The problem with people insiting on the correct pronunciation of words like patina, endive, kudos, etc. is, (as someone mentioned) that there are alternate acceptable English (meaning American English) pronunciations of these words. And merriam-webster.com even lists the 'wrong' pronunciation of these words first, signifying that they are most common. So, when people make a big deal that 'often' (for example) is properly pronounced 'ofen', I first check my dictionary and then feel free to continue doing what I've always done.

OTOH, I appreciate knowing things like the accurate way to say chipotle, where the common mispronunciation is not one of the several accepted listings in the dictionary. I appreciate knowing that its a 'moot point' and not a 'mute point'.

And my dd's name is Arianna, which has at least 3 different ways to say it, not including the ways that add extra letters or delete some letters (Rianna, Adrianna, etc.) But I pronounce it just like the Irish girl did when I first heard the name. Or, at least, my midwest American interpretation of how she said it.

sorry to chime in again but this thread got me going. I think Italian foods are so often mispronounced. For all you Italians out there like me you know what Im talking about. MAN-I-COT-TEE, RI-COTT-A, CAL-I-MAR-E, CAP-I-COLA......and the list goes on. My DH who is not Italian is always teasing me on the way I pronounce my food! Its ok, as long as it tastes good :o

"The problem with people insiting on the correct pronunciation of words like patina, endive, kudos, etc. is, (as someone mentioned) that there are alternate acceptable English (meaning American English) pronunciations of these words. And merriam-webster.com even lists the 'wrong' pronunciation of these words first, signifying that they are most common."

This is a common explanation, but I don't buy it. Acceptable to whom? The people who don't know any better.

There are alternate pronunciations for these uncommon words because most people never learned the correct pronunciation, not because people deliberately choose one over the other. I don't see the value of perpetuating misinformation or mistakes and I do see the value in educating oneself in saying a word as it was meant to be pronounced. No harm in having standards.

dd70 -
Forget the foods what about people who say.....

EYEtalian? You know, people who come from EYEtaly.

Here's another.....Halalulu. Yep, my own husband who travels for a living actually *used* to pronounce it that way and insisted he was correct. Wth and lol.

I don't know. Somehow after 4 years I thought my governor would stop calling my state Cal EEEEEEE fornia.

All I have to say is- Happy late Valentime's Day everyone!!!!

That one gets me every time!

Nonsense to the one correct language/everyone else wrong notion. My town's name derives from an English surname, in itself derived from French, but I'm guessing a good 10 out of 10 Englishmen AND Frenchmen would pronounce it wrong. Ohmygosh, unless WE've always said it wrong...?

"This is a common explanation, but I don't buy it. Acceptable to whom? The people who don't know any better."

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary. There are probably more authoritative dictionaries, but MW is sufficient for me since I don't have access to the OED. Language is a living thing, and dictionary editors sit in rooms and argue over what words are valid new words, and what pronunciations are valid and acceptable. So some pronunciations are wrong, and others are alternatives, according to a standard dictionary.

dd70, don't forget bruschetta, (brusketta, not brushetta).
The athelete wore her jewlery with style, but the vetran wasn't impressed. Three of my favorites.

Is it Bach or Bac-c-h-h, Handel or Hendel? etc. At the end of the day, it's the content that matters. I have more compassion for misspellings after talking to an intelligent, educated friend who had a learning disability and wasn't able or aware of her mistakes. She hoped people didn't look down on her because of it.

I've dabbled in so many languages over the years, I honestly sometimes can't remember how to pronounce ordinary English words I've used all my life.

"It makes me really sad for sue36Âs colleague that you all felt it appropriate to laugh at her for wanting her name said in a certain way."

You missed my point. She was mocked (not by me, btw, I was a witness to it) because she wanted her name pronounced correctly. It was because of the way she corrected people. Try to imagine Martha Stewart correcting someone's French and you'd be about there.

Many people when correcting pronunciation do it in such a way that they put down the mis-pronouncer (if there is such a word).

That said, I admit a distaste for names that do not sound at all as they are spelled. I don't get it. Why create confusion and a situation where the person is going to forever be correcting spelling and pronunciation? An acquaintance of ours named their child Ciara. See-ar-a? No Keira. Then spell it Keira, for crying out loud. If you want an usual spelling then don't get annoyed and make people feel bad when they can't pronounce it as you want it pronounced. Pick whatever name you want, but you do it at your own peril.

My name is Suzanne. Sue-zan. Not Sue-zahn. I don't need to be fancy and pretend I live in Quebec.

Many people when correcting pronunciation do it in such a way that they put down the mis-pronouncer (if there is such a word).

... Pick whatever name you want, but you do it at your own peril.

... I don't need to be fancy and pretend I live in Quebec.

So I'm confused: is it that it's okay for you to be snotty but no one else?

Just curious!

Oooh AdoptedbyGreyhounds, I was just going to mention the "bruschetta" one. My pet peeve. Also, the word that doesn't exist, "irregardless", drives me crazy when people use it.

Having said that, I still get a chuckle out of the scene in Woody Allen's "Manhattan" where he is imitating Diane Keaton's pronunciation of "Van Gough". She pronounced it "Van Goch" with the "ch" sounding like throat clearing. Woody imitated her several times sounding like a cat with a hairball, and showing his contempt for her pompousness. So, while mispronunciation can be annoying, there comes a time when we need to say, "chill out". There are more serious things to spend our time worrying about.

After seeing Merriam-Webster's entry on the word kudos, I'm not impressed. They cite several published instances where the word was used incorrectly, so M-W declares it's an okay usage now. I don't agree that frequently misusing a word establishes a precedent for its correctness, no matter what Merriam-Webster says. You'll find many English experts who argue just as hard for correct, standard usage & pronunciation (Kingsley Amis & William Safire come to mind).

The OED has a different take than does M-W :

Here is a link that might be useful: OED

Im guilty of doing this as well. Im aware of the right way but just like many of the words I spell incorrectly, we can't all be perfect :)

I named my daughter Eleni (E-lenny). I should have known what I was in for, but I thought the only problem I'd face was not being able to find her name on a pencil at Wal- Mart. Most of my family (not the Greek side) and one of my closest friends can't even pronounce it. How they get Elaine-E out of the spelling, I don't understand. But, I just chuckle inside and figure they'll get it eventually.

my uncle married an italian-american woman who referred to her family's country of origin as IT-LY. i suppose the "a" was not necessary.

and suzanne, if i ever met you i would call you as you wish. and i would certainly stay clear of suZAHn since that would obviously offend. my daughter's name is NOT pronounced in any other way than it is spelled. and rather than carry on an unnecessary debate (which i am coming very close to taking personally) about it let's just say that to be friendly if you ever met my lovely four year old you might address her by her given name. if however you chose to use an alternate pronunciation i can promise she would not think to correct you. her mother teaches her manners if not tolerance.

an italian-american woman who referred to her family's country of origin as IT-LY.

My husband's family is from the Finger Lakes area of NY. When visiting there, I heard locals refer to the town of Italy Valley as It-ly Valley. Never heard heard Italy pronounced that way before, or since.

bruschetta, good one. Im hungry.
And Joanie yes, how could I forget EYE-talian...Archie Bunker!!
OK, one more, and an ex coworker of mine was guilty of this and we used to yell at him (in a loving way).....ILLINOISE.

Kate,
I don't have a problem with someone correcting the pronunication of their name. It is the WAY they do it I have a problem with. Of course someone has the right to be called what they want to be called! I'm just pointing out that some people with unusual pronunciations get all twisted up when people mess up their name. Parents are the worst. They pick a name that is not at all phonetic (I'm not talking about Alexandra, I mean Ciara for Keira) and then are *shocked* and *offended* when they have to correct people all the time.

I do think is is improper to correct someone's pronunciation of patina, endive, etc. (unless it is a parent correcting a child, of course).

My name is never mispronounced, it's too easy. But if I chose to go by the French pronunciation, I shouldn't act all shocked and self righteous when people use the "English" pronunciation.

You don't have to be concerned I'm taking this personally! LOL! I just wanted to clarify.

Slightly OT - what's with "gone missing"? "My favorite pen has gone missing" or "The suspect has gone missing" ... or some such. The television news and newspapers are equally guilty of using this phrase. Someone please tell me if this is considered correct grammar. The pen has been lost or the person is missing. But GONE missing???? Yuk!

My personal pet peeve on the prononciation front is and "realtor." It's real--tor, not real-uh-tor. I'm amazed at how many educated people say that.

Well, I am a Realtor, and this one bugs me, too. I can't tell you how many times I've submitted an offer with an accompanying earnest money check, and when I look on the check I find it's made payable to "ABC Reality Company". Real-i-ty.

My DH subscribes to a "word of the day" email, and one of the words that came a while back was epenthesis, which is basically the insertion of a sound or a letter into a word. You see it a lot, and it has something to do with the difficulty of combining two difficult letter/syllable pairings. Supposably (grin) adding a letter or sound makes the pronunciation easier for some people.

Ath a lete
Real a tor
Jewl a ry

My biggest grammar peeve has to be the blatant disregard for "to be". The house needs painted. The car needs washed. I literally twitch when I hear that.

Reno, I admit I do that- say "needs washed" leaving off the "to be." I got it from my mom who grew up in Pittsburgh. I have been told by more than one person that it is a common of those from that city.

I do try to correct myself, but I don't always notice.

i've never heard of "needs painted" or "needs washed."
but is it still okay if the house needs painting or the car washing?

I was once in a restaurant and ordered brus-ketta. The waiter CORRECTED ME (bru-shetta--wrong). Then, later, when our soup didn't come, he said (snottily, again) we hadn't ordered any.

That was the only and only time I have ever stiffed a waiter for a tip.

On the names thing...well, all I have to say is, if you grew up in Georgia and then moved to Boston, you'd throw up your hands and just let it all go...Once I gave my name and address over the phone when requesting info on something, and dang if the letter didn't come a couple days later addressed to "Harley." As in davidson. And then there are my lovely children, Susanner and Cahtah!

English is a funny language--it has absorbed a lot of influences and will continue to do so! I have to say though that I do draw the line at their/there/they're, its/it's, and apostrophes on random plural words. No, I'm not going to correct anyone. I have manners. But I am allowed to let it bug the @#$% out of me and to go medieval on my kids if they make those mistakes! (often because they are just following the examples of their teachers.)

BTW I think St. John is a wonderful name. There is a funny scene in some movie--Four Weddings and a FUneral maybe? where the groom repeatedly corrects the (British) priest on the pronunciation of his name, St. John.

Holly

This has been a great stream, and I've enjoyed it very much.

Holly's post reminds me of a good waiter/Italian words story.

Years ago when my son was still in college, we visited and took him to the restaurant of his choice: Olive Garden. Now, this Italian girl had never eaten there before -- but I went with good spirits, ready to enjoy the evening. When I gave the waiter my order, I asked him to make my pasta al dente. He wrote it down. And returned ten minutes to tell me, apologetically, that the chef said they didn't have any al dente.

oh oofasis, ROFLMFO!!!

"Ciara" being pronounced "Keira" is actually reasonable. It seems like an Irish spelling, similar to the boy's name "Ciaran," which is pronounced "Keirin."

"Seamus" is another, more recognizable example of the same idea. It's pronouned "shay-mus" but very few people would actually spell the name the way that it sounds.

How about "could care less". Or "butt-naked". Or "escape goat". Or "got his dandruff up". Or "miss-CHEE-vee-us". How about all those sentence fragments?

mandogirl -- I was thinking the same thing about Celtic names (Gaelic and Welsh). My twenty-one month-old son is named Ruffin (an old family name on my side) and it's Welsh in origin, although the Welsh spell it Ruthven. "thv" makes the "ff" sound in Welsh. Well, for generations we've been spelling it Ruffin plus there was no way I was going to give my son a name with "ruth" in it!

And I remember watching Conan O'Brien explain that when he and his wife chose to name their daughter Neve they spelt it that way, not the "proper" Irish way of Niamh (although he made a joke out of it spelling it something like "ropqstu") because he wanted people to be able to pronounce it.

I understand it can be frustrating (to not know how to pronounce someone's name), but I guess I just find it really interesting to learn all the variations. I love names!

hollylh, thank you for saying you like the name St. John. I know the scene (in Four Weddings) to which you're referring, although I'd never noticed it until after I had my own St. John. Take about personal myopia! I got the name when a junior in high school taking a Women in Literature course. Mrs. Rose, our teacher, explained to us as we were reading Jane Eyre that the character St. John Rivers is pronounced "Sinjin," even though it looks like "saint john." Let's just say high school was a looooong time ago, but that name lived in my heart from that day forth. I was just lucky to have a partner who liked the name too!

And I want to add my bruschetta story: we were eating at a cheap Italian restau in Toronto where the (Canadian) waiter sniggered at my Japanese husband's pronunciation of bruschetta. I happen to think my husband is pretty freakin' awesome, having made a really successful life for himself (and us, too) in a foreign country in his nonnative tongue. We were there with another couple and I not only refused to contribute to the tip, I spoke with both the waiter and manager to express my displeasure, adding that we'd never return to that restau. (little did they know we were just visiting)

I wrote it earlier but I think it bears repeating, it is just plain mean to laugh at people. Hmph.

Oh dear. I posted something last night and all my capital (or is it capitol?) letters in the title were somehow changed to lower case. I hope the grammar (grammor? grammer?) police donÂt fine me.

I have an Alexandra and I call her AlexANNdra while her dad (my ex) calls her AlexAHNdra. Her nickname is Ali which drives my current husband nuts, he thinks it should be spelled Ally or better yet call her Alex. We can't even agree our own house. lol

I can't believe I didn't proof that before submitting lol.

hollylh: ah yes! bernard st. john delaney was his name.

backinthesaddle: i apparently have an aversion to the shift key. or maybe i'm just lazy! either way, i can type faster without bothering with it. please don't anyone hold it against me!

My pet peeve is hone/home. You "home in" (focus) on a target. You hone your skills. You don't hone in on anything.

My pet peeve is the sentence "Mom, can you make me a sandwich?" to which I *always* reply while swirling my imaginary wand "Ding, YOU are a sandwich!"

What would be the proper way to ask for a sandwich? " Mom, will you prepare a sandwich for me to eat?"????? Never thought about it before.

One of my many peeves is when people leave the "k" out of the word breakfast. Oh, and I sleep on a pallow after I drink my melk. :)

"Mom, can you make a sandwich for me?" :-) A "please" at the end allllllllways helps, too!

Interesting thread.
Here is my word peeve - men getting their PROSTRATE checked - huh? I hear that one all the time.

Regarding Leonardo - his surname could have been Da Vinci.
My surname also literally means "from Dutch city" but it really is our last name.
Lots of names with a Dutch origin begin with 'Van' -it must be the same for Italian 'Da' and other nationalities too.

Sue36, I'm also a Suzanne (sooz-ANN). Do you ever get called Susan (SOOZ-un)? I get that all the time. It's usually by a man, almost never a woman. I guess some people register both spellings as the same name. I only correct them if it matters, though, like if it's being typed incorrectly into a computer.

OK, I've been holding back because once I start I might never stop.
"Between you and I"

Lie/lay

Who/whom

infer/imply (even heard this mistake by a fancy lawyer during the OJ trial)

Disinterested/uninterested - This one was dormant for many years, but I think all the "between you and I" people started feeling less elegant now that everyone is saying "between you and I" so they've started saying disinterested when they mean uninterested.

Oh pickles, now I HAVE to tell this one.

My friend said her Dad was going in for a procedure-- a "colonostomy"...... my goodness. I then explained what a colonoscopy is and what a colostomy (bag) is.

Gosh, I'm just a lurker on this forum but I've got to chime in on this conversation!

My pet peeve is the misuse of literally. Literally means that something actually, truly, in fact occurred. So people saying things like "I was so angry my head literally exploded" always makes me wonder 1) who had to clean up that unfortunate mess and 2) how the speaker managed to either patch that shattered head together or procure a new one that looks completely normal.

I'm a Southerner myself and I know people who put their clothes in a chester drawers. They try to avoid running over porky-pines. And they certainly dread nuc-uh-lar warfare (personally I've always cynically assumed Bush is attempting to talk Texan when he uses that phrase).

And while I"m here the 'needs washed/painted' phrasing grates on me like no other mis-locution. It gives me the instant impression of someone too lazy to complete a sentence at best or totally ignorant of how to speak correct English at worst.

In a meeting last week, my boss announced that we needed "keep the inertia going". :-O

This seemed especially odd given that he has an advanced degree in physics!

ksfaustin, Your boss is showing off his superior knowledge of physics and scientific terms. The law of inertia is something about a body at rest remaining at rest and a body in motion remaining in motion (unless something intereferes to alter either, like gravity). So he's saying -- funny guy -- keep working as hard as you have been.

"Do you ever get called Susan (SOOZ-un)?"

Not too often. Usually by older men, oddly enough. I live in a part of the country with a lot of French Canadians, so Suzanne is just as common as Susan. I do get called Ann sometimes, especially on the phone. Either I'm mumbling or they aren't listening very clearly!

Hehehe.. so glad someone mentioned the realAtor vs. realtor. That drives me batty! The other one is your vs. you're for "you are".

My personal pet peeves:

"There was two things that bothered her."
"There was a elephant in the window."
Regional peeves: "We was fixin' to go to Wal-Mart."

The realAtor bothers me as well.

I live in the state of Washington. It amazes me how many people seem to think there is an "R" in the name of our state. It's Washington -- NOT Warshington. John McCain please take note!

And then there's the misuse of ['s] for plurals when only [s] is required: sink's, the Johnson's, sofa's instead of (correctly) sinks, the Johnsons, sofas. This one drives my son nuts.

Runninginplace - the "literally" one drives me crazy too. And, 5 minutes before I read your post, I had JUST heard a friend say: "Last night the show 'Lost' was so intense, I was literally glued to the TV." Huh???

Also, what about when "jive" and "jibe" are used interchangeably? Aack. It's so annoying. Whenever I hear someone say "jive" when they should say "jibe", the Bee Gees' song "Jive Talking" literally sounds in my head.