I am by no means a plumbing expert, but can offer what little I think I know. The vent should go up (so the problem may not be under the floor) and could be blocked, especially since this is a recent problem. Sometimes small animals, leaves, etc. can get in the vent pipe from the roof.

Sounds like you need an expert to check the whole thing over, unless you can identify a block and remove it.

rhome410

I don't even know if there IS a vent for the bathtub. Should there have been a new/additional one installed? The shower was existing, although it was moved, the sink hookup was existing, but all the liens were replaced and it too was moved, and the toilet was replaced but kept in the same spot. I don't even know if there was a vent for an of it to begin with, as the original piping was done in 1942. I know he didn't bring it up to code, whatever he did, based on my recent experience spending $2000 to fix the electrical panel mess.

I am seriously about to lose it. the day started so nicely-visited GranTops and looked at some great pieces of soapstone, ordered my chandeliers for the kit for $225 for both, got my counter stools at Ballards for 20% off....

And then my older son stopped up the upstairs toilet something terrible-the water ran down the wall in to the hall area where we have all of our coats on hooks...two hours later the basement bathroom sewer gases...

Sorry for the vent...I am so frustrated with dishonest and subpar contractors...this is why I am the GC on the kitchen and I am doing as much of it DIY as I can.

It does sound like you should start with the vent. If I remember correctly, if your vent is clogged, then your tub drain is exerting enough pressure to empty your trap under your sink when it is draining as it is not able to pull air from the vent. This allows the sewer gas to come in.

I hope this is the answer because it is the easiest one to fix.
Now I know what you've been doing! Let me know if you need the drawings. I did reply to your emails.

cleo-

I am in such a pickle. I have been trying to source a good plumber for weeks (for the kitchen) to no avail. I don't even know who to call that I can trust to check! This is so frustrating. This bathroom has been giving us problems from day 1. Unfortunately, I can't even check to see the vent 9if there is one) because we have a slate roof (slippery), and it is 2 stories directly above the full story basement walkout...i.e. too dangerous.

BTW, I think my fax is psycho-I couldn't get it to do anything but beep at me. Maybe we should just go the snail mail route with the drawing if you wouldn't mind. I wil email you my address.

You need to get a real plumber out there to take a look. I have used Calvert Plumbing and they did a good job and it was reasonable if that helps.

Here you have the Better Business Bureau - which at least would warn others. If he had a mhic license number, you can file a complaint with the home improvement commission - http://www.dllr.state.md.us/license/home_imprv/mhiccomp.htm cause the guy has at least a 50k bond with them.

I'm sure there's other legal remedies open also - I wouldn't know what they are, but be sure to think about documentation, photographs and expert opinions if a plumber thinks its bad.

bmorepanic-

Love your name- my email is balmergirl.

To make things so wonderfully complicated, filing with MHIC has another set of problems. This guy works full time for my dad's company, and does this contracting business on the side. It is going to get really awkward when I call the MHIC and file a complaint. My dad's company has people that work there for life, and, well, it will spread like wildfire. It is such a mess. He does have a current liscence # with no problems (then and currently) with MHIC or the BBB.

I have heard of Calvert. What kind of work did they do for you?

You really do need a REAL plumber to take a look but I would bet that the original toilet etc were properly vented so your new stuff should be too. Do you really need to go on the roof to see the vent? We have a three story house and I can see all of the vents from the street.

I feel your pain with the bad GC. We had a similar experience when remodeling the hall bath. The original contractor cost us $23K and we had to spend another $20K to fix most of what he did wrong (including loose live wires in the ceiling) and we didn't even fix everything. I couldn't face ripping out all of the tile to replace the green board he installed with cement board. I'm hoping it holds up another three years till the girls are in college! You must be so frustrated!!! I hope solution to your problem is a simple one. Good Luck.

Two things for me, one for where I worked. Sewer line replacement, boiler repair, new laundry rough-in.

Update:

DH and I just filled the tub up with water to where I had it when I took a bath. First thing I noticed was the water was YELLOW. It was aqua blue when I took a bath before. Is there any way that unsanitary water could be getting into the pipes???

So we filled it up, and then opened the drain up in the tub. Immediate LOUD gurgles and bubbles in the shower drain (water was very close to the top of the drain). After a bit of this the water completely stopped draining from the tub. I had to alternate opening up and closing the drain to allow in to get air behind the water to clear out.

The shower drain now reeks. I feel sick.

Water pipes are not connected to the drains. So the only way you could have 'bad' water coming in is if you have a spigot or hose somewhere that's touching a basin of water. Usual culprit would be a hose outside running into a pool. An old hot water tank has rust and mineral crud, so that might affect the hot water colot. That's why it's recommended to use cold water for cooking.

All drains should be vented, all drains also run to the sewer. You need a plumber who can figure out where the clogs are and clear them. The U-traps and clear vents keep the sewer gas out.

You could simply have a clogged drain - if the water from your tub can't get down the sewer drain it will back up to the shower. And that means the clog is below the where the shower drain connects to the main line. They all eventually share the same vent and the same sewer line.

If your other drains are working fine, then your plumber can figure out where the clog is. A clogged drain could clog the vent as well. Not as likely, but possible. Vents also help the water drain by preventing a vacuum.

I would ask the guy who did the work if he put vents in for the new tub and how he tied it into the existing vents. He could probably sketch out what's in the basement. Is there really a toilet in the basement? Was it there before? I noticed you said an upstairs toilet overflowed? Was this fixed? If so, with what? a toilet auger or a plunger? If you get a plumber out there, tell him/her everything.

If you have any old galvanized iron water pipes, that could explain the yellowish water, too. Bit of rust in the water.

We do have the galvanized water pipes. But what was weird was that I had very clear "aqua blue" water wwhen I took my bath, and then when we did a test 2 hours later, the water was yellow. I notice that on my tub tabs upstairs, when we have rust in the line, it comes out orange, and for only just a moment.

The upstairs toilet was fixed with a plunger. I am calling a plumber this morning. I felt sick when I went to bed last night, because I am so afraid that the whole bathroom is going to have to come out and cost me all of my kitchen money.

Amberly....if you need a plumber, we recently went through a lot w/plumbers and found a couple that I recommend based on past experiences with them.

First, Ken Griffin Plumbing & Heating (has an overall Angie's List rating of A). They serve Howard County & portions of Baltimore, Carroll, & Anne Arundel counties.

Also, Mark Brew Plumbing & Heating. I don't know their range. They're located in Clarksville. They're not on Angie's List, but then again most around here are not. Ken Griffin is the first local tradesman that I've found on Angie's List!

I hope I'm not breaking some rule of the Forum by mentioning these plumbers. I know them solely based on professional experiences, I have no financial or non-professional relationship with either of them. (We had to go outside our Kitchen installer's plumber for some work, and out of all the plumbers we dealt with, these two are the only ones I would recommend.)

buehl-

I called Calvert Plumbing this morning on recommendation from bmorepanic. I will probably need to have a couple more out to give me estimates, however, because I may go the legal route if this gets uglt. I spoke with a good friend who lives across the street who is an attorney, and she said the first thing to do is get 3-4 estimates on the cost to fix everything, and get at least one who is willing to testify in court. She said if I can keep it under $10,000 (whcih was at least half the cost originally) then I can keep it in district court, which means she could assist me in the legalities. Over that amount, and you get into big time attorney fees, time, jury trials, etc.

I am calling MHIC this morning also to see where I can get with them. This is such a disaster. Everyone in my family (excluding DH) thinks we are nuts for being so particluar and researching this kitchen stuff to death, and deciding to GC our kitchen. Well, it is becuase I got screwed in my basement, and will probably end up spending more to fix it than it cost to put it in!!!

Where are you in MD?

Just a word of caution before you take legal action - if I read your post correctly, he did the work 3 years ago and your problems are just showing up now - make sure it's because of what he did - and more importantly, the work was done without a permit - that most likely is your responsibility not his and can cause you lots of problems, not him.

I'm so sorry you have to go through this! I don't understand people who don't take pride in their work and do a good job, regardless of who's "looking" I hope in the end you don't have to go to court, but it doesn't sound good... :-(

I know what you mean about others thinking you're crazy to be so TKO...my family & friends think I'm nuts too! Even DH thought so originally....but we've gotten so much help from this Forum...first w/kitchen design and then w/the problems we've been having...that my DH, at least, is now a "convert"!

If it's any consolation as far as GC'ing your kitchen is concerned, I think we've spent just as much time on this kitchen as if we'd GC'd it ourselves and we're paying our KD for that!

Oh, we're in western Howard County.

Good luck!

Amberley--You might have cleared the line before stoppering the tub and not remember doing so...least ways, 'I' probably wouldn't remember!

Do you know if the outside sewer line has ever been replaced? And how long ago?

Relative to your neighborhood, is your house situated in the lowest area? The reason I ask this is because it is possible for the city collection system to be backed up and, if your tie-in to the sewer is at the lowest point, then you'll be the first in the neighborhood to have problems.

Another potential trouble spot--where is your laundry room located. In the basement? Where does it tie into the sewer line?

The reason I ask about the laundry is that washers used to have lint filters that you could clean. Nowadays, most washing machines are 'self cleaning'--meaning that they wash the lint down the drain...and that can cause problems. We used to have to pull the washer out a couple of times a year (everyone in my house wears blue jeans) and clean out that section of line (cast iron lines). I finally resorted to draining the washer into the laundry tub with a lint catcher sock on the end of the hose plus a strainer in the sink. Amazing how much stuff gets collected. Not tidy looking but it works and much preferable to dealing with clogs.

This is such a disaster. I just had Calvert Plumbing out and they are certain that the venting is the problem. I remembered I had pics of the walls going up, and they clearly show, he said, that there is no venting.

It looks like we are looking at a complete gut in order to get to the pipes to do it correctly. I don't know what I am going to do. I called the Maryland Home Improvement Commission, and I am going to file a complaint. I can at most, get $15,000. This is going to cost way more than that.

I don't now what I am going to do. It looks like the kitchen reno has gone out the window.

I think I am just going to go sit on the sofa and cry.

Do you know if the original plumber was insured? I don't know if this would qualify, but perhaps his insurance would pay to have it done...just b/c there's a limit from the MHIC, does that mean you cannot sue him for more?

I freely admit I know nothing about the legalities, but I'm throwing ideas out there hoping something will work/help!

It's definitely time to retain a lawyer about this!

The guy who put it in works for your dad. Do you not want to ask him what was done? You might also get a second plumber out. You've had 3 years of clear water in the tub till the other day, is that related or something else? It might help to have a list of questions- including why the problems are worse now.

I'm going to echo some of what Alexr said.

It isn't like the original plumber disappeared off the face of the earth. You need to contact him. And, you need to talk to your dad about how to handle the situation.

Also, like Alex said, get some more opinions and estimates to bring the house up to code.

And, you need to think seriously about the decision you made to cut corners and have the original work done without permits and, apparently, without proper inspection.

I'm getting the feeling that there is quite of bit of the story that we don't know.

Here is what happened three years ago. I was 5 1/2 months pregnant. We had a contractor (a very good one) lined up to do our basement remodel. He was in a car accident, and was unable to take any new jobs on for a year and a half. We didn't know what to do. My Dad has had a number of tradespeople work in his home on weekends that worked for his company full time, so he suggested this person whom had worked for him for 15 years. The guy had a contracting business on the side.

We had him out, he gave us an estimate, and told us that he would be able to get the work done before the baby was born. He stated late by at least 3 weeks, and would skip weekend days altogether (was only working on the weekends), and work short days even when he was here.

When I asked about whether we needed a permit, he said no, but you could get one if you wanted to, it would just take ALOT longer. It was posed to me as a choice, and I did not know any better at the time. Yes, I should have known. However, I believe it was unethincal of him to lie-he should have said I can't do the work without a permit.

I was not happy about how things went from the get go, and for things that I could physically see we not up to par, I called him on it (although he didn't always fix it). The plumbing is something however, that I have no clue as to whether or not it is correct even if I am staring at it. Same goes for the electrical (I said earlier that I just spent $2000 fixing the illegal panel).

It got to the point where I just wanted this guy to get out of my house, becuase I was going to give birth any day. That is how long this took. He still wasn't finished when the baby was born. Please not also that I had a very uncomfortable pregnancy and I was trying to care for a 2 year old as well.

I just don't see how it is my fault that he did this work so that it is incorrect, illegal, and hazardous. I now know better about the permits, but isn't he the one who should have gotten the permits, and told me he couldn't proceed until they were in place?

My theory is that he saw a situation he could take advantage of. I told him I wanted it done before the baby, so he said that if we did it with a permit it wouldn't be done before that deadline (turns out it wasn't anyway, but...). Also, I think he cut ALOT of corners once he was in there, because the job was much bigger than he had estimated, and he didn't want to spend his time and money neccessary to do the work correctly. I think he knowingly did the work wrong to cut costs, and lied to us about it.

Sorry about the rant, I am just really frustrated that I am going to end up paying for this twice, and now my kitchen is on hold.

buehl-

I am very lucky in that I have two close friends who happen to live across the street who are both attorneys. Hopefully I will get some good direction form them this evening. Meanwhile, I am planning to call your plumbers tomorrow (would have called today, but I have been running since 11:00 after 1st plumber left). According to MHIC, I can still file a complaint with them even without having gotten the permit. There is a Guaranty Fund that can be applied for (up to $15000), but that will require a lot of time and red tape-have to go before a judge, etc.

Many thanks by the way to you all for your encouragement and suggestions. If anyone else has some really good plumbers in Maryland, I would love to give them a call- I am going to need at least 3-4 estimates for legal purposes.

First- I am so sorry! Second - take a deep breath and get your ducks in a row. Add some wine if needed :). I live in Howard County and can second the recommendation for Ken Griffin. Also, our GC for our basement renovation brought in R.E. Robertson out of Annapolis and they were wonderful to work with. HTH!!!

I haven't read every word of this thread, but it seems pretty obvious that you need a professional to help sort this out. It may end up being very simple, so chin up!

For me, having a personal relationship with the person who did the original install would be a plus: I'd ask him to come check it out. I'd be careful to use phrases like 'what do you think the problem might be?' rather than 'can you fix this'-- ask for estimates, tell him you'll have to give it some thought. You don't want to give him a blank work order [even verbally] any more than you'd give him a blank check.

But if you aren't comfortable with that, try visiting some of the local plumbing shops in person. Many plumbers who basicly work out of their garage are great, but there's a chance of getting one who really isn't, as well. But a shop that's also a retail outlet, clean and well lit, is at least likely to stand behind their work.

It's also perfectly acceptible to ask a plumber for references: they may be a little surprised since so few people do this, but they should be able to give you the names of a few local people you can call.

I've seen a lot of drain vents that have no sort of cover on them: a bird or rodent could get in there and plug it, giving you terrible sewer gas and drains that don't. Drain, that is.

Amberley - I'm wincing with pain for you here. This is a mess. I'm sure it can be fixed - I've learned through my kitchen redo, that anything can be fixed. It's just the cost. At this point I would take the legal route even if it doesn't yield you all of what you paid for the mess this guy made. You may be able to salvage some of your sanity as well, just knowing you can use that money to get help from one of the reputable companies mentioned here. I don't know any of them but just knowing where the referrals are coming from, I'm sure these are good companies.

If I can say something good here - I used GranTops for my granite. I purchased it from ArcStone and it cost me a pretty penny to have GranTops purchase the granite from them. But I have to tell you, they did a wonderful job on the install. I recently had them come out to fix a crack and it looks better than before (and it was good (at least to me) before they came back out. I really loved their work, even considering the markup. I have very neat and clean looking seams too.

Good luck with getting back on track with your kitchen remodel - and the plumbing issue too.

buehl- I called Ken Griffin Plumbing, and at first the gal I spoke with said that they don't service my area, but after hearing the situation, she put me on hold, and another woman came on and told me she spoke to Ken, and they would like to take a look at it for me given the scope and seriousness of the problem. I like them already!! They are coming tomorrow.

I also called Mark Brew Plumbing today, and they do service my area. They are trying to get out here by Thursday. I am also calling R.E. Robertson recommended by lagrant.

I had a stiff drink ready for DH when he came home, and we enjoyed our last fire in the fireplace for the season last night. Tried to put it out of our minds. This morning it is bak to getting all my ducks lined up.

Amberley, I hope you get some good news from the other plumbers you have lined up. I was sick for weeks when we had a similar experience with bad work done. I finally had to pretend that I'd spent the money on a great vacation and just move on, but I wasn't planning another project at the time. I can imagine how disappointed you are about your kitchen. Don't give up yet, though. It still might be a simpler fix than expected.

Both Ken Griffin & Mark Brew were very responsive to us as well. I wish we could have given them both our work, but we had to choose one!

Mark may be a little more creative...he had presented a different, less expensive solution to our problem but everyone else questioned it, they weren't sure it would pass code. So, we went with the solution that the other two plumbers had suggested (we had already eliminated our contractor's plumber from the running)--Ken Griffin did the work. When the county inspector came to inspect the work, I asked him about Mark's solution and the inspector assured me that his solution would have passed code & an inspection.

The bottom line is that I think either one of them will be a good choice...if you go with one of them! (We had Mark out a couple of times a few years ago to do some work first on our well and and later holding tank & hot water heater.)

buehl-

Mark is coming on Thursday. Ken Griffin is coming tomorrow, and I have my mom's contractor's plumber calling me back today to set up a time.

the irony would be if my mom's guy does the work to fix it- he was the one who was supposed to get the job in the first place before he was in a car accident.

I'll post tomorrow after Ken Griffin is here.

My mom's contractor and his plumber sub was here this afternoon. They agreed that the original contractor didn't vent the shower or the tub. They said there is a possiblity that they won't have to jack the floor, or demo the shower, but they really won't know until they pull the tub. They also think they might be able to run a vent up the side of the house, close to both fixtures, because there is a now filled in hole in the foundation wall that used to have the oil tank pipe in it. This is key, because my foundation is solid fieldstone.

Only problem is, he can't give me an estimate because he could be opening a can of worms, and really has no idea what he is going to find, or how deep he will have to go to fix it.

Stay tuned for plumber #3 tomorrow.

Can I get in on this conversation with a question?

I have something similar in my 22 year old house.
It is three stories. We do not have city sewer.
We sometimes have a sewer gas odor that comes up the vents in two bathrooms only.
They are exactly on top of each other.
We have had a plumber out to the house three separate times. At first he said make sure to keep traps wet.
We did that, smell sometimes comes back. He came out again, same thing and checked everything.

Last time he said that all fixtures go into one large vent pipe on roof. Husband got up there and sure enough only one for 4.5 baths, washer, etc. The smell is only in these two bath areas. There is one bath below these two exactly as well. He said tub downstairs is not used much and trap could be dry.

He extended the vent pipe up several feet in the air. He said sometimes when weather system moves in, it can hold gases down.

We have absolutely no idea what this could be. It only happens every couple of weeks, but when it does, it smells so bad. We have also smelled this outside once or twice and it was so bad, I was so embarrassed. We were gone one week and our friends walked by the house to make sure everything was okay. They said they thought something BIG had died there and they actually walked around the back of the house but could not find anything.

Please any thoughts.
Desperate in NC

scotlandyard- try doing a post looking for people who have had success with plumbers in your area. Three that I have had out to my house I never would have found without the great people on GW. Hopefully you won't have as big of a fix as I do...

buehl-

Ken Griffin was here yesterday, and Mark Brew today. They both had the idea as to what the fix needs to be. Of course, that means jacking up the floor, tearing down the wall....

I like both of them as well. Only real difference is that Ken can do all of the work (tiling, carpentry, etc) and Mark only does the plumbing. That just means I would need to get other subs. We shall see what the numbers say.

Thankfully I found in-progress pictures that show a bit of the plumbing, and those seemed to be very helpful to them.

I also have my home inspector coming out to take a look as well, as I am now aware of multiple code violations (more plumbing, more electrical....).

Thanks so much for the recommendations. What would I do without GW!!!

I am so sorry this is happening, but happy you are getting some answers.

There must be a specific word for that feeling - the one that says this is going to suck up all my money but at least I'll get to stop worrying about it.

bmorepanic- thanks for the Calvert recommendation. They may opt not to bid on the work as they are evidently trying to get out of residential work. They might take it on, however, since it is such a HUGE job.

By the way, both the last 2 plumbers showed me that NOTHING on this bathroom was vented at all. The original installation from 1942 didn't have a vent. Evidently this was not uncommon for a seldom used basement bathroom (Ken Griffin used the term "butler's flush").

Thankfully the bathroom doesn't have any relationship to any other household plumbing, so it doesn't effect the upstairs bathroom or the kitchen.