I think you are going about it partaially wrong. Rather than ask for actual material quantities for things that no one ever asks for (e.g. LF of tile, LF of coping, Ground Wire size), I think it is better to provide an overview if what you are looking for... and then let the PB tell you these quanties. For instance, you really do not know for certain that 180 LF of tile is needed, unless you've already accounted for the LF required for grout line widths, cuts and waste, etc).

The PB will not want to write down every frickin cost detail like excavation, connecting electrical, skimmer installation, etc... besides, why do you care? Each PB has to excavate and remove dirt, and they have to connect electrical, etc Won't matter of one is more than the other in this regard. Plus, the price they quote for a feature includes installation.

You want overall price from each PB, just make sure they are ALL bidding on the same specs. Simply present the design in a form that the PBs can understand easily... size/depth of pool, number/type of lights, features that you want such as brand/model of equipment, and then let the PB do what they do best: price your pool.

You should ask for an itemized bid, but let the PB itemize it for you.

-Gorilla

Gorilla, thanks for the explanations! Part of my issue is that I just completed a remodel (new construction on 1200 and remodel on 3000)..I laid all my tile so I know something about estimating and allowances...I had 3 GC bid on my project and they all came in at over 90k...I worked my tail off for 5 months, passed all my inspections and completed the project for under 50k...I care because it's my money and I strive to be a good steward of it..we're using our farm as a ministry for underprivileged kids for summer camps in horse riding/summmer camp stuff...plus family use...but any savings I create through asking for these details means more funds I can put towards creating this opportunity...

I just don't see this project costing 65k...If I could save 15-20k that would go a long way in making more happen for our project. The money I saved on doing our home myself is paying for this project...I worked way too long and too hard at general contracting and know what things cost that there has to be some accountability on where they're pulling these figures from. Sure, I could have paid a wood floor company $8000 for my floors, but I hauled them in myself, paid a contractor to install, sand, I stained and finished them myself..it cost me less than 3k for a better grade white oak than the floor company would have charged...and why do I ask? Because I saved 5,000 dollards I can use towards creating a dream...

Here's what I have so far...
Jandy Stealth $550
Autopilot Salt Generator $1500
Kreepy Krauly $320

I'm also wondering if they would just let me purchase the hardware and take that pricing out of the bid...I've found very good deals online for a lot of these pieces and I was curious if I put a price on there if it would beat what they're paying wholesale...I don't mind putting in the time to find these values and it's still a warrantied product...just going at it from all angles...others said it was hard to price a pool without all the variables, I'm giving all the variables and I know an AZ or FL pool will run at a different cost but not 25k...the pool market is very slow right now in our area and I am not afraid of some hard work...

Tara

Okay, this thread may end up being a self-help thread but I'd like to put my thoughts out there to get affirmations or pointers...

I'm thinking I can save some money by installing the Autopilot myself...if I ask the pool builder to install the manifold and let me go through installing it...I know some pool builders will charge $2500 for the unit and installation...so if I can put it in myself I might save some money there...I've installed 7 ceiling fans, repaired broken plumbing pipes...I'm sure that's one way I can cut the cost down...

Two of the pool builders acted like they were not opposed to the idea of me doing some of the work and them covering others...I'm just trying to figure out what all I can do...
thanks!!
Tara

lmhall2000,

Why not just go the owner builder route? This way, you can negotiate each step of the pool build.

Aqua man, I'm thinking of doing this, I just don't know where to go to get the pool sprayed with gunite...I've heard horror stories of it going badly and I'd like to rely on an experienced builder to create the shell and pool but looking for anything I can do to finish the touches...

Thanks!! I may just get there, but don't have the confidence to do that yet....had no fear of doing the house reconstruction/remodel but pools can be major headaches if done wrong...I'm just not the type to just accept a price without a breakdown of where it's going.

Tara

Aqua man, I took your suggestion and have been cutting out a plan by reading up on the forum by the man who built his own pool..it's loaded with information! Your pool is awesome and I'd love to hear any tips from you on how you organized and found your contractors..

Did you hire a structural engineer for the plans? My local county inspection only required a schematic when I was laying out my new construction plans on my house..I think I'd like to have a structural engineer put specs on my plan...

Thanks!
Tara

Thanks, Tara!

I got my list of contractors from several members of this forum and from an aquaintance in our neighborhood who went the owner builder route, also.

The process is pretty straight forward. design pool, submit pool design for permit, dig, plumb/electric, rebar, gunite, tile, plaster, fill pool with water :-)

Out here in California we use a "Wet Seal" or "Steel Schedule" for our engineeering specs. My rebar guy charged me $75 for this sheet of paper that had specs for different aspects of the pool build (I.e., waterfall, diving board, retaining wall, etc) and I just highlighted which aspects I was having built. I turned this in along with my design to get my permit.

Out here in Northern Ca, most pool builders sub-contract out portions of the pool build, so I ended up using the same digger, plumber, electrician, steel guy, gunite crew, plaster crew, rock/tile crew as all my neighbors, who signed with pool builders to build their pool.

If I can do an owner buld pool, then anyone can :-) I am NOT a DIY type of guy.

Good luck with your project. Use the fine members of this forum and you will be ok.

Imhall2000,
Just GC it out yourself... Most of the PBs sub everything out anyhow... just use the same guys for your build. You say you want an experienced PB to shoot the shell and plaster, but really want you want is a good sub to shoot the shell and the plaster.
The subs may put you lower on the scheduling list, since you are a one time customer, but extra incentives can take care of this problem.
Sounds like you are a good candidate for this.

ncrealestateguy...I love your pool and can't wait to see it finished! Meant to comment on the dogwood...for 10-20 years you'll be fine but after that the roots spread far...I'm in Alabama near TN and have lived in Georgia/Tennessee, just planted 2 dogwoods myself, love them but you might be happier with the little gem magnolia's...they won't grow too big and they're dward magnolias...also tea olives are wonderful because the scent they give off is so refreshing....they can be trained in tree form...

My husband just knows what we went through with the home remodel..lots of tired weekends but that was due to me doing the grunt work (staining 2000 sq. feet of floors is not relaxing)...but I don't see me doing much physical labor other than possibly tiling...need to ask around for some good crews....thanks!!

Tara

aqua man you're giving me hope! :) I faxed my plans to the 3 builders who build gunite in my area..you know what gets me is that deep down they're thinking they're talking to a wife of a husband who must make lots of money bc of the house we live in and the land we have (acreage is at a premium right now)...the truth is we got this property at a deal and I worked my tail off getting it to look like this...and my dh has worked 2 jobs to pay for 2 mortgages...my promise to my husband for being a sweetheart and letting me live my dream of training horses and giving back to my community was to give him a pool...heck, with horses we just can't take off on vacations much anymore...with the summer camps it'll be a great release to ride in this Alabama heat then jump in a pool.

So, today I faxed my final plans to the 3 builders...this price is WITHOUT the chlorinator and everything mentioned above except the 3 deck jets (guess he missed those on my materials list I gave him)...but he came in at $59,900...please!!! I know friends in North Carolina/Tennessee/Georgia that have the same size pool specs, paver decking, waterfalls, spa and only paid 40k..this was 1-3 years ago but please...60k for a 20x40 pool with concrete decking?? I'm wondering if these quotes are there to just motivate my stubborn streak and do it myself. Going to talk to a fella I know that does backhoe work with these pool builders...he might can refer me to a consultant that I can pay to double check the subs work to make sure I don't miss anything....I'm 50% committed to doing it myself...I'm thinking I can do it for 40k easy...any others think I can?

I'll be paying cash so hope to work that into a better sub rate. Any tips on where I can get as close to a wholesale price on my pumps/filters/chlorinator and which ones you'd choose?
Thanks so much!
Tara

Okay, I'm pretty much 100% committed to doing it myself. I hope my project will help others decide if they want to take this on or choose the builder route. I probably won't get started until mid-September...figure I can get some of the better crews at that time and the weather here is nice until December...so we may not be able to really use it until next May but I'll save a penny or two.

Please anyone who is willing to share their "ideal" setup for pumps/filters/chlorinators or anything they would do differently or not add please share! I will try and search the other posts for these tips. I think I may have to go with the Diamondbrite only because I don't know if I could get a decent pebble tec crew down here, Nashville is only 1.5 hours away so I'll search there and see if I can find help...thanks!
Tara

Just spoke with the Pebble tec rep in my nearest city that does them, he gave me a quote of 9k to come and do it...7k for the (Pebble Sheen) and 2k for having to get license to do work across state lines and putting up the workers...heck, if they'll spend the night at my house I'll give them all their meals! :) Does that sound reasonable...I figure with the money I save doing it myself I can afford the Pebble Sheen...we're going to have lots of kids in this pool and he said the Pebble Tec would hurt their feet....

Thanks!
Tara

Tara

Hi. I live just north of Hunstville. I went down the OB path a few years ago and got frustrated with the lack of subs in the area for a gunite pool. Drop me a line at ellbaker@yahoo.com. Maybe we can share subs and get a pool that we can both afford.

Eric

Quote: "I figure with the money I save doing it myself I can afford the Pebble Sheen...we're going to have lots of kids in this pool and he said the Pebble Tec would hurt their feet.... "

Pebble Tec texture is like the surface of a basketball or orange. It's bumpy, but it's not hard on the feet. Sheen has a smaller aggregate and therefore doesn't feel "bumpy". It's really a matter of preference rather than being a comfort issue.

Imhall2000, I don't know if this helps you....but I have got several estimates from PB's in TN area. One of them itemized some things for me like Pebbletec finish, Durazzo, DiamondBrite and Marcite finishes. This was for a 41x19 pool(10ft deep)(freeform). We would have to have people from Atlanta come do Pebbletec, which would be the same for you I believe. Actually, this particular PB itemized several things for me and I am guessing his prices are are the higher side, he is a well known, highly recommended and award winning PB in this area who I would hire in a heartbeat but..... can't afford him.(this PB thinks Durazzo is smoothest and best for feet and toes)

I also got estimates for a 20x40 rectangle, both gunite and vinyl. This was late fall/ early winter last.

I don't have a pool yet, but want one badly, and have been doing my homework.

I don't want to start typing numbers tonight because, quite frankly, I have had one more glass of Kendall Jackson than I should have.(i don't do that alot, just celebrating a special occasion this evening) But let me know if you are interested and first thing in am w/ coffee I can give some numbers if you like.

Aww! Great!! Thanks so much for your help! I'll email ya tonight, maybe if terrier lives close we could do a 3 in one Owner builder and get this done! :) If we could promise a builder 3 pools, we could either work out a deal or contract out ourselves....that's my issue is finding the subs who know how to do gunite! We could lower the price on the gunite by bringing a crew in from B'ham or Atlanta...ah the possibilities! :) I have a backhoe guy who has dug pools..he's very good...but that's all I've found at this juncture...please sleep off the KJ (have no idea what that is! guessing it's not sweet Luzianne tea) and email me those bids...
One of the owners on this forum just built a pool very similar to mine and it would cost $37,000...he's in Orlando, but surely there can't be a 20k markup for Huntsville! I would gladly pay a pool builder 40k to build my pool, just don't feel like killing our family to eek out the other 20k!

Thanks!
Tara

Good morning,
would love to be able to do a OB in coordination w/ both of you but....I think I am a little too far away(Knoxville) and most importantly, although saving some money sounds great, OB seems like too much of a headache for me. I also don't have the confidence in my knowledge to carry that out.
But, I certainly don't mind doing what to spread some of the info. I have collected so far if it helps you make some decisions.
I think Alabama,GA, TN areas the markets for pools are similar. Unfortunately, I think yes, one could probably get a pool built in Florida for 20K less than here. Many more PB's there driving the market, also I think it is easier to excavate there(I might be guessing on that) but know it is sandier,less clay than here.

The options one PB gave me for pool finishes are
Marcite(included)
Diamond Brite 4,500
Pebbletec 6,000
Durazzo 6,500.

Of course that was for a 41x19 free-form, 3-10ft, so it is not comparing apples to apples. To do that I would have to figure surface area and break it down.
The cost for that pool was to 70,500
which included everything but the decking. I had pavers priced, but he gave me option for broom finished concrete, which was $7 sg.ft.
As I said, I couldn't afford that one, but it did include alot of upgrades,
electric heat pump
8' diving board
Letro pool cleaner
SWG
Durazzo finish
Pentair 30"Sand filter
and all the assumables like lights,skimmers, drains, excavation, plumbing, etc.

Another pool builder priced a 20x 40 gunite rectangle at
50,000 here.
including about 1,000 sf broom finish concrete
gas heater(I don't want a gas heater so would have to add $$)
SWG
sand filter
dive board
and all the assumables.

Have you considered a vinyl pool??
Nowadays, you can hardly tell the difference between a gunite and vinyl if you get a cantilever coping, vinyl over step and you have more money that can be put into decking or landscaping. Here a middle of the road price for a 20x40 rectangle 3.5-8ft deep was 41,000. Would be less if you want gas heat instead of heat pump, and that included 1104sg ft broom finish concrete, vinyl over step, SWG,dive board, heat pump, sand filter, skimmers, etc.
I understand that a vinyl pool may be a little easier to heat and a little easier to keep the chemicals balanced. When polled, my sons said they actually like swimming in friends vinyl pools better.
I don't think I will go vinyl since I need a more custom pool to fit in my space but I would definitely do vinyl if it would work for us. Takes a lot less time to install as well.
Well, wish I could spend more time here, but have to get going, part two of celebration weekend, taking second son off to college today.
If you have specific questions regarding costs of any options let me know, I will be getting back to this site late tonight probably.

Bravo on taking at least three bids. Good luck on getting them to itemize the whole pool for you.
I can only speak for Texas, but here a swimming pool is a "turn key" job. My builders pay the sales tax for the materials that we supply to him at the time of delivery.
If he itemizes every part, he should charge you sales tax.
Now for my usual advise on choosing a PB. The cheapest bid may not be the best one. Ask for refrences and check them out. Call or surf the BBB. Look at some pools he actually built. Get warranty info up front. Who is responsible for what?
The manufacturers warranty their products, but I have seen them take care of a non warranty issue, just because the builder is a BIG customer.
Likewise I have sent the better pump or larger filter at no extra charge to jobs for my "BIG" builders. It's business. It happens in every industry.
Good luck.

Colt and terrier thanks!!

I wish we could do vinyl..2 black labs say otherwise. We really need WIDE steps and because we're limited on space in the backyard (only 36' width from house to fence) the largest fiberglass steps they make are 8'...there is a 10' fiberglass step in a Roman style pool but you actually don't have a lot of steps....if they wrapped the vinyl across the steps they would not survive my dogs...plus we like the fact that the pebble tec comes with a 15 year warranty and that would last through the period of time we're planning on running our farm as a camp of sorts...I don't think a liner would stand up to the traffic.

I'm not about choosing the cheapest...I'm leaning towards 2 of the three..they are the ONLY 3 that even do gunite. And only one of them have had a pebbletec sub come in....

Terrier, thanks for the info about Durazzo...don't even know if they've used that, I wonder if their finish is guaranteed for 15 years? I was also thinking of a cartridge or DE filter, just don't want all those chemicals spilling into my pastures where my horses eat/drink.

Terrier, where do you live? We're in Toney near Old Railroad Bed...I'll let you know what happens...still waiting on the quote from "J" pools...hope they're more reasonable!!

Thanks!!
Tara

Two labs would rule out vinyl. In this case, I might entertain the idea of a sand filter. A friend had one lab, and his fur was all over the grids on his de filter. Backwashing got most of it, but his pressure ran high all the time.
I think you would be cleaning cartridges very frequently, and the more you have to open and close a tank, the more wear on the band, spring and nuts.
I don't think the DE would hurt the horses but i'm not a horse expert. We had one when we lived in Springtown Tx about 30 miles out of Ft Worth. Ginger was her name, and she taught me how very little I knew about horses , on several occations....lol
Not everybody in Texas is a cowboy.

lmhall2000,
Thanks for the comments on my pool. I will be posting more pics in the next day or two, so check back.
You say that you can build your pool for $40,000, and that your first bid was for $59,000... that is a 33% markup, which, from what I have found, is just about standard for the pool business.
I work from home a lot, and I watched every detail of my pool build. I would definately sub it myself the next time. Way less complicated than building a house. between this forum, and your DIY attitude, you would be fine.
Thanks for the ideas on the trees. The dwarf magnolias are beautiful trees, but the leaves do drop and I think they would be hard to suck up with the polaris. The tea olives are nice too. I will check into these when I get to that point. Thanks for the suggestions!
Good luck on choosing doing it yourself or not.

Colt...guess Ginger was a bit spicier than you thought! :) Horses are amazing animals...we have a rescue of sorts and just rubbing him this morning with the lead rope was a HUGE SUCCESS!! We have to take the little victories as they come, my other horse is as laid back as they get (though the thoroughbred in her gives her some gitty up and go!) It's amazing to watch the transformation in an abused horse coming into a trusting horse...we're about 40% there with the strides we've made...but yet a long way to go...guess 7 years of abuse to only 4 months of love and care...that's not a bad ratio!

NCrealestateguy...the nice thing with the little gems is that the leaves pretty much stay put because of their weight...I would have about 10 leaves drop every 2 months...not a bad time picking up those...never found one more than 3 feet from the tree even with all these horrific thunderstorms we get around here. I will say the tea olives shed more...how about a weeping Alaskan Cedar? They grow soo slow and the weeping form is beautiful. Can't wait to see your choices!!

I really think I could do this myself...I'll give the pool companies a counter offer and tell them of my plans and see if any will be willing to consult on the side...I figure if I start at the end of September when things are slowing down and take my time we could come out with a better option!

Thanks!
Tara

Imhall2000,
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.
Was getting my college son settled in his dorm on Sunday,(is there early to start working out with the football team) and yesterday we had our electric circuit board changed out (had to done before I can get a pool), I had no electricity, thus no computer.

To answer your question, I live in Knoxville TN. I don't know how far that is from you. Couple of hours I imagine.

I feel the same way you do about vinyl and dogs, although many people have told me their dogs were not a problem in a vinyl pool, unless they fall in and panic and claw at the side trying to get out. Some people have said as long as they know how to get out on the steps they are fine. Actually I am a little more worried about the number of teenage boys I might have in the pool. And I know someone will do something like break some glass or knock some furniture in.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck w/ your build. I will be keeping up w/ you to see how it goes!