I will attempt to help but will let more knowledgeable people answer this one but that does not look anywhere close to correct. Why D. Fir and no pressure treated? What size are those "joists" they look awful small? Is the ledger bolted as it should be or nailed as it appears? Your correct, where is the flashing? What is beneath the T1-11 siding as that does not look right? Why are we seeing what appears to be housewrap" at the corner?Is there a foundation as that looks similar to trusses below the T1-11 siding? 2x4 roof rafters over a porch? Is this guy serious with your project, not sure we really want to see the balance of the project?

Hi Millworkman,

Thanks for replying. Our builder says the Douglas Fir is treated. We had hoped they would have talked to us before they threw what they did up, as we thought it would be smart to paint to do something to the wood before it went in. The joists are 2x6. The ledger has two bolts and a bunch of nails between each joist, going into the house. We do not know if they are hitting house joists, studs, or just going into the siding (which is T111 over old single wall 3/4" T & G. The siding has house wrap under it. The foundation is post and pier and I guess what shows are braces. Yes, the roof is very old, circa 1940. It is old fashioned 2x4s as in really 2" thick. The builder has sistered some, and is intending to extend the roof over the deck using the same 2x4 construction. Is this bad? I have had the drawings into the Maui County permit office and they are approved, so I am hopeful this is right. We think our guy knows how ignorant we are to building. I have been trying my best to read but he has an answer (usually a good-sounding one) for all of my concerns. However, I thought I'd post what is going on here as there seem to be some really helpful, smart, and experienced people here. My hope was we could show whatever replies we get to our builder, so as to have some help/support. It has been quite stressful for us.

The photo here shows the 4x4 posts holding it up. I don't understand why they are so off-center, especially the nearest one, which looks like it could fall off the concrete footing. Also, the 4x4s seem so much flimsier than 6x6s. I had no problem buying any material he wanted. I don't know why he didn't go with the better wood. I also am reading in many places about IPE wood. My wife and I today went to look at it at Maui Laminates. It is $5/board foot. We wonder (to ourselves) if we should ask our guy to not use the Fir but use this for any exposed deck floor. I was looking at water membranes for joists too.

Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate your help. Aloha, John

I'd need more photos to completely assess it, but below is a link to a good resource on deck building to code that you can use as a reference.

Here is a link that might be useful: Deck building guide

It just seems like a lot of nails and sloppy too. Not very nice-looking, but maybe this is correct?

Just because the permit was approved doesn't mean the builder will do it correctly.
Me, I either call in the inspector or hire an independent inspector. I agree with all the red flags millworkman mentioned..............

The photos already posted are just for the back decks. The carport hasn't been started yet. I am posting this thread to avert more issues. I have already written builder asking about 6x6 posts and ledger flashing. My main concern is how we are very much controlled by builder not the other way around. This happened, much to our dismay, after we agreed to hire him and he said his father would handle all drafting and permitting. (We had paid a draftsman to do our plans, but the builder had his dad redo them and we figured may as well let the two work together.) NOw, we are at their mercy and his father's whim. We have considerable $s invested in this renovation ($80k so far) and 1/2 of this deck job prepaid, all deck materials prepaid, and the exterior building envelope portion of job 3/4 prepaid with much to be done. So, we are horrified if we question him (as we have in past) and he gets miffed (which he has) that he will just walk away and leave us with little recourse. It has been very give and take and so we keep hoping. I know we are fools. He is our 4th builder in as many months. It is very frustrating and difficult to find help for this small job out here.

This is a wider angled shot showing the two rear decks. We had to stop work to wait for permanent permit (temporary permit was okay to a point). So, for a month this has been exposed to the elements. There are three huge stacks of lumber. When we had to stop work for the county to finalize our permit, our builder took off for a week's vacation and the wood was sitting unprotected. We asked him to cover it and he did, but only after we asked. This was all a red flag for us. We have been pretty petrified since.

First off I have never heard of Pressure Treated Doug Fir (does not exist from what I know), Southern Yellow Pine is what 99% of the decks I have seen built have been framed from. 2X6's seem a little light for joists and the ledger should not be nailed but thru bolted in more than 2 spots (hopefully with carriage bolts). I would certainly expect a deck at that height to be 6x6 posts not 4x4's but that may just be me. The current 4x4 posts, how are they attached to the concrete piers? From the picture some appear to be on post anchors and some do not? Just because the building dept approves plans does not mean they are going to be correct structurally (they are not engineers). Personally I do not like the looks of much that he has done and this may only be my opinion but you may want to get someone else who knows what they are looking at to take a look. Plus the fact that your on 4th builder makes me really nervous for you.

I don't understand why you are at their mercy and his father's whim.....you're the one controlling the money.
Why have you prepaid so much $$ vs paying as each job is completed. Did you sign a contract stating you would do so?

We lived in Hawaii years ago and heard all the stories about how how difficult and how expensive it is to build there. Talk to your neighbors, architects, decorators, anyone you can think of and ask for referrals of general contractors. If the situation isn't controlled soon you'll end up paying even more trying to correct all the problems.

When he gets miffed and walks...I'd tell him to keep walking. Your biggest problem though is that he's got so much up front money. Hopefully your contract will help you get some of it back.............

This post was edited by annz on Wed, Jul 31, 13 at 12:40

We do have Doug fir pressure treated up here in Canada, however I have never seen pressure treated material that looks like what you have.

I would get rid of the guy now. I know you don't have snow loads in Hawaii but that construction wouldn't pass code or anywhere near it here. 2x8's minimum for any deck with egress from a dwelling or greater than 24" above grade. A minimum of fastener bolts 32" on centre into the dwellings rim joist or wall studs.

All joists must have joist hangers, no toe nailing, ever. The load is supported by 4 nails???

For 19k I can build you a pressure treated deck the Rolling Stones can perform on.

I'm not overly concerned with the offset footings, just more poor attention to detail.

In my next life I think I'll build decks in Hawaii.

I would never pay for anything not done. I hope you can fire the guy.

Pressure treated doug fir is standard on the west coast...BUT... that's not pressure treated wood!

Maybe the builder meant he took the pile of lumber out to lunch, and "treated" by paying the check.

Tell him that's not going to fly. Based on the fact that all the wood is wrong, make him tear it out and go away.

Draw plans for a sturdier deck, 6x6 posts, 2x10 joists, and include sectional details for the ledger attachment with flashing. The pressure treated wood should have .40 pcf of chemical treatment. The tag on the end of each board has the information.

Push the permit through plan check and hire another builder.

A lot of good questions being asked, and also I am posting copy of lumber bill which shows the wood names. I also called wood co (Miyake) and the manager told me for sure it is 'treated". Now I am horrified as everyone is saying it is not! Letme try to answer all of the above questions:

1. Posted by millworkman (millwork4u@gmail.com) on
Wed, Jul 31, 13 at 8:25:

a) "The current 4x4 posts, how are they attached to the concrete piers? From the picture some appear to be on post anchors and some do not? "

There are poured concrete piers with metal connectors on some, and smaller prefabbed piers with metal straps that I think are nailed on.

b) "Plus the fact that your on 4th builder makes me really nervous for you."

I should really clarify this more accurately as it is an exaggeration: First 'builder': we hired our first one-man-band carpenter and he was really trying to talk us out of permitting the work. He got really freaked out about the county inspecting his work. So, we agreed to call it quits. He never did any actual work. Just came and left after three meetings. Second 'builder': was a team of four 20-somethings who replied to a CL ad we ran. They demoed the house but the lead person got really upset when we asked her why she wasn't doing things to code. She abruptly quit when we showed her pictures of how the piers under the house should not be set on old rocks, as they were originally in 1940 when the cottage was first built. We were devastated as we liked her and put our eggs in her basket. We never saw the anger coming. It really shook us up. Third 'builder': was a very nice but quite old California guy who had once been a GC and I guess was having to swing a hammer to make a living. He took three days, at $300/day, to replace only a few posts under the house. We could tell he was going to be very slow and realized, after we had gotten some bids to replace entire foundation, that we needed more of a crew. We still like him and may hire him to help sheetrock and finish, but felt this was too much for him. Our current/fourth 'builder': was referred to us by a local architect who I found via Google who said this guy was a 'real craftsman' who would completely replace our existing 700 sf cottage with a completely new build for $90/sf. We were excited about him and he seemed very nice. When we first met him he showed up in a Lexus. We were concerned that he was a manager not a worker and we told him we didn't have the $s to pay a guy in a fancy truck with a clipboard, and that we wanted our hard-earned $s to go straight to the guys doing the hammering. He assured us he was a worker and after we hired him he has never swung a hammer since, and has played GC instead. My wife thinks we are more our own GC as he has let so much slide that we have caught, like this deck thing that you have all helped us with (many thanks, again).

2. Posted by annz 8 (My Page) on Wed, Jul 31, 13 at 12:31

a) "I don't understand why you are at their mercy and his father's whim.....you're the one controlling the money.
Why have you prepaid so much $$ vs paying as each job is completed. Did you sign a contract stating you would do so?"

The short answer is we have been here 25+ years and publish a small golf guide. In that time, we have had good/bad experiences with providers of all kinds. One thing we have always prided ourselves in is being fast, honest payers - especially when it comes to worker bees, like us. Anyway, this builder seemingly gave us good prices, and laid out a payment plan for two big jobs: the $28k (labor) building env and the $25K decking/carport ($6k was for concrete, which is now cracking everywhere). The building env was the first job started. He wanted $7k upfront. We were leery so we agreed on $5k. He said he needed this as goodwill and bc he doesn't finance projects. Never having done this, we didn't think $5k as a deposit for good faith was bad. The terms called for stages to be completed before releasing next payments. We didn't like the staging as it seemed we were always way ahead of the curve in making payments, but those were his terms and we needed to totally gut this house and Allstate had cancelled our policy when they saw it demoed. So, we had our own fear of the place burning down, uninsured, to push us to move fast. He seemed to be the right guy in the right place. The deck job came second when we realized that we needed more space and we were actually quite excited to have the house moving along at all. It is far batter now than it was originally! The decking was to essentially be a step toward increasing house sq footage but in phases. He bragged to us the structural work he has done on decks (shown in this pix) is 50 PSI vs code for interior structural which is 40PSI, and that we can make the back deck and carport (yet to be started) into a bigger LR and new kitchen (carport). Once we had paid $21K to do the first three steps of building env, the finishing of roof and siding and gable was all that was left. They started the decks (what you see now) when the county put work on hold to approve changes to plans. When they did that, the builder asked for 50% of the deck money. We wanted to motivate him by paying fast and early so we never suspected anything fishy and gave him the $s. Then, he took off with our money for a Kauai and got nasty with us and we have been terrified ever since. He has blamed the county for the permit delay when all the while we were ourselves sitting at the permit dept plans reviewer's desk while she was telling us they (son and father) had dropped the ball for weeks. We had paid $6k for material and $8k for the labor, which is how things stand now. He (builder) also did a slick move on us, that we didn't catch until we poured out all our money: he make material and labor all one big quote for the decks. In past, we estimated material and we paid labor. This time, he made material and labor all one price for the decks so he has ever reason to cut on material quality. We didn't 'get' it until job was already in progress. Cinfronting him means we'd lose prepaid labor on envelope and deck! That is why they have us over a barrel. Further: the builder is a gun-toting red neck who kills animals and skins them on his free time. He advertises on CL he will come on people's land to do this to eradicate boars, etc. We think he is so horrifying he will haunt us and terrorize us and burn our house down if I write what I really think of him in a blog, etc. I have no recourse. It is a small island and while coconut wireless can hurt a reputation, the sword cuts both ways and if I trash him he could really make our lives Hell. So, we are here on this forum trying to hash this out.

3. Posted by SouthernCanuck (My Page) on Thu, Aug 1, 13 at 5:11

a) The load is supported by 4 nails???

I'm not exactly sure if that photo shows the whole picture. I will shoot the other side of it and show you Canuck. I think there must be some kind of galvanized metal brace. I hope....

5. Posted by aidan_m (My Page) on Thu, Aug 1, 13 at 11:21

a) "Pressure treated doug fir is standard on the west coast...BUT... that's not pressure treated wood! "

God aidan_m: are you sure? I spoke to Brice, the manager of Miyake, and he told me it was pressure treated. It says so on bill/quote too (see pic in this post).

The Maui Cty plans review lady signed off on our plans and she was last department. The front office finalizes so we should have permit in few days. We can't get a refund as we suspect this guy is living off of our money and is probably expecting more of our $s to complete this job and pay his guys. We feel like hostages to this job and builder and after seeing the IBC PDF that weedyacres (thanks for that) linked here for us, we know the siding shold have been removed prior to the ledger being attached, with flashing which it doesn't have, plus all the new suggestions you all have given us, means we have to confront him and we worry the ledger will never go back on right, we will lose all the lumber he has used as he has no $s, and he owes us a lot in undone labor we have prepaid, not to mention I potentially have to pay a 25% restocking fee for $6k lumber (maybe?). How to handle him to get this fixed, get what we paid him for out of him, get a release from him and get him away is where we are right now.

We have emailed him about the lack of flashing, and the use of 4x4s, asking what his plan is and if he can use 6x6s. This was two days ago no reply. We called yesterday and today: no reply. So, we are a bit horrified.

Well, some good news today. Brice at Miyake said for sure the Fir is pressure-treated. I have attached his reply to my email to him verifying.

If I read your lumber bill correctly you have Hi-bor T treated lumber. If that is what your grade stamp states the you may need perhaps may need to ask him to explain this! This is not what any of us mean by treated lumber if this is truly what you have.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hi-bor T Treated Lumber

I'm really bummed now. I read the Hi-bor T notice you posted (thanks for that, BTW :-), and it does state that foundation, joists, subfloors are to be built with this and if it is outdoors it needs to be above final grade and waterproofed or waterproof-painted. Is this incorrect? What other pressure treated lumber is there here that you might be referring to?

To me it reads INTERIOR ONLY and anything exterior that is exposed must be completely protected and covered at all times. Tell me how your deck framing is not going to get wet?

Decay resistant to termites and or ground contact, pressure treated (used to be called CCA in this area now another name that escapes me at the moment) southern yellow pine normally around here is commonly used as deck and or exterior framing.

Our standard PT lumber is treated with ACQ. It seems that the Hi Bor Pressure treated lumber is something used in Hawaii. It is designed to resist aggressive termite colonies, something Hawaii has to deal with, the rest of the US does not have the same kind of termites. The borate pressure treated wood is ONLY good for resisting termites. It's designed to be used as framing lumber for first floors of wooden stick-framed buildings. It must be finished and covered from the weather, just like regular Doug Fir.

Here is a link that might be useful: ACQ pressure treated

Yes adain that was how I read it as well, and it is certainly not designed for deck framing.

See page 2 of the product guide for Hi-Bor pressure treated wood. It states:

"Hi Bor brand Borate pressure treated wood products should not be used for decks or other outdoor structures exposed to weathering"

This means the wood is not suitable for the current project. It would be fine, however, if you were going to enclose the deck right now, as you have stated you plan to do in the near future.

Because the contractor knows you eventually plan to enclose the porch into a living room, this may be his excuse for using the borate treated wood, and not real pressure treated. There are other reasons to NOT use real PT wood.

One is the structural strength is significantly reduced. You can not substitute a PT timber for a No.2 structural one, and maintain the same load calculations.

The other reason to not use PT on an enclosed interior space is the offgassing of chemicals.

Your contractor may be doing the "best" thing, but only if he can explain the reasoning behind his decisions. It's his job to help you understand why he does what he does. Same thing goes for the lumber supplier. The way they are just arguing bluntly, "Of course it is pressure treated, only an inexperienced person would think otherwise," is evidence that THEY are the people lacking experience. Otherwise THEY would be the ones educating you about all the different kinds of pressure treated wood products, and the correct application for each. As it stands, they have shown they know next to nothing about the wood they are selling.

It's the people on this forum who know and have the experience. And I can say that I learned something about borate treated wood today.

Good luck with all this. Keep us posted.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hi-Bor Product information

O'cat:
I can't add much to the above about how the guy's not building to code and with proper materials. The fact that someone approved it or it passed inspection doesn't change that. I see decks all the time here, even in Parade of Homes done by established builders, that don't meet code.

It's a tough dilemma when you've already paid the guy a chunk of money, but it doesn't sound like he's going to build you a good deck regardless. There are hordes of people who stuck with a bad contractor because they held out way too much hope that things would work out in the end, and they didn't. I fear this will go the same way: you'll end up having to pay someone else to tear it out and build it properly, with proper materials. As painful as it is to lose the $14K (less what you can get back for the wood), that beats losing $19K. Cut your losses.

Tell Brice that the wood is Borate treated, not pressure treated, show him the Hi-Bor product data sheet, explain what ACQ pressure treated wood is.

If you think there's any chance of the builder listening to reason (or reading code and admitting he didn't know something), then schedule a meeting with him, sit down, go through the guide I linked, and point out all the places he's not meeting basic code. The more educated you are the more you can cut through his BS and stand up to him. If he shows signs of being teachable and willing to redo it right, then keep him. If he makes excuses, puts down your knowledge, or tries to talk you out of it, then dump him. Fast. And file in small claims court to get your money back.

BTW, make sure whoever builds your deck uses the right fasteners with ACQ wood. Info in the link below.

And remember for future reference: paying someone before work is done does not motivate them to finish it quickly. It motivates them to take a vacation on your dime. Paying them quickly after each step is complete motivates them to work hard on the next step.

Here is a link that might be useful: ACQ info for Brice and builder

All the above information is sound. I only know how it would be built on the mainland.

Yes the deck should be flashed to the house. Since the t1-11 has groves in it, it is very difficult to flash properly. I would have cut a strip of t1-11 out, slid 1.5" inch z flashing up under the siding and then applied ledger.

The ledger should be be bolted to the house rim board and through bolted.

2x6 is not wide enough for use with Simson connectors. Metal connectors should be used everywhere he has toe nailed. They toe nailed the end joist because they did not have the correct bracket. The correct bracket must be placed BEFORE the joist is set in place.

Doug fir is a great wood. It will last a long time but precautions need to be made. Before the deck is laid, I would cover the tops with Vycor deck wrap. At the vey least I would staple 1.5" strips of 30# felt on top of joists. This is where the joists will fail. Dirt and leaves will accumulate between deck boards and hold moisture causing rot.

4x4s spaced on 4' centers will hold but I would have gone with 6x6. I can't see how posts are fastened to piers.

He doesn't have railings in but their installation is critical too.

fYI next time have the t1-11 painted both sides before installing. It will increase life considerably.

The correct Simpson bracket for end joists is LUC concealed flange joist hanger. I'm not sure how to post URL from my iPad.

Interested to see how this turned out but it appears we may have lost the op.

Sorry millwork4u and marven and aidan_m and weedyacres: we have not been back for a spell trying to deal with everyone's input and our builder, who was away on Kauai while we waited for our permit changes to be approved. (Long story short: our cottage was bought by us and it was termite-infested. We tried to remove and replace bad wood ourselves but it was way beyond us. We tried numerous carpenters and others who were called builders. We knew we needed better help and hired a draftsman. He was unable to back up his own work when we asked him things like: will this roof be safe? Instead, always deferring us to 'your structural engineer', as though we had one, which we did not. We hired one and he was very shady and would not give us a firm estimate for his services, instead taking $100 cash from my wife when she met him at the property and disappearing never to return calls/emails. Frustrated with draftsman, I called several local architects I found in online yellow pages and one told me to contact my current builder. I did this and he proposed a builder/design 'package' where his father was draftsman and he builder. We visited one of his job sites and spoke to two of his references. He seemed earnest, young, willing to get his hands dirty, and affordable. He told us he had a HI contractor's license but to save us $s he'd knock 15% off the job if we were owner/builder instead of 'putting job on his license'. He poo poo'd the license thing as a technicality and we were too ignorant to know better. Since then we have discovered how stupid we are. In any event, he proposed a building envelope solution including rebuilding all decks, stairs, reframing house as 'double-wall' (was single-wall), new roof, new foundation, doors, windows, siding and paint: $28k labor + materials. It sounded reasonable to us.

The photos shown in above threads are of the cottage after it was sided and windows/doors put in. The decking is a combination of a replacement of the old and some new.

Since we first started with this builder things were weird. He took our money and then didn't show up for work until several days after he told us he would. He didn't do work, like he said he would, and instead hired it out to two other guys. He was never really on the job site much. But, the tear-down condition cottage was being transformed.

The problems are many. He never shows up when he says he will and the word is done when we least expect it. Interior framing done in like a day with no discussion about the plans. Things that we could not easily change were hastily done without telling us in advance. The lack of flashing on the deck ledgers is an example of this.

The first post or query about this man's work we have ever done is this thread. By the time I had posted it, we had agreed to expand the job from the original $28k to $53k to $59k. This was all done as progression after we saw one thing we'd add another. We agreed to almost all of this before I made this thread.

Both my wife and I were unhappy with this man's 'bedside manner' but we didn't (and don't) think he is a vindictive or nasty person. Immature, a bit of a cheat, a liar yes. We have had our rage over his lack of communication and failure to meet expectations, but having had such difficulty even finding people who will do a day's work at all on this island has not been easy. One builder friend of ours, who is retired, warned us that "all contractors are thieves". We knew going into this there would be bumps, and there are many.

Fast-forwarding to now. The wood supplier, Miyake Concrete, insists the hi-bor is pressure-treated and correct for our deck. I have read the PDF and see where it states the exact opposite.

Our permit came though just over a week ago. Our builder was totally MIA the whole five weeks we had to stop work. We were furious that in all that time he could not spend any with us to plan. So, he is back on property rushing, laying off for days on end, then rushing again.

My wife and I tried a new tactic when he met us the Saturday before the Monday he was to begin work, two weeks ago. She wanted to ask him about the workmanship that all of you have so kindly told us was not so hot.

She told me to shut up and play the nice guy, so that she could press him and if he freaked out, it was my job to keep him from walking.

Because he has our job structured in three phases, with some things done to varying degrees on each, and payments and material invested in all, it is very difficult for us to delineate where we stand and just 'stop' and fire him. I guess that's the reason for my long-winded post right now. For context.

In any event: we were trying to put the screws to him about his work quality and material choice, while at the same time keep things from getting too nasty as we don't have an easy way to unravel this. (We estimate another two weeks before the house is enclosed and we are able to get a final bill and lien release.)

Well it didn't go too well. When asked about the lack of flashing he told us much would be under roof and that flashing wasn't required. We read a PDF on deck building from decks.com that showed flashing as IBC required. Also, we read that 6x6 posts were required. He told us there was more than one way to build a deck and that he chose the method he had done and that he was insulted at my wife questioning him. She asked him if that meant she should just shut up and he backed own, but I have to confess it wasn't a good feeling sitting there as this guy told my wife how wrong she was for asking him about his work.

When she pointed out the way the beams were nailed together he asked her, sarcastically, if she was complaining about the 'toenailing', and said this was common practice. In short, everything everyone said here he told us was wrong.

We felt like to wet poodles after that meeting. We did not want to print this post out and throw it in his face because, honestly, we are afraid he will leave us with a yard full of lumber and a job 3/4 finished and no easy replacement help in sight.

The predators will smell blood if we try to replace him, we think.

Meanwhile, the work has continued and there is talk that he will put "L" flashing on the exposed part of the deck. We have paid him to enclose the other part of the deck, so it won't get ruined as a result of the lack of flashing there, we hope. (The enclosure is what we always wanted. He is doing it cheaply, and while we hate giving him and his father more of our money, his father redid the drawings and brought them into the county, and he has done the work seemingly well, although while abusing us in the process.)

We just don't know what to do. On one hand, this are getting done and seem to look okay, on the other, it is a horrible relationship and the quality of the work we just don't know. You all have given us your best insights. We have tried to discuss them with our contractor.

He has slapped me the entire way, and I am hardly proud of it. I just don't know what else to do but to get his portion of the job done asap and be rid of him.

Yes, I know we gave him more work. My wife and I both hated to do it. But we would have wasted all the material and money for labor to put in railings and arbor in place of walls and roof. It was a difficult call.

Fire him, you will end up paying twice regardless and be fortunate if no one gets killed by his incompetence and extremely fortunate if the only problem you have is the house rots out in 10 years. And getting a permit is one thing bur getting a certificate of occupancy and being allowed to live in your home is another. He has lied, vanished, proven his incompetence and yet you continue to reward him by employing and paying him, why?

I still don't understand why you haven't brought in an inspector. You have permits...isn't each phase being inspected? If not, go out and hire an independent inspector.

You've deluded yourself into believing you're saving money but I'm afraid you're going to lose big time. A good contractor is not difficult to find, even on Maui, and yes, their fees would be higher than what this guy is charging, but by the time your current contractor finishes, you will have lost much more than you would have ever paid a qualified contractor.

Like I write previous your going to lose some money and pay to have things done twice, it is now up to you to decide were you draw the line in the sand.