Who is doing the work? Is there a permit issued? If there is a permit and it's not to code, it's a non issue and will have to come out. I'd be furious with said designer. Max step height here is 7.5". From the picture, I'd make them tear it out and recreate the curve stepped back a MINIMUM of 10" so that you have one step up to the finished porch all along that leading edge and possibly that strip to the left if you think anyone will ever try to access from that direction. If there will be plants there, you might be ok from that side. Your designer is nuts if he/she thinks lighting is the solution - sorry. I understand the goal is to match the existing porch height but safety comes first and if your finished, enlarged porch has to be a bit smaller to accommodate a needed step, that's priority.

I'm totally in agreement with dim2000. Max. step height here is 8". I'd make them do it over before the cement is poured. I'd also fire the designer who is arguing with you over what is appropriate and what you really want! Someone will break a leg or at the least get a bad sprain by not realizing the step is so far down when they go to step off it. It's an accident waiting to happen. Good luck!

Out it comes.

This may be flagged by your insurance company as a hazard. Insurance companies do exterior surveys on properties often without the homeowners knowledge.

Even if it wasn't against code or a possible insurance hazard why have something that may not be safe?

We have a step in front with our new wood deck and I think it measures at 9 inches. It is not the kids, but the older folks that really struggle with it. We are trying to figure out some sort of railing that will not spoil the look before someone takes a spill. It makes me nervous every time one of our parents visit. If I could go back and change it at the stage you are at, I would. I'd also blame your designer. That's why you hire someone instead of doing it yourself (I did ours myself and have no one else to blame).

I agree with all these concerns, and this is your moment to fix it. The wall looks badly built, and the shape is awkward, even if safety and correctness weren't the issue.

I know it's hard to face, but if it were me, I'd call the inspector, fire the contractor and the designer, withhold the payment, and start over. There is no relationship value that is worth ruining your house.

yep, I'm in agreement. Don't let it go.

In a house (2 houses ago) the homeowner who thought he was handy, put in steps to the covered patio. One was probably about 11", and the other, "normal" height. Too many people fell, tripped up them. Just one person is "too many" when talking injuries.

(of course this was the same clown who took out a support post in the basement so the room would be wide open...)

We can see that the extension is going to be the same height as the existing porch. Was the paver area there before or has it been added as part of this project?

I ask, as I'm wondering what the step down was before the extension project? Do you have before pics?

A friend installed steps in my multilevel back yard, replacing the unattractive concrete block ones there before. He used granite curbing scraps, as he works for a large company which does road construction as well as site work.

Laid on their sides, they are about 5" high. and about a foot wide. I also have two of them behind my garage as steps and one in front of my shed. Could a wide piece of stone such as granite be laid so that it divides the height of the new wall in half, and forms a shallow step between the wall and the paver area?

Here is a link that might be useful: Images of granite steps in landscaping

That's way beyond code and a liability hazard, not to mention totally dangerous. I am worried about broken ankles and broken noses.

Yikes! As one who can manage to trip over flat carpeting, I'd say it's definitely time for a do-over. Don't settle for a half-arsed job, which this clearly is.

That sure looks sloppy. I was suprised to hear you had hired a designer. Wow. It would not pass code here. They do not appear to be educated.

Was there a railing on the porch before?

thanks everyone for your input. The designer is coming over shortly to discuss this with us. The contractor is now trying to shave off some of the height from the concrete form, and we are going to see how the porch looks with a slope. I am fairly convinced we are going to need a step but we are trying to work a solution before tearing this all out.

my3dogs, thanks for the images of the granite steps - i like those and they could be an option. Before the form was there, this was a flower bed, and there was a rail on the porch that we tore down. It was a tiny, narrow porch. The only access to the porch was from the main entrance, which has a 7 inch step.

debrak, you raise a good point about insurance issues. From the street, this thing looks like a hazard so I'm upset that the designer/landscape architect did not see this issue and proceeded to pour a form that was approaching a 10-11 inch step. I went out and measured the stones this morning, and some of them are an inch and a half thick. Did they really not recognize this safety issue? If this is not corrected immediately, we are going to fire them and bring in another hardscaper. I'm quickly losing confidence in their abilities.

brownysmom, the wall is actually just the support form for the stone that goes on top of it, so the shape is just a rough form and will be smoothed out with concrete and stone over top. But I agree - right now it looks sloppy and I am not at all impressed with their handiwork.

Hoping this guy can make this right and safe for everyone -- I'll keep you all posted. Thanks.

This post was edited by pipdog on Wed, May 1, 13 at 0:00

I am confused. The new porch is being tied into the existing porch? What options did they have unless the old porch was being torn out? Maybe I don't get something but it seems that if the old porch is staying and you are adding a new surface layer that the designer had no choice in what the height of the new part would be.

Does the old need resurfaced? Could it somehow just be stained to tie into the new material? I agree that it looks like a huge step but how is the height handled now?

It looks to me that the grade drops a bit moving away from the old porch so there may not have been a height issue before. Or there may have been shrubs blocking it and the only opening to step up onto it being closer to the front door and properly sized at that point. If I remember right, your front door is to the right and close to a corner. I'm guessing the grade falls away to the bottom left of the photo and the high point of the front is toward the corner where the door and porch entry point are.

I posted briefly on the other forum, but the more I look at your pic the more problems I see. What is under that sand base, and are they going to pack it and add reinforcement before pouring on top of it? If your concrete base is not done correctly and it begins to settle and crack, then all that is going to transfer to your stone work.

Will a slope work on the porch? No. A slight slope that allows for drainage is one thing, but a slope to correct height is another. Imagine trying to walk up it, and the feel of going downhill as you walk to the curb will be an additional hazard.
Make them do it right or you'll hate it forever........and you'll spend more money in the near future.

I think you can either inset a shallow step down area on top or and a shallow step on bottom . Using the stone that is being used on top. I would make it a lower step only about 4 inchs high. Maybe curved to look like a design feature. My daughters is back patio is done like that and it gives a designated step down area. Hers is only about 12 high and I always thought it was done to direct traffic coming off the patio but now I am thinking it was for the very reasons your stating.

Shallow steps are hazardous and not to Code. Steps need to be uniform in height and depth. They also need to be sized correctly for usage and there are rules for this.

Even if you are free to do as you please in your locale, it's best to follow Code recommendations. They have been developed for safety reasons.

So things like this don't happen, creating stepping errors and falls.

We just met with him. He is going to add a riser about 5 inches high to the step up. It will run along the front of the porch to the front step up to the front door. There will be lighting on the step.

annz, thanks for the point. They have packed the sand but I am not sure they are going to use reinforcement. Do you think we need rebar or something else to reinforce the sand bed?

rnmomof2, we are tying in an extension of the new porch to the old, but as the designer we feel like he had a duty to inform us that the step would exceed 7-8 inches (code) and he didn't do that.

dlm, you are exactly right about the slope. There is a slight grade moving from the front door (on the right side) to the left. From the front porch step up to the front door area, there is already a 7 inch step. The plants used to block the entrance to the rest of the patio, so you didn't really notice the slope.

By shallow I didn,t mean the width of the step but the height of the step. It sound like thats what he plans on doing.

I understand what you meant. That's just the picture that came up, showing the types of problems that can happen and height and depth considerations.

Sounds like the steps will have different riser heights, which creates stepping errors. Steps should be uniform in height and depth. We expect the same riser height and tread depth as we move through and automatically reach for them.

Maybe where that saying "that last step is a doozy" comes from.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Thu, Apr 11, 13 at 20:55

There are several questions to ask. Will the stone be set in the sand or will there be concrete poured on top and then the stone set in mortar? Will the stone overlap the seam between old and new concrete? Concrete slabs are not just poured up against each other since they will separate. Usually, holes are drilled into the old concrete, rebar is placed in the holes and secured with the ends extending out into the newly poured concrete. If they lay portions of stone over a non-reinforced seam, any movement and separation will damage the layer of stone on top.

Of all the jobs we've had done, it's was never recommended to pour on top of sand since it shifts and can wash out. Crushed rock is the standard base. Also, how deep are they pouring the concrete slab (if that's what they're doing).........typical depth is 4".

There is a concrete mix available that is reinforced with fibers so, depending on the proposed use of the slab, rebar/mesh is not always required.

Also, make sure they allow for the thickness of mortar in their calculations.

This post was edited by annz on Thu, Apr 11, 13 at 14:00

thanks to everyone for your input and help. A step was added and it looks much better and is safer. The designer was willing to work with us to make it right. The project is almost finished - i'll post reveal pics soon.