Pal, that is the problem, since my ID doesn't itemize her bill at all, it is very difficult to know what I was billed for. I like her, but probably won't use her again after the 4 remaining items are delivered/installed. I will probably recommend her to friends, but will warn them of her billing style. It makes me feel like it is very easy for her to pad the bill and I have no way of knowing. And so you understand my uneasyness, when we are done all the materials & fees will be about 100K, so lots of room to throw in extra hours here and there.

I did work with another Designer for exterior work and that person was very good at itemizing the bills and breaking down the hours it took to do each different job, so I know it can be done.

i definitely think you should renegotiate the bill!!

i think it is the designer who really needs to learn from this experience and begin to write up contracts for the work that is to be done!! you can't assume your customers are on the same page as you are- and every customer doesn't necessarily communicate effectively or assertatively. a contract will help protect the designer...

dixieman,

How was the situation resolved?

Hope you are enjoying your new/old 1920s house!

Well first of all, you shouldn't ignore the bill. I do understand your frustration in the fact that the designer did not do what you asked her to do and it would irritate me if someone told me to get rid of certain furnishings and then recommend putting some of the same identical items back into the house.

Secondly, this is a good lesson learned - do not have any type work done to/in your house without some type contract. We learned this the hard way in building our home. It really makes things easier for both sides.

That said, I don't see any reason for negative responses to the OP (although again, I don't think the bill should be laid aside), nor do I think it is unreasonable to ask for an itemized bill.

I hope you get it all worked out.

tina

OP I think you have to sit down with the decorator (as you called her) and negotiate payment. Clearly she invested time and energy and deserves compensation but she clearly also did not fulfill the mandate. And in business when the client is dissatisfied with cause concessions are made. That's the long and the short of it. I can't say what dollar value her work was worth but if she agrees to reassess the bill take whatever she offers and move on.

I don't want to wade into a hornets nest here (proudly mixing my metaphors:) because obviously there is a lot of sensitivity regarding the perception of interior designers and decorators. But I think that with a career so open to subjective assessment as this, these professionals have to be prepared to justify themselves more then others. Fair or not.

Design is a process, and the product, a beautiful room, may end up being compromised by a number of unavoidable factors: budget constraints, artistic disagreement, fickle clientele. So I think communication is most key. And as the professional the onus is on the designer to document the process check and double check for satisfaction and to temper impulses to follow a design script about what 'needs' to be done to a clients home and in what order.

I don't think anyone disputes that the trained eye of a design professional is invaluable but perhaps some designers are victims of the status of their customer base. Catering often to wealthy or at least upwardly mobile customer that perhaps doesn't scrutinize a bill a closely because they don't need to. But to make design more accessible to everyone and shake off stereotypes this needs to change.

I am waiting to hear from some of the commenters in this thread telling us how today their bosses pointed out that they didn't exactly follow his instructions for their recent assigments, and so they will only be paid for half their work over the last month. I eagerly await their enthusiastic agreement with their bosses' actions.

I agree with your point that if an employee doesn't follow his boss's instructions exactly he still gets paid. But my husband is an engineering consultant, and if his client asks him to perform a service and he performs additional services not requested or authorized by the client, he may not get paid. Or the amount he has billed may be negotiated down by the client, so that he is only partially paid the billed amount. I worked as a consultant in a different industry, and this type of thing was common in my job as well.

I don't think a designer's job is the same relationship as employer/employee. I think it functions much more as a consultant type relationship.

I have never used an interior designer, but I have used a few decorators. A couple of them have been terrible, not listening to my requests and only able to decorate in one or two ways that they like. But the others have been worth their weight in gold and saved me a ton of money. They were easy to deal with, mindful of my budget, worked with my existing furniture, very much kept in mind that I don't change decor very often so the result needed to look good for a long time, mindful of my family's lifestyle, and took my requests and turned them into something far more beautiful than I could have ever done. The decorator I like the best helped me with some of the rooms in my house 12 years ago, and I love those rooms still today just as much as I did the day we finished them.

Another decorator I loved (she moved) helped a friend of mine who still had harvest gold in her bathroom and couldn't afford to change it. They turned that bathroom into the cutest room, my jaw dropped when I saw it.

Until I found someone I really liked, I just went really slow and was very specific and very clear about my budget when I tried a new decorator. When I've tried a new one who wouldn't listen or kept pushing me too much toward her certain style, then I just paid her for the consult and ended the relationship. I figure that's part of the cost of decorating my home, just like if I have to find a new doctor I would still pay him for my exam. But I would definitely negotiate the bill if a decorator exceeded my crystal clear instructions about my budget and what I wanted to accomplish.

But I would definitely negotiate the bill if a decorator exceeded my crystal clear instructions about my budget and what I wanted to accomplish.

There was nothing crystal clear here. Instead of immediately shutting down the designer's first attempts to discuss furniture and fabrics, the OP went along and participated in discussoins. That's enough to create a contract in fact in any common law jurisdiction I am aware of. So, the money is owed.

Frankly, if someone tried to argue with her over a bill in the hundreds, not thousands, of dollars after she legitimately put in the work and the client actively participated, I wouldn't be surprised if she just said no and sent the bill to collections. After judgment, the client could then fondly reminisce about her brave moment of defiance every time she was subsequently denied for a car loan or mortgage.

Pay the bill, cut ties and move on.

Girlville, you are both right and not, about clients with resources and the scrutiny of bills.
For some people, the size of the bill is always going to be manageable, but while some of them are paying not to have to worry about it, and say to a well-known or trusted designer, "Just do it and send me the bill," many others are prosperous precisely because they understand how to set and manage a budget, and they can be the most persnickety - and sometimes tight-fisted - of all.

In my experience, attitudes toward money are based much more on upbringing, life experience, and personal issues than they are the size of the bank account.

However, the amount of shock expressed at the bill suggests the OP really needs to reassess expectations of what professional design services cost.

Second, the OP also said that upon receiving the bill, she simply put it aside and did not pay it. I cannot think of any possible excuse for this behavior.

Insert Dental for professional design. Or automotive repair.

Everything costs more than we think it should!!

But I agree with Marcolo, pay the bill, or as others suggest, negotiate, but don't stick your head in the sand.

Business deals should be clear at the onset of hiring.
Hiring is done by the client saying 'YES you are hired' and a contract spelling out all details of what is to be done as business and fees should be drawn out. Nothing was done without a signature and a deposit if applicable at that time (drawings approved, etc).

I had a blank section in my contracts for deliverables.
I explained how I charged and what estimates would be,for each service and estimate what her job might cost in each department. I charged for the time I spent setting up my sources and charged for that, no hand-holding necessary if my selections are marked at where my client goes to view, she/he makes selections, signs the order for them and leaves the deposit. I did same with appliances and all aspects of job. My sources called, emailed or faxed me selections, all signed. Then the selections all recorded. The client knew that if I went to be with her for the whole process that would be a charge separate from my setting it all up with source. We called it 'consulting fee'. They knew the difference and the charges. When we met, I reminded them my time as consultant started and when ended (mentioned in a casual way) but clear on what was going on.

In other words, the client knew what to expect and when, also could call me with a question. My clients knew when our next meeting was and what I expected them to have done and what I was also bringing to the table that week and then review.

There is no room in any business for conclusions without discussion. If something is not clear, it is not good business. I loved (saying past tense because I am now retired) working with clients who had used a designer before, they knew the 'ropes' and how things worked. Otherwise first time clients DO need their hands held and led along the way as to how the process works. So, yes, you will have to invest more time in first-time designer users, and if you don't like this type of client, then change your target audience because they will all the the same (first timers) they need their hands held. So, you build in that first experience 'factor' into your fee with limits as to what you will do spelled out ahead of time.

Scams take two people, one who is trying to get your money without doing much. And one who is trying not to pay for what they are getting or to get something for nothing. When the two meet it is not business, it is a scam.

I agree that you should contact her and work something out. I think it's fair to negotiate the amount down, since it sounds like she has done work beyond what you've asked her to do. Keep in mind that at some point you're going to see diminishing returns from pushing the issue too far, so it's probably in your best interest to work something out with her.

Marcolo, I wouldn't be so quick to say that there is a contract -- it doesn't sound like there was a "meeting of the minds" as to the scope of the work.

I think most of us who do work for clients have to deal with clients questioning bills, etc. If I did work for a client who thought it was beyond the scope of our engagement, you can bet that I would be held accountable in one way or another. I don't think this issue is unique to the design world, though I understand it can be harder for designers and decorators to "prove" what they've done.

Marcolo, I wouldn't be so quick to say that there is a contract -- it doesn't sound like there was a "meeting of the minds" as to the scope of the work

LOL. I don't think Clarence Darrow is going to come riding to the rescue for the OP here.

Again, people keep glossing over two very important things.

First, if you are going to argue with a bill for less than a day's work--we're literally talking about a difference of a couple of hours here--you really are overreaching your budget by hiring a professional. It can take an entire day in a design center just to shop for a sofa fabric, going from showroom to showroom and waiting for the ditz behind the counter to pull the swatches for you.

Second, the OP didn't pay the bill. Now that she's in arrears, her moral high ground has turned into a nice deep hole.

A small client with a limited budget who quibbles over a couple of hours and doesn't even pay their bill has zero negotiating leverage. Zero.

Is the designer going to be quaking in her boots in fear of losing out of the potential for perhaps, um, tens of dollars in profit? Or of being badmouthed to other potential low-budget, non-paying clients?

The OP seems primarily irritated by the bad communication she suffered through with this designer, and that's legitimate. But some of this thread has kind of wandered far from the facts on the ground.

LOL, I wasn't the one giving quasi-legal advice. ;)

I don't think anyone necessarily has the moral high ground here. And, as I said, I think it's in the best interest of both parties to find some middle ground here -- I don't think it's in the best interest of either of them to push this too far, as the costs of doing so will quickly overrun the disputed amount.

But delaying payment for a month doesn't mean that you owe someone the full amount. Some of our (corporate) clients delay paying for longer than that, but that doesn't mean they don't think they can come back and ask questions about the bill!

Yes, you were.

Again, this isn't one of your "corporate clients." Part of the reason these discussions often become unproductive is the assumption that any professional should be grateful for any amount of business from any client. Anybody who believes that is out of business by now, or heading there fast.

"A small client with a limited budget who quibbles over a couple of hours and doesn't even pay their bill has zero negotiating leverage. Zero."

A small client is still a client and it may only be a couple of hours but it was a couple of hours that didn't include what the OP asked and the designer failed to explain (from when the OP originally asked) why she didn't want to talk about paint, etc. Echoing again what Kathy said...
"It's the professionals responsibility to guide the process by educating the client. Instead this designer just ignored the clients requests, that's not educating or guiding."

Why should the OP just "pay the bill" without questioning anything? Because it's only a few hours worth of work isn't a good enough reason for me.

It's confusing....you said -

"I met with the decorator to discuss charges ($120/hr), what I hoped to achieve (I had a few inspiration pictures) and what she thought I should do with the furniture in my old house (I had pictures). She said to "sell it all - it didn't fit with the style I was trying to achieve"...
I sent her the piano dimensions, pictures of 2 dining room sets that I have (asking which would be more appropriate for the look I wanted to achieve) and a link to about a dozen inspiration pictures showing styles and colors I liked."

And then you said -

"She obviously had something different in mind. We didn't sign any paperwork, so I guess that explains some of the miscommunication.
What do you think I should do. Am I obligated to pay for her time to do things I did't ask her to do and for suggestions I won't use? Especially when she didn't do any of the things that I specifically asked her to do? I've just ignored the bill for a month and just got a new copy of it in the mail. Ugh..."

I think you did specifically ask her to do some of the stuff she did, it just wasn't what you had in mind.

I think you should just pay, and cut her loose, and also let the GC know that you were unhappy with his recommendation so he knows.

Although I recommended that the OP pay the bill and move on, since she is obviously not satisfied, I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with trying to get a better picture of what it was for, and possibly the designer would lower it, who knows. I am such a wimp that I would pay it as a client and lower it as a designer.

But I don't think that is what the Essence of the problem is here.

It is a difference of opinion or lack of understanding of the Value of the Advice.

If you go to a Physician, Lawyer, Tax Preparer, or Auto Mechanic and they give you their opinion or advice and you either Don't Like it, or Don't Choose to Follow it...does that mean their Advice had No Inherent Value of It's Own?
In the case of Dr.,Lawyer, Mechanic, et al, I think most people understand that it does, but I have heard over and over again when it comes to Designers in particular that:

unless you Like What You Hear--the Advice and the Work behind it is Valueless.

And, I think, (as it has been my experience, as limited as my clientele have been), that unless you Validate the taste of the client, by agreeing with All of their Decisions...Some of them Don't Like it. They are paying for a consultant to say everything they want to do and could do on their own is Awesome, and they've never made a mistake with a piece of furniture or room that they are bringing along for the ride. If this were the case, you probably wouldn't need me.

I am also a bit leery of the idea that there was furniture that was rejected by the designer only to be replaced with the exact same thing. I have had clients want to cancel orders for specific items because they have found the "exact same thing" for $XX cheaper at $____. And if the criteria is that it's the exact same thing because it has four legs and is made of wood, maybe so. I don't expect clients to have the same level of discernment between X and Y that I have, and they are certainly allowed to ask WHAT the difference is and WHY it is important, and if it is NOT that important to them, we go in a different direction. But I have had projects fouled up when the client has tried to get the "exact same thing" or reuse the "exact same thing" --and THEN they realize that it is not.

If I go to the physician, tax preparer, lawyer or auto mechanic, I am paying them to do what is correct for that situation, not what I "like". Repair the car, or prescribe the correct medication, etc. If I "like" what the mechanic does and he doesn't fix the car, but damages it instead, that's a problem. If I "like" what the decorator does and it doesn't fit the principles of good design, but looks tacky instead, as long as I like it that's what counts. In the case of a decorator, I am paying that person to help me achieve a look that is my taste. For me, there is no point to hiring a decorator if she can't help me get the look that is to my taste, not necessarily hers.

Perhaps my experiences are not the usual ones, I don't know. But the decorators I've enjoyed using have told me point blank that certain things I had in mind wouldn't work for the look I wanted. That's what I pay them for, to tell me what won't work and show me what will. Their "no" is as valuable as their "yes".

I do agree that the advice and work of a decorator has value, even if the customer doesn't use it. I once tried a decorator I did not like using at all. She came for a consultation ($120/hr, like the OP), minimum 2 hours. After about 30 minutes it was obvious it wasn't going to work for me. I listened politely for about 20 more minutes, ended the consult as pleasantly as I could, paid her for the full 2 hours. She was particularly insistent that I paint my walls tan. I hate tan walls in this house. I had tan walls for a couple of years and felt like I was living in a cave. I physically felt oppressed by the tan walls (in this house, I like it in other houses). But she took the time and expense to drive out to my house and discuss the decor with me, and it was fair to pay her the agreed upon amount. She contacted me a couple of times to discuss ideas and plan further (for free), but I was very clear that I appreciated the time she had spent but wasn't interested in pursuing anything further.

Fortunately I found someone else who didn't like tan, she liked yellow for my room, which I love.

I'm not disagreeing with the point that the advice of a professional designer has inherent value. But I think a part of the value is finding something that achieves the look his/her client likes.

sasafras, thank you, and congratulations for actually reading what the OP said.

I am wondering if there is a magic number of times people must be reminded that the OP did ask for and did participate in many of the activities she is now questioning. The designer--

- Created a floorplan, with the OP's knowledge and participation (sending in the piano dimensions)
- Shopped for furniture and fabrics (the OP did hear the recommendation to sell her furniture; did she explicitly say no to that?)
- Provided some furniture recommendations that came directly from the OP's inspiration pictures
- Set up a display of the furniture and fabrics after telling the OP explicitly she was going to do so
- Reviewed floor stains onsite (the OP left the meeting early and did not check back with the designer before choosing one on her own)
- Provided a paint color suggestion--yes, it was white, but that was based on her recommendations for her reasons

So, how many hours did that take? I would love the people who think the bill is too much tell me exactly how long it takes for a designer to do an average floor plan. Around here, $500 is a standard low fee for that alone. That doesn't include a minute of furniture or fabric shopping, which can take days.

Yes, of course this designer is not a good match for the OP. But she did do a great deal of work that the OP asked for, whether she realized it or not. Now the OP wants to know if she can skip paying the bill because she doesn't want to pay for "suggestions [she] won't use"--even though the designer did recommend a paint color (oh, white, that's a suggestion of no value); did come to look at the stains (oh, but I had to leave the meeting before we looked at them, and then made my own decision afterwards); and did discuss the DR furniture, even if she didn't yet arrive at a recommendation.

I would be interested in hearing how many hours people think all that takes, in their extensive personal experience.

"There was nothing crystal clear here. Instead of immediately shutting down the designer's first attempts to discuss furniture and fabrics, the OP went along and participated in discussoins. That's enough to create a contract in fact in any common law jurisdiction I am aware of. So, the money is owed."

Not necessarily. The OP asked specifically about three things that needed to be done first and ASAP. Instead the ID started talking furniture and fabric, drawing floorplans, etc. What is the OP supposed to do, tell her to stop talking? Stop drawing? I think the OP was doing what any of us would do, being polite and listenting to the ID ramble on on things SHE would make money off of. And having NO clue she was being charged for something she didn't ask for. That is not a verbal contract or handshake.

As I said in the other topic, I'd pay the bill, fire her and get everything she's done on paper sent to me.

It's clear to me this ID was only interested in material items she could make money off of, and wasn't in the least interested in really helping her customer.

If a customer has never used an ID before, it's up to the ID to sit down for a consultation, and explain every single step taken, and how the client will be charged. It's not the clients fault that they were bamboozled.

Daisy,

There is a big difference between designing a room that is an expression of the client's taste and simply validating every decision that the client makes.

In the first case it IS a matter of "doing the right thing" vs. "doing the wrong" thing, in order to achieve what the client wants.

I am not interested in recreating my own house or taste inside somebody else's, but I do get that there are designers that are one-trick ponies. But on the other hand I am not going to simply embrace everything the client suggests even if our tastes are sympathetic. I am Really not interested in working with someone whose taste I think it awful.--Nor should a client feel bad for rejecting a designer whose taste they think is awful--

But like I have said many times before, the designer's job is not to give you a room that is exactly what you would do, a designer's job is to give you a room that is Better than what you would do. Sometimes this means disagreeing with the client over some of their ideas or choices.

Not necessarily. The OP asked specifically about three things that needed to be done first and ASAP. Instead the ID started talking furniture and fabric, drawing floorplans, etc. What is the OP supposed to do, tell her to stop talking? Stop drawing?

First, I listed very explicitly what the designer did. In empirical fact, she did spend time on stain color and paint color. Was she supposed to interpret the OP sending the piano size as an order not to work on floor plans?

Second, if you hire a professional who bills by the hour, you will be billed for meetings, as well as for other activities you know they are performing. If you don't understand that, it is probably a good idea not to hire any professionals--not only designers, but attorneys, accountants, psychiatrists, plumbers, and electricians as well.

Time to chime in. I have been peeking in on this thread and I have been AMAZED so many feel this decorator "earned", deserves the fee she charges. marcolo you actually just compared her "professional" worth to be equal to a lawyer,and a psychiatrist?!! A possible two year degree up against 6-12 years of education, SERIOUSLY!?!? This world is upside down and it isn't going to get turned around as long as ANYONE is willing to "hire" someone to sell them the latest greatest fad in home decor to the tune of $120 an hour. INSANITY!! I have no idea if she "earned" her bill. When she said her fee I would have RAN away LOL all the way home. Because you didn't you got SCREWED!!

All right, kids -

This has been a wonderfully educational conversation on both sides.

I can't help myself - I must say that I think the hints of snarkiness that have crept in are entirely unintentional. And if they aren't, I'm going to think that anyway. Because this forum is nothing if not civilized and kind.

Tone of voice is extremely hard to transmit and to receive correctly in a written conversation. A vast percentage of human communication involves face, body, eyes, smiles or frowns, lilt, volume, and cultural norms. We don't have the benefit of those things, so we have to be both careful in what we say, and forgiving in what we hear.

I went back to the posts that were a little harsh and read them as though we were on the porch with a glass of wine and laughing, and they sounded quite different.

If someone reacts defensively or snappishly to your post, assume they misunderstood, and don't snap back. Imagine Meryl Streep saying your words as Miranda in "The Devil Wears Prada," and if it fits, edit! If a comment sounds cranky to you, ignore the crankiness, take a breath, and react to the content only. Otherwise, we could lose really valuable points of view.

And that's today's lecture from Sister Serena Opinionata.
I shut up now.

Arcy, $120 per hour is about middle range for designers in my experience. I don't know where you live, it may be different there. Our plumber charges $90 per hour. The lawyer just went up to $450 per hour.

I live in the south, and for the record do not resemble Miranda in form or function. Thanks for that, Bronwynsmom, lol----love the movie, love to hate that character!

I have to agree with marcolo, the designer did give the OP what was requested.

I had a designer help me with paint colors, stain and drapes.

I never gave her a picture of what I wanted as a finished product, we started with an existing sofa for color and worked from there. Each room had something to draw from for color - either furniture, flooring, or art work. You have to start somewhere for paint color.

For the wood floor stain, I had the exact situation. We had existing reddish colored wood throughout the old house and I wanted a dark floor stain that would look good with it.

My designer had the flooring guy do two samples that would work, and I could pick either one and know I would be fine. I don't see what is wrong with that.

I have have always had good experiences with designers. They have always saved me money in the long run. This time around, I had told the ID that I eventually wanted to redecorate the 2 upstairs bedrooms.

One was a priority, the other could wait. She came back with fabrics for both rooms. My husband didn't like the fabric for the priority room, and I wasn't ready to do the other room.

Then she came up with the grand idea of repurposing the drapes from the formal dining room that were removed for the renovation and using an existing bedspread. It looks great and was thousands less than I would have done.

It sounds like the OP discussed and presented her project in more global terms, and the designer proceeded in that direction.

That was not a huge bill. It may have been more than the OP was expecting, but I would say she probably did get her money's worth.

It also sounds like the OP was rushed at the last meeting, and the designer could have met her goals or intended to try to meet her goals, but the OP had to leave. I might have more sympathy if it was the designer who rushed off before the decisions were made.

"This world is upside down and it isn't going to get turned around as long as ANYONE is willing to "hire" someone to sell them the latest greatest fad in home decor to the tune of $120 an hour. INSANITY!!"

Rather than "insanity," I'd use the term "capitalism" when describing the transaction - supply and demand and all that stuff. To some people, $120/hr is an enormous sum of money - I drove by a rental house the other day that had a blue velour barcalounger-type chair on the porch. I'm pretty sure the people living in that house could not afford a $120/hr ID under any circumstances, much less an outdoor chair costing $120. OTOH I know someone with a painting by a major French impressionist hanging in the foyer of one of the houses he/she owns....someone with a museum-quality painting in a foyer is probably not going to quibble over $120/hr; someone who cannot afford to buy "real" outdoor furniture most probably will. :)

"I have been AMAZED so many feel this decorator "earned", deserves the fee she charges. marcolo you actually just compared her "professional" worth to be equal to a lawyer,and a psychiatrist?!! A possible two year degree up against 6-12 years of education, SERIOUSLY!?!?"

Yes, seriously. The decorator earned the fee simply because the person hiring her agreed to hire her. (I'm not commenting at all or implying anything about whether the decorator did what the client asked/the issue raised in the OP.) The number of years of education, credentials, and/or resume are all irrelevant. It's back to that whole capitalism/supply/demand thing - if someone charges $X (or $XXX) for a product or service, and I am willing to pay $X (or $XXX or $XXXXX), what do credentials or education have to do with the transaction?

What I am reading from your post is that you, personally, do not value the services of a decorator at $120/hr. Which is perfectly fine of course, but the point is, people who do wish to pay that amount will hire someone like that - hence, someone like that can charge $120/hr.

There are two interesting undercurrents here.

One, that interior design work is not really work.

Two, that scrutinizing bills is somehow declasse.

They are both bullshlt.

If you draw a pie chart of how an ID spend their day, a disappointingly small part of it might be doing the "fun stuff". A lot of it is dealing with the krap all of us complain about on here. They sent the wrong thing. This sub is not ready yet for the other sub. Such and such arrived damaged. blah blah blah.
Even the fun part probably isn't that much fun anyway, unless you share the tastes of your client.

I've been disappointed in 3 of the 4 designers I've used, and I do think they automatically gravitate to the best of everything, thereby upping your budget and their profits. But I suppose one also has to consider that since they know and appreciate the best, that kind of bias is bound to occur. But as long as they give me a bill that makes sense (and they pretty much all have), well, it's a luxury service and it costs what is costs (here, $150-175/hr)

That said, as I have harped before, I totally dismiss the idea that only people who are scraping by are careful about what they spend. My portfolio has nothing at all to do with what your good or service should cost. I think one must always have a healthy respect for the value of money, and not waste it. If money really doesn't matter, then try giving it all away. It matters to almost everyone and to be dismissive and irresponsible is arrogant.

"There are two interesting undercurrents here.
One, that interior design work is not really work.

Two, that scrutinizing bills is somehow declasse."

There's another issue here as well, I think - What responsibility, if any, does an ID have when working with someone who is new to the whole hiring-an-ID-thing? Does the ID have any obligation to educate, to clarify, to ensure that he/she and client are on the same page? Or is it the client's responsibility to say, hey, I don't understand why you're suggesting furniture while I want to choose a paint color...what's going on here?

In a perfect world, they both have that responsibility. But the punishment for not doing so should not be to invalidate the bill, IMO

This is not the hourly salary that the designer earns. This is $240,000 a year in salary and the typical interior designer makes probably a quarter of this. There is actually overhead even in the smallest of businesses.

It is naive to think that $120 is what the billable hours are for a psychiatrist or a lawyer. That may be what they earn as salary but the billable hours are at a much higher rate of at least $300-400 per practioner.

There are procedures that I do that take about an hour that are billed out at about $800, but if you think I get more than a fraction of that, forget it.

Spelling, punctuation, and reasonably proper grammar also make for a more compelling argument, by the way.

Scrutinizing bills is not declasse in the least. I found an error in our designers bill that saved us more than $200., and he was extremely apologetic about it. It didn't make me think he was trying to rip us off--- this was in round two, by that time we knew exactly what to expect---but it did make me pull out the calculator when the bill came :)

I don't think anyone has suggested theOP pay without an itemized bill. However, if his/her aim in requesting the bill is to omit the parts of it s/he doesn't want to pay, I think that is declasse. And wrong.

The ID should educate, but the client is also responsible for doing some diligence, asking questions and not signing a contract unless you're at least understanding of and comfortable in concept with the arrangement.

I spoke with a designer who I planned to use last year, and she was very up-front about her rate and the percentage of the furniture cost she charged. I asked her for a range of what she thought it would cost. She was unhappy with the question. I think we both passed on each other, as it was obvious that there wasn't a good fit. If I had just shrugged my shoulders when she didn't give me a range and gone ahead anyway, then if she later presented me with a huge bill that I was unhappy with, I would have shouldered part of the responsibility.

I never begrudge people a good hourly rate, as long as they are efficient with their time and aren't milking me. I think a good designer is totally worth it. When the ID I interviewed didn't work out, I ended up using a designer from a high-end furniture store (not a sales person, an actual ID with a real portfolio that was affiliated with the store). The layout he did for me looked simple, but I could never have done it myself and would have totally messed up on scale. So I would have blown a fortune right there on selections that I would have been forever unhappy with without his help.

I don't think anyone has suggested the OP pay without an itemized bill. However, if his/her aim in requesting the bill is to omit the parts of it s/he doesn't want to pay, I think that is declasse. And wrong.

Perfectly put.

And is part of a designer's educational responsibility to teach clients the most basic, fundamental principles of business and economics? Things like, lawyers make more than landscape designers, all businesses have overhead and almost no independent business person bills 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year?

If my dh did what the ID did, he'd be out of work. The OP said the ID didn't sit and talk to her about budget. That is the IDs fault IMO, not the OP's. The OP was told it would be $120/hr. But the ID didn't tell the OP she had a ton of work to do NOW which would add up to a large bill.

The ID should have said upfront she was going to do a floorplan and it will cost XY&Z.

When you give an attorney a retainer fee, it only covers the beginning of the work. If more work is necessary, then he tells the client before doing it. If he gets the work done within the retainer fee, no more money is owed. If his time is less than the retainer fee the client gets some of their retainer fee back.

They also sign a contract stating this. That's what good "professionals" do if they want to stay in business and not lose their license.

This has nothing to do with overhead, it's all about ethics. Plain and simple.

Professionals cannot expect a new client to know the ends and out of billing process. And the ID certainly didn't tell her client about it.

The discussion about overhead was brought up because a poster thought the very FEE in the absence of anything else was ridiculous. I was pointing out that just because you pay someone $X per hour don't assume that $X-$0 is what goes into their pocket. There was no comparison of overhead to ethics at all.

No, attorneys do not perpetually circle back to you to see if it's OK if they read one more cite. You should ask for and receive a ballpark figure, but no one knows in advance exactly how long every project will take (real estate closings are an exception).

In hiring professionals, I always ask for a not-to-exceed figure, but that is my choice. It is not required. You hire someone who tells you they bill by the hour, then you have to pay them for their time, as long as they legitimately worked it. It's that simple.

No one is arguing the designer here is a good communicator or client manager. However, I don't see anything she did that is as egregious as going into arrears on a bill.

I do get the sense that some people feel the world owes them luxury goods and services at a price they can afford, and that entire industries--multiple industries, in fact--should not only change their prices but also their business practices to accommodate their small budgets. This is not how the world works, sadly.

I've worked with numerous interior designers over the years on selections for two of our new construction homes. Some were really fantastic, and others poor. In one particular case, a certified designer I selected had obvious style preferences that were not my own, but she assured me that a good designer could design effectively in many styles, etc. She charged $100/hr (This was six years ago and in a rural area of the midwest.) We arranged to spend a day selecting carpet, tile, paint, and cabinetry, and she came along with us to meet with the contractors. Unfortunately, her attitude was completely arrogant and haughty. She insulted the work of every contractor we met, i.e. stating that the cabinetry design center display appeared as though someone "ran out of money in completing their kitchen and that no one would want that in their home". This simply wasn't true, and even if it were, there was no need to be so rude. My husband was horrified by her constant negativity and put-downs. It was truly embarrassing. There were many instances. We wanted her opinions and expertise, of course, but her condescending tone was very unprofessional. Worse, she recommended only things that appealed to her personal style (modern, contemporary) versus ours (think French country, antiques, traditional). At the end of the day, on our ride home, I shared my appreciation for a few treasured antique wood furniture pieces I had from our previous home and that I wanted to keep, and she made a comment that she "doesn't do dented/distressed/antique anything".

We paid her $800 bill for the day and severed the relationship. We then promptly returned to our contractors and apologized for her callous remarks. In addition, we changed numerous selections she made that we knew we couldn't live with and had no connection to the preferences we communicated.

Since then, I haven't hired another designer. Instead, I've taken my time finding plenty of inspiration online and in books and magazines. I've had amazingly great help from some of the free design services at furniture stores where we purchased our dining and living room furniture.

I'm a CPA/MBA and have an independent tax practice. The first thing I do each and every year with each and every client is create an engagement letter outlining the services to be performed and the scope of the engagement. Clients must review and sign the engagement letter before any work will be performed. This reduces the risk of misunderstandings. I would think something similar would behove any professional service provider. While your designer unfortunately did not clearly communicate the scope of her services (type of work to be performed) in writing up front, you still should pay the bill. In the future, should you choose to work with another designer, ensure that the scope of the work to be performed is clearly communicated in writing up front.

My advice would be to pay the bill and move on. Not only did this designer fail to communicate well initially about the mutual understanding of the scope of services to be performed, but she clearly did not listen as well as she should have. Going forward, you can either find a better fit with another designer (making sure there is good communication up front) or do it yourself. You'll find a lot of excellent advice and support here either way.

marcola, thanks. And I totally agree with your comment that "You hire someone who tells you they bill by the hour, then you have to pay them for their time, as long as they legitimately worked it. It's that simple."

I hope we hear from the OP and learn the decision. And I hope it is to just pay the ID and then to make sure all services are written and agreed from now on. I have noticed in this gig that dixieman is totally MIA!

sasafras, I was wondering if anyone else noticed that OP disappeared!

Yes, I noticed that. Don't you think that some people post in order to receive validation of their position, especially if it involves a controversy. OP may have been expecting and wanting positive responses only and when that was not the majority of opinion here disappearing was the easiest route to take.

I also would love to hear from dixieman ; her title was "what would you do?"
so it's not like she was not open to hearing varying opinions.

As far as the number of hours billed, there is probably a minimum charge of 3 our 4 hours for a site meeting involving traveling, then email time gets billed, the OP emailed a dozen inspiration pictures, etc. which I think could send mixed signals as far as wanting to get fabric and/or furniture suggestions or not at that pt in time.

A wealth of info has come out of this thread regarding the designer/client relationship and costs.

Yes, patty, I do think that sometimes! :)

I would like to hear how things turn out too. Maybe she has other reasons but I'm not really surprised she hasn't come back. Whether they meant to or not some of the comments easily could've came across as obnoxiously blunt. It's not what you say it's how you say it. Since we're not face to face it's hard to tell emotion and I personally think it's nice to consider how something could potentially come off sounding. However, there will always be people that don't care and "too bad" get some thicker skin if it comes across wrong. I'm sure there will be plenty of people here that don't agree with what I just said and that's ok.

"OP may have been expecting and wanting positive responses only and when that was not the majority of opinion here disappearing was the easiest route to take."

I think that's jumping to conclusions a bit.

Has the original poster ever come back? Unless I missed one of his/her posts I don't think so which I find strange.

OP should call the designer and apologize for not paying the bill yet. Then he/she should politely request an itemized bill. It does sound like the bill was for less then one days work, OP did agree to pay $120.00 an hour so whether that is a reasonable amount is not important.

OP did talk to the designer about furniture and fabric. In the end I think the bill should be paid after an itemized bill is received and reviewed.

Sorry to be MIA - life and keeping an eye on by GC and subcontractors got in the way...I followed this for a little while, then got out my checkbook and wrote a check for the full amount of the bill, not because I felt that it was fair or that I got what I had asked for, but simply because I didn't want to talk to the designer again. And I was really turned off by some of the "scolding" I received, simply for asking what others would do in my situation...

And to those of you who were sympathetic and offered their interpretations, thank you for the support and kind words!

Here's my thoughts on the entire situation:

I was naive about this entire renovation project. I trusted "professionals" and now I know that not everyone has the same ethical nature that I have. I honestly thought that by starting with "professional" architects, having them recommend "professional" GCs, having the GC (and architects) recommend "professional" decorator that I would end up with people who knew what they were doing and who would make sure that I understood the process. I started each conversation by explaining that this is the first time I've ever undertaken a project of this scope/nature and what my goal was.

What I found was that the architects would cover for mistakes/omissions made by the GC, the GC didn't check the work of his subcontractors and would often cover for them, and the decorator was completely a joke - recommending that I get rid of furniture, then, 6 months later, recommend that I purchase almost the exact same piece...I end my project much wiser, much poorer, and with not the best opinion of people who call themselves professionals. It's not that the GC hasn't made the subcontractors return to fix their errors/problems and that the architects didn't back me up when I pointed out the GC's errors/omissions, but it was clear that unless I did the research and inspections, no one was looking out for my best interest, although, when explaining what their role in the process was, both the architects and GC proclaimed to be my employee, my advocate and to work in my best interest. Hahaha...I still chuckle when I realize how I swallowed that hook, line and sinker.

As to the decorator dilemma, I appreciate those posters who offered insight, advice and were sympathetic. I think I must have struck an extremely sensitive nerve with some, especially palimpsest and marcolo, as I felt they were quite defensive about the situation and I didn't particularly care for what seemed to be a condescending tone in their posts.

I didn't ask for an itemized bill from the decorator because I didn't want to be charged $120/hour for the decorator to sit down and list all of the time that was supposedly spent giving thought to my project and I honestly felt that given my experience with the decorator, I'd have about $300 tied up in getting an itemized bill - which still wouldn't have made any difference in the bill. Was I going to say, um, did you really spend 3 hours looking through magazines to select that sofa - you know - the same one that you selected for another client? Rip me off once, shame on you. Rip me off again, shame on me :)

What irritates me the most about the designer is that I specifically asked for recommendations for floor stain and paint colors and instead I got a bunch of furniture and fabric recommendations. I can't help but to think that there was more money for a decorator to make by selling me furniture than by recommending floor stain and paint colors, thus the decision to start with the furniture.

If furniture and fabric needed to be chosen before paint colors, shouldn't A PROFESSIONAL have educated me to this point? Shouldn't there have even been a discussion as to how we intended to spend time in the rooms and if there were any special pieces of furniture that we wanted to incorporate? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to have that conversation prior to someone charging me for their time to make recommendations as to what furniture I would like. Would an attorney go ahead and draw up a divorce settlement proposal without asking me what I wanted in it? What assets we had to settle? would a doctor go ahead and prescribe tests and drugs without asking what was wrong...what my symptoms were? Then why should a decorator feel it's ok to recommend furniture purchases when what I've asked for was stain recommendations and paint color suggestions?

I'm almost finished with my renovation and have to say that I'm doing a much better job than the "professional" that I hired...Sorry to offend those who thought so highly of the decorator's suggestions, but they weren't appropriate for our family and personally I feel taken advantage of by the decorator.

For what it's worth....

I think I must have struck an extremely sensitive nerve with some, especially palimpsest and marcolo, as I felt they were quite defensive about the situation and I didn't particularly care for what seemed to be a condescending tone in their posts.

No defensiveness here. I am not the one who wasn't paying my bills. Nor were most of my comments directed to you anyway.

I am glad your project is nearly over. I suggest that since many of your issues involve communications, perhaps next time you are worried whether an outside service provider is following directions, you might involve a third party, such as a friend, to help you understand whether what you are saying is what other people are hearing. Everyone can benefit from a reality check on important emails or conversations where billing is involved.

dixieman you articulated your situation very clearly in this thread. I'm not sure why the decorator you were working with didn't get it and chose to do everything but what you asked for. Choosing paint colors last is sometimes a valid strategy but it's not always possible. Sometimes you have to choose colors based on the existing elements because not everyone can 86 entire contents of a room and start over just to facilitate picking a paint color. That's ridiculous.

Worse case scenario is later on down the road, new stuff is purchased and have to repaint. So, I don't understand her logic. I don't understand why she made it more than what it was and harder than it had to be. I don't understand why she choose to not define and confirm the scope of work at every stage - that's her job, not yours. It was her responsibility to establish and maintain communications and touch base throughout the process to ensure you were on the same page with her -- none of that was your responsibility. I don't blame you for feeling taken advantage of and personally I'd be pissed.

Maybe she's one of those designers who got "certified" as a color consultant where the scope of training is really just about how to front color consulting services to get client leads but never actually spec colors. Instead, once they get a foot in the door they sell window treatments, furniture, carpentry, etc. Conveniently they never get around to specifying colors.

I had the same problem with my designer. She designed all this stuff that wasn't possible in a highrise, I had to pay for all these ideas of her before she even talked to me about what I wanted. She wanted to make a custom couch for me that cost $ 13,000 plus design time and fill it with some inferior fill.

Felt like I was on a runaway train when I saw the first bill for $ 15,000!!! after 1 month of work!!!! She was billing me for putting the bill together!!! there was no way she spent 2 wks, of 40 hours a week, working at 225/hr to put together some inspiration boards for my kitchen, bathroom and living room redesign!!!! I live in 1400 sq foot condo. I had to stop the bleeding and broke the contract. Every conversation about why I had to break the contract and why I couldn't pay 13k for a couch and 7k for chairs was another 225/hr. She would then get on pinterest to look for cheaper options without my asking her to and add it to my invoice!!! I was afraid to tell her I didn't like her idea because she was billing me for EVERY conversation!!!

I paid some mark up but I have no idea what her costs actually were on any items. When I saw she charged me 3x on a rug (because I happened to see a original invoice) was livid!! I called her about it and she became so angry at me. I kept asking for orginal invoices, this is a best practice and the system needs more transparency. I saw the vendors because I went to go pick up the items myself after I fired her and realized I was charged retail prices or more, plus I paid for shipping to some receiving warehouse. When I told her how disspointed I was that she couldn't work in my budget, she told me I would never be happy and that I don't know how design services work (it cost me 225/hr for her to send me an email telling me that).

This design industry is full of fraud and abuse!