Well, I think two doorways is open enough. I like a little kitchen privacy too. However, we do need to work on your plan a little bit. I just KNOW my hair will catch fire if I sit at that table while someone is cooking, for example.

Moving the slider is a good plan--but I hope you'll replace it with a nice wide window.

Thank goodness you're here!!! You do not need a KD who doesn't do what you want. Split levels were not meant to be all opened up, and if it's not the way you like to live there's no reason to do it!!!

The banquette is a problem. It's too near the stove. Being there, it essentially eliminates the 18" counter for emergency moving of pots, and the corner is too awkward.

Do you have an location requirements for the stove? Unmovable vent ducting or something? My first reaction is that since you're removing the slider anyway, to put the stove on the end, with casements flanking it and a backsplash in the middle over the actual cooktop, with hood above, and the sink where the stove is.

I know it's popular to have the sink under a window--I have it too, in my new kitchen--but I've had sinks that face walls with the window to the side, and they're fine too. I just think the stove right next to the seating, especially a bank that's hard to jump up from, is too much of a safety hazard.

Another little thing is the pantry. Definitely go for the wider one--it gives you a lot more flexibility of storage, even if the narrower pullouts are easier to use for little things.

It looks like you're gaining a direct access to the dining room. That's excellent!!

It seems that you are not a fan of an open layout, although you understand the pros and cons and for you cons outweigh the pros.

Have you told the KD about your preference yet? If you're not an open kitchen type, you'll absolutely hate the open kitchen.

Regarding the design proposed by you:
1. Relocate the range away from the banquet corner as plllog suggested.
2. The corner between the current range and sink: is there any way you could relocate your pantry in there?

Corners are bad no matter what you do with them. It's nearly impossible to have a completely ergonomic solution to put in cabinets there. That's why, if you could expand it out to make it into a corner walk in pantry, then you can make the most of this space.

Then the 12" broom storage: unless you have a pullout type arrangement there, it'll be troublesome to squeeze yourself in each time to drag a broom. I have a similar arrangement and I often skip the entire exercise. I expect that it'd only get worse as I get older!!

Also, with all this, I'm afraid that you might need more prep space than what you have accounted for. Must you have a banquet or can you sacrifice it for more prep space? (I do not know your cooking style but assess it yourself by watching how much space your prep work usually takes up).

Hope these help.

Thanks for your responses!

Our KD is creative and she's coming up with interesting ideas and I just feel so bad shooting them all down. I just want to make sure that I'm partial to this layout because it's a good layout, not because I'm being closed minded.

pllog - I have considered putting the stove against the back-wall with the flanking casements and I haven't ruled it out, but as fori mentioned, I love the idea of a nice big window on that back wall (perhaps with a ledge for growing herbs, etc). We have a pool, so I like the idea of having a really good view of the backyard (we have a pool fence and our kids are never out there unattended, but you can never be too vigilant).

As for stove placement, our contractor said it would be easiest to vent it from the back wall or the dining room wall. Where we have it now will actually be the hardest because there's a chimney that they'll have to by-pass. We thought about putting the stove on the other side and moving the fridge to the stove side, but the fridge will obstruct the view from the banquette and we'd end up with two corners. That said, that might be the safer way to go - I don't want anyone's hair to end up on fire, especially since in a family with all boys, it would definitely be MINE that would go up in flames!

BTW - My thought about putting the banquette or eating-area in that back corner is because that stub wall can't move due to the stairs. It seemed the nicest place to tuck it out of the way.

homey bird - thanks for your comments.

We don't need to have a banquette, but my DH is insistent that we have an eat-in area and I thought that banquettes take up less space than a table and chairs (perhaps that is incorrect?).

I'd definitely be open to a corner pantry. How much space would I need to allocate for that? Might be a solution to the double corner problem if we move the stove.

As for prep counterspace - we have no counterspace now, so this seemed like a dream (I envisioned prepping near the sink), but I could be totally wrong. We're not gourmet chefs, but we often have a few things going on at once. I make my little one's baby food in several big batches, or we'll do a good bit of cooking on the weekend to have meals for the week, so I would like to maximize the usable counterspace as much as possible.

the corner you create by removing the slider seems a more logical place for a table-then I would evaluate the walls that face each other closer to the living room end as "a galley setup"..the one wall could be made even longer by moving the dining entry even further to the left. the outside wall near the table then could be embellished with windows..would really draw people I think.

Hi new_2_nj,

I think that a 3'6" x 3'6" corner can be sufficient for a corner pantry with a corner door (Fellow GW'ers: correct me if I'm wrong!). However, other GW'ers can guide you better with more practical experiences -- it's a feature used in many GW kitchens already.

Also you are right in that banquet will occupy less space than freestanding tables + chairs. My concern was mainly due to lack of prep space. Especially if you have a few appliances, then you will not get sufficient prep space. Of course, this is something only you can determine.

Here is where that concern came from: My current prep area is next to my sink, a stretch of ~4.5' of countertop. Even during typical meal prep, I end up cluttering it with vegetable peels, mixing bowls etc. Not to mention, you need some wiggle room to feely move your elbows in there too. If this is not an issue that you've faced, then you need not worry about less prep space.

Going back to the banquet: how about turning that stretch of countertop 90 degrees, to make a peninsula where the current banquet is? You can place chairs on the other side and use all that stretch as prep area plus dining. (Just throwing an idea!)

What Pllog said--don't stick with a KD that's not on board with YOUR vision of what your kitchen should be and how it should 'work'. Don't let yourself fall into the "she's the expert' mindset. YOU are the one that has to live in this kitchen, so your opinion trumps hers.

I agree with the others that the stove is too close to the seating--you want some space on either side of the cooktop to work and put things. You KNOW that the little kids will stand on that banquette seat, watching you cook and playing with their toys on the counter. I'm imagining someone tossing a ball into the soup pot....and you want a little extra space to make sure that they can't grab anything they shouldn't.

Cj

What about putting the eat-in banquette in the area where the wall-oven is now and making the kitchen a U-shape? Keep the sink where it is, put the range on the left wall, and put the fridge where your current eat-in table is. Your pantry can be where your current refrigerator is. You should be able to widen the doorway to the dining room, but it will stay in the same place.

Unless you have an unlimited budget, you will be happy saving money where you can. And even though it's easy to talk about moving walls and rerouting plumbing, it all adds up (and fast!). Keeping the bones of the kitchen intact if you can will free up some much-needed cash for those other unexpected expenses.

I'm glad you went looking for your own answers, New2. A separate kitchen is something I wanted to--particularly to make it a special place to be in itself, as well as to keep it from interfering with the moods and appearance I wanted in our library/DRM and living room.

For family living, I'd definitely position doors to keep circulation (i.e., family) flowing free and easy through the kitchen but almost certainly move that dining room door to gain a continuous run of counter on that side.

I've been waiting for someone to start posting diagrams, but in the meantime Herbflavor's plan in general sounds very interesting. Perhaps a modern cantilevered-out rectangular glass window seat on the pool wall with a table and chairs in front of it (also creating an attractive and inviting view from the living room)? Then a galley kitchen laid out to optimize function and appeal on the 2 long walls. That would help determine the best place for the dining room door, although toward to the table end would be good for access between kitchen and pool. The view from the DR should be attractive, though; no half of a fridge on view or something.

Actually, the fridge might do well directly opposite its position now. That would leave the wall to its right for attractive cabinetry on view coming up the stairs, it'd be out of view from the LRM and DRM, its mass wouldn't come between cook and diners, and the counter adjacent to the stub wall would be nice and open, as it would be with the banquette you're considering there.

I'm also a big fan of gaining extra work space and bringing counters a bit closer together by making one or both counters deeper than normal (say, 30"), so that'd be on my list to consider too.

Have fun. :)

You need to think about your kitchen eating habits. If the whole family sits down together to full meals in the kitchen, then a banquette or table makes sense. However, if all you do is sit down to eat a sandwich or drink a cup of coffee on the go, or read your email on your laptop, or feed one of the kids, maybe you can get by with a peninsula as homeybird suggested, and you can put the chairs under the overhang when no one is seated there. Then the peninsula counterop could double as prep space. Also if you do a peninsula you can probably put a cabinet on the wall above it whereas if you do a banquette your upper space probably would stay empty (not that some art work wouldn't be nice there).

About opening up the kitchen, have you decided what kind of cabinets you want? Do those cabinets "go" well with your dining room and living room furniture. I think it might be odd to open a kitchen with French Provincial style kitchen cabinets if your furniture style is mid century modern, for example. However, if you are using a similar style then opening up, even just a bit, would probably look very nice.

You aren't alone. I do not want an "open" kitchen. My kitchen is off my parlor which is my quiet room for knitting, reading and spiritual activities. Opening it to the kitchen would just be distracting. I'm closing one door, moving another, and I may put a curtain across the second doorway (because there's no room for a door to swing open).

This is my opinion only but...
Currently, you have a nice access to the backyard/pool from your kitchen and my guess is that there is a nice outlook from that slider. Do you use that a lot? Is that an integral part of how your family functions? If so, closing that will detract from your current kitchen. Do you have a good access to the outside/deck/pool from your dining room immediately close to the kitchen. Remember all your BBQ/food/drinks will be coming out of the kitchen in the summer if you use your deck/pool. How will you bring out all that summer stuff from the kitchen to the pool? Is there a second kitchen by the pool? I would seriously reconsider removing the slider from the kitchen... If you take out the kitchen slider and you will access the dining slider to get to the deck, then you are living as if the dining area is the "traffic zone" for the house. You have not created a "formal" "sit down" type of dining room. You are just creating a traffic pattern that goes through a tight doorway. The kids are coming in all wet to grab an ice cream, a drink, a sandwich through your dining room. No thanks for me! The window above the sink will not be easy to access for your kids to reach up and grab what you are handing over to them.

I think the kitchen needs to be able to access "something", either the outdoors or a nice eating area aka dining room. Completely closed in kitchen is not very functional in today's lifestyle.

I am not in favor of closing the kitchen slider in a house with a pool. My in laws access their pool through the dining area. I don't find that very functional. It is a pain in the butt in the summer.

Okay...how big is the dining room? Can we steal some space from it?

I now kinda agree with kaismom. What if you made the slider into a regular door? Below is an idea. The door would inswing towards the cabinets and away from the fridge so the fridge wouldn't be blocked. Also, the cabinet near the dining room doorway can be rounded as well as can the peninsula so the pathway isn't so sharp.

Click here to view these pictures larger

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses! I truly appreciate it.

fori - the dining room is 16' 2" x 11' 2". The dining room table is 10' x 3' 8". The room definitely feels nice and spacious - we only have the table and a buffet in there now, but the buffet will have to come off the back wall if we put the slider there, so I'm not sure that we'll have to much width left to give up.

herbflavor and rosie - I do like the concept of having the eat in area on the back wall near the window, but I think because it would leave the awkward offset walls left for the galley section of the kitchen, it would be giving up too much. Although thinking about it this way has me thinking a eat-in banquette area for four may just be too much of a sacrifice any where in the kitchen.

homey bird - I like your peninsula idea. My main concern with a peninsula is that my kids are really too young (one is approaching four and one is approaching a year) to make it useful. Stools, stone counters, and small kids don't mix! I wonder if I could lower it so it's more kid friendly and if we did, would it still be useful for prep?

cj47 - if my hair on fire wasn't enough incentive, the idea of Buzz and Woody floating in my soup is! Thanks for that reminder! :)

jerzeegirl - I've been thinking white Shaker cabinets with a soapstone counters. I think it would blend very well with our existing decor. Because we only have the living room and the dining room, there's actually not a lot of "stuff" on this floor. Although, the main attraction is the Thomas train table, which serves as a coffee table in a pinch, and that will NOT be an inspiration piece for the kitchen!

lyvia - I like your curtain rod idea - in fact it inspired me (stay tuned for my latest concept below). We have swinging doors now (one entry toward the living room is saloon style) and they are miserable. I can't wait to get rid of them. We're going to be able to do a pocket door to get rid of the saloon doors - whew!!!

kaismom/geokid - I totally get what you're saying about moving the slider. I think it will be better in the dining room for a couple of reasons. 1) When the kids come in and out of the house, they generally come through the den on the ground floor (it's where the towels and the bathroom are located), so they'll likely be entering the kitchen from the interior stairs. Also, our deck is broken up into two sections - the eating section, which is near the kitchen and the cooking section/staircase to pool, which is near the dining room. The way it is set up now is that if you want to grill something or get to the stairs to go to the pool, you exit the kitchen and have to move past everyone who is seated, so that's a lot of "excuse me" and "scootch in please". With the entry to the deck on the dining room side, it's a straight shot out to the grill or the stairs and those who are seated, remain undisturbed. Also, we often keep food inside on the dining room table and buffet so it stays fresher when it's hot, so people cut through the kitchen to get to the food and then back to the deck. The new arrangement would eliminate that.

Ok, onto my latest thought. 1) It's going to be really hard to have a nice eat-in area in this kitchen. We can probably get away with something dinky, but what's the point? If the kitchen was open and thus the dining room table was right there, I might be able to convince my DH that having the kids eat in the DR regularly isn't such a big deal. But, I don't want to really open it up for all reasons stated above. What if we did these custom room dividers on the dining room wall? This would allow us to "open it up" or close it up whenever we want.
Room Dividers

Is this the best of both worlds or just a mis-mosh mess?

Yes room dividers. IF.

If spouse is willing to eat in the dining room and not the kitchen. This is what we did when I decided our kitchen was too small to retain the little table. I declared we would eat in the dining room. Tada. Problem solved. But I just have a regular old door. You might be able to do dividers or pocket doors or louvered bifolds (not necessarily out of place in many a split level home) and just close it up when needed. Or even just a really wide passthrough kind of thing. No backsplash, no wall on the dining room side--just some doors or something.

It can be done, and it can be the best of both worlds, but you gotta do it right! (And my expertise ends at telling you to do it right! hehe)

Doing a peninsula at table height could work. I am short and would have loved having an area lowered to table height to work at.

Don't give up so quickly!! The kids aren't little forever. I'd put plastic floor covers, canvas chair covers, and heavy duty table pads in the dining room before tearing down the wall! You don't have enough storage room to begin with to give some of it over to ruining the formal dining room that you like. Moving family meals into the dining room seems like a reasonable option, with only a dinky sitting area in the kitchen proper. Keep the kids in the kitchen for breakfast and lunch, but start training them to sit properly and have a nice dinner conversation in the dining room while they're little. Then it isn't a lack of space issue, but a family unity positive decision. :)

I dont' know if you addressed this earlier in the thread or not... alot to read through. BUT... can you move the entrance into the dining room down further? A whole house layout would help but I'm thinking that if the walkway from the kitchen into the dining room was further down then you have a real kitchen proper that is not interfered with by walkways. Additionally, that means that you can go from the pool to the kitchen table with ease. Again, I don't know if this works with your home without seeing the whole house plan.

Did you see this kitchen, last month, that puts a banquette into a small space? They have the same proximity of range and bench back that your diagram shows, so maybe it's not ideal. I think their cooktop is induction, which might be marginally safer than gas. Anyway, it might help to give you a visual.

Here is a link that might be useful: jm_seattle's kitchen

Those doors could be just wonderful, so classy, light and airy. Plus, developing the home's important dining room space for family living, instead of maintaining it as a diorama most of the time, always strikes me as an enlightened move. There's a lot of fine furniture that'd handle all functions in great style, especially in contemporary looks.

Two possibilities that pop to mind: Installing that sort of divider above the kitchen counter. You wouldn't need it on a well placed doorway. It could also open vertically if desired, either up or down into the back of the cabinet. The counter could also be extended in depth to serve as a buffet in the dining room whether the divider is closed or open, just super functional.

A second: Consider including comfy seating in the kitchen anyway, with or without a little table. Without having to handle family meals, it could be a lot smaller and still make the kitchen happily family/visitor friendly. It sounds like you still have little ones following mommy around. I still like the idea of cantilevering a window seat out at the end of the room. Make it extra deep and they could play games, wrestle, read, and fall asleep on it too.

Sounds like you've thought the doorway thing through! I love the banquette that mnerg posted. If there's still not enough room, what about swapping the fridge and banquette?

You guys are great motivators! I'm not ready to toss in the towel on the banquette yet (although I might be when I see how much they cost - I'm sure they are a pretty penny!).

mnerg - thanks for posting that! It's so funny b/c that's the banquette that got me thinking about doing a banquette from the love it or hate it thread. Now that I pull back and can see the rest of the kitchen - that's pretty much exactly how I am envisioning mine! That will be very helpful for me to show my KD

remodelfla - that door can go any where. Originally I was trying to keep it toward the back wall - to be close to the slider in the dining room - but now I'm not sure that it really matters. In fact moving it further down might really do the trick. That may be in my next plan!

geokid - I like that idea, but there's just not enough depth. It would block the entry to the rest of the kitchen. Bummer.

I've done some jiggling to the original plan, but keeping the banquette. Better? Not so much?

Have you considered an L-shaped banquette? With the long leg facing the kitchen work area and the short leg against the wall/window? That would let you use less space for the banquette and thus have more counter space.

Another possible solution would be to make that peninsula table-height for now, and use it for baking when people aren't eating at it--a lot of people like baking counters lower than regular counters--but design and build it in such a way that if you want to, when the kids are bigger, you could pull the counter off, add some drawers to the peninsula to make it higher, then put the counter back on.

Hi all, I am new_2's designer and you all are a tough crowd! ; )

I used to post here often, but started doing more design work and have not been here in some time.

I never suggested ripping out the entire wall...I just thought for light, space and flow, as the first floor is not that large, enlarging the opening to the dining room would help. I also suggested a second archway, for circular flow, which would allow more light and movement into the kitchen, but still keep some wall space. I always keep in mind view from the dining room�I know I would not want to stare at my dirty dishes or refrigerator while entertaining.

I did suggest a lower height peninsula as well, which can be changed or raised once the kids are older.

I totally understand the desire for a banquet, but know that sometimes compromises need to be made�in my own larger kitchen (well, eventual kitchen) we had to eliminate it from the plan.

I just did a few quick sketches so I could get new_2's feedback before spending too much time on plans that no one liked.

I guess it's back to the drawing board!

soshh: If you put 10 people in a room you will have 10 different designs. I don't think anyone is criticizing your design - I think new_2 just wants to modify a little bit because she knows what her needs are.

I have always been a formal dining room person so I understand how almost scary it is to think about opening up a wall that's there to shield diners from kitchen mess.

That being said, I think you are absolutely right about opening the wall for light. If you take out a double sliding door and replace it with a single window, you will get less light in the kitchen. In fact, that will be the only window in the kitchen. I agree that the wall needs to be opened up so that light from the new dining rooms can brighten the kitchen. If the opening from the kitchen to the dining room is the same size as the opening from the dining room into the living room, that might make a nice proportion. I think the banquette takes up too much room. Nice idea but a comfortable banquette is just too big. Better to do a peninsula (or center island) that you can just sit out for the cup of coffee or feeding the kids.

I don't know why I'm spending so much time on your design...maybe I'm trying to forget about my own kitchen woes. :-)

Anyway, here's another idea. Cabinet sizes can be altered to make your specific appliances fit and you can alter the dining room/kitchen wall side as you see fit. But you get the general idea.

I understand your concern about your kids, I have two under five myself. But this is my second house with counter-height seating and they do great. At first we used a stool with a wide base and a booster chair for my youngest, but now they both sit well in simple saddle stools.

Click here to view these pictures larger

and

Click here to view these pictures larger

new_2_nj, regarding your concern about kids not being able to eat at the peninsula: I have a neighbor whose kids are 15mo and 2.5 yr each; who has a peninsula at regular counter height; and both kids sit in either a booster or a high chair and eat fine at the peninsula. In addition, this space is otherwise used as a prep space.

Hope that helps! Good luck making a decision....

Geokid, what program did you use for that? That is identical to one of the plans I did. (Although I sketched it out.)

I agree, that doing something counter height would give the kitchen more prep space as well as a place for the kids to eat snacks.

I also worked on a plan to tighten up one of the OP's ideas and give it some architecture. I think it could work.

Funny! I read your post about two doorways and thought it was a good compromise between being open and being closed off. My current kitchen is completely open to the living room and dining room (no walls at all) and I honestly don't like it. I thought a wall with one, or even two, regular sized doorways would be nice. What I do love about my current kitchen is the big island with prep space and seating. I thought new_2_nj would like it too. It's great for making food at and feeding kids at the same time.

I used Ikea's online kitchen planner. Cheap and easy, but you can't do custom sizes. It's fun for just playing around with.

How deep would the island project into the room? Wouldn't it get in the way? Would there be enough room to pass from the refrigerator to the sink without bumping into the island?

Full disclosure: I am not a kitchen designer. Just someone that spent about a year trying to figure out how to redesign the 100sf kitchen in my old house. :-)

I think I made the island about 3ftx4ft and there is 4ft around all sides. Another idea would be to get rid of one of the doors and put a counter bar and cabinets against the wall.

new 2 nj
This is none of my business but... Reading your posts, I feel that you have not clarified how your house's traffic flow works. Even the best designed kitchen in a badly designed house traffic flow can feel like a terrible kitchen. You must have a relatively expensive house in near NYC if you live in NJ with a pool. I would hate to see you pour money into the kitchen but not able to fix the house's traffic problem if it does not work for you.

Some things to toss at you: Do you need to rearrange the deck to optimize how to get into the house/kitchen/dining? Do you need to enlarge the doors to the deck?

These things cost nothing until you start to actually do the work. Play play and play some more on the paper and walk through the "rearranged" house in your mind how you will do your summer activities... If you are not the creative type when it comes to space rearrangement, put the entire house plan on the internet forum and people will chime in and give you ideas/feedback....

You need to work from top down when you approach your house's functional design. Your kitchen can't fix the bad house traffic flow just as the prettiest houses can't fix its bad location...

Reading your posts, I am not convinced that you have optimized the traffic flow of the house with the pool, den, cooking area etc. Do everything possible that you can within reasonable budget to get the house traffic to work the way it "should work". If you have not lived in your house a while, live there a summer or two to see what works and what does not work with the pool.

If using the dining slider works well for you, then you should put the kitchen opening near that slider. I think it will also look better to have an entrance from the dining room when it is off to the side rather than centered. You need to play and visualize that from the dining room as well as the kitchen. if you have a dining sideboard, where will that go? these things all work in consort with other decisions.

traffic flow wise, the door to the dining centered to the wall is too close to the living room entrance. it has not gained you whole lot. if you have to get to the slider to the left of the kitchen, then it really has not gained you much from what you had before (now picture..)

I just want to note that designing a kitchen for a 1 year old child is a bad idea. Children grow quickly, in a couple of years whatever you thought you needed for that 1 year old becomes obsolete. (Unless one plans on an never-ending stream of 1 year olds.)

We wanted eating space in our kitchen the first time we renovated because the children were only 3 years old. With 4 doorways and 3 windows the best we could do was seating for two. It was perfect for feeding the kids, crafts, projects, homework; they did everything there. Once they were about 6 we ate more meals together as a family, always in the formal dining room. The table, chairs and rug survived quite well. When the girls were 16, we remodeled again. This time we opened up the wall between the kitchen and dining room. The DR still feels quite separate from the kitchen and is still formal but I no longer feel isolated in the kitchen when I'm cooking/washing up.

Our old kitchen table

DR wall before we opened it (doorway was 30")

DR open to kitchen

We always ate in the dining room even though we had a kitchen table (OK, maybe if one person was having a quick breakfast they ate in the kitchen). I did not have a rug in my DR but you could put down a plastic covering around the kids. My kids are 10 and 13 and could handle the rug but my nephews (1 and 4) are here 2 or 3 nights a week. It can be done. I also recommend not designing the kitchen for infants and toddlers - they grow so fast.

When friends stay with us the always use the kitchen table for breakfast, lunch and snacks. It felt so wierd.

Also depending where the door to the deck is going, you could use a larger french door instead of sliders - it will take less wall space.

johnliu - Point well taken! We have no plans to try to one up the Duggers, so unless we have a big, happy accident, this will be the last one year old under our watch. :)

geokid - thanks so much for working on that plan (I need to get going with that ikea software) for me! It's a cool idea, but I think the two doors would look odd from the DR side. The kids would love it when they do their laps around the floor!

ideagirl2 - I like your idea about the L-shaped banquette, but I don't think the wall is long enough (based on the dimensions that I've seen online). Also, unless we trap one side, it will take up the same amount of floor space to let people in from both sides.

cheri127 - thank you for posting those pictures! I have to admit... I love how your kitchen looks opened up! Wow - that's a really eye opener for me. I'm a huge mission fan so your kitchen is right up my alley. I guess looking at a gorgeous kitchen isn't the worst thing in the world. One thing - it looks like your kitchen seating and your dining room table are run in perpendicular directions. Ours would run parallel and I feel like it would look weird with two tables, literally, sitting a few feet from each other. Do you think that would be an issue for you if your DR table was oriented parallel to the kitchen table?

kaismom - that's definitely food for thought about the house flow. I don't necessarily think that flow is an issue, but we do have issues with our entry points (front door and door from garage into den) - you just walk right into the room - no vestibule or mud room. It makes me nuts because everyone (me included) just drops all their crap on the floor and the couch and eventually (hopefully) it migrates to a closet (which isn't super helpful for bags, etc). Unfortunately, I don't know how to rectify that without making wholesale changes to the house and I'm not sure we're ready to go there. I did a quick layout of the two main levels (ground level - garage, den, powder room and 1st floor - living room, kitchen, and dining room). Both of these floors each have two entry points from the outside.

Ok, peninsula people! I did another layout the replace the banquette with a peninsula and uses one bench as the seating for the kids, but (I think) allows room for another stool. Thoughts?

I like the amount of space to each side of the range, but why put the DW between the sink and the range? It makes two zones (cleanup and prep) overlap, without any benefit. How about putting the DW (and thus not the trash bin) to the right of the sink, and then scooting the sink 6" to the right (you have 30" of counterspace to the right of the sink in that plan, so 6" more than you need to fit the DW there).

If you did that, you would have room for your trash bin to the left of the sink, where it would be useful both for someone at the sink and for someone prepping near the stove. (It also might be possible to put trash pullouts under the sink, of course--whichever option works best for you).

That peninsula looks good to me. What kind of bench are you proposing--built in? Or freestanding?

Also, not that 2" matters, but are you getting a special CD fridge? Most of them are 36" wide, not 38".

I like your attempts to keep a banquette in the kitchen. I also actually like a lot of the details of your new "peninsula" design but am afraid the functional weaknesses would kill it for me.

First, you have 2 lower corner cabinets in your main cooking area. I have one and that's one too many, even though corner susans are a lot better than they used to be (also enormously more expensive). Plus, it's pretty cramped. The counter by the fridge wouldn't function as well as its literal square feet might suggest, and, life being what it is, I suspect you'd always find yourself looking for something in the the opposite lower corner whenever anyone wanted to scrounge the fridge. (Maybe not a problem, but you and your hubby would need to draw it on the floor and see just how much space you require for leaning over. :)

That microwave counter (toast, coffee, cereal?) should work nicely for those functions, but it wouldn't otherwise function as additional meal prep space way over there. If your work area included the peninsula, it'd would be a great cook's space, but presumably it wouldn't most of the time. Then, of course, there's the sink/DW juxtapositioning...

No one thing would be too big a tradeoff for me to get a plan I wanted, but all together...?

What about this? The seating area can either be counter height or table height. My SIL has something similar in her kitchen at table height and it's really nice. She uses it for her kids and also for involved baking projects where it is nice to sit down.

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The counter by the fridge wouldn't function as well as its literal square feet might suggest

I agree, and it's part of the reason I suggested moving the DW to the other side of the range. The DW would be in your way a lot less over there, because that counter isn't going to get much use. But I do see what New2NJ is saying about the DW there being too close to cabinets for easy use (esp. easy putting away of dishes). I think what's really killing that corner is the fridge, so I would suggest actually switching the fridge and the microwave area. Put the MW in the main "U" of the kitchen--and that leaves almost that entire side of the kitchen (where the fridge is currently shown) as free and open counter space. That would make it possible to put the DW on that side of the sink AND still easily unload it into upper cabs.

I might consider dispensing with one of the corner cabinets and put in a cabinet with dead space at the end. There are plenty of things that you can store in the dead space that you use once a year. Then you can put the dishwasher to the left of the sink and the trash container to the right. I think there would be enough room for that.

Now where are your cookbooks going?

Also check out Finished Brooklyn Kitchen - I love the kitchen table solution.

Here's an alternative idea to the corner cabinet with dead space (the dishwasher still would go to the right of the sink). The cabinets would dead end at the dining room wall. Then start the opening into the dining room about 12" (?) inches in front of those cabinets - just like cheril27's opening into the dining room. You can do a 4 to 5 foot opening with tall pocket doors or even French pocket doors. Put the fridge on the other side of the opening with a 12" landing pad next to it. The microwave is the odd man out. I think it should be closer to the stove and to the banquette (but not so close that it poses a risk). I guess it could go on an upper shelf to the right of the dishwasher, but it's not in it's most functional place there.

If you use a counter depth fridge, you will most likely want an additional refrigerator or freezer (and pantry) in your basement (especially if you shop at places like Costco).