What is the space between the family room and dining room? Opposite the kitchen table from the sliding doors? Is it a hallway or Living Room?

I assume the half-wall was a load-bearing wall that was previously headered out? If so, then removing the lower 42" is easy - just moving the electric will be the tough part if you don't know how. If you remove that half-wall, can you then put your desk right inside the family room? On the exterior wall where it now meets the half-wall. I think that could work to open up the space for better traffic flow. It's hard to say without a layout of the entire space.

Are you getting all new cabinets? If not, moving the ovens and cooktop is going to be a real mess. Also, if you put a tall pull-out pantry next to the fridge it will be a real pain to unload groceries without that countertop there. If you do that I would at least put in a narrow cabinet or open shelves with a 12" deep counter along the other wall next to the fridge - that can also replace the freestanding bookshelf you have.

Also, one huge downside to putting the wall ovens where the pantry currently is is that when you are baking you will be blocking the doorway to the dining room. If there is another entry to the dining room from another room it should not be a problem, but if that is the only access it would drive me nuts.

Yes, I'd add another cabinet next to the slider - maybe open round shelves under the counter. You really should have more countertop along that wall. I'd also replace the desk (if you turn it into the family room) with a hall tree or something with coat hooks next to the door (in the bump-out).

Mobile islands - they are EVERYWHERE - just google it. If you want all wood to paint, try looking at unfinished furniture places.

Are you opposed to a range: you will gain counter by eliminating wallovens.I'd think of placing frig over at the end of run by patio door-move sink over toward corner a bit: gain of work space between sink and fridge.The old fridge space looks like a good desk or ledge/organization area with pantry worked in-thus the range gains counter either side.[Having a small desk or organization area in kitchen is useful-in my opinion]

Hi there. To answer natshultz's questions:

I should have posted the whole first floor layout - I'll try to later. It's shaped like an L - foyer in front next to living room. LR open to dining room. Coat closet and powder room in between hallway from foyer and DR. The LR and DR and foyer and powder room form the top part of the L.

The base of the L is kitchen, then breakfast area, then Family Room. So what is opposite the kitchen table is an open space leading to basement and garage and then hallway past powder room into foyer. Again, I'll post another layout later.

The halfwall is not load bearing. Our choices when it was built was a "knee wall" or a banister rail. Anything can be done with it.

Yes, if that is gone, the desk could go right into the FR on the wall on the other side of the current knee wall. I agree that that would open it up, and I like that idea, but it's not so much "in the kitchen" anymore. Not sure that matters to me - still trying to form an opinion.

Yes, new cabinets, so moving ovens and cooktop shouldn't be too hard (we've been told). We currently have a cabinet next to the fridge, and it's very under-utilized. We wouldn't use it much for unloading groceriers, so turning that area into a pantry doesn't really worry us. We use our kids table more for unloading!! :) Thus the need for an island there.

Yes, we were worried about the oven blocking the door. The DR is WAY open from the hallway and LR, but you have to walk AROUND the powder room and closet to get there that way. But how often would we have the oven door open while trying to go in and out of the DR? It doesn't seem ideal, but if you saw the current configuration from an elevation view you might think otherwise (what we currently have isn't ideal either). Again, I'll post some pix later.

For Herbflavor, I'm afriad of a range. :) I love my double ovens and don't know HOW people live with just 1 oven! We use both ovens on WEEKNIGHTS! I know I could get a double oven in a range, but my understanding is that one is much smaller, and then there's the stooping issue. Price wise, I don't know which is less (double oven + cooktop or range with top and 2 ovens). We are definitely replacing the cooktop, but are waffling on replacing the ovens. But I'll think more on it. You are right that it would give more counter space, and we lack that.

I thought about moving the fridge, but then we have to have extra plumbing expenses. Likewise with the sink, and the sink is under a window, so we'd have to move a window, and I think that would add too much cost.

Thanks for your responses! Again, if I post some pix I think that might help. I'll try to do that later.

Judy

I actually misread your post and thought it said you were going to move the kitchen/DR door to create more counterspace. That would be a great idea--close up the existing door, reopen it further down the wall, and get yourself some more uninterrupted counter space.

Regardless of whether you move the door, the wall oven needs to move further than just to that pantry corner if you're hoping to center the cooktop. You won't have any room to the left of the cooktop if you center it and put the wall oven in the corner. That wall oven will need to go not just to the corner but AROUND the corner... which is another reason it would be great to close off that DR door and reopen it further down the wall, probably right around where the edge of the fridge is.

Hi there,

Here's the first floor layout (very rough - not measured to scale, just to give you an idea of what's where, and some of the angles I did not get right):

Back to ideagirl2, I thought about moving the door between the kitchen and the dining room, but then I'd have the refrigerator left alone on that wall, and I think that would look funny. And to clarify, I'd center the cooktop in the space between the wall (next to the sink) and the oven, so there would be space on either side of the cooktop. That would give me more space between the sink and the cooktop (prime prep area) than I have now.

Maybe my floor plan will help.

As I was cooking yesterday and referring often to a recipe on my computer, it occurred to me that having the computer FURTHER away in the kitchen, or having to walk around the table to get to it, might not be ideal. I wonder if I could do a counter-height peninsula next to the dishwasher and put the computer (flat screen, no CPU box - it's a Mac) there...

Still thinking. I should probably have titled this post "where would you put the desk in this kitchen..."

Thanks for the ideas!

Judy

You said you plan to add some cabinetry to right of sink to extend to sliding door to extend your working space. Could you make that a true peninsula pointing at refrig? Make it 3+ feet deep instead of 2 feet. Get a walkaround computer and put internet connection there and a comfy pair of seats at peninsula and also put comfy seats at table by sliding door. Use them as magnets to keep computer in the room.

Access the blind corner in peninsula from the table side--maybe put desk items into it? (You can even put in a pull-out keyboard if you would consider "desking" the area.) Sitting there would give you a view out the door as well as a view into kitchen. This can become telephone station also. That's how ours is working out and there's still plenty of room on the other side of peninsula for prep or plunk, esp because I have one of my (predictable, yeah guys I know) pull-out boards there.

Consider an attractive bookshelf all along the half-wall where you had the furniture pieces. Spend enough to make the bookshelf area memorable. Art pieces? Distinctive color? You could even make the informal eating area one that has a "library" feel. You don't have to spend lots and lots to get a good set of attractive bookshelves. It will be the transition into the larger room beyond and it will define the eating area as well. Don't let it become a junk collecting surface. But good for keeping games, albums, field guides, as well as your leather-bound dusty law books and first editions.

First of all, I would take herbflaver's advice and move the fridge over next to the sliders. I would then put the wall oven where the fridge currently is, with the pantry next to it. That would solve the problem of the ovens in the DR entrance.

I've been racking my brain to help you with the desk issue. I'm wondering how long the wall is that is next to the current fridge and backs up to the powder room . . . putting a desk there may be more convenient, but probably also too tight. I don't get a good vibe with the peninsula idea though. Plus, that would take away from what I consider a more functional refrigerator location. Style wise, it just seems like it would make more sense to put the desk around the corner into the family room. But I do understand your desire for convenience. Perhaps getting a Mac airbook laptop that you can have on the desk most of the time, but bring into the kitchen when needed, could turn out to actually be the cheapest solution. Of course, my DH would just say you need an iPad in addition to your iMac - that was his solution. ;)

Hi there,

To florantha - yes, I considered a pennisula. But that would mean I couldn't have an island (not enough room). And I'm afraid it would make the kitchen look smaller - I like the openness it has now. But I did seriously consider it (I can show you the drawings). And if I put the computer there, I haven't gained any counter space - I've lost it. I wouldn't want to prep food near my computer.

About moving the fridge, I would rather not because of the cost of the move (involving plumbing), plus there is an air duct over there by the slider (that can be easily put into a cabinet toe-kick I'm told). So I think moving the fridge there would be more costly. And as the fridge is the least attractive thing in the kitchen, I like that it's not on a wall you see when you walk in. I am however considering getting a counter-depth one to make some more room for them mobile island and to save some space.

To be honest, the oven in the doorway don't bother us at all. We just don't have the doors to the ovens open often enough that it would be a problem. The ovens are currently close enough to the door that you couldn't use it with the ovens open anyhow.

To controlfreakecs, good idea about the iPad! That would save tons of money over a desk area. (We turned down having a very $$$ navigation/DVD system in the car because we kept thinking how much cheaper it would be just to get iPads!). However, I thought about it, and I'm just very tied to my 24" iMac. While I'd look at the iPad for recipes, I use the iMac for much more than that, which I'd want the large monitor for. We do have a Mac Book Pro, and I could use that in the kitchen proper if I needed it. So really, having to walk around the table isn't a big deal (and how lazy do I sound? Laugh!). Also, I could print my recipes! But I don't think I'd be happy with just a smaller device in the kitchen given all I use it for.

So here is the layout I'm converging toward:

The desk would look out onto the family room. The little wall it is up against would be shorter than our current wall, therefore increasing the openess between the breakfast area and the family room. There would be a little 12" deep wall cabinet that faced the left side of the person at the desk (if you know what I mean - the cabinet would point to the desk, not to the kitchen). The blue to the right of the desk would be open shelves beneath the desk, acting as an end support of the desk.

I'm trying to come up with a real drawing of what I'm thinking of. If I can do that, I'll post it too.

Thanks for the comments!

Judy

if you're going to change slider to two in-opening doors and if the doors can't be opened fully against the adjacent walls, why not put cabinetry fully up against the doors so that the two are only openable to the 90 degree mark? And during winter when they're closed the adjacent cabinetry is symmetrical? You don't want an odd little space on left of doors big enough for a wastebasket. Do your best to make the two spaces each side of door symmetrical. And consider bookshelves for the uppers. (Skip the angled cab unless it has a mate on right side of doors.)

Hi Florantha,

Very observant of you to notice that I left a little space next to the doors! My plan is to have blinds in the sliders, so no need for massive drapes, but I like fabrics, so I want to make stationary goblet-pleated drapes to go on either side of the sliders. That's what that little bit of space is for. I don't actually know how much space I'll need for that, but whatever I need is what I'd like to have room for. The slider has a transom above it, so I don't think just a top treatment would be good - I think drapes are the best plan there.

Also, it's possible we might do one opening for the door - it would fold back on the other (stationary) door, so we don't really have room to stack them to either side....

I understand your point about the symmetry. Yes, open cabs up top would be nice, and we are planning on that at the least for the one to the right. Hadn't committed yet to the one on the left though. And since the one on the left will be a bottom cab and an upper, while the one on the right will probably be a full cabinet (i.e., no countertop on it), I'm not sure they will be perfectly symmetrical anyhow. We hate to give up the counterspace to the left of the slider.... So the quandry is that we want the counterspace to the left, but having it to the right all by itself might look funny...

We thought the angled cab to the left would just soften that edge/corner. Our house has many unusual angles, which was something we liked about it. But I see your point. Nothing is set yet, so I appreciate the comment!

I'm trying to learn Google Sketchup so I can play around with different configurations better. I'm very visual - I need to see it to believe it in and make decisions. If/when I get something, I'll post it.

Thanks!

Judy

Piglet, We have an Atrium door in dining room which leads to deck and grill. It's opened for access all year. In winter I have a furniture piece against the fixed half of the door--just let other door go to 90 degrees when open. Having the ability to move the one door against the other does make summer arrangements work well--does not intrude into walkpath so we can angle from kitchen to door without walking out to the 90 degree. If we had the 90 degree, it would not be a terrific inconvenience, though, and now that we have air conditioning I wonder if we will leave door open as often as we did in past.

One more idea is a single door with two narrow fixed lights on the sides. In your case, the hinge could be on right.
These are attractive and the side curtains can swoop over the side lights without needing to be moved aside when door is in use. These are significantly more attractive than sliding doors if appearance of door area is important to the larger design.

I only have one suggestion, we solved a similar counterspace issue by putting the cooktop in the corner. It cuts into the counterspace on either side, which might be an issue in your kitchen, I can't tell from these drawings.
What that does do is give you a huge run of counterspace on the side where the wall ovens are now, especially if you shift ovens and pantry as you described.
What we have found is that having a smaller "everyday" run of counter and a large "cookie baking" run is much more functional than even the total space.
The secret, though is having enough room between stove and sink, and I can't tell how much you would have from your drawing.

Back to ideagirl2, I thought about moving the door between the kitchen and the dining room, but then I'd have the refrigerator left alone on that wall, and I think that would look funny.

Actually what I was suggesting was having the fridge and the wall oven on that wall. But either way, the fridge isn't "alone" on that wall--it's either fridge + counter & cabinets + wall oven, or fridge + counter & cabinets.

There's nothing weird about having a fridge and counter on one wall, and other appliances and fixtures on other walls. That actually is how the classic triangle works: either the kitchen is L-shaped with the fridge by itself on the short leg (or with one other appliance or the sink on the long leg), or the kitchen is U-shaped with the fridge on one wall, sink on another and range on the third wall.

In short, it won't look weird, whether you put the wall oven there or have the fridge by itself with just the counter and cabinets. Either way is totally normal.

HI all,

I appreciate the comments. I'm totally stuck with what to do, but want a reasonable plan so I can get apples to apples price comparisons (even if I tweak it later, after deciding on someone). So, in reply:

Florantha - I think you are suggesting a door that would swing all the way open and stack back against itself, or having one that opens 90 degrees up against a cabinet? I think the stacking back against itself might be the best, but then that messes up the table because you need more clearance in the center for that rather than for one that opens to 90 degrees. (I hope that made sense, maybe it will in my pix). It is workable if we move the table a bit off center off the door though, I think.

Cangelmd - We plan to do a hood over the cooktop/rangtop that has a mantel shelf on it, so because of that, we like it centered on the wall (or on the counterspace) between where we'll put the wall ovens (against the wall) and the wall with the sink on it. But I can see how that would give you a nice long run of counterspace. By moving the ovens over, and the panty to be next to the fridge, we do increase the space between the sink and the cooktop, which should be great prep space.

Ideagirl2 - I see now! So move the door to where the fridge is. I see. Well, we worry about moving too many appliances because of the cost, but that is an interesting idea. I'm still thinking about that one.

So, what I've done is this: I moved our little desk and shelf out of the kitchen by the knee wall to see what it would look like empty, moved the table to where it would have to be for the new door to open well, moved the desk to the FR (where I now sit!), and moved the shelf unit to mimic a very short penisula just to get a feel for things. This is what I'm thinking of:

I think doing the SMALL penisula and SMALL island (which would be a table or on caster - i.e., not fixed) would give me more counterspace and a nice place for a couple of people to sit. Also, removing the cabinets/desk to the right of the patio door would save lots of money from the estimates I've already gotten.

So, living with this for a day tells me: I like the penisula, and it would work with our "island" (currently mocked up by our Pottery Barn Kids table and a chair). But - the area to the right of the patio door looks bare, empty, and loney!

Does adding the penisula make the kitchen END there? If so, will it look dumb to have a cabinet (floor to ceiling, same top styling as above the penisula for symmetry) in that empty corner next to the patio door, as in this:

My fear is that doing TOO much next to the patio door, like this:

will make the kitchen too crowded and full. It's really not a big area, and I fear putting TOO much into it (plus that's much more money of course).

Do you think the middle layout above is a possibiity? Or by adding the penisula, does that end the kitchen and I shouldn't have the cabinet to the right of the door?

If so, I think the next best option might be to remove the penisula, not do the desk, but do a cabinet in the corner to the right of the patio door which matches one of the left of the door.

This is so difficult. Thanks for any comments anyone has!

Piglet

I'm suggesting a single door openable segment instead of a pair of swinging doors--it can rotate open as far as space allows, but at least 90 degrees. Each side of it is a narrow long window that gives effect like many entrance doors with sidelights. You get a little less light than a sliding door but you gain the drama of drapes without needing as much stacking space to the sides if you don't have the space, because the swing of the door won't interfere as it would if the swing reaches to the drapes as you describe above. You can have some sort of transom window above the three items that spans and unites all of them. I am assuming here that this is not a mod space, but hey, might work for that also.

We have barely enough stacking space off our Atrium door and the drapes catch in the shut door constantly--a nuisance and it derails the curtains sometimes. I'm not the only one with these sorts of problems. I saw a photo ad in the latest Midwest Homes for a decorator and she had actually put a knob next to drape side of a french door to hold back the side drape out of the way when it is retracted. If you think of the right-hand hinges in this photo as being my openable side of door you can see how the drapes would be in the way all the time, but I have no room for a drape stack on the other side of door unit.

Here is a link that might be useful: look at #7 in this series

I'd stick with a traditional sliding patio door for your space... With upgrades like hardware choice, wood species or grills it would be sufficient to gussy it up..the space is not right for french doors if it were up to me.The other things are confusing..you have a hefty kitchen along 2 walls and more...adding these other things at the eating end defies the need for some "negative space" from a design point of view. Can't you leave it out now, and add the hutch or desk later if you need it? I would.

Hi there,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been agonizing over the floor plan. This is what I've settled on:

So I'm leaving the space to the right of the patio door empty for now. I am very afraid of it being "too much" and then regretting it. I can always add on later. Herbflavor - is that what you mean by the need for "negative space?"

This will open up the kitchen to the family room, which will be nice, will save me money, and then I can figure out (once the kitchen is done) what I want to do there. Maybe just a stand-alone desk in the FR with a bookcase. I am sad that I don't have much room in my kitchen for a desk, but the truth is, I can't store pots and pans in my FR, but I can have a desk in my FR. So for now, I'm resigned to keeping the kitchen stuff in the kitchen, and not-necessarily-kitchen stuff just outside the kitchen. I could change that later.

I could also add open shelves to the space to the right of the patio door.

I haven't decided on the door type yet, but I appreciate the suggestions. We might also get a round table for the eat-in area, and move our wonderful hand-made wood rectangular table to be the "desk" in the FR. It's a great table for projects, and I use it as my cutting table for sewing. We'd never get rid of it. It might work in the FR space as a desk/project table. Anyhow, changing the kitchen table allows for different patio door possibilities, and I haven't explored them all yet.

My latest dilemma is whether or not this current plan can possibly allow for a very small peninsula to the LEFT of the patio door, where now I have the open shelves in the bottom cab. That creates a pinch point between the peninsula and the island, and I did not think it would work, but I marked it on the floor with masking tape, and put a small bookcase there to mock it up, and I'm not convinced it will NOT work.... my junior engineers, I mean, my kids, will be building the island and peninsula out of cardboard bricks for me to "live" with the space like that, to see what we think.

Any thoughts on a SMALL peninsula between the dishwasher and the patio door? I have 33" between the dishwasher and the extent of where I want the bottom cabs to go (8" from the door to allow space for drapes).

Thanks for all your good suggestions!

Piglet

since you are really working on that "small peninsula" issue..and you have a mini island..I would ask myself..why do I want this? Is it for the decorative counter edge there, or seating, or open display or to create a division line? If you do open shelves over to the r of door, later, don't think you need display.With a gorgeous new door and hand made table I don't think you need a division, because people are drawn to light filled and fresh spaces..and with a new kitchen, there's nothing to hide or partition off. Sometimes, at the end of counter runs, they can form a semi circular protrusion of counter material any amount you want. Perhaps?? Anyway,that dining end of the space getting your attention is wise. Lookin good...

Hi Herbflavor,

Why a small peninsula with a small island? Two reasons:

1. I am disappointed that our kitchen remodel isn't really giving us more counterspace, which we need. It does give us a little more towards the patio door, and it gives us more contiguous counterspace, which will be useful, but it's not much more overall. Adding that little bit of penisula gives us a very little more countertop (but to fit the peninsula, I have to shorten the island to be 2x3 instead of 2x4, so I lose counterspace there, but I gain more than I lose with the little peninsula)

2. I'd like a place for someone to sit and not have it be AT the kitchen table. Either visitors, or kids doing homework, etc. It might be challenging to make the small mobile island also be such that 2 people could sit there... so the peninsula allows people (maybe) to sit there, freeing up constraints on the island.

So really I'm trying to get more counterspace (without adding it to the other side of the table) and in-kitchen seating. But maybe I just have to realize my kitchen is too small to have both...

Here's what it would look like with a little penisula:

Maybe I'm just trying too hard...

Thoughts?

Piglet

Okay, I'm following-up to my own message. But I just did a few GW searches to see how much overhang one should have for a peninsula (15" is recommended) and I think the only way I can get that is to take the cabinet further to the door, and forgo my 8" setback for the drape.... but I found a picture of what I'm talking about! Here is a small kitchen, small peninsula, and mobile island/cart:

So, do you think this could work in my kitchen? Does anyone know if the 8" area for the drapes is necessary (I guessed at that). I think I could put an 18" cab as the peninsula base, with a 15" overhang (as in the pix above), and that would leave 2" for the drapes... which doesn't seem adequate for the drapes.

Or I could take the base cabs to within 6" of the door, and then take the peninusla 24" out from there and leave it open below (with legs, no base cabs under peninsula, so it's more like a table). Then I'd have the counterspace of 2'x2' with open space below which I think would allow for 2 people to sit there.... that might be cozy?

Option 1 above gives me more cabs, but less drape area. Option 2 gives me more drape area, but less cabs (same base cab space as with no peninsula). But it would give me 4 sq. feet more of counterspace, which is significant to me... I could see using that space to serve food or drinks.

All comments welcome.

Thanks!

Piglet

I'd go for a 10 to 12 inch overhang along the back side and with a rounded corner and some overhang on the cab SIDE end. We have a peninsula..don't think 15 in is really needed.On long islands with a clearcut seating designation, more overhang comes into play,but I'm seeing yours as less significant than that.Frankly-DON'T WORRY about the drapes. I made lined panels on a wood rod with rings and they slide back and forth-have a hook and a tie back just an inch or two beyond the door trim. They stack back with a tie back to just a few inches-and these are lined. the trick is the fabric has to be not quite as stiff..mine are floral cotton-and the lining is poly cotton to prevent bleaching from sun.These are panels-on each end,and sheers rest between,cutting the glare and still see through.You have many approaches nowdays to curtains/blinds.Think of kitch design first!

Thanks Herbflavor. I'm leaning towards my last layout - small island, no peninsula. I think I'm just forcing something that doesn't work well with trying to do both the island AND the small peninsula, and my DH and I both agree that we'd rather have the island than the peninsula (the thinking is that we can't really have both).

Thanks for the guidance on the drapes. I keep forgetting that they don't need to stack completely outside of the door frame. They can stack on or slightly interior of the door frame also. I would also have the option to pull them to the OTHER side where I don't have much going on at all. That's what I have now. I think they'd be prettier if I had them on either side, but I do have some options...

Would you be able to post a picture of your drapes and how you did them? I have searched for ideas of drapes and patio doors, and I haven't found too much inspiring yet.

Thanks!

Piglet