I am a rule breaker and going the no permits route!! BUT....appliances aren't moving, and technically no walls coming down (taking out a pony wall & sheetrocked pantry but nothing major). Yours sounds pretty major - I would worry, especially if you plan to sell anytime soon.

I wouldn't think of doing major work without permits, though I'd probably consider breaking the rules for minor work. The downside of getting caught is worse than the expense of obtaining the permit.

In our area, especially given the current economic environment where municipalities need the money, there are town employees on patrol looking for violators. I'm assuming if you're taking down walls, etc., there will be a dumpster visible on your property? Plus, yes, there could be issues when you go to sell.

when we remodeled just the kitchen, we didn't get a permit, for our whole house remodel now, we did.

you're taking down 3 walls, unless the room is weird, there are only 4. possibly one of those is a supporting wall....

in my area, if something changes the layout inside, you really are supposed to get permits. I probably would consider doing it in your case. on one hand its a PITA to draw up, and document the changes, required beam spans etc. on the other... its nice to know that someone is looking over your contractor's shoulder.

Do you ever plan to sell the house? If so, it could come back to haunt you later if you did work that required permits and you did not get them.

Eeeeee... The dreaded permits.

We tried to go the rebellious route and do our kitchen without permits, but we had some nosy old neighbors who ratted us out :)

I have to say that although I was against them initially, I am VERY happy we pulled them.

Having the inspectors come out not only reassures you that there is no faulty work being done (they will make a contractor fix it until it is correct), but when/if you ever sell the property like kngwd said- you won't run into any issues.

It's a pain the butt, but I think it is really worth it in the end - They can be RUTHLESS if they catch you without them.

Good luck!

For structural changes (removing walls), I would get a permit.

Adding new cabinets, floor, appliances, no permit (even though it is required, i think it is just the city making money off you without providing any benefit)

I appreciate everyone's responses here. We don't plan on selling anytime soon. There needs to be more discussion about this -that's for sure.

The electrical inspection is very reassuring--passing it means you are safer.

The water/sewer inspection can detect major mistakes.

The inspector, if experienced, has seen a lot of stuff and can give good advice. OUrs has described to us incredibly loony workarounds and some nefarious activities that have resulted from the economic downturn, including stripping out essential wires and such. Because he knows where to look for the common errors, he can give terrific feedback about the quality of your house and work. On the other hand, we're having a tiff with him right now because we took apart the basement stair and changed the pitch and now our gorgeous wood railing is two steps too short and we won't pass until we replace it. (Growl)

The fine (and DELAY) that you will receive when getting caught will greatly outweigh any "inconvenience" of going down to city hall now. They can make you tear down anything you've done behind the walls, even if you're sure you did it correctly. You have zero PROOF, without an inspector signing off on a permit. And if you don't do something right, and in fact do something extremely wrong and your home is damaged as a result, your insurance company won't be very happy that you skipped the "paperwork" and might just skip giving you that check for the damage.

You're removing walls. Not only do you need permits, you need a structural engineer to sign off on your method of removing those walls and to design any support needed to be installed to take their place. Don 't be penny wise and pound foolish with one of the largest purchases of your life.

I sure hope you do get caught, if you plan to remove three walls and then someday sell your house to an unsuspecting buyer. You'll start off with getting a stop work order, and then it will go downhill from there. Good.

What prevents your hubby from wanting one?

So many people I talk to are shocked that we pulled a permit for our reno. We actually relocated our kitchen to another part of the house entirely. This included upgrading our electrical service to 200 amp, taking out a sliding glass door, re insulating, sheetrock and so on..

We had to have a permit for the structural changes,walls, doors and insulation. The plumber and electrician took care of the permits on their end and worked it into the bill. IF we did not pull our general remodeling permit and either one showed up at town hall to pull their trade permits we would have gotten fined -heavily. Our permit cost was $95. The Building Inspector was extremely helpful with A LOT of questions we had - worth every penny of that $95 So many people retell nightmare stories about inspectors really? If you are doing things correctly and not trying to shortcut or slap something together, you have nothing to worry about. I think it's one bad inspector 60 years ago gave the whole profession a bad rap.

Also.. do you know what you are looking for on the electricians license or insurance to know he/she is qualified to do the work you are paying him for? The inspector does and its required they show it when they pull the permit. Do you know that in most states all appliances in a kitchen are to be on their own circuit in your breaker box?

Hasn't anyone watched Holmes on Holmes? LOL I'm sorry, but I don't want to be that homeowner who skipped out on the permit just to save a couple bucks, worrying about someone double checking my and the subcontractors work for correctness and end up with an electrical fire that insurance wont cover or some other BS down the road.

If all you are doing is replacing cabinets and counters and updating? Pfft I wouldn't worry about it.. but if you are doing major renovations? Consider getting the permit..

Just my 4 cents worth (inflation)

I used a GC and so got permits. Minor stuff which "requires" permits in my town? Nah. No permits. I trust me to change fixtures and install a toilet etc.

Wall removal? Get permits.

I think a lack of permits for a kitchen remodel involving walls cost the sellers of my "new" house at least $100K when they went to sell--and the remodel was done years before they bought the place.

Your homeowner insurance policy will be pretty much void if it comes up that there was not permit for big stuff. That hurricane would not have damaged the fence if your kitchen walls hadn't been removed without a permit. If you have a mortgage, you'd probably breaking your contract with the holder as well.

Do you really want to end up on your towns hit list? You might end up with the tax accessor, dog catcher, etc. all at your door. Plus the bldg dept will analyze everything you do. Just to save a few bucks?

In my defense, I absolutely 100% agree with all of you -this "not obtaining a permit" is not sitting well with me at all. What makes it harder for me is that dh likes that the one contractor, (who is licensed), and has a history of not filing and getting away with it, and dh wants to hire this person so he is completely swayed by him. DH thinks if the GC is willing to take a risk why not? This GC is in an unmarked van and plans to take away all of the debris in his van and will not have a dumpster sitting in our driveway.

This is really more to do with the raising of our taxes if the inspector comes to reassess what we have done. This is what Dh is trying to avoid.

I will definitely show my DH the responses here.

I would not want to do business with someone who is essentially a crook. He's happy to screw over the city--what will stop him from screwing over you? It's a sign of bad ethics that he skirts the law. The law is there for several reasons, but one of them is to protect you.

If you're not adding on, it's unlikely that you'll be reassessed, or if you are, that the value will increase. You might have to have all your smoke detectors working though!

"The electrical inspection is very reassuring--passing it means you are safer."

You must be kidding.

Most electrical inspections are more of a joke.

Inspector walks in, looks at the switches and receptacles, looks at the panel (I think in 20+ years I have only seen them OPEN the panel 2-3 times), signs, then walks out.

We immediately nixed the 2 GC's we interviewed who suggested that we not go ahead and pull permits. We sensed something shady. And the attitude that if the GC is willing to take the risk, why not? Will the GC pay any fines you are assessed if you're caught?

Not getting the work permitted can cause issues for you when you go to sell, even if it's a long time from now. And even if you're not alive, it can cause issues for your heirs. The house we bought last year had an unapproved bathroom in the basement. It was an estate sale, and we told the sellers that we would not buy the house unless they either got a C of O for the bathroom (which, given the work done on that bathroom, would have been impossible), or removed the bathroom. The heirs had no money to get the work done and had to borrow the money. It was a huge ordeal and almost cost them the sale.

florantha: "The electrical inspection is very reassuring--passing it means you are safer."

I'll have to agree with brickeyee on this one. Renovating my entire house myself, no permits. Found a few wires in the attic under insulation joined together not in a box. Nice.

florantha: "The water/sewer inspection can detect major mistakes."

Once again, disagree. Currently in kitchen reno where I uncovered the original stamp on the lumber saying "Plumbing inspection PASSED". Guess they didn't bother going into the basement to check the sewer lines because I recently broke open my concrete floor to add a floor drain and some other stuff. None of the existing sewer pipes were glued.

As for the structural stuff, I'm a structural engineer so I feel pretty comfortable doing it myself.

Permits-schmermits.

For the kind of work you're doing, I would NEVER hire a GC who suggested not pulling permits. To me, it's a bad sign that he wants to avoid the law. Like the guy all you want now, but believe me...things can change drastically once he's got a good chunk of your money and no permit. Don't.

It's true that overworked inspectors will just glance around when there's a GC whose work they know and trust, but it takes them some time to get that level of trust.

I recently heard about a house where they started demolition without permits and were given a five year moratorium on all construction. They can't live in the house, can't remodel it, and can't sell it.

Some people think that permits are just a trick to make you pay more taxes, but except for in truly egregious exceptions, the fees don't even cover the staffing of the office. It's called Building and Safety for a reeason!

I am in the middle of the process of getting permits for a similar kitchen renovation. I would never consider doing anything like this without a permit., not even if I were doing the work all myself. And I certainly wouldn't trust any contractor who would be willing to do the work without a permit.

Man, I love this forum!!

I agree that you should not work with a contractor who doesn't want to pull the permits. A lame plumbing contractor, neighbors who renovated AND our condo management company's contractor (!) were the reason we did not feel that we needed to get a permit. They all gave us the explanation that plllog mentioned, "It's just the city's way to get more money out of you". Being first time homeowners/renovators we stupidly believed them.

When we were snitched on and the inspector came over, she knew right away that we were lied to by the contractor, and was very nice to us about the situation. She told us that she would be on him like white on rice, and she was!

During our chats, she told me stories of stop work orders, fines and even a situation where the city had an owner pour cement down the drain of a shower that was added without a permit.

I definitely did not have the same experience as some other GWers mentioned with my electrical and building inspectors. Our city is notorious for tough inspectors though, so that may be why. Ours took their time and checked every inch of everything we did, asked a TON of questions and even answered lots of ours. One even asked to be invited to the "renovation warming party" :)

Better being safe than sorry was the lesson I have learned! A few extra dollars and hours of your time are very worth it in the long run.

For our reno we went with a GC who was going to get permits. We were rewiring and replumbing the house at the same time. I was here when the electrical inspection was being done - nice guy but he checked every single outlet and plug. We failed - twice. The GC didn't bat an eye about it - he just said that the guy knew what he was doing and so made the electrical guys come back and fix it. They did.

I wouldn't deal with anyone who said "I don't need permits and I'll use a white panel van and I'll only work at midnight ... (ok I added that last bit) but I'd be running fast from this guy. What else will he try to skimp on for your job.

We are pulling permits. We're also removing a major wall and replacing it with a steel beam .. one that is requiring us to jackhammer out a 3' square in the basement floor to create a suitable footer under the new columns that are supporting one end of this monstrosity. That has something to do with it.

In my town, if we were just replacing cabinets and appliances, I wouldn't even need a permit. But with the removal of interior walls, new electrical and plumbing work, (and closing an exterior door, and moving a big bay window) we didn't really think about it for all that long.

We replaced old cabs and counters - no layout changes, no other work at all, but just found out (after the fact) that our city still required permits. Not much we can do about it now...I was hoping to emphasize the new cabs and granite when we sell...now wondering if we should downplay it to avoid problems? Geez...one more thing to worry about!

Novice44, that's not the sort of thing that scares off buyers. It's not like you pulled out a wall or did your own electrical off information you found on the internet!

I asked repeatedly if I needed permits--found out they are only needed here for structural changes. If we had removed a wall, or built an addition, or even changed the sizes of our windows--would have needed one. But as we were just gutting the room and putting it back together, none needed.

That said, if I knew one was required for the work I was doing--I would get it. Not only for safety reasons, but it would be terrible if you went to sell in a few years and could not sell the house because it was discovered you did the work illegally.

Kitchennovice44, Most places will let you permit after the fact when the work is visible. You might check into that.

(Sorry...wouldn't let me post this reply under original subject line.) Thanks pllog...actually a great suggestion in a sane, reasonably-run city...but not in mine. I've seen them put homeowners through the ringer...even to the point of requiring them to uninstall perfectly good work...I already paid once for installs...and just don't have the budget to pay for redos if they decide to be hard-nosed. (And really, the work came out great.) So just a bit nervous about "opening a can of worms" after the fact. But I do appreciate your suggestion...I'll mention it to DH...see if he thinks we should chance it. He'll probably just lob it right back in my court and say it's up to me...ha!

Our city established a partial real estate tax exemption program in 1994 as an incentive to encourage residents to upgrade aging residential structures. The exemption amount is based on the increased value of a residential structure that has been substantially rehabilitated, renovated or replaced. The residential structure must be at least 15 years old, appropriate building permits must be acquired prior to filing for exemption. Improvement must increase assessed value of the structure by at least 15%, applicant should apply for the exemption as soon as necessary building permits are granted.

Exemption Schedule (10 years)
Year(s) Exemption on Increased Value (%)
1-5 100%
6 83%
7 67%
8 50%
9 33%
10 17%

Have you checked to see if your city/county etc have such programs?

Not all permits are a bad thing and they truly protect the homeowner in the long run.

Good luck. Pevo

I would file permits. I can't believe how little some of you are paying. We are remodeling our kitchen and baths and adding on 600 sq feet. Our permits were 15k...

DH thinks if the GC is willing to take a risk why not?

Why not? Because the GC is not the one whose homeowner's insurance might be voided by this. The GC is not the one who, years down the road, will be unable to sell the house for anything close to what it's worth. YOU are.

Also, how does the GC benefit from you not having permits? Here's how: his work doesn't get checked by anyone. Hmm.

In your city, I've seen them put homeowners through the ringer...even to the point of requiring them to uninstall perfectly good work...I already paid once for installs...and just don't have the budget to pay for redos if they decide to be hard-nosed.

...and you're still considering not getting permits?! Seriously? That's nuts.

You're seriously considering tearing out walls and starting work that you can't afford to finish if they make you tear it out, which they will do if they find out you're doing work without a permit?

How on earth does that not result in an immediate "HELL NO" when someone suggests doing this work without permits?! Do you want to live in a half-demoed kitchen for years, until you can afford to redo the work properly?

Our town put us through the ringer getting permits (that is putting it very mildly) and I'd avoid that in the future if possible. Unless someone is extending, I have yet to see it be a problem in a house sale after over 21 years as a real estate agent. Decks, bathrooms, dormers, extensions, pools, etc... absolutely need permits and c.o.s..
Appraisers for the bank look at the survey and anything that does not appear to be on it. They couldn't care less about renovation permits unless you add to the size or put in another bathroom (or 2nd kitchen).
I'd let sleeping dogs lie unless you had to disturb them. Maybe your town is lovely to deal with (ha!), but ours sure wasn't. If you want to check the work being done, you could always hire a licensed home inspector near the end.

Our city would require us to make so many "upgrades" to the rest of the house that it wouldn't be worth it to bother with upgrading the kitchen. So, yes, we're doing this without permits!

Here's another point of view.

My DH & STBX is a GC.
He was the GC to rebuild our house after our fire in 2005. By license & contract with the insurance company. Well, you've heard how I've been living.

When the fire marshall & insurance investigators came to examine & find the cause of the fire, they looked at the original plans & permits from the first owner, who built the house. They compared lay-out & wiring, and everything they could. They looked to see if subsequent permits had been pulled for anything. Well, I know they missed a lot of previous owner's "Upgrades" which were horrible fire hazards & known to spark. NOT the cause of the fire & not my point.

The Marshall looks for criminality, the Insurance Investigator looks for accountability.

We had yet to do anything on the house, so we were in the clear. However, they had the authority and right to go back to the original owner had there been faulty work done without permits that caused the fire. Liability doesn't end with a sale.

If we had gotten permits after the fire, I probably wouldn't have had to re-do part of my roof, all the plumbing in the crawlspaces & sinks, EVERY single outlet & wire pulled, (stop me) because the inspectors would have been on DH like (I quote) white on rice. In the meanwhile, my his "good enough for now" work has cost me $1000s in do-over money that could have put gutters & siding on the house, hang and finish drywall, etc.

But at least I know the things done post-DH are done correctly, safely, BY CODE, and with people who back their work.

When my power up was inspected after the solar panel installation, the Inspector called me to the box and said forcefully, "Look at THAT!"
I was freaked, thinking, "What WHAT WHAT!!!"
He said, "Now that's craftsmanship. That's a professional who takes pride in his work. I don't see this very often & I'm going to take a picture." Which he promptly did.

I digress again. Not only can no permits come back to kick you in the butt, but the work done uninspected can cause you more $$ that you'd ever dream possible. And make you break out in a sweat when you find out how the person could do it so cheaply. I'd just as soon drive down a mountain road with my lights off.

Get the permits. Please.

Christine

I think a lot of this depends on where you live, too. Our state has strict disclosure laws, so I do know several people who negotiated offers down significantly after finding out work wasn't permitted, plus one who walked away (b/c it was a whole house remodel without permits). Also have friends who bought a house anyway because they loved it even though the PO had renovated it without permits; they were able to get a better deal on it as a result. For us, it was important to be able to advertise the renovated kitchen as being permitted when we sell so that we don't need to stress about a buyer knocking anything off for that. I didn't know about the insurance thing at the time, but read an article about that last week---apparently you are supposed to notify your insurer before starting a remodel. D'oh. Oh, well!

Our city is known for being a stickler about things (as is our state) but we actually had a really smooth process as far as permitting went. It was $600 which was a lot for a small budget reno, but the inspectors we worked with were very reasonable and knowledgeable---which isn't always the case (even in our city--luck of the draw!) They did not require us to bring anything up to code where we weren't opening walls except for adding counter outlets, though we expected them to say the whole room had to be up to code. They also grandfathered in anything that wasn't a safety hazard (furnace vent was) if we documented that it was pre-existing. Not a huge deal, and most of what we did we would have done anyway. The only big thing we did differently was putting custom sockets in some lights to meet the California lighting code, but even that was easy---we used the same fixtures and just had the manufacturer swap out the sockets. Several friends had also told us that they'd heard we would have to do all this unrelated work in other rooms (bedroom electrical, etc.) but when I asked, the inspector was very clear that they would only look at walls we had opened, and beyond that the only requirement was that there be operating smoke detectors in the bedrooms because the city tacks that on to final inspection conditions. We pulled the permits ourselves, which gave us a lot of flexibility to use different tradespeople (of whom most, but not all, were licensed; city doesn't care about that if the permits are in the homeowner's name, but the down side is you bear all responsibility for corrections, too). To get around that, we wrote into individual contracts that work had to pass inspection for final payment so that we were protected. I liked that there were extra sets of eyes on things since we were first-timers.

The other thing to be wary about with a GC who is not using permits is to make sure you know where your waste is going when it goes into that van. One of our friends who did a gut renovation of a house without permits had a GC who took all the waste but did not pay the fees to dispose of it that our state requires (which include things like job site address---assume that's why he didn't do it!) Anyway, he just dumped it in a poor neighborhood of our city (lovely...) where the blight inspectors found it and were somehow able to trace it back to the address---some packing label was in there. They slapped our friends with a a fine of several thousand dollars---much more than a dumpster would have cost! They tried to get the GC to pay but he had already finished the job and basically just disappeared. So there are risks there, too.

Like others have said, I wouldn't trust a GC who doesn't pull permits. And I must admit, I've been on the flip side of this - we had a witch of a neighbor at our vacation home. She was riding her broom over some such complaint against us when I finally threatened to turn her and her non-permited (and illegal) addition in and have it torn down. Never heard a peep from her again.

The bottom line is that everyone will know if you don't pull the permits and it's just a matter of time before someone snitches on you.

Yes, we pulled permits. We did it online and it was very easy. We replaced cabinets in the same footprint so I was surprised the city required a permit (anything over $5K is the requirement here). We were having additional electrical work done so I asked my electrician about permits and he said he always pulls a permit for his work. My advise is to pull the permit. I always feel better when I obey the law. :)

Dh and I had a huge conversation about this last night and he agrees that he was being unrealistic about the permits situation. We will be filing permits and so now it's time to price out architects.

I appreciate all the feedback I have gotten here. Thanks all!