If you want help here, you should be a bit more humble. Sounds like you are the one doing the bashing. John helps alot of people here...for free...but I doubt he'll be helping you.

Most of the deck builders here face screw their decking, because we all know from experience that it is the best way.
I build decks for a living, and I can tell you that I'm not gonna be a beta tester for any hidden fastening device. Sounds like you are.
good luck with invisi-fast. My guess is that the manufacturer will be invisible...fast

steve

oh yeah, I forgot...Pro-cell sucks. shoulda bought Ipe

I am on a lot of damm deck sites,belive me I wont be on yours.No need to shout over here ol son. J.

You seemed to have all ready made up your mind. What's your point bud, besides wanting to start trouble with John who happens to help all the folks here? Good luck getting any help.

Al

Wow, I say I don't want worthless responses and what do I get three of them. Pro-cell sucks. real cool. why? oh thats right you deuch bags just like to trash talk anything that you don't support with absolutely no explination. I think T@G Ipe is a big mistake. If you use it you will surely regret it down the road. All sorts of problems will happen to you. Go ahead though, but don't say i didn't warn you.... sound familiar anybody?I see this forum is invaded with pushers so I'll try my luck somewhere else.

Briand
I agree with you. Most of these self-proclaimed contractors such as the ones above give horrible mis-leading advice. John Hyatt literally lives on this forum as well as a few other forums. I'm still wondering how he has time to run a deck business as most of the postings are during weekdays. He's also constantly plugging certain companies and their products--would lead me to believe that he is an employee of East teak or TWP or worse--getting kickbacks from these companies. Maybe I should let my brother know about John Hyatt. He's an auditor for the IRS.

Deckman22 is just John Hyatt's lap dog. Both of these guys are losers! They live on these forum sites for a means of self preservation.

Getting to the point of this post, generally, manufacturers don't produce products that constantly fail. They either attempt to improve the problems or deep six it. Use your best judgement Brian and contact the manufacturer. If you listen to these guys, as I'm sure they probably have mis-installed lots of products in their days, YOU'LL be the one with regrets.

Thanks for the response. I acctually didn't think to call the manufacturer. I will call them on monday and grill them about their product. I just thought since the rest of my deck is going to be plastic then why not have the fastener system be also. I really like Pro-cell. i found that composites have some of the benefits of plastic, but still the downsides of wood (mold, staining..) and I figured i'm either gonna go with a nice wood like ipe or just go no maintenece with plastic. I tracked down a sample of it and man is it hard and stain resistant. I was able to scratch timberteck with my finger nail and I could barely get a scratch on procell with a key. I will agree that ipe might look better, but every person i know who has a wood deck hates the maintenence. Hopefully inisifast will send me a sample. And i will post my results with pics when i'm done. Thanks

Brian,

You've probably heard that you can catch more bees with honey than with salt, yet you come here spreading salt...looking for free advice.
Now you have support from tsloandds, threatening to have us audited by the IRS. To carry my bee analogy another step, that's like hitting a hornets nest with a stick. Your gonna have a bunch of angry hornets looking to sting someone.

Truth be told, I've never built a plastic or composite deck, and never even seen or held pro-cell decking. Never heard of invisi-fast till yesterday. My reply to you was just that of an angry worker bee looking to sting someone.

Online forums are small communities comprised of many different character types (see link below...which one are you?). You must know that, as you said you've been to many. You should learn how to behave when you come by for free advice...oh yeah, and bring some sugar.

steve

Here is a link that might be useful: flame warriors

Ditto what Steve said. If you aren't interested in someone's opinion, just ignore it. Jeez. Your tone makes no one (except for equally hostile posters) want to help you.

That said, I am going to offer some advice regarding your deck. You might want to talk to the Procell people to make sure that the fastener system in question is approved by them (so as to not void your warranty). By the way, they sell their own hidden fastener system. I put a link at the bottom of my post.

Good luck-
Kevin

Here is a link that might be useful: procell hidden fastener

briand,

You don't make the rules here & therefore cannot demand what kind of reponses you want. You reap what you sow on forums like these.

I made no comment on Procell as I've never used it. However I do know it's made in a similar manner as Ameradeck which I'm a big fan of for all the same reasons you stated about Procell. The big difference between the two is the price.

I don't like hidden fasteners because of their high rate of failure. I would never use them on wood, but if a customer wanted them on a composite deck like Ameradeck I would probably do it if they signed a disclaimer.

tsloansdds,

I can't think of one time I gave misleading comments, only my opinions with over 30 years of woodworking experience most of that building decks. I do not work for any company nor do I get kickbacks from any. I will recommend AWDS as I have done business with them since '90 & have received great service from them. I pay the same price there as all the other deckbuilders.

I come here for two reasons, to learn about new products/ building methods & to help those who need it if I can. I've even drawn plans w/instructions for my underdeck drainage system using metal roofing & have faxed it to anyone who asked for free. If the other users of this site feel the same as you two I will no longer post here.

Al

Acutally I recomend TimberTech T&G decking,I have used the earth wood TT with good results so far, square drive ss screws as well as a couple of suppliers,garapa decking,.40 acq material over .25 the box stores sell, modified torch down over the underdeck systems. A person could add these as well as a few others to the list of my potential givers of under the counter pay offs.

Not to worry Al this kind of person would never say things like that to your face, these guys pop up every so often they all say the same thing in fact use the same wording structure and topics when it comes to my habits could be the same folks under different names who knows,and really who cares. Every site has non productive flamers with no real goal in mind but to waste time and stick in a few barbs dont take it personal its just the way they are, like the one person in traffic rush hour that makes it risky for everyone else on the road. J.

Al,
Don't let these bashing lurkers bother you. This tsloan guy is a dentist...he makes a living causing pain (and probably enjoys it). Don't let him be a pain for you.

They'll be gone soon, and we'll still be here. It's just a moment...it's gonna pass.

steve

I've heard mixed reviews on Invisi-Fast. The company that makes them, MM Products, also makes the Bo-Wrench, which is a fine tool (it's for straightening warped decking). But I have heard some reports that the little spacer tabs on this clip can make some decking, especially Procell, squeak. So I might ask that question. I think they recommend you saw off the spacer tabs after installation if squeaking is a problem, but that probably won't be easy.
There are many brands of composite that have similar or better performance than Procell and have their own proprietary, proven HFS systems. One such brand is CorrectDeck CX.

Hmm yea I didn't think of that. I suppose even the slightest up and down rub between the two would sound like an old wooden floor. I think you can buy their product without spacers on them though. Maybe this is the best option to avoid squeeking. I know that correct deck has an outer coating so the wood fibers aren't on the surface, but I would just assume have the whole board have no wood fibers in it.

Mr. John Hyatt and brooklyndecks teaming up against someone again, donÂt feel bad if John calls you a flamer, for months he hounded me about seeing a web page of my husband and mines work on our home to justify me as what he called a "wallet" giving advice. These two guys do have some advice to give but they also put there foot in there mouth on allot of things that they have no experience with as well as what they have so called experience with, and its all to push the companies they want. Which from time to time I have done when some one ask's a question that I have no answer for, I tell them to call a true professional like a supplier of Ipe such as Advantage Trim and Lumber which I have used, also the company that John does push a lot for East Teak (put that in there so John doesnÂt accuse me for working for a company on the opposite coast of the U.S. as me again). John Hyatt and Brooklyn pushed me away from giving advice on this site mainly because they treated me like I didnÂt know what I was talking about due to my inexperience even if my house includes a front T&G porch a back deck and pool deck one of which we used the Ipe Clip Hidden fasteners, but I donÂt have any experience like Mr. Sit at my computer all day and tear people up on forms Hyatt. As you can tell IÂm not a fan of good ol John he seemed to think it was amusing to make fun and demean a stay at home house wife (Must have made him feel like a BIG MAN) But from this forum Ive learned donÂt believe what you read online because you can never tell good advice from the B.S. So my advice to everyone no matter what the question is call the supplier or the manufacture to get the real answers and advice that you are looking for not some hack who with all of there experience and great business deals have nothing better to do but sit online instead of building. Good to hear from you again John and Brooklyn.

One thing about calling vendors. They are never going to say a bad thing about their product.

I agree that you should check them out, get samples if you can, read the installation literature and certainly ask questions. But remember who you are talking too.

Use the forums and hopefully someone with experience with your product can help you.

I would not be the guinea pig with any decking product that does not have some track history that you can verify.

My 2cents.

Mark

Hi Joyce...
Nice to see you again...not.

You keep turning up to spit your venom, but never to give advice, my little cobra. Fortunately, I am immune to your bite.

As usual, you are misinformed. John and I aren't teaming up on anyone. Brian came here with an attitude...it's not good form when looking for free advice.

I don't have to defend my position here. I have never built a deck for anyone posting on the gardenweb. My motives are altruistic, and my advice is from years of experience. My work speaks for itself.

What I'd like to know is why are you lurking here? Are you a cyber-stalker? You should go hang out at www.get-a-life.com

Al,
maybe you're right...why help people, and get bashed for it.
Let the DIYers give each other advice. Let's boycott.

steve
www.urbanexteriors.biz

Nawww I kinda like Joyce sounds like a stand up girl,if in fact joyce54 is a girl ya never know, I think she is and a mighty fine Mom and I belive what She says.

But hon its not ganging up,its info that a few pros agree on cant be helped if we have years of Carpenter stuff under the tool belt and we can look at a new procuct and know the problems that can come with it. Adding in the Fact there are way too many Suits coming up with new deckbuilding gizomos geting with the Ad man and pushing them out there with glossy photos, traping the beliving Wallet into buying them and hateing them later.

As a constant here you know this is true I dont have to list them for you. I respect your beairing and input in no way have I ever or will ever try to keep you away from anything you enjoy including and most of all posting on this site. You go GetEm Girl. J.

Time out. You attackers are doing the exact same thing you are accusing all the fine pros here of doing. At the same time, without any knowledge or documentation, you besmirch legitimate vendor/user relationships as graft and corruption. Have you no shame. I have learned over the past several months how invaluble guidance from others is and what really is important on a day to day basis.John, you can elaborate if you wish.-George @ East Teak

I knew it wouldn't take long for good ol George to surface. I suppose that John called you to the rescue. You're just two peas in a pod!

Most people come here for unbiased advice based on personal experiences--good or bad. What is getting old are these "pros" that are quick to bad mouth products they haven't used or used once, but screwed up the installation.

The bashing will cease when certain people discontinue the flagrant promotion of certain products and the companies that produce them. That includes you George! You just couldn't help but plug yourself and your employer at the end of your last post. Give it a rest!

I commend briand for starting this thread. It's about time people started speaking out against these unscrupulous contractors that live on this forum.

Bravo!

TS with your favorite site being woodworking I wonder if you would mind giving me a call, we can talk over how you like red oak steam bending. My number,address and a map how to get to my place can be found on my site. We probley can meet up and talk about scrupuls as well.

Looking forward to your call. John Hyatt,www.deckmastersllc.com

I find it sad that people feel they have to go on the offensive to hope people will notice them or to feel good about themselves. Cliches like, "sticks and stones", "the golden rule", "catch more w/honey" come to mind. I sincerely wish an inner peace and a belief that there are really good people out there. As the great Forest Gump once said" Thats all I got to say about that" George @ East Teak

No call from the TS so far. All blow and no go kinda person. I cant really blame him or her or it as the case may be the person is geting into the slander range.

You all have a good weekend,keep the beer cold and the gril on a low simmer with the Tbones. John

I hate to get in the middle of all this fun, but I have a similar question that I was hoping to get some advice on. I am in the midst of planning a deck and unfortunately don't have the budget for more expensive materials and plan on using pt lumber. I was hoping to spend the extra time and money necessary to install an invisible deck fasting system. I have looked into several products (ie. Shadoe Track, Tiger Claw and Invisi Fast)but have been unable to find any reviews or forums that speak to the success / failure of any of these products with regards to pt decking. Has anyone had any experience with any of these products or any other similar product? Or is the statement from deckman22 true "I don't like hidden fasteners because of their high rate of failure. I would never use them on wood..."???

If the only good option is to fasten through the face of the board is their any benefit to counter sinking the screws - less splinters and splitting?

Thanks in advance.

I don't know a thing about this subject but I know a forum that is a waste of time. Where is the moderator here? If there is one he must be asleep. I have been burned on the furniture forum too, just for asking a question about on-line furniture stores. I guess the Garden-Web forums are not that useful unless one can trust the advice and get to a consensus.

Hey Cl, it might seem a little clubly sometimes but all together a lot of Folks get a Lot of Help over here and escape problems,real problems, down the road.

Far as the moderator goes,your talking to Him, sad but true. This is a self controled site.

PT lumber has way too much movement to use hidden fasteners like the clips or the L metal. Its the nature of pt pine,like we use over here, or hemfir thats used in the NW. No matter how you fasten pt lumber or finish it the result is the same exposed to the sun it is going to split/crack/splinter and generley through a fit like a 2 year old in a very short time.

Face fastining can handle that movement with pt lumber the clips/L metal can not.

And then there is the Money...... If you went to the expense to install any of the fasteners your talking about and actually did it, the cost labor/material would be about 1/3 higher than face fastened Garapa from East Teak installed.

Far as you go nerd person, get that green/red stuff out of your hair, take that ring out of your nose and tounge and get a real job. Jon Mon Yucking it up.

Clausy,
You didn't get in the middle of it...we had this fun 2 years ago. Our opinions are the same. Pressure treated pine is not a good choice for decking, and hidden fasteners still suck, especially with ACQ, as that stuff will shrink and warp when the sun shines on it...and those hidden fasteners won't hold it down.

Nerdy,

You read thru this entire tread, and determined that the forum was a waste of time? So you decided to add your informative post about a subject that you admittedly know nothing about...thanks for wasting my time.

steve (I'm a moderator too)

Gentlemen-

Thanks for the info - I will be sure to look into Garapa? I was afraid of what you were going to say about pt lumber. I think I already knew the answer to my question but just needed to hear it from someone else - thanks again.

The thought of moderating this forum seems like an impossibility??? The way I look at, if someone wants to get rid of a little tension or voice an opinion so be it. I don't see the harm in it and find it quit easy to ignore and move on. This is the first time I have been involved with a forum and while this particular chain of postings seems to have gone off on other tangents I noticed that there is still a sprinkle of usefull information here and there... if you look for it. I will continue to be apart of this forum. I am a do-it-yourselfer and always seem to have a project on the go or perhaps several projects on the go and always seem to have a question I can't find the answer to and learn the hard way or just need to talk something through with someone. More than likely I will have more question along the way as I tackle this deck project and hopefully I will be able to return the favour some day and share some helpfull information with someone else.

Cheers.

Hey guys, these plastic clip systems are getting old and just aren't the best solution for hidden deck fasteners for any type of wood. Especially in extreme changing climates. My suggestion is the cheaper solution. CAMO Hidden Deck Fasteners is the best...they are much cheaper, you get an awesome tool to do your spacing, hold your screws and help you counter sink them at perfect toenailing angles.

Here is a link that might be useful: The best place to buy CAMO hidden fasteners online.

Matt,

Thanks for bringing back this gem of a tread...It's good for a few yucks every couple of years.

What sucks though, is that you dredged up this thread to advertise your product.

steve

He is over on Contractor Talk as well.

Strated just today. Everyone has to make a buck.

J.