I think I'm with your DH on this one, although it's hard for me to imagine how or why the pantry would be too deep. You wouldn't be making the shelves any deeper, you would just be moving them back 6 inches, right? While 13" of counter isn't a whole lot, it is enough to put a bottle or 2 of wine or stir up some cocktails. I think it would look better being even the whole way across. Just my $.02

Thanks controlfreakecs. I would NOT make the pantry shelves deeper, just move them back 6". I was just wondering if that space in there would be awkward to move around as it's pretty tight in there as it is. But it's not like I'm going to be doing the tango in my pantry!

That 13" of counterspace plus 1.5" for overhang will be so great to have!!

I'm with your dh on this one, too. If you want storage above on the dining room side that backs into the pantry, I'd do it framed/inset into the drywall without having the counter go back there.

I'm a little confused but then I'm extremely tired. I think I'm agreeing with Rhome but not sure. I was thinking what if you framed inset niches on the D/R side with that extra 6'. Like display niches? Too narrow? Waaayyyyy too tired.

I think I'm not being clear. There will be a counter running the length of the DR side regardless. Here are the options I can think of:

1. Base cabs, counter and uppers are the same across the entire 78" wall behind pantry and fridge. Counters are 13" deep all the way.

2. Base cabs and counter are 6" deeper for the 38" behind pantry than for the 40" behind the fridge, like in my drawing above. Upper cabs across there set back against the wall. Counter top is 19" deep in this area and then changes to 13" behind the fridge.

Inset shelves are a good idea for #2, but they would only be 6" deep.

Which option? Or does anybody have another idea? I'm horribly tired myself.

OK.... I think I'm getting it. SO sorry I'm so thick . What if, (and please pleasee forgive if this is lame and again misinterperted) on the section that is 19" deep you had 6" depth uppers that came down to the counter in that section so the entire area would actually end up with 13" deep counters. Now what the heck you'd do with 6" deep uppers is absolutely beyond me so why did I suggest them?... dunno

Oh...I wasn't getting the point about uppers. Will you be able to use any of the counter very well with equally deep uppers above? Will they be at standard height above the counter? Won't it be hard to see what's on the counter with cabinets that are at face level?

Enough questions? ;-)

Remodelfla--interesting idea with shelves to the counter. It would be a nice look, but you're right. What would I put in there?

Display plate on plate hangers? Maybe a collection of small pieces of crystal somethings? OOOhHHH pieces of quartz rock in different colora and you can downlight inside the cabs. Exhaustion overtakes me...nitey nite!

LOL Remodelfla!

Rhome--I think I confused you again. I meant that the uppers would be 12" there, not deeper behind the pantry. So 12" uppers the whole way, even though the counter and base would be deeper. That was my initial thought. dH was talking about a small bar sink there at one point so that's maybe why I was thinking like that. Maybe it would look stupid and I should just go with Option 1 and give those 6" to the pantry!

Hmm, overall, I'm also with DH, but for the reason that from a construction standpoint, it's going to be a lot simpler if the wall behind the pantry/fridge is straight. Meaning there are no insets or depth variations to deal with. And FWIW, I don't think that extra 6" in the pantry will make it awkward at all.

[I think part of the confusion is that your original post said pantry and OVEN, when it's actually FRIDGE! right?! Had to read it a couple times to be sure. Tired here too :) ]

Hi Breezy,

You've probably already ruled this out, or it won't work, but have you considered a counter depth fridge and having the deeper DR cabinet/counter all across? I'll have the same DR-kitchen counter...and I'm so excited! Working on the perfect buffet surface. What are you putting in there?

Isle--yeah, I'm starting to lean that way too. Sorry about the confusion. I've been getting about 5 hours of sleep over the past few weeks with this and toddler sleeping issues. I'm starting to get rummy!

Hi ca_mom. I had considered a counter depth, but not deepening the DR counter with it. Originally I had the ovens on the peninsula. When I switched them with the fridge, my peninsula shrank in length to accommodate the wider fridge. We entertain a lot and I need a big buffet space. When I drew a counter-depth fridge in, the peninsula wasn't big enough so I tried a standard fridge. That gave me more space for buffet. Plus, I need as much fridge space as I can get. I'm not sure I want a whole lot more counter space in DR. I really appreciate you giving me your input! No thought isn't worth sharing. That sounded horrible, but I think you known what I mean!

Like this?

Yes! That was my idea. Seeing it though makes me agree wih DH that it should be uniform down the whole line. 12" uppers and 13" base all the way. Add the 6" to the pantry. Will the pantry space be awkward with that extra space? I'm probably over thinking this too.

Will the uppers facing the dining room have glass doors?

Would you want a hutch idea or cabs on the counter in that area so that the deeper area looks intentional?

The middle part could have doors that open with a mixing station there. (Isn't cocktail mixing one of those zones to have?)

If the cabs are 6" deeper there, that means more room for booze.

I still don't know how you'll get any use out of the counters with std height uppers almost even with the bases? (that's why the guy is in the renderings so you can see what an average ht person looks like and how he might view/not be able to view the counter without stooping to look under the upper cab. Have you mocked this up to see how you like it?)

Edie--I was thinking that the uppers with glasses would have glass doors, but maybe the one with booze should be a wood door. I don't want to look like a total booze hound! My brain wheels are turning again! Now you've got me thinking about having that area inset. 38" long inset area behind the pantry with counter 19"+1.5" overhang. A 12" upper there should still leave some counter in front and not be so "in your face" like Rhome is concerned with. I could also have it raised a bit higher off the counter to give a bit more clearance. I'd have to decide what to do with the 40" long area behind the fridge. Yes, I think cocktails should be a GW-approved zone! ;)

Rhome--you have a good point. I've thought about that only briefly, but was hoping that it would be good enough to plunk some drinks on and then let guests fend for themselves. How about if I raise the uppers higher than normal? Would that look weird? Or do you have another idea to still get storage and have a somewhat usable counter?

What about making the uppers behind the fridge only 8 or 9" deep? That would still give you 14-15" behind the pantry.

Room for two rows of glasses and would look more like party and less like peanut butter and jelly storage.

Another idea: Make the area behind the pantry a hutch or cab going all the way down to the counter and have no uppers behind fridge.

The hutch could have glass doors on top for glasses, a middle section with wood doors for bottles and underneath the counter, a sliding "bread board" for mixing.

The drawers below could hold bar accessories, tablecloths and platters for entertaining.

Would the extra storage in hutch make up for the loss of the uppers?

2 good ideas from Edie. Which one is better depends on if you're willing to give up part of the counter, which I'm thinking you wouldn't prefer. But making the cabinets behind the fridge shallower and insetting the one behind the pantry is what I had in mind.

Edie--I'll have to assess my storage back there with what you're describing, but I like the sound of the hutch you're describing. I'll draw it up too as that helps me think. Thanks for the great ideas and sticking with me here!

Rhome--thank you for taking the time to do these renderings for me. Seeing them brings out any potential flaws that I can't see on my graph
paper. How deep would the inset shelves be? And you mean open shelves without doors, right? (I worry about dust issues if open.) Is there anyway you can show me what you mean? I think I know, but want to make sure. Can your software do that? Thank you so so much!

No, I meant shallow cabinets that all look the same, but the ones behind the fridge would be just deep enough for a row of glasses, and the ones behind the pantry would be deeper...They'd just all flush out even in the front and leave more exposed counter than the ones above.

Previously I discussed open, inset shelves, but from what you're saying here, it doesn't sound like they'd meet your needs.

OK, I see. That would look nice having the uppers flush, but having extra counter depth behind the pantry. Wait, your idea is to leave the extra depth there, right?

This can only be accomplished with custom cabs so the estimate I'm expecting from the cab maker better be a good one! Thanks!

Ok. Last thought for the night. You have a very deep cab above the fridge. Making it shallower on the kitchen side would give you more depth on the dining room side. It's high up there, but maybe for infrequently used items?

I'm sure I could steel some space from above the fridge in the back. A 36" deep over-the-fridge cabinet is too deep to use completely from the front. Making a cab like that might be tricky, but we'll see. I just got the custom cab makers quote (gulp) and am waiting to get the Diamond quote which should also be today.

I mocked up the 38" wide area behind the pantry that would be 19" deep plus overhang. I have to say that's a nice size counter for beverage service. Large enough for an ice bucket if necessary, a couple of bottles of wine, a pitcher of rosemary lemonade and some glasses. I'm not sure what to do with that upper there, but the counter area would be nice to have.

Why even have an upper there? What a great place to display your artwork. New Orleans trumpet man, maybe?

Looking at rhome's great drawings, I am leaning toward the idea of leaving the 6" on the DR side, and putting a hutch to the counter there, and no upper behind the fridge. I would look into a deep drawer, possibly with a lock, for booze, and put glassware in the hutch. I little drawer at the bottom of the hutch would be perfect for things like bottle openers, corkscrews, little stirrers, etc. Agree that the wall without upper would be perfect for artwork.

I really am not a fan of the upper behind the fridge either. Something about those next to the peninsula that seems abrupt. Just make sure if you do a 'to the counter' cabinet behind the serving space that you won't need to open the counterheight part when you also have food or beverages on the counter. In other words, make a separate drawer or door at the bottom and keep things that you won't need to grab during the party.

I don't like the visual of a tiny little upper behind the fridge either. Thanks for calling that to my attention Control, Kellie, and Rhome. No upper. I think the wall behind the fridge would be a nice feature wall for art. Maybe Trumpet Man, and I could find him some friends so he doesn't look too small. ;)

I'll play around with shelving/ cab ideas for the inset area behind the panty. It could be a cute little area. Thanks, Rhome, for the drawer warning. You're right. I can figure the rest out later, but I needed the framing issue answered now. Framing has bee put off until Monday so I have a little extra time. whew!

I think this (or something close) is a winner:

Will your fine china be stored in the 12" lower cabs?
Will they fit?

Looks good Rhome! Thanks for yet another favor. While I like the look of the drawers on the counter, I'm not sure what I'd put in them. Or rather what would I put in that I wouldn't need during parties when the counter is full. I'll have to look the things I want to store back there.

The wall without the upper looks better than the tiny uppers. It does look naked there though, huh? When DH and I were thinking about the uppers lining the back wall at one depth (before the inset area) we were planning to use mirror as the backsplash. You know, kind of like Candice Olson does on her buffets.

Edie--I was planning on storing my two sets of china back there. The dinner plates fit in my 12" uppers in my old framed, partial overlay kitchen so I'm assuming they will in the new framed, full overlay cabs. I should check though just to be sure. Some of the china serving pieces would be too big though and would need to be stored with the rest of my bigger serving pieces and trays.

Breezy- I think I would give up the counter space and make everything flush, with shallow storage behind the fridge (also with glass doors) for wine glasses, etc. I think the mirror is a great idea...for both sections...and have it lit, inside, too.

If you need closed storage, for the liquor, I'd put it on shelves, behind doors and locked, in the lower half of the left cabinet. Then, have the glass doors above, for china/display, with the wine glasses and other narrow storage next to it. You have that lovely buffet space to the right, and the table behind you, so I'm not sure a narrow countertop is really that necessary. Just an idea :)

How about uppers instead of the hutch? Then the counter could be deeper there and still, I think, look 'natural.' I don't think the wall will look bare if you hang something fun on it. I'll try another view later.

That backsplash under the uppers is SUPPOSED to be mirror. ;-)

Lavender--thanks for your thoughts. I do need a place for beverages off the larger buffet space at the end. Appetizers would go on the buffet first to be replaced by the main meal later. I always have a problem finding a place for drinks. They could go on the buffet with the appetizers, but then they'd need a place to go after that when the meal was set out. I'm not sure where I'd put them after that. I'd like a space for them to live permanently.

Depending on what kind of entertaining we're doing (kids party vs. holiday vs. adult b-day), usually we have a couple bottles of wine or a pitcher of cocktails I've mixed up in bulk ahead of time, water, and a non-alcoholic beverage like an herbal lemonade (whatever looks good in the garden--basil, mint, lavender, or my fav rosemary!) or a fruity iced tea. Usually people help themselves.

Rhome--Looks great! I can see the mirror! ;) I think that's probably best functionally, even though I love the hutch idea visually. Those uppers are 12" deep, right? Even though they would stick out a bit farther than the wall, I think that's fine. That wall with the art would be a great place for something cool or creative. Did you create that modern art yourself? ;) Thanks again!

I actually like this every bit as much as the hutch, and can see where it would be so much better functionally. Plus, I thought the 2 hutches were a bit redundant and competed for attention. But since you could only see both, most likely, from the mudroom, not a big deal probably. ;-) Anyway, another positive.

The art is a Kandinsky print option offered by the software... shamefully squeezed into the size frame that seemed appropriate for the wall. lol

Much more important point: I would adjust the pantry wall/fridge wall relationship in order to fit the 12" upper cabinets in that spot. I don't think you'll notice a potential few inches difference in the pantry as much as you will notice if the cabinets protrude oddly on the dining side.

Rhome--at least I got a hutch in the kitchen! I so love that look. Kandinsky is nice.

Jus to be clear, you're suggesting taking 6" out of the pantry to line uppers behind the pantry up with the wall behind the fridge? That sounds good. It does make that DR counter and base cab 25" deep. (19" already plus another 6".)

You were, a few days ago (Last week?), checking about how much room to leave behind the fridge, so I thought it might be a combination of moving the fridge wall back toward the dining room, and moving the pantry wall toward the pantry that might get you the 12" for those uppers, but I'm pretty sure we're understanding each other. I think it has to be done 'right,' if you want those uppers. The other option would be to put open shelves, and they could be shallower than full cabinets. I just don't think anything should hang out of the wall in a strange way.

Can the back of the pantry be flat framed so you don't lose any more space than necessary?

Breezy- There's something I'm still not clear about...do you have 6" deep drawers, against the fridge wall? Would it be better to bump the fridge back a few inches, or something and have that wall space all the way down...witht the hutch/buffet on one side and the serving buffet on the other?

I like the picture, but the 6" counter looks a little strange, with a wall above. Maybe that's just me, but I think I'd rather have 6" bumping further into the dining room...all the way across, with 12" deep drawers and countertop...or maybe the wall all the way up and down, so the hutch looks more built-in. Just a thought :)

LL, the counter is 13" deep in front of the fridge back (pretty bad way to say that, so I hope I'm making sense), except under the uppers, where it goes to 25".

Rhome--yes, I was checking on fridge clearances. I left 31" for fridge front to back (unit is 28.5" deep for the case part, then the door and handles stick into aisle) then 4" for the wall behind it. I decided to make the peninsula 48" deep. 48 minus 31 minus 4 =13" for cab behind fridge. 6" uppers were discussed earlier as 12" ones would have bee too deep. Also the difference between the depths behind fridge and pantry is 6".

Lavender--did I make that as clear as mud? ;). Counter behind fridge will be 13" ( I may have mentioned 12" which was my previous measure back there but I meant 13") regardless. It will be deeper now behind the pantry.

We're on the same page about the uppers. I'll do the math to make sure they don't stick out past the wall