"Neither Broker nor Brokerage Firm shall be responsible for maintenance of the Property nor shall they be liable for damage of any kind occurring to the Property, unless such damage shall be caused by their negligence or intentional misconduct."

The above is what our contract says, and I have collected money from an agent where his buyers kid broke a chair.
Agents who can not control their buyers when showing, and the buyers cause damage, are in my book negligent.

Just like on my own home last week, the agent did not lock up the front door of the house, if anything had been stolen, who do you think I would go after?

"Just like on my own home last week, the agent did not lock up the front door of the house, if anything had been stolen, who do you think I would go after? "

The thieves??

I don't think you can compare the realtor not checking the house and leaving doors open to the homeowner being an idiot and leaving jewelry in plain site. The realtor controls the door situation but does not control the jewelry sitation. The realtor can verify doors are closed before they leave.

Maybe as part of the commission they demand they should take a little time to create a check list for themselves before they leave the house (close fridge, lock doors, check thermostats, etc.). Maybe they shouldn't leave prospective buyers unattended.

"The thieves??"
The police will take care of that, I wont.

I don't understand people here calling the home owner negligent and talking about leaving jewelry or medicine in the open or unlocked, when that obviously was not the case here.

Well, we have two different Realtor points of view between sylviatexas & berniek.

I agree with berniek. The Realtor should be able to control their client insofar as discouraging or reporting breakage, theft etc. I also think a Realtor should leave the house as they found it, including locking the door. If an agent accompanies a client to a house they should remain with their client at all times (bathroom breaks are impossible and why it is always suggested people remove their meds). The Realtor doesn't have to stand on top of their client, across the room is fine. A line of sight will deter a lot of transgressions.

I was talking about Realtors being responsible for the actions of other people.

We do leave the house "as we find it" as much as possible.

but we literally cannot check the furnace door & the thermostat & every window & run through the house before letting the clients inside to be sure there are no small valuables left within reach of curious or pilfering fingers.

In the case of the broken chair, I think you had a very nice Realtor who wanted to keep your listing.
(Did she eventually sell the house?)

Although I don't know the details (maybe the kid sat in the chair & it collapsed?), I *think* I'd have told the buyers that they had to pay for the chair if they didn't want the homeowner to report them to the police for vandalism.

"The furnace door was not properly shut so, presumably, someone opened it. I think you need to have a discussion with the realtor about properly watching people during a showing. A furnace should not be touched. Period."

Guess you do not really want to make a sale then.
Here is a clue for you.

Checking the furnace filters often reveals the owner has NOT changed them, lending a very nice bit of information about the maintenance level for the house.

but we literally cannot check the furnace door & the thermostat & every window & run through the house before letting the clients inside

It seems to me that the showing agent should be standing there when the furnace door is being opened, an appliance turned on, or any window opened.

Practice diligence:
. . . put notes on the mechanical things, maybe tape over the thermostat . . .

Is this something you routinely recommend to your clients? My house is full of mechanicals. I'm envisioning a hundred post-it notes spread about the house, one on every window and door, the oven, dishwasher, refrigerator, furnace, aircleaner, sump pump, electrical overload protector. It is just impossible to know what a careless potential buyer is going to get into.

. . . & put a note on the front door that says something like, "parents please watch your children".

Yeh, that will make all the difference in the world. Shouldn't those words be coming from the mouth of the showing agent?

The Realtor was very sorry and said she would pay - I told here we were split the cost and we both learned a lesson.

It never occurred to her that the client would actually open the furnace for a look see. This client was a pain in the butt in the first place. Always complaining about this and that because it was not perfect. Then saying she would have an offer the next day and then vanishing.

The house is 25K under assesed value and she had so many tiny complaints! (doorbell was not loud enough - chipmunk holes in yard - IT'S ON A NATURE PRESERVE!!!).

Realtor said she would be more observant

No I wouldn't put a sticky on every window.

People don't often actually open windows to see outside or to check the operation of the window, but sometimes someone will unlock a window for easier access later.

..........
..........

Some people enter their house through the garage after they put the car away, & they leave the door from the kitchen to the garage unlocked because they don't have a key.

If I lock it, then I've just locked the owner out of his own house.

I just know this.

so I ask the owners to put tape over that lock.

Grinder12000,

Yes, unfortunately, it's one of the costs you must bear. Having sold two homes - front doors will be left open, items moved, furnaces opened, windows left ajar, phone knocked off hook, lights left on, et cetera. This is normal. Much worse can happen.

Yes, it is frustrating. You could consider limiting which realtors show the home without the you or your realtor being present. This would might increase your comfort level.

Some thoughts: perhaps a short term lease to ensure house is occupied (community ordinances permitting) so that any oops are discovered promptly or a house sitter, or even a home warranty (or appliance warranties).

Best wishes for a quick sale.

"People don't often actually open windows to see outside or to check the operation of the window, but sometimes someone will unlock a window for easier access later."

There are plenty of people that do.
If I am going to put in an offer, everything that I can easily check will be checked.
Every window will be opened (and the trim around the second floor ones checked from the window), every faucet, every toilet will be flushed, turn on the bathroom and kitchen sinks with the shower also running, flush toilets with shower running, check every outside faucet.
If the weather is temperate both AC and heat checked, if it is too cold to operate the AC it will be VERY carefully examined.
Bathroom vent fans opened to check for crud buldup and operation.
Everything an inspector would look at before I make an offer.

It is no wonder so many buyers are coming up with laundry lists of 'repairs'.
Between sellers getting bent about buyers looking carefully and the ignorance of the buyers to even know what to look for another step has been added to the process.

A financing contingency used to be the 'out' buyers used (omit spouse salary from mortgage application or buy a new car).
Now supposed 'defects' are found and the contract canceled.

You really need a good neighbor when selling a vacant house. I moved out of state and couldn't keep an eye on things.
My neighbor volunteered to help out. He found things like lights were left on, doors not shut properly, mud stain left on the carpet. Also, he kept driveway and sidewalk shoveled.

I would not have gotten thru this without his help.

My realtor said he would watch out for me beause he knew my sutuation. What a big fat liar!

brickeyee said:
"If I am going to put in an offer, everything that I can easily check will be checked."

If you were my buyer, you'd have 2 options. You can leave the house NOW on your own free will, or I will drag you out of the house before you do any damage. You have NO right, and are NOT qualified to perform an inspection during a viewing of a house!
As a buyers agent you are placing me in a position of liability, which I'm not willing to accept.
Make a written offer and perform YOUR inspection during the contractually designated timeframe, with a professional home inspector, your uncle or by yourself, as you see fit.

"You have NO right, and are NOT qualified to perform an inspection during a viewing of a house!
As a buyers agent you are placing me in a position of liability, which I'm not willing to accept.
Make a written offer and perform YOUR inspection during the contractually designated timeframe, with a professional home inspector, your uncle or by yourself, as you see fit."

I will try to be polite here, but you are so far off base it is not even funny.
I have am a PE, PhD, freon license, etc.

You are going to deny a purchaser the right to inspect a property BEFORE they actually make an offer?
What are you hiding?
What is the seller hiding?

I normally purchase with NO contingencies.
No inspection, no financing, no appraisal. NONE.

You had better learn quickly that not all buyers are stupid, and some of them know what they are doing.

I would have fired you at the first peep about inspecting the property.

Berniek why in the world would you deny someone the right to open windows (that aren't painted shut), turning on faucets, flushing toilets, etc? Dismantling anything in the house I can see stopping, but basic operations that SHOULD be functioning? What did you "allow" folks to do to check mechanical operations prior to the HI craze?

"Berniek why in the world would you deny someone the right to open windows (that aren't painted shut), turning on faucets, flushing toilets, etc?"

All I can say is, not while you are working with me. You better find yourself another agent.
What you are describing is part of an inspection, not pre-viewing a home.

& this is all done before the seller has agreed to a price or terms, before there's an executed contract, before the seller knows if you're a sane, sober, realistic buyer or a tire-kicker?

before you have permission to inspect the structure & systems?

In the absence of an executed contract, chances are the seller hasn't authorized an "inspection".

(Put yourself in the seller's position:
you come home & discover that someone has pried off the bathroom vent covers & opened windows & messed with the air conditioning & heating *without your permission*).

sylviatexas: "this is all done before the seller has agreed to a price or terms, before there's an executed contract, before the seller knows if you're a sane, sober, realistic buyer or a tire-kicker?
before you have permission to inspect the structure & systems?
In the absence of an executed contract, chances are the seller hasn't authorized an "inspection"."

Agreed. IMO...if a buyer wishes to inspect the home..then make an offer. Once accepted, inspect away.

At least if damage does occur during the course of an authorized professional inspection...the seller has recourse with the HI. If any buyer who happens to view the home is allowed to operate appliances, turn on water, pry things apart...how is the seller protected in the event of damage?

IMO, any REA who would even permit such activity is not playing with a full deck.

"I will try to be polite here, but you are so far off base it is not even funny.
I have am a PE, PhD, freon license, etc."

With all those credentials you should know better, but with a law degree you might sing a different tune.

Brickeye has shown his expertise on here many times. I wouldn't be worried about Brickeye personally. The issue is that there are a lot of people that think they know what they are doing, but they really don't. I have a friend like this, an "expert" at everything. I can absolutely see him messing about with HVAC, etc., and causing damage. I have to tell him to put his hands in his pockets when he is at out house, he wants to mess with everything.

I would hope the broker that lets someone do an inspection during a viewing knows the potential buyer very well. I don't have an issue with flushing toilets, looking at things, etc. But I do think prying things off (Brickeye never said that) and operating things the seller wouldn't expect to be operated at this stage (running washer and dryer, running dishwasher, anything affecting HVAC) is going to far, IMO. But I would think the broker could easily get this precleared with the seller ("I have an RE investor who is a PE who wants to do an inspection while he looks, is that ok"), especially in this market.

Personally, I consider opening windows and running sinks, toilets and showers fair game even during a viewing.

"Personally, I consider opening windows and running sinks, toilets and showers fair game even during a viewing."

What is that supposed to accomplish? How many flushes will it take to satisfy you that it drains? Why not take a shower while you are at it? What will you do when the window is painted shut, break the paint seal until it opens? Or are you going make a lowball offer because you don't like how it drains and the windows are painted shut?

I hope you guys wise up before you cause a problem that will cost you. Your advice for the general public is wrong and not based on RE industry practices.

I would definitely flush toilets, and run sinks and showers on a house that we wanted to place an offer on. In our last home we would lose water pressure if more than one sink was on, a toilet flushed, etc. It turned out that we had to put a new water main in to the tune of $3000. I would also test windows (assuming it wasn't -7 out!) to make sure they operate properly. Windows are very expensive and messy to replace. Both of these things would affect how much we offered on a house.
No, I wouldn't mess around with mechanicals and appliances, but certainly take a good look at them (without opening mechanicals up or really even touching them- but I would think it would be ok to look inside a dishwasher or refrigerator)
I know that an HI is supposed to catch things like water pressure and if windows work, but our last HI didn't, and he was really good in all of the other areas like a sil plate that needed replacing that two other inspectors missed. (inspectors for other buyers that didn't work out)
I am not looking for these things in order to low ball someone. I just want to make an informed decision on a home .
The people that bought our last house spent almost two hours there on their third and final visit and checked everything out. We had no problem with it, we wanted them to be happy with the house.
And yes, painted shut windows would probably cause me to lower an offer, or more likely not offer at all. If people have painted their windows shut then I would assume they have not taken very good care of the house.

"I have am a PE, PhD, freon license, etc."

No offense to the poster of that comment,but that (having a PHD, a MD,a PE,a MFA,MBA, etc listed as "One of the ten ways to instantly lose an arguement on the internet" comedy rountines (can't remember who does it)
others include talking about your dead XXXX, having a fatal illness,referring when you fought in X war, etc.

It's a pretty funny routine about how everyone's well educated, fought in the military, etc, on the web.

"prying things off (Brickeye never said that)"

"Bathroom vent fans opened to check for crud buldup and operation"

The cover would have to be pried open.

"...How many flushes will it take to satisfy you that it drains?..."

Flushing the toilet while running the sink or shower can show if there is an issue with water pressure, which can be caused by a lot of things.

"What will you do when the window is painted shut, break the paint seal until it opens?"

Opening the windows shows you if they are painted shut (which shows poor maintenance) and if the windows don't open easily (why force them, they either open easily, which is good, or don't which is bad) it might show the house settled or they weren't installed level and plumb. Personally, if it didn't easily open I wouldn't force it.

"Or are you going make a lowball offer because you don't like how it drains and the windows are painted shut?"

Not necessarily lowball, but lower than I would if the house were properly maintained. Maybe the house DESERVES a lowball offer.

"Flushing the toilet while running the sink or shower can show if there is an issue with water pressure, which can be caused by a lot of things."

I give up, the suspense is killing me.

Well, for one, as someone above posted, "It turned out that we had to put a new water main in to the tune of $3000." Poor water pressure was a symptom. We've had bad water pressure caused by issues with the water filtration system (which cost $2500 to repair). It could also be caused by a bad pressure tank. There can be issues with undersized water supply lines (when there are multiple shower heads, body sprays, etc.) as well as improper sizing of valves. There can be blockages in supply lines (minerals, rust). For people on public water, low pressure can indicate an issue with the town supply lines (too many homes off undersized lines).

That's off the top of my ahead. Is that enough. I am sure you could find more on Google.

I don't know what magical things you think a home inspector does. Many builders or others with construction experience can do the same things.

The point in this issue for me is that the showing is just a showing and not the time for inspecting the mechanicals. If I have back-to-back showings (oh for day when that was common!) and I have carefully cleaned and dried my shower stall, I don't want potential buyer #1 turning on the water to see the spray.

OK, you have flushed the toilet or turned on the water and you see that the pressure is low. It may be a major repair, a minor repair, or unfixable. Until you know more, you won't know the significance nor how to make your bid on the house.

I don't know what magical things you think a home inspector does. Many builders or others with construction experience can do the same things.

I imagine that's the background of most home inspectors. However, most of us are not in the position where we can just grab a builder and have them inspect a home we want to buy.

The home I sold had the crappiest windows in the history of home construction- the glass was weak and loose, the frames were falling apart, and half of them would not stay open. I had a window guy come over prior to listing to get them as up to speed as possible, and even he said "Oh no... not 'xxx' brand windows."

As a consequesce, windows and doors were of great importance in our new home, and you bet they were opened and closed during the showing. I would never have considered a home with poorly operational windows, and I am not going to make an offer/hire an inspector simply to find out.

I don't consider this any more intrusive or impertinent than opening and closing closet doors, and we have no issue with folks doing that. Kitchen cabinets, bathroom closets- they all hold personal items that have to be left in an inhabited home. I don't see the fuss about opening and closing a window. That's what windows are- openings, and they need to be 100% functional. I want to see them work and I want to be able to pass/fail a house on the first showing, too.

"Bathroom vent fans opened to check for crud buldup and operation"

The cover would have to be pried open.

If you're having to pry open a bathroom vent fan to look, I'd be more than slightly worried about maintenance (or lack thereof) issues. I've never seen a non painted over bath fan that needed prying or took more than half a second to unclip it. Like ceiling fans, bathroom vent fans get dusty. Unlike ceiling fans, if you don't dust them, it can eventually wreck the fan which at the very best would require a new one, at the very worst, lead to all sorts of mold/mildew and water damage.

After my "learning experience" with this house, I will NEVER again place a bid on a house without testing all windows (and yes, I will be sure to note every painted shut window, nailed shut window, broken sash cord and painted sash pulley), checking water pressure and drainage issues, looking in any ducting vents and looking in the furnace and (if there is one) the humidifier.

I'm not going to waste my time, the realtors time, the homeowners time and an inspectors time (and cost) to find out things that were easily viewable before a contract was in.

ultraviolet: "After my "learning experience" with this house, I will NEVER again place a bid on a house without testing all windows (and yes, I will be sure to note every painted shut window, nailed shut window, broken sash cord and painted sash pulley), checking water pressure and drainage issues, looking in any ducting vents and looking in the furnace and (if there is one) the humidifier."

Do you obtain the sellers permission to perform your "inspection"?

If so, when you you operate something, and if it happens to malfunction and/or break as you do so, do you contact a professional to come and perform an emergency repair..wait for them to arrive..and foot the bill?

If so, exactly how do you work that out beforehand with the seller...who gets to choose the repair person?

That said, if your answer is no, any REA who has allowed you to do this, absent the sellers knowledge and permission, is either desperate for a deal..or nuts...to put it mildly.

"I've never seen a non painted over bath fan that needed prying or took more than half a second to unclip it."

You haven't seen mine - I have built-in heat lamps in the exhaust fans (more accruately, I have built-in fans in the heat lamps) in both of my bathrooms.

" I'm not going to waste my time, the realtors time, the homeowners time and an inspectors time (and cost) to find out things that were easily viewable before a contract was in."

Do you climb up on the roof while you're at it?

call it unclipping if you want;
what're you going to do if you break it?

& if you do climb onto the roof or into the attic, & you fall through, what then?

you think the seller will be apologetic & turn in a medical claim to their insurance office?

or call the cops on you for trespassing?

Whether you do it yourself or have a licensed person do it or get your brother-in-law the electrician to do it, you have to have the owner's permission to inspect a property, for your protection as well as the owner's.

& should you decide, after doing your unauthorized "inspection", to write an offer, you likely have just shot yourself in the foot:

That seller will have formed a negative impression of your reasonableness & is likely to be way less agreeable when it comes to contract negotiation.

& really, you cannot have it both ways-

Realtors should control their clients (micro-managing beyond what any human being reasonably can) if you're the seller,

& Realtors should let their clients do any darned thing they want in someone else's house if you're the "buyer".

Wow, we went from flushing toilets to climbing on roofs... talk about extrapolating.

As far as attics - in my area of NYS most attics are walk ups with floors and 8' ceilings. You can bet people do walk up there. It is the same as walking on the first floor, basement, second floor, etc.

Obviously there is not going to be a meeting of the minds on this issue. As a buyer (and as a seller) I would expect people to check to see if the toilets flushed, the faucets worked, the windows opened. To Realtors and Inspectors it seems that the liability of flushing a toilet or turning on a faucet is so great that the average buyer cannot perform this function and must have a qualified Home Inspector do it for them.

Heaven help the real estate market.

"Obviously there is not going to be a meeting of the minds on this issue. As a buyer (and as a seller) I would expect people to check to see if the toilets flushed, the faucets worked, the windows opened. To Realtors and Inspectors it seems that the liability of flushing a toilet or turning on a faucet is so great that the average buyer cannot perform this function and must have a qualified Home Inspector do it for them."

Talking about extrapolating, inspecting a property without the owners permission is illegal. You missed the essential point!

Besides:

"Poor water pressure was a symptom. We've had bad water pressure caused by issues with the water filtration system (which cost $2500 to repair). It could also be caused by a bad pressure tank. There can be issues with undersized water supply lines (when there are multiple shower heads, body sprays, etc.) as well as improper sizing of valves. There can be blockages in supply lines (minerals, rust). For people on public water, low pressure can indicate an issue with the town supply lines (too many homes off undersized lines)."

And you can tell the difference between 52 psi and 60 psi water pressure, by holding your hand under the running kitchen sink faucet.?

"I don't know what magical things you think a home inspector does. Many builders or others with construction experience can do the same things."

Ive spent 22 years in Civil Engineering and Construction Inspection and 17 years in Real Estate. But why would I want to do my own inspection, when I can have someone very up to date and qualified with all the tools do it for a few 100 dollars?
Besides that, the issue here is not who does the inspection, but when is the right time to do the inspection.

"That said, if your answer is no, any REA who has allowed you to do this, absent the sellers knowledge and permission, is either desperate for a deal..or nuts...to put it mildly."

ItÂs more likely their attorney said itÂs ok.

"That's what windows are- openings, and they need to be 100% functional. I want to see them work and I want to be able to pass/fail a house on the first showing, too."

That must be one of the strangest statements IÂve heard yet. To bypass a good house because of that, when everything can be fixed by the seller, or given as a credit to the buyer, after an acceptable offer is made.

xamsx: "To Realtors and Inspectors it seems that the liability of flushing a toilet or turning on a faucet is so great that the average buyer cannot perform this function and must have a qualified Home Inspector do it for them."

I think you have missed the pointand that is the lack of protection for the seller if something breaks...or perhaps even severely damages the property.

Imagine coming home to find major water damage because someone decided to fill the tub...but forgot to turn the water off...

...whom would you suggest pay for the repairs? And...exactly how would one find out who was at faultand how would one prove who was at fault?

Heaven help the RE market indeed, as if sellers don't have enough problems on their hands without having to worry about buyers playing home inspector without obtaining permission to "inspect".and, in turn, accepting zero liability for their non-permitted actions.

"And you can tell the difference between 52 psi and 60 psi water pressure, by holding your hand under the running kitchen sink faucet.?"

If the water in the sink preety much stops when the shower is turned on, you have an issue. When the toilet won't fill with water when something else is running, you have an issue.

"Ive spent 22 years in Civil Engineering and Construction Inspection and 17 years in Real Estate. But why would I want to do my own inspection, when I can have someone very up to date and qualified with all the tools do it for a few 100 dollars?"

Because you care about the property and they don't? Because, from the sounds of it, you are actually more qualified than most HIs? HI rarely have any liability for making a mistake during an inspection. A few hundred dollars is not going to get you much of an inspection. My husband, who is a licensed builder, knows more about what the current rules are (and can also identify boneheaded construction methods) better than most HIs. I'm not saying it is for most people, but for the people who can handle it themselves? It makes sense for them. We walked through my SILs new (to her) home today. We came up with a huge list of code violations, construction issues, etc. in about 15 minutes. Very few of them were noted on her joke of an inspection report. DH has been busy and she didn't want to bother him. Some of the things the guy missed are safety hazards.

I believe all this started with someone posting about how they make offers with no contingency. So that person is not hiring a HI. I also wrote, "I would hope the broker that lets someone do an inspection during a viewing knows the potential buyer very well." And if you read that entire post, you will see I was talking about a limited inspection, not ripping things apart.

sue36: "HI rarely have any liability for making a mistake during an inspection"

In respect to this topic, we were discussing liability for damage...NOT missing a defect.which would be covered under an Errors & Omissions policy.

Now....that established..if one hires an HI ...and he turns on the water to fill a tub..but forgets to turn it of...it will be KNOWN that it was the HI who did so...and, the seller has recourse with the HI. This is a big difference from having to guess who caused the problem.

sue36: "We came up with a huge list of code violations, construction issues, etc. in about 15 minutes. Very few of them were noted on her joke of an inspection report. DH has been busy and she didn't want to bother him. Some of the things the guy missed are safety hazards."

Not to beat a dead horse...but much of the dissatisfaction with HI's is false expectationscase in pointexpecting the HI to find code violations, when they are not code inspectors. And.citing such, even if they KNOW its a violation, constitutes unlicensed practice in most if not all states.

Safety hazards and/or construction issues...were they obscured on the day of inspection...but now evident with all possessions removed?

Last but not least...was he a budget HI? Quickie inspection? Check list or boiler plate report...same day or next? Were references checked? Did the buyers see the contract up frontand discuss the limitations?

The answers to the above help determine if the buyer performed due diligence or not in hiring the HI. Grantedeven so, one can get burnedbut more often than not...the buyer hires using lowest price as the main criteriaand generally asks few if any questions to determine if the HI is a waste.or of value.

"Not to beat a dead horse...but much of the dissatisfaction with HI's is false expectationscase in pointexpecting the HI to find code violations, when they are not code inspectors."

There is no such thing as "unlicensed practice" here because there are no licenses. If they are not supposed to obvious find safety and code violations, what exactly are they looking for? Just rotting window sills? This house has NO working smoke or CO detectors, the furnace vents into the kitchen (must have been a stove in there at one time and they never patched it), there is a wood stove venting into the same chimney as the furnace, there are no cross braces in the attic, the new railing on the side entrance doesn't meet code, the new oil line was installed wrong. There were a lot of other non-safety things, such as all the new windows were installed wrong.

In our area the HI have NO liability, they waive it in the contract.

The HI was, big shocker here, recommended by the RE agent (who was also a moron, she couldn't negotiate her way out of a paper bag). It was $250 for a tiny 1 or 2 bedroom house (I say 1 or 2 because it was sold as a 2 bedroom, but only 1 has a closet so it is a 1 bedroom, and the RE didn't tell her this). A cottage, basically.

sue36: "There is no such thing as "unlicensed practice" here because there are no licenses. If they are not supposed to obvious find safety and code violations, what exactly are they looking for?"

If there is no code enforcement via licensing, Im not clear on how code violations are determined at allcan you provide a bit more info?

That said, even if ones state does not license HIs, it is very easy to determine what is and is not included in a home inspection in accordance with the nationally accepted standards of practice of the HI professional organizations. One can easily review the SOPs (and the COEs) of all of the major organizations on line..or call them to obtain a copy.

Otherwise, it is impossible for a buyer to know what to look for in a contract if they have no clue what a home inspection includesor does not include, as the case may be...and this is exactly what leads to these apparently rampant misconceptions.

If one reviews the ASHI SOPs for instance, it clearly states that the compliance with regulatory requirements (codes, regulations, laws, ordinances, etc.) is an exclusion.and one would therefore not assume the HI will be performing an inspection inclusive of such.

Home inspection and Code Inspection are two separate and distinct professions. This however does not preclude a buyer from searching for an HI who is also a Code Inspector.however, as each code discipline is separateelectrical, plumbing, etc they would have to hire someone who has a proven track record in all.

Im not sure how one does that in a state that does not license code officialsbut one could check on how the state determines that a code official is competent enough for hireand go from there.

In addition, such an inspection would cost much, much more and take far more time than a home inspection, as much more is involved...and, because of how involved such an inspection would be, most code officials I know who also have an HI license do not perform code inspections for the public. They do so only for municipalities.

As far as safety is concerned, a home inspection does include citing safety issues. However, in your state, since the profession is not regulated, the HI can pretty much call his own shots. It is up to the buyer to request the pre-inspection agreement before they hire, and read over what the HI is including in the inspection for the price. If he is not including the items that they expect, keep looking.and of course, check references.

Most if not all HI contracts that I have seen waive liability. However, I have also known more than enough HIs who have been sued nonethelessand, if it was a valid caseand not just a buyer looking for home improvement funding, the buyer has won.

However, if a buyer signs an agreement which specifically does not include the inspection of certain itemsor the exclusion of certina things...they will be hard pressed on winning a case regarding those issues....especially in a state without regulation.

Last but not least, without seeing the contract regarding what was agreed to, and without seeing the report to see what may have been obscured or inaccessible on the day of inspection, it sounds as if the inspection was indeed the typical $250.00 job.

"If there is no code enforcement via licensing, Im not clear on how code violations are determined at allcan you provide a bit more info?"

There are no licensed builders or HI. There are code officers, but they only inspect new construction construction that has lost it's CO (such as after a major fire) and rehab work done that exceeds a certain value. This house probably has not been inspected by a code officer ever because it is older than the code. There are very few licensed code inspectors that don't work for the town. We actually know someone who is a HI and a licensed code inspector, but he is traveling for a few months. My SIL relied on the REA to point her in the right direction, which is never a good idea, IMO. As far as I know, the only thing excluded from the inspection was the exterior of the roof since they won't climb ladders when there is snow on the ground.

For the most part I think HI are a scam. There are good ones, of course. But weeding the good from the bad is difficult. If someone buys a lot of real estate they may have someone they rely on. But most people I know have just used whoever the REA said to use. If that person makes their bread and butter based on REA recommendations, they will find their recommendations dry up if they blow up a lot of deals with scary inspection reports. Our friend who is a HI will not leave his card of REA offices - he wants to be independent of any influence.

I actually think she was overcharged at $250. That is usually the cost around here for a larger house. They spend an hour walking through the house and less than that filling in the blanks on a 3 part form.

Back to the regularly scheduled programming...

As your state does license code officials, anyone citing code without a code license then indeed would be engaging in unlicensed practice.

However, buyers dont seem all that interested in taking charge to make sure they have the best chance of finding a good HI eitherwhich is evidenced by the fact that most hire at the last minute, on REA referralthen complain afterwards that the HI was a waste.

That said.yes, I agree it is difficult to find a good HI...and this is primarily because the NAR has a hold on the profession in that they want to steer the buyer to come to the REA for a referral.

This is why legislation is almost non-existent that precludes the REA from referring an HI.except in MA...but there are so many loopholes it is pointless.

Consequently, HI's can't market to their target demographic in any way that is meaningful, because by the time the buyer looks for an HI they have already had referrals form the REA...and since the majority do ask REA's for referral, very few of those HI's who steer clear of the REA make it in the business...unless they have another stream of income.

I must say that the thing I find most mystifying is that buyers continue to ask the REA for referrals...and hire them...few questions askedgiven all of the dissatisfaction with the HIs. .

Unless buyers become more pro-active in this area, and take charge of their home purchase in this extremely important respect...this problem will never go away.

"...given all of the dissatisfaction with the HIs...."

I don't think most people realize there is dissatisfaction with HIs until they are someone that has been dissatisfied.

Time to call her to remind her to get those smoke and CO detectors TONIGHT.

"I don't think most people realize there is dissatisfaction with HIs until they are someone that has been dissatisfied."

I'm one of them. The majority of HI's I know do a good job, surprising, given their lack of licensing, rules and regs and educational standards in my state.
I would never discourage a buyer from hiring a HI, as some of you might prefer.
The general public needs to be educated about HI's and what they do, and I think it's my job to protect and educate my buyers about the home buying process and provide them with a list of about 30 to 35 HI's, that I know have a proven track record of performing quality inspections for buyers.

"As your state does license code officials, anyone citing code without a code license then indeed would be engaging in unlicensed practice."

Absolute BS.
Want to try that one again?
How about a statute cite?
They are not signing off that the property meets the code, just noting things that are in compliance.

I do not think you can find one, let alone any case law.
The person may not be allowed to testify in a trial, but that is about it.

Berniek wants the buyers to purchase a pig in a poke.
It is not just a simple ''showing, it is the only chance that the property can be inspected without making a commitment in the form of a contract.

I am not about to write out an earnest money check and sign a purchase contract without having as much knowledge as I can obtain about the condition of the property.

Why should I tie up funds and pay to find out if there are defects that can be easily found?
In some places 'readily apparent' defects do not have to be formally disclosed.
The cracked glass, painted shut windows, etc. are considered 'obvious defects' and would not get you out of a contract, even with an inspection clause.

How do you think it worked before we had a fleet of poorly trained folks ('I took a correspondence course') claiming to 'inspect' but then hiding behind various professional organizations and contract limits.
Many HI contracts limit liability to the cost of the inspection.
In most states the only recourse against an HI (or owner not disclosing) is civil action. If the 'damage' is not well into 5 figures it is simply not worthwhile.

Add to all this the stupid buyers who think the inspectors report is a laundry list of repairs to try and stick the seller with.
If they wanted a brand new house they should be dealing with a builder.
Every older house has some problems, and often things that are grandfathered to the present code.
They are NOT brand new houses built to the 'latest and greatest'.

As for roofs, an extension ladder and a good pair of binoculars allow for a pretty decent inspection.
I will do a walk through the first time I look at a property to decide if it is even worth consideration.
Before I commit to purchasing I will return and do a very thorough inspection.

"Berniek wants the buyers to purchase a pig in a poke."

ie.:
"A common colloquial expression in the English language, to "buy a pig in a poke," is to make a risky purchase without inspecting the item beforehand. The phrase can also be applied to accepting an idea or plan without a full understanding of its basis. Similar expressions exist in other languages, most of them meaning to buy a cat in a bag, with some exceptions."

I have to question your reading comprehension if you are relating to the above definition.

Gee, brickeyee, tell us how you really feel..LOL!

Here is the NJ statute cited for your convenience:

N.J.A.C. 45:1-23. Whenever it shall appear to a board, the director or the Attorney General that a violation of any act, including the unlicensed practice of the regulated profession or occupation, or regulation administered by such board has occurred, is occurring, or will occur, the Attorney General, in addition to any other proceeding authorized by law, may seek and obtain in a summary proceeding in the Superior Court an injunction prohibiting such act or practice."

I know in VA (your state I believe) HIs are only asked to register..which is not even requiredapparently it is similar for code officialsas certification is not required.

That said, my comments were regarding those states that actually LICENSE the profession....VA is clearly not one of them....so I can understand your frustration that in VA anyone can pretend to be something they are not...and do so legally.

Now..that established, care to cite statute for all of the states that do license code officialsbut allow unlicensed individuals to practice in the profession none the less?

"...the unlicensed practice of the regulated profession or occupation..."

I am wondering how this works in practice. If only code officials and note when something does or does not meet code, how does a builder do his job? A builder needs to know the code and recognize when it is not being met by subs. I would imagine that the way it actually works is that only a licensed an inspector can hold themselves out as an inspector, but others can inspect (look at things and report of their condition) as part of the duties of their profession. Otherwise, a builder would have to say to a homeowner, "sorry, I can't tell you if you need a GFI there because I am not an inspector, you'll have to hire one."

It doesn't really matter here. Everything is unlicensed. I could call myself a HI if I wanted to, or a builder for that matter. If someone wants to inspect for code they can. The only reason to become a code inspector here is if you want to work for a town, and even then you have a year to get your certification.

In NJ a builder..or the homeowner.... who is having something built.. must get the plans approved by the town building code official. Then, as the construction progresses, the town code officials perform inspections for each pahse of the process. There are also different licenses for structural, electrical, plumbing, residnetial, high rise, etc etc...so each aspect must be inspected...and approved...by the appropriate inspector. Otherwise, no CO.

In NJ, a homeowner can draw up his own plans...but again...they MUST be approved by the town code official.
In NYC...one must pay an Architect to draw up plans..even for a simple deck..as ONLY Architects may apply for permits...and even builders must use an Architect to apply for the permits.

That said, the bottom line is if one is being paid a fee, in NJ they are legally precluded from practicing in a regulated profession for which they are getting paid a fee unless they are licensed in that profession.

Interestingly enough, although a NJ homeowner can draw up plans...get them approved and build his own house...doing all plumbing, electrical, etc...he can't do any of that work for anyone else...unless he is licensed to do so...

In addition, a licensed professional can lose their license if they do work on their own home without permits....

Hope this helps.