their take on the matter.

This post was edited by hayden2 on Sun, Nov 23, 14 at 22:01

@funkycamper: The average starting salary for college graduates is now 48.7K, as of 2014. However, choosing certain professions, like engineering, will get you a starting salary over 62K; a business degree, 58K. Other disciplines lag. See the link below.

My point in linking these three sets of data (inflation adjustment, affordability, starting salaries) is not for us to make personal comparisons, but to challenge ourselves to evaluate what is means when we say "average" and share data on what is supposed to be affordable. The data suggests that homes should be reachable for large segments of the population in many areas, and way out of reach in others. So, back to the original question, what is making these homes so out of reach for many? Is it the down payment? The credit history? Changing priorities? Rising expectations? Is the country really bifurcating down the middle that dramatically (if so, then what is average)? Or, are our perceptions being shaped by examples and stories at either end?

Here is a link that might be useful: Average starting salaries

@gooster: I was comparing my fresh out of high school, no real work experience or special skills salary, not those of college grads. And my pay scale wasn't particularly high back then. Many of my friends had even better paying jobs fresh out of high school.

There are also many college graduates who can't find work in their fields or jobs that even require a college degree. There have been many articles and studies about this over the last few years.

Something not mentioned yet are student loan debts. Back in my college days, I had numerous friends who could work a summer job and save up enough money for tuition and books and not even have to work during the school term. Others were like me who worked full-time in the summer and part-time during the school year and made enough to pay our tuition and books out-of-pocket. Back when tuition was only about $10 per credit, that was easy to do. Today when tuition is often $150-250 per credit, who can do that? Very few.

My kids are young adults and I hear a lot of stories from their friends. Many are graduating with student loan payments of $500-1000/month. Even if they get a good paying job upon graduation, this is still a huge chunk out of one's paycheck and would make home ownership much harder to save up for and then to pay the mortgage, insurance, taxes, upkeep, etc.

Agree re. student debt and "working your way through college." On the other hand, I know people who are making 90K and still have a maxed out credit card, for which they pay 18% interest. Stupid.

@funkycamper: I'm sorry, I missed that very important detail. I do think, however, it's been quite some time where a person directly out of high school could earn such a salary (scaled per year) -- a few still exist, but primarily in areas where specialized skill is traded for isolation and risk, or some other less desirable attribute.

The student loan factor is a big one -- the cost of attendance has generally exceeded the pace of inflation of other items. As @nosoccermom also relates, poor personal financial discipline is also a factor. (e.g, I had a friend who used to spend 1600 per month on restaurants -- on less than 100K a year. Needless to say, they are still renting)

Interestingly, my company sometimes has trouble sourcing qualified applicants -- spotty work histories, low gpas, wrong majors, etc. I've also heard stories from friends that struggle with high school grads that lack certain basic skills to do a job and with the work ethic to do things like show up on time. (Of course, as many or more examples exist on the opposite end of the spectrum).

So many interesting and informative perspectives! In my opinion, understanding of social and economic processes always helps navigate this world. Especially as we with our teenage DS begin figuring out colleges and other post-high-school options.

Funkycamper: thanks for the book recommendation! I put "Nickel and Dimed" on my reading list.

Gooster: "Not surprisingly, the midwest is the most affordable and California and New York the least. San Francisco is the worst, unless you break NYC into the boroughs."

My very subjective view is that the SF Bay Area could make a perfect example of the two-tier society as defined in the CIA Factbook.

Several of my grad business school classmates moved to SF after graduation. There were tons of jobs and cool IT startups in the Silicon Valley in the mid-1990's. My classmates got hired as financial analysts, marketing directors, product managers, you name it. Another cool thing was that in the Silicon Valley employees often received the company stock as part of their compensation.

Not all startups lasted, and some stocks fizzled out, but there are still many people who got propelled to high-salary positions and whose stock holdings kept appreciating. As a result, there's a large class of very well-paid specialists with significant assets. Someone I know there has made a lucrative career as an investment advisor to high-net-worth professionals in the IT industry.

At the same time, the salaries of those in traditional middle-class jobs like teachers, store cashiers or public service workers, never caught up. In addition, the IT companies contracted overseas many middle-class jobs like electronics manufacturing, programming, data processing, customer service call centers, etc.

A while ago my German friend and I discussed the U.S. housing bubble. She pointed out that mortgages were much harder to get in Germany. Most Germans rented instead of going into mortgage debt. Thanks to a stringent financial discipline, Germany remained much more stable economically than other countries.

This article on home ownership in Germany provides some interesting insights. In a nutshell, high home ownership rate = high debt = less economic stability.

Also, there's a link at the bottom of the article, "Why Germans Pay Cash for Almost Everything" ( http://qz.com/262595/why-germans-pay-cash-for-almost-everything/ ). There is some interesting information in that article too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Most Germans don't buy their homes

I'm in Australia, and it is just as hard here. I'm currently 28 and I now work, on average, 60 hours a week over two jobs. Because of this, in two or three years, I'll have a house deposit. I'm saving like anything to make this time period as short as possible.

I have pretty much always lived in the same rural town on the east coast, and when I was about 13, I remember looking in real estate windows at houses priced between $75,000 and $100,000, thinking how easy it was going to be, how I would have a mortgage by my early 20's and off I go. Then life got in the way. Blah, blah, blah bad luck and horrible money management and here I am, 28 and (luckly) got another job that works around my existing one, and working 60ish hours a week. But I'm going to do it! Even if the same houses I seen 15 years ago a now $300,000+. I am realistic, I'm singe,so only one income, and have no family support (no random old rich aunt is going to pass on and leave me a small fortune) So I'm going to work my a*s off til I hit the magic 25% deposit, then I'm quiting one job and taking a holiday lol.

That being said, but the time I get the deposit together, prices would have rised again and I have to keep working and keep saving...

The above post answers the OP's question w/o fluff, stats or excuses... the same way one secures a down payment today is the same as it was 25 years ago.

gooster said: @funkycamper: I'm sorry, I missed that very important detail. I do think, however, it's been quite some time where a person directly out of high school could earn such a salary (scaled per year) -- a few still exist, but primarily in areas where specialized skill is traded for isolation and risk, or some other less desirable attribute.

@gooster: And I think we should be concerned about that. I just searched for the link to an online article I read recently that was well-researched and cited. It showed how in the 1960's one could support a family on minimum wage. The example was for a 2 adult/2 children family and showed typical expenses for rent, transportation, food, utilities, and other necessities. It also discussed typical medical coverage and other medical expenses. So one worker in the family, on minimum wage, and they could live a modest lifestyle. Certainly no big vacations or fancy cars but it was something people could sustain themselves on.

Why not today? Minimum wage should be around $15/hour to offer today's workers the same sustainability that they had in the 1960's. Why was it possible then but not possible now? Yet another example of how wages have not kept pace with inflation.

Young people today have a much harder row to hoe and, quite frankly, I thought it was hard enough for my generation.

Re: Germany and higher savings rate:
Like in most of the developed world, college (including medical, law, business degrees, undergrad and grad) is for free.
There is a robust government- or non-profit subsidized rental housing market.
You can't just refinance when a better interest rate comes along, and banks service the mortgages themselves.
Qualifying for a mortgage is harder.
And it's not that easy to get a credit card either. here, even my dog gets invitations.
People buy a house for keeps.

With respect to saving for a down payment: i agree that it can't be done on minimum wage. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who should be able to save up 5%.
30 years ago, we had a combined household income of gross 33K, both PhDs. Our rent was 450.00, living in a relatively high cost area. Still, we managed to save a 20% down payment to buy a 125K house within about 3 years. That meant, hardly ever eating out, biking to work, driving one very old car (very rarely) that was bought used for cash, living in a very small apartment, low cost or free entertainment, never ever paying credit card interest.

Nosoccermom: "Germany and higher savings rate:
Like in most of the developed world, college (including medical, law, business degrees, undergrad and grad) is for free."

Investing in a free college education system is one of the best things a country can do for its citizens. Of course, the free college education system is not exactly free since it's funded by the taxpayers. However, it helps equalize the starting point for young people and enables high social mobility.

In my home country college education was and is still free too. There were people from all walks of life in my undergraduate class, and those with consistently good grades even received a small stipend from the state.

A Russian friend of mine in the U.S. wants to get Russian citizenship for her American-born daughter. The girl is in middle school now, all A's. As a Russian citizen, she would be able to attend a college in Russia for free if American colleges prove to be too expensive. They have family in Russia and travel there regularly.

Funkycamper: "Minimum wage should be around $15/hour to offer today's workers the same sustainability that they had in the 1960's. Why was it possible then but not possible now? Yet another example of how wages have not kept pace with inflation."

Unfortunately, I don't think increasing the minimum wage would help. Higher wages would either push prices higher or lead to mass layoffs. Here we probably need to look at the structure of the labor market now and in the past.

My DH and I are self-employed. We also have a part-time secretary in our office. She's part-time because it isn't feasible for us to bear the costs of a full-time employee like health insurance and such. She does help a lot around the office.

If we have to raise her pay because of the minimum wage increase, we would have to let her go and do without by putting in longer hours. We can't pass the cost increase on to our clients. Many of our clients are middle or upper middle class, and there's only so much they can pay for our services. We aren't making big profits either; it's more like upper-middle class living.

One of the big issues I see in the current labor market is an increasing share of part-time jobs. There are official reports about job growth, but they don't dwell on what kinds of jobs are being added.

The article below correlates with my DH's nieces' experience. The two girls are college graduates in their mid- to late 20's. They are intelligent and hardworking, but haven't been able to establish themselves in decent full-time jobs. All they had was a string of part-time jobs, which even included babysitting. At one point one of the nieces had three part-time jobs at the same time. The other niece had stints working as a receptionist at her mother's dental practice and as a Sunday school teacher at a synagogue. Now one of the girls has enrolled in graduate school in a hope to improve her career prospects. The other is going to Israel for better job prospects.

Here is a link that might be useful: More Americans are stuck in part-time work.

I've poked around on the Net just now re: the U.S. labor market. Not much information on the labor market structure has turned up, but Huffington Post has a series of articles on the U.S. economy. Some points in them might be debatable, though.

More links to follow in the next posts.

Here is a link that might be useful: The U.S. Is Even More Unequal Than You Realized

On economic mobility in the U.S.

Here is a link that might be useful: Where The American Dream is Dead and Buried

America by the Numbers

Although these articles seem to talk doom and gloom, I don't think we should be overly distressed. What is important is to understand how the U.S. society is changing. This would help us and our children to find alternative ways of living. If it's necessary to master a foreign language for study or work abroad to build a solid financial cushion, then we should motivate our children to do so.

I think it's also important to disengage from the non-stop marketing and advertising hype that tries to force us into unnecessary spending and unsustainable lifestyle. We are fortunate to have access to a wide array of products and services, and we should be judicious about what we want to pay for.

Here is a link that might be useful: America by the Numbers Part I

Well, you know, citizens from all countries can study in Germany for free. There are now plenty of degree programs that are all, or mostly, in English. So, send your kids to Europe :)

Nosoccermom: I'll definitely consider this for my DS. :-) Any links to online resources on German universities would be appreciated!

My fresh out of high school, first entry level job paid $14,440/year. One would have to make $60,255.40/year today to have the same buying power. Does anyone know anyone who makes $60k+ fresh out of high school with only burger joint experience? I didn't think so. No, wages have not kept pace with inflation.

and

Many of my friends had even better paying jobs fresh out of high school.

Where were you living in 1976? The salaries for high school graduates were not that high where I was. According to the DOL, the minimum wage in 1976 was $2.20-$2.30/hr if you fell under the FLSA. (If you didn't, the state minimum was as low as $1.40/hr.) $2.30/hr x 2087hrs equals a salary of $4800.

According to the link below, the average 1976 salary of someone who graduated with a BA in 1974-1975 was $7600. It ranged from $12,200 for those with an engineering degree to $5800 for those with a degree in the humanities.

So, if I have the year correct, you were making 3 times the minimum wage and twice as much as many of those who graduated from college a year earlier. Sounds as though wherever you lived had very high wages and was not typical for the rest of the country

Here is a link that might be useful: Average annual salary of bachelor's degree recipients employed full-time 1 year after graduation, by field of study: 1976 to 2001

LanaRoma,
Try these for starters:
http://www.eahep.org/europeanhigher-education/study-in-europe.html

Or go here: http://www.studyportals.eu/

or google DAAD, English-taught degrees in Germany

I thought the $14,440/year figure sounded odd too.

Back in 1976 I attended one of the big ten working part time in a science lab. As a graduate student, I was paid $2.40/hr that was higher than other under graduate students who only made minimum wage $2.20.

I wonder why German citizens would agree using their tax dollars to shoulder college cost for other countries' citizens.

Here is a link discussing moral hazard of free tuition:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2014/10/03/there-is-not-such-thing-as-a-free-college-education/

This post was edited by azmom on Fri, Nov 28, 14 at 19:13

Nosoccermom: Thank you for the links! DH and I had a lively discussion on European schools just now. :-)

Azmom: "I wonder why German citizens would agree using their tax dollars to shoulder college cost for other countries' citizens."

Perhaps it has something to do with the low birth rate in Germany? A while ago I read somewhere that for every three Germans retiring only two young persons entered the workplace. An effort to attract a large pool of young people who would get educated to German standards, take jobs in Germany and pay taxes to provide for the pensions of retired Germans?

I would expect the admissions to German universities to be very competitve. In my home country state-funded universities are much harder to get into, and they typically take the best share of the applicant pool. Private colleges (where you have to pay tuition) have lower admission standards and are often considered a "last resort" option. Also, state-funded schools are ruthless about kicking students out if they don't keep up academically. In my undergraduate class only 50% made it to the graduation. A few students left on their own, but most were kicked out for their poor academic performance.

Nope. Admission is not very competitive in all but a few degree programs, and even medical school reserves a certain percentage (30%) by waiting time. So, if you wait for 6 years you're admitted with something around a 2.3 high school GPA. 30% go to applicants with a 4.0, the remainder depends on which university. BTW, there are very, very few private universities and only very recent for a limited kind of studies.
And, no, it's not harder to be admitted as a foreigner. In fact, at least in previous years it was easier because a certain number of spots (5%) is reserved for foreigners.

But to address the question: "I wonder why German citizens would agree using their tax dollars to shoulder college cost for other countries' citizens."

Good question --- and one I ask when I see foreign students "studying" for years and years without actually taking the exams. I think it's so engrained that university studies are free that nobody actually considers that someone has to pay for it. And that a spot at university costs a lot of money. When I tell people that in the US parents and students spend tens or even hundreds of thousands on tuition fees and room and board, Europeans just cannot believe it.
There are major demonstrations when "tuition" was raised to 300.00/semester, which now has been revoked again, not to mention benefits such as low medical insurance that pays for everything and monthly public transportation tickets.

Also, all EU students are eligible to study in each others' countries, so it's reciprocal. As for non-EU citizens, I have asked several friends why non-EU citizens shouldn't pay for their tuition, and most people had never thought about this. Neither have the foreign students. In fact, they think it's unfair that they don't get the government paid stipend for living costs that German and EU students get.

It just seems so normal in most of the world that one does not have to pay for university studies. I think questioning this might be similar to asking a US citizen why foreigners driving on their roads shouldn't pay a fee.

However, I just read that Sweden and Norway are trying to charge some tuition for non-EU citizens.

I just read that the first and only university in Germany who charges for non-EU citizens is the University for Music and Theatre in Leipzig, 3,600 euro/semester.

The reason why foreigners don't pay goes back to the 1960s and was considered part of developing aid.

Some politicians raise the topic every now and then, Austria, for example, spends about 100 million/year for non-EU foreign students (about 100K per degree). Comparison: a Japanese student who studies music at Juilliard pays about 30K/year, at the Mozarteum in Salzburg, just as prestigious, it's about 800/year.

There are about 190K non-EU foreign student sin Germany. And, no, they cannot stay that easily after they have finished their degrees, so the reason that Germany wants to import skilled labor does not apply. I think the idea is to attract top students to European universities to improve research and education. At least that's what the universities say.

Interesting stories on experiences in the 70s -- I went back to the inflation calculator -- 4800 equates to roughly 20K today. Or about $10 per hour -- of course, many of these jobs are not full-time.

Another interesting point regarding Europe -- specifically Germany, since I was there. Immigration has been an issue throughout the continent for some time now. My colleagues tell me that each village/town/city is assigned a number of refugees to assimilate and support into their towns.

In Australia and New Zealand, it used to be pretty easy to be able to emigrate if you had a college degree in certain fields. I don't know if that is the case now. In contrast, it can be tough to get into many Western European countries and obtain the right to work. Even sponsored by my company, getting a work permit was not a slam dunk a few years back.

I recall reading one of those 'financial makeover' articles a few years ago. A young woman with a low-paying job was shocked to find out she was spending 10% (!!!) of her income on lattes. Yeah, 2 a day x 20-30 days per month for a year... adds up. But it didn't seem like an extravagance to her until she was forced to do the math. (Yeah, maybe we need to work on "innumeracy" in this country, too.)

"... hardly ever eating out, biking to work, driving one very old car (very rarely) that was bought used for cash...

I think many people can't seem to tolerate the delayed gratification described above. Whenever we drive by apartment complexes that seem to cater to young people, my husband always points out how much nicer the cars are in the parking lot than what is parked in our driveway. But that's a pleasure for today. Car marketing, in particular, is always about "the payments" rather than the total price. I think it is hard to learn how to be frugal unless you have good examples in front of you.

I've noticed some ads in the last year or so that say things like "Drive the car you deserve". Deserve? How about "drive the car you can afford"?

I also notice in the various kitchen design and decorating forums people wanting to replace something that is perfectly fine, still working and in decent condition because "it looks dated". ??? That doesn't compute for me. I'm not saying you have to live with something you hate because it looks very shabby or just isn't something that suits your taste but if it's just because it's dated...well, I don't get that.

I see in my middle class neighborhood's and town's facebook pages every week someone whose frig or washer or something isn't working right -- and instead of calling a repair service, they just put it on the curb and buy a new one.

I wasn't raised to be so spendthrift. Depression era parents who really suffered in that time drilled the "make it do" into me.

The concept that things will need and can be repaired seem to be foreign -- or, it is something that I've observed in other aspects of modern life: not wanting to take the time and "trouble", as so many say, "Just want it gone!"

I haven't read all of both threads but there is truth in both side of the "luck or hard work" argument. More the absence of bad luck, and lots of hard work and penny-pinching on my part, despite a few very bad decisions in my young adulthood, have enabled me to do alright.

I interact with many in the poorer underclass in my line of work, and yes there is a distinct lack of advantage (such as lesser quality public schools, ignorant parents, and a poor job market), but when I listen to the stories there is always the consistent thread of poor decisions and stubborn refusal to live life in a way that can lead to advantages.

Is their anything as an appliance repair person anymore?

Yes! We have a relative who does that. He's not local so we have a local guy we use. We have several rentals so we probably use him once every year or two. He's a gem. Reasonable and will tell you if an appliance just isn't worth repairing.

Rae's point is well taken if the appliance on the curb reflects a spendthrift atttitude. However, there may be extenuating circumstances. My sister-in-law's refrigerator is 32 years old. You can bet she'll put it on the curb when it conks - and she should. Current models are far more energy efficient, and save money in the long run.

Some other appliances (TVs are a good example) cost more to repair than they cost to buy new.

Well, the good news is that my kids (early 20s) are just as frugal. They are not stingy, but they consciously spend money, e.g. they may decide to splurge on a specific item, vacation, or whatever. So, lori's point is spot on: Many people spend money carelessly, without realizing where it goes.

To follow up on delayed gratification: My family are in the lucky position/frame of mind that we simply don't want a lot of things, so it's not that we feel deprived. Rather, we know that if we want to spend a large chunk of many on something we truly want, we can. So maybe that feeling is already sufficient.
That, plus that we love to score bargains, i.e. the Four Seasons for half price.

I've never thought of frugal and stingy being synonyms. This may be a silly example but, to me:
* a stingy person goes out to a restaurant and wants the best for a cheap price, will probably find something to complain about, and then will either seriously under-tip or not tip at all even if they had excellent service
* a frugal person doesn't eat out often but, when they do, they choose a restaurant that serves the food they like at a price they're comfortable paying and then if the service was excellent, tips very well without batting an eye because the server earned it and the experience was worth it

I think the key to being satisfied with what you have without feeling deprived or the need to shop-shop-shop is to know your priorities and spend on quality for your priorities (while watching for sales and other discounts, of course) and spending less on things that aren't priorities.

My sister just bought some dressy boots that cost about $300. That makes me think "yikes!". But I didn't bat an eye on buying $350 hiking boots on sale for $275 that fit like a glove and give me hours of comfort in the woods and mountains. My $35 Payless dressy boots are fine by me for the rest of the time. Priorities.

I think there me be some kind of backlash occurring among young adults these days. I grew up in a hand to mouth household, my father was a steel worker and mom was a SAHM. In the 60's and early 70's being a union steel worker was a good job. After Japanese steel starting taking over the market my fathers wages declined (after striking) and never recovered. They were not frugal people and made many poor decisions. All 3 of us kids started working as soon as we could to buy our school cloths and sports stuff. It took me many years to learn how to manage my $$ and I too have made many bad decisions. Fortunately I've had a good career and have been able to make up for some of my poor decisions. It took me a long time to appreciate frugality, saving and being responsible with my money. My 2 oldest kids seem to have learned some important lessons despite my lack of a good financial example. Our oldest boy purchased his 1st house @ 21, got married @ 24, purchased his 2nd home and now has 2 kids. He's not college educated but began working part time for our local municipality while in hi-shool and has now been there almost 15 years and is a utility worker w/the city. He married his hi-school sweet heart, helped her through college and now she's an Occupational Therapist. They had a plan and have stuck to it, very responsible young people. Our oldest girl finished dental school and started a career before meeting her man and is now married and working on a family. I'm very proud of them but wonder what it was that has made them so responsible so young. I was playing in rock bands for 20 years after college (along w/my career) and being pretty irresponsible for a lot of that time. Most of my irresponsibility lies with not doing the right thing w/my $$, it didn't hurt us but we could be a lot farther ahead than where we're at now.

" we could be a lot farther ahead than where we're at now"

Just to chime in, while I realize the topic is about housing and housing purchases, if you do something you love to do for 20 years you are blessed, and 'farther ahead' than many in terms of racking up What Really Matters.

Mistman, it sounds like you did well, with your kids and balancing life/work : )

I appreciate that Lucille and nosoccermom !! (no hi-jack intended)

NC RE Guy-
We have a terrific A/C guy who actually fixes stuff.
Your question reminded me....the tenant in our 2nd floor condo calls us for everything. Fortunately it's only a few miles away, but she has no idea what to do if the A/C stops working and I do all the troubleshooting myself - (once the thermostat needed a new battery, once the drain was plugged up (easy fix with a shop vac) and once the repairman had to put in a new circuit board - yay! - didn't try to sell us a new unit even though this was really old). We've had to replace the hot water heater which was leaking and the catch tray that was installed with a big hole in it (!?!!?), not difficult to do ourselves.

The auto garage-door opener was the worst. She called one of those companies that came out and declared we needed a new one to the tune of $350 or something (she paid for the service call of $100 or so since we did not authorize it). My husband made a trip to the local Ace Hardware and replaced the belt drive for about $5. That was about two years ago and it's been working fine since then.

Same local A/C guy, our home A/C needed a new electrical something (can't remember) so that was $130 or so, and then a few weeks later mid-summer, he sold us a new fan for the cooling unit which we installed ourselves because he was too busy for a few days - nobody else would sell us the proprietary Trane part since we weren't authorized service people. That was awesome of him to do that. Unfortunately, the leaks are going to have us replace the whole thing before next summer no matter what.

We've also changed out the 2nd circuit board on our pool heater after the warranty ran out (chewed up by fruit rats both times, now protected by a wire cage). The salt generator needed a new circuit board, but that one was covered. I just put new wings and feet on the pool vac.
A used-to-be SubZero but no-longer-authorized guy fixed our fridge for next-to-nothing (another electrical do-dad).

Anyway, yes, there are still people around who fix stuff, but honestly, they can only fix stuff that is high quality to start with.
Friends of ours with a bike shop have a difficult time with folks who bring in their cheap big-store bikes to get fixed up and there's pretty much nothing they can do for them. Our last no-name dryer (came with the house) was not worth fixing when we could buy a brand-new dented high-quality one for the same price at the Sears Outlet store.

Basically, there are the fix-it people and the people who have to call for service or just replace. Fix-it is definitely a more frugal way to go. I mean, I'm always amazed that there are people who don't know how to change a tire in their own car. Really? That's the lowest level of fix-it and everyone should be able to do it - it's so easy! I just wish my tenant was even just a little bit of a fix-it person! (batteries? really?)

I understand the batteries, but I don't expect my tenants to fix stuff themselves. They are renters, they don't own the appliances, why bother trying to fix them. I do have a list of good inexpensive vendors for repairs, I don't mind if tenants call me and I call a repair person. .

C9, I have a Ray Pak pool and spa heater that I replaced the circuit board myself three years ago. It went bad again three days ago again. So, back to the internet to find out where in the heck I found it the first time. I also had to replace the flow meter in my IC40 salt water generator. I bet if I would have called a pool repair service, I would have gotten a bill for a new SWG!
I just called the pool service company two days ago to see what they would do for my pool remote transceiver. Of course, they tell me I need to replace the remote and the transceiver at close to $1000.00. So, off to the internet I will go to find me the circuit board for this too.

I don't know how average people do it but here's how we did it. We bought a house with a friend in the early 80s and assumed a VA mortgage. The going interest rate at the time was 18% and we assumed an 8% mortgage. We had about $6500 saved, we borrowed some from a bank and some from DH's father and scraped together what we needed so we could assume the mortgage. We eventually paid everyone back, sold out to our partner after four years and bought our own house with the little bit of equity we had and some additional savings we had accumulated. We were very frugal then and still are today. We've always made major spending decisions in part based on how they impact our net worth; i.e. debt and exorbitant interest rates do not have a positive impact on net worth.