What is it that the contractors don't like?

It sounds nice to me...in terms of fitting in the house, the first "modern" kitchen would have been early 20th century so a traditional doorstyle and sturdy materials like you have chosen will be appropriate and not museum like, current enough to look fresh but not too trendy.

If you wanted you could do a fairly historic "early electric" type of lighting such as that made by Rejuvenation, Schoolhouse Electric, Barnlight Electric, and others.

For an 1850s house--is it an Italianate?--the more "unfitted" your kitchen looks, the more period-appropriate it will feel. Mixing cabinet finishes is a good choice. Does your cab layout include any hutches--uppers that come down to the counters? That might be a nice touch, in a completely different color, such as a distressed black.

Consider a wall-mounted faucet behind the main sink.

Post some pictures--of the space, as well as your choices so far.

As far as cab styles, I sort of feel I would go toward extremes--some things could be extremely simple, maybe even slab, while others more ornate. Brackets at the end of the uppers can be a nice touch. Check out the Crown Point site, or just Google, and look at Victorian kitchens. Yours is an earlier Victorian, so be careful of the late Victorian looks.

I am afraid I know what you mean about the folks you have dealt with in OH. I was up there last summer and visited and stayed in several historic Victorian homes. I am from the area and was really looking forward to seeing the restorations and the kitchens most especially.

I was so saddened in every single home. They were all so proud of their kitchens but each and every one was a travesty to the style of the home. They all looked like a 70's-early 80's kitchen. Nothing wrong and everything new but so dated. I didn't expect a replica 1890's kitchen but was hoping for something that reflected a sense of style and fitting to the period .

I was born in the area and hadn't been back in many years. I went by my old home place and my great-grandparent's home place and my cousin's also. Every one...same thing. From the outside the homes were still so wonderful...all except the awful storm windows and the siding on some but otherwise the land and barns were fabulous. But oh what they had done to the wood floors and dropping the ceilings...maybe it was just the whole area I was in....but I was so upset.

There are some absolutely wonderful kitchens in 1800's homes on the Finished Kitchen Blog. Please do take a look you will get lots of ideas and lovely support here. c

Hi Kate,

Greetings from an owner of another mid 19th c house (in northern NY).

I have been working and thinking about these issues for more than two decades so I'll offer some observations:

1) Don't waste much effort pursuing the "authentic 1850" look for your kitchen because an "authentic" mid-19th c kitchen isn't really practical if you want 21st c performance. I happen to own an unusually intact mid 19th c building -the State Historic Preservation Officer here to discuss National Register application referred to it as "embalmed" (!)

As the always-astute Palimpsest pointed out above, a more practical stylistic starting point is the turn of the 19th c/20th look. This is the first time period when the kitchen layout and work functions begin to become modern enough to be compatible with what you are no doubt hoping for. Also the look fits nicely with all but the most ornate, fanci-fied of late 19th c style buildings. The common mid-19th c trims and moldings fit nicely with the vague-ly "Shaker-ish" style that's easily found today. Also, if it appeals to you, a sort of light-scale version of the the Art and Crafts/Craftsman look works well with buildings like ours. (After all we aren't the first oowners who might have remodeled.)

2) An important thing in working with integrating the older building and modern kitchens, at least in my opinion, is to resist taking down walls to create the "open-plan" combined kitch and living space that's so common today. The idea is anathema to the mid-19th c building style. The original builders and householders of our houses were only a generation or so removed from pioneer dwellings where cooking and living was forced to be in the same space. The typical mid-19th c house was the outward expression of economic, stylistic, and societal progress away from the more primitive lifestyle required of earlier settlers. They would be bemused by its return to popularlity 200 years later. If one studies census documents from the mid 19th c you can easily see how common it was, even in modest households, to have a hired worker in the kitchen. And under those circs., there would have been separation between cooking and eating and living. It's fine to have directly connecting spaces, just not the all-in-one look that passes today for authentic old house farm house style. (Paradoxically, if you were dealing with a much older house, say 1750-1810, then the combined living space/kitchen look becomes more appropriate, since those buildings -at least the smaller-sized ones still extent- were pioneer buildings. But by 1850 it would have been seen as hopelessly dated and out of style.)

3. The next most important thing is the windows: try very hard to keep (or restore) them to the original shapes and placement, even if that complicates things inside. Picture windows, and in most cases, banks of windows, bumped-out windows, etc., break up the essential rhythm of mid-19th c facades/elevations in ways that scream modern, not old. If you absolutely "have to have" great banks of windows in your kitchen, then consider an addition that is styled to look like it was created in the 20's-30s - i.e. old, but not a fake 1850. (BTW, the solution for windows whose sills are below counter height is to run the counter across the window opening but create a little well at the sill. This is a convenient place for a planter of herbs - looks charming and still allows one to pull open the window as needed. Looks good both inside and out.)

4) As you no doubt know, built-in cabs ("fitted" as the English say) didn't exist in most kitchens in 1850. It's fine to hope that your cabs look like freestanding furniture, but keep in mind that furniture in an 1850 kitch would have been very utilitarian in style - no matter how ornate the main house may have been. In fact the grander the house, the plainer the kitchen fittings would have been because that would have indicated even less likihood of the owner's wife working there. If you want a hint about styles, look at molding profiles on your kitchen door panels and trim details. If what's in the kitchen is too plain for your taste, then proceed up a notch to the secondary bedrooms. Don't let yourself get swayed by the details present in parlor and front rooms - those were for show and company and not for kitchens.

I have struggled with these issues for some time and here's what I have decided is best for my house:

I'm actually moving the kitchen from where I found it (and where it has been since c 1875) to a room where I believe it orginally was before the house was expanded in 1860.) The move is mostly driven by factors unrelated to the kitchen (method of heating, arrival patterns of visitors, etc.) The audacious thing I'm doing is using half of what had become, by the late 1870's, the typical double parlor of the era (an up-market reno trend of the period). It didn't orginally have this double parlor, but I have indoor pics from 1875 and there it is - and still is, "embalmed".

I am replacing a window installed in the early 20th that is ill-suited to the overall fenestration pattern. By great good luck I happened to find a pair of sashes that exactly match the other seven on the main floor, so I'll be rebuilding that window frame and using them to complete the missing element.

For flooring, I'm simply going to paint the existing pine flooring, at least for the present. It's a late c 1880 replacement for the orginal wide board pine, so I'm not too troubled by doing that. Eventually I may consider one of the real linoleum products. But for now, paint's the thing. And I know painted floors, and oil-cloth covered floors, are both perfectly authentic in 19th c kitchens, so I'm good.

I'm making no attempt at creating facsimile cabinets since they would be imaginary, anyway. But I am keeping them quite plainish, as would have been most thing used in service areas. Painted finishes would also have been common; fancy woods like bird's-eye maple, cherry or mahogany would not. Even if wood finishes were used, it would have been much more likely that they would have been grain-painted ones, not the real species. (I have tons of grain painting lurking underneath the paint on trim and doors through out my house. I'm careful to do nothing to disturb it, but it can stay there as I don't like it much. It will be a treat for some other owner in the future.) Also I, personally, prefer simple painted finishes that are not distressed, purposely made worn-looking, dirt-i-fied or fly specked. I think they inevitably look fake and in the context of a real old house, fatuous.

Counters can be anything you wish; counters of soapstone have a somewhat spurious old-house association these days. In a few localized areas they would have been an authentic choice. In most other areas, not so much, because of the effort and costs of transporting rocks long distances before the Civil War. You may find a traditional local stone that was used, and that would be more "authentic." Granites, particularly the fancy polished stones used now were never used because they are quarried overseas. Marble table tops might have been used if it was quarried somewhat locally (or if your house is near a large river or Great lake), or in small slabs as a pastry boards. But keep in mind they didn't have counters, at least as we know them, so you're not trying to hark back to anything that ever existed, anyway.

Stoves (whether fired by wood or coal) were free standing because of the constant fire risk and the need to be able to move around the hot stove for comfort while using them.

Sinks were generally semi-freestanding, as well. If contained in cupboards, the cupboards are free standing. Often there was a hierarchy of sinks for stages and types of washing. Food wasn't pre-packaged in those days and food, even in city houses, started in a much more basic state and required a level of preparation that was messier than we generally do today. Hence the need for multiple sink positions, often in different rooms.

Kitchen tables were meant to be sat at during work periods.

In general, I think the most successful modernizations of kitchens in old houses are where people stay true to the simple decorative styles that might have been in use in service areas, but are not constrained by a need to dissemble about the modern things we have invented since then, like fridges, DWs, cabintry, etc. So I'd give thumb's down to crystal chandeliers in the old house kitchen and thumbs up to a stainless steel vent hood. Thumb's down to a vent hood disguised with roccoco carved paneling, complete with acanthus leaves and gilding, and thumb's up to a DW with plain front panels to match the adjacent cabinet fronts.

I guess my rule of thumb for the most attractive style of kitchen furnishings in old houses boils down to this: if the style originally would have been used in parlor furniture, it should stay in the parlor. I am much less dogmatic in modern houses, whether replicas or transitional. But in truly old houses, over-fancy just seems inappropriate, to me.

That's just my take on things, and YMMV. I've gone on at length because back when I first had the care of this house, I encountered resistance and incredulity from friends and would-be contractors about my ideas. At that point I would have been thrilled to hear someone else's ideas and their rationales. It would have saved me much second guessing and false starts, and moved me along my path much faster.

BTW, since you asked, I don't think that either the subway tile or farm sink would be authentic c 1850. But I'm not trying to dissuade you (and indeed I'm putting in a white porcelain farm sink, too), because they meet my style tests of being both simple and useful, and therefore appropriate for an old house kitchen. But there's no getting around the fact that they are primarily elements of the neo-farmhouse/retro-old house kitchen style, c 2000-201?)

And that's a good thing, because I can tell you from the personal experience of living with an intact 1850-ish museum kitchen, it ain't no fun!

HTH,
L

Liriodendron, that is one of the most fascinating essays I have read regarding kitchens. :o)

liriodendron,

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and expertise on historic kitchen renovation. You offer so many ideas and basic old-house design principles that will be very helpful to others on GW. Do you have pictures of your kitchen to share? I would love to see it!

Liodendron - WOW. Thank you for sharing your incredible knowledge on this topic! We are very excited about our new (old) home, but feel pressured by a certain responsibility to honor the home and it's long history. I know that I will be considering your, as well as the other posters, helpful comments. Thank you all!

Kate -

Id be guided by three things.

1. Take your cues from your home. Repeat or echo elements from the original home.
2. Go unfitted as much as possible. Fitted is an immediate post 40s time stamp
3. Remember it would have been used by servants. Keep it simple and utilitarian, but with gorgeous period appropriate materials and finished.

If I had wanted to be period correct in my 1840's home I would have needed to put the sink in my den and the stove in the dirt floor basement next to the pig scalding tub. What that tells me is that if 'they' were alive today 'they' wouldn't be worried about unfitted or period correct...'they' would be trying to make their house a home in the best manner possible.And if 'they' were on GW they would be salivating over your lovely choices.

My house is a greek revival that has had additions added over the years. I'm quite sure no one in the 20's agonized over the gorgeous wooden room they were adding in the arts and crafts style. Or the fancy italian water foutain and middle eastern tiles. I'm also pretty sure that even though they had the fanciest two seater outhouse in the county they didn't angst over replacing it in the 60's(yes, you heard right)with a modern bath probably never dreamed of by the original folks.

In my own case, we enclosed that outside italian fountain, exposed the stone wall, put in stone floors, the cabinets are vaguely arts and crafts of solid bookmatched black walnut and green marble counters. But we also have a huge honking blue star range, big undermount stainless sink and french door fridge. And a bank of windows that captures the view that ties every single owner of this house together....from way back to the day the home was built...everyone of us have loved that view, loved the land. And we are lucky, we know the family that built this home and kept in their family for generations, they were advised on every step...everyone that mattered felt that for 'this' home, the updates were perfect.

In short, I'm all for taking historical context into account when planning work....but please don't forget that it's a home.(And that your chapter is every bit as important as the first owners)

I love this forum! I was fascinated reading L's (and everyone else's) thoughts and insights on old homes/kitchens. Then I snorted coffee through my nose laughing about the pig-scalding tub. (ramses you owe me a new keyboard!)

You guys are awesome.

Kate - Congratulations on the new home! You've already been given some fantastic advice. If you haven't already, check out Old House Journal and New Old House. I think NOH may have stopped printing but you can still buy back copies.
Also, is this a home where you'll be renovating it room by room? If so, before you do anything I would try to find people who understand your vision and house and work only with them. I've been down the other road (getting the "you're crazy" treatment) with our 200 year old house and now that we've found our dream contractor, we will never tolerate it again. When you find someone who responds to your ideas with "Oh and you could also do this!" as opposed to "You don't want to do that", well it makes a huge difference.

Here is a link that might be useful: Old House Journal

Liriodendron, nice work! Thanks for your well-written piece. Great advice.

I will add that architectural historians find that the kitchen is almost always updated when people lay hands on an old house, even back a century or more in past, so an old house kitchen may have been a stylistic mismatch with a house's pre-Civil War provenance for a very long time.

As for lighting, electricity was unavailable until 1880s and many rural areas did not have it until the Depression brought in the Rural Electrification project. If you want historical flavor, get something with candle look or mock kerosene/gas fittings and perhaps a clear glass chimney. There are a lot of wrought iron skinny arm faux candle lighting pieces showing up on the GW these days. They're perfect. Copper, tin, wood are all good also. Hang them over the table and a work area or two or mount them on the wall. Go ahead and install a lot of recessed lights if you must, but put in one or two other fixtures that indicate that you're serious about honoring the past. No, don't do a schoolhouse fixture. Remember that in this period lighting was by window as much as possible--it was a social blunder to stand in someone's light. The comments above about windows are excellent. I would add that plain white cotton or linen curtains are extremely appropriate, and not fussy ones but ones that follow the advice typically given for Scandinavian style, with light-admitting fabric and simple methods of hanging them, sans decorated rods, etc. A line of lace or embroidery or a contrasting trim at most.

I've been hoping to find a thread suitable to recommend "Buckeye Cookery and Practical Housekeeping," one of my reference cookbooks for historical cooking. Originally printed 1876, reprinted by Minn Hist Soc. 1988. This looks like the right moment. From the chapter on Kitchens..

"It is almost impossible to give any directions except in a general way regarding the kitchen, as there is an endless variety of plans and arrangement. The main point is to systematize every thing, grouping such things as belong to any particular kind of work. For instance, in baking do not go to the china closet for a bowl, across the kitchen for the flour, and to the farther end of the pantry or store-room for an egg, when they may all just as well be within easy reach of each other. Study and contrive to bring order out of the natural chaos of the kitchen, and the head will save the hands and feet much labor.

"If kitchen floors are simply oiled two or three times a year, no grease spot is made when grease drops on them, for it can be easily wiped up--carpet or paint is not advisable. Neither paint nor paper the walls, but once a year apply a coat of the good old-fashioned whitewash. Do not have the wood-work painted; the native wood well oiled and varnished lightly is much the best finish. A wide, roomy dresser is a great convenience; it should have two wide closets below and three narrower ones above, with a row of drawers at top of lower closets. Here should be kept all pots and kettles, sauce-pans, waffle-irons, kitchen crockery, tins, etc., all arranged and grouped together so as to be convenient for use. If possible, have good sliding doors, and at top and bottom of same have a narrow sliding panel for a ventilator, which should be closed when sweeping. By this arrangement every article of kitchen ware can be inclosed from the dust and flies. A well-appointed sink is a necessity in every kitchen, and should be near both window and range, so as to have light, and also be convenient to the hot water. It should be provided with a 'grooved' and movable dish drainer, set so as to drain into the sink. Always have bracket or wall lamps placed at each end, or at the sides, so that the room may be well lighted in the evening. The sink should be washed and wiped dry daily, or it will become foul, especially if the weather is warm. When possible, a long table at the end of the sink, and so close to it that water can not drip between, on which to dress vegetables, poultry, game, etc., saves time and steps; and the good light, which is a necessity in this part of the room, leaves no excuse for slighted or slovenly work. Under this table may be two drawers, with compartments in one for polishing materials, chamois leather, and articles needed for scouring tin and copper; and in the other, articles for keeping the stove or range in order. Back of the table and sink, the wall should be ceiled with wood for three feet above them, and here may be put up galvanized iron hooks and nails on which to hang basting-spoons, ladles, cooking forks and spoons, the chopping-knife, cake-turner, etc. A set of drawers close at hand for salt, pepper, and spices is also convenient. There should never be bevel, beading, or molding on kitchen window or door frames; and the kitchen door, leading to the dining room, should be faced with rubber and closed with a not too strong spring. Not less than three large windows are desirable in every kitchen, which should be cheerful, pleasant, well ventilated, convenient, and clean.

"In houses of the old style [this means pre-Civil War] there was either no pantry at all, the kitchen being furnished with a dresser and shelves, or it was merely a small closet to hold the articles in less common use. In modern houses [in 1877] the pantry is next in importance to the kitchen, and it should be so arranged us to accommodate all the appliances used in cookery, as well as the china, glass-ware, cutlery, and other articles for the table, unless a dresser is used as before suggested. In arranging a plan for building, the pantry should receive careful consideration, as next in importance to the kitchen; it should be sufficiently roomy, open into both the dining-room and the kitchen, and, in order to 'save steps,' should be as convenient to the range or cooking-stove as circumstances will allow. The window should be placed so as to give light without infringing on the shelving; the shelves should be so arranged as to not obstruct the light from it; the lower ones should be two and a half feet from the floor, and two feet or more in width, and project about three inches beyond the closets and drawers below; and the part near the window, where there is no shelving, may be used for molding and preparing pastry, and such other work as may be most conveniently done here. Other shelves, or a china closet, should be provided for the china and other table furniture in every-day use. The pantry should have an abundance of drawers and closets, of which it is hardly possible to have too many--the upper closets for the nicer china and glass, and the lower ones to hold pans and other cooking utensils in less frequent use. The drawers are for table-linen and the many uses the housekeeper will find for them. If possible, the window should be on the north side, but in any case it should have blinds for shade, and a wire gauze or other screen to keep out flies. Instead of spreading shelves with paper, a neat marbled oil-cloth is better, as it is easily cleaned."

[more of the text available on Google Book Search, a wonderful resource]

What part of Ohio are you in? There's an Amish outfit in eastern Ohio that makes kitchen cabinets (they're called Mullet Cabinet and are sort of like a clearinghouse for all the local Amish families who do the work). If you're up closer to Michigan, there's another Amish outfit in southern Michigan (Branch Hill Joinery). You'd be amazed at how reasonable Amish prices are relative to the brand names. I know at least Mullet Cabinet was cheaper (!!) than nice cabinets from the big-box store, yet far better quality. And they're using historical techniques, and very good at making things look as historical as you want them to (example below--I think this kitchen is just gorgeous).

Here is a link that might be useful: Branch Hill Joinery gorgeous Amish period kitchen

ideagirl2, your posting is an excellent one--what a good setof ideas I see there on the Branch Hill website! I like the kitchen you cite--has the historic flavor without pretenses of having "always been there."

I am also impressed by the shot of the upper cabs with well-matched grain patterns. Excellent effect.

bump

Kate, welcome to old house ownership & to this forum. Liriodendron's advice is good - far, far better than your average contractor/designer whose design ideas run to big-box-store displays.

Having an 1858 Greek Revival townhouse (battered, but basically unimproved) where the original outside kitchen was torn down in 1934, we decided to put the kitchen in the former back parlor. My theory was to apply the Greek Revival theme of 'Simple yet Bold' to make the new blend in: cabinets are flat panelled inset (based on originals(?) in the basement thought to have been saved when the outside kitchen was demolished). They are built to the 11' ceiling on one wall & to about 10' on another making for very tall cabinets - but very much in scale with the room. This caused many discussions with the cabinetmaker but he's worked with me for years & knows that historic house people 'aren't normal'! I'm not sure if milk paint is appropriate but a dark, flat, not-too-perfect sheen suits the room better than anything else, IMO. As far as appliances, I think pro-style stainless is the epitomy of utilitarian & therefore is a natural for an antebellum-cum-21st century kitchen. Many here won't agree with me but I find recessed lights to be more unobtrusive than anything else; if you're in a country setting, perhaps candle lights would work but to me they look fake.

To my way of thinking, it's important to (1)not alter the original architecture, (2)keep the proper scale, & (3) have the new to blend seamlessly in with the old as much as possible. If a later owner decides he wants a house museum, he can rip your kitchen out & do what he wants - & you haven't destroyed anything.

Ho-Ho! Here's a smoking gun, so to speak, to show the beginnings of built-in cabs in 1880s. Go to the Kitchens chapter starting on p 79 in _Household Conveniences._ Lotsa good stuff here with illustrations--including dedicated baking station, toekicks, dish drainers, more. If this stuff actually began to walk into real world kitchen design before the turn of the 20th century, it's also going to be useful to show what might be done in a historical or historically inspired 19th "updated" century kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: 1884 book on Household Conveniences

Wow! Thanks to everyone for all of your responses - I am overwhelmed and am looking forward to having a chance to really sit down and really absorb all of your comments and take a look at the links provided as well.

I think what I keep coming back to is this: I want the new kitchen (and all the rooms) to feel old and also to respect this wonderful old home, but my biggest concern is making a comfortable and efficient home for our family, with four kids ages 2-8 and a puppy! We have every intention of staying in this home until we are carried out, and it really just needs to work for us.

Thanks everyone!

Wow, that is some great advice and insight. We just added a new kitchen on to our 1920's home (so on the older side, but no historic gem like you have.) We had a lot of decisions to make, I wanted the kitchen to look like it belonged but also look fresh. My mantra was anything wood - windows, cabinets, trim - needed to be historically accurate. So that meant arches where there should be arches, super chunky trim, divided light windows, etc.. But all of the metal (lighting, faucets, and hardware) I went more modern. I am happy with the combination, it seems to fit the house but still be up to date in a nice way. It also allowed me to get functional when I needed to (we went with 45" stainless sink and double faucets bc that just works for our family and our puppy :-)

Anyway, it was a helpful short cut that kept me from getting too overwhelmed with all of the decisions - good luck, that is going to be an amazing project!