Using the clips is a gamble, But...you might win.

The Man has already started go ahead on with em,if you start to have problems then think about face fastening.

John

John, I think I've heard you say that installation with clips is time intensive. How does this compare to the time it takes to face fasten, plug and screw? Will my man save time your way or will it be a wash? Wondering if I'll have an upcharge for labor if he goes to face fastening. Plugging and sanding sounds labor intensive. He could switch right now without redoing. I may have to pay for Ebty clips but that is probably small price to pay for a better install.

Jan, I have just seen too many problems useing the clips with ipe, but on the flip side some Folks get a good install using them.

Its like trex = T Junk for every 200 users there are 12 that cant understand what all the fuss is about?????

Install with the clips actually takes less time,with a savy Contractor,then face fastining one screw per joist no countersink/predrill things like that. And your in good shape with the pre grouved material. Of course it all depends on the Contractor he might have more cussing going on with the clips than he would face fastening there are several issues like different width material,bowed lumber,how to hold the stuff down until the very last board,did I get the clips that allow the screw to acually fasten the decking to the joists and the clip?? Will the Contractor give a Shi## and run the screws any way he wants?? Was the adhesive put down heavy enough to do its job?? did the bowrench scrap all the adhesive away while he was torking the decking down?? Will the ipe through a fit no matter how the clips were installed?????

After its done and say.......Nothing goes wrong Perfect install NO Problems in the first few important weeks a person walks out on the major $ ipe deck looks down and still sees the clip and the screw But Hey no little # 7 counter sunk screws!!! that would have been covered up by the finish and almost vanish and never have uplift/ warping/ creeping out of the clip/problems installed corectley with cross ventalation.

My My how I do go on....

Its Your Call Jan, You could go on with the clips and watch the movement real carefull,if they do start to act up face fasten as needed no problem seeing where the joist are just look down. The clips are like drawing on an inside straight but what the Hay you might just have to face fasten in a few places.

John Mon

John,
At this point he has only installed one narrow strip using clips near an ouside trim board (under where the railing will be).Do I understand you correctly that it will take more time to predrill ,using 2 screws per joist, then plug and sand than to install with clips? I had understood that installing with the clips took longer. Guess I will have an upcharge to go your way if it takes longer.

No Man,,,come on now work with me...

Pluging is a hole nother smoke if your thinking bout doing that much care is going to be needed your pre grouved material is landing about 1/2 where the normal plug would sit soooooooo you would have to move it over closer to the center. Install like this would take some time and a Carpenter that had done it before....a lot of times.

Like I said the install done by a Carptenter who knows what hes doing with the clips with in the confines of my already posted unknowns goes faster than face fastining if you dont count the bagage.

The upcharge I am not understanding.

After all the smoke clears its still your Call.
J.

As part of our house build we contracted to have an Ipe deck built. I presume the price was based on using the ebty clips. Ater reading this forum it appears that using a clip system is not a good idea. If I switch to face fastening I will no doubt have a change order charge. If the amount of labor changes the builder will certainly want to charge me more (upcharge). The installer is "new" to the clips so would probably run into the problems you mentioned. I want to have a trouble free deck so prefer to use your install method. What percent of the decks you do are just face fastened versus FF and plugged? Let's say install time for inexperienced clip install is the same as for FF (not plugged),how much more labor time is needed to plug and sand? 25%? 50%? ??. Do yo use a template for your predrills and screw placement?
BTW John, you always respond back so quickly. Do you have your computer out on the decks you are working on?

we are not seriously talking about plugging every screw hole are we? That's insane. This is a deck. It's outdoors. Let's just build everything out of concrete, inside and out and will never have to worry about anything. No customer will ever in a million years talk me into plugging every screw.

Normally, if the ipe is not pregrooved, the clips would take longer then just face screwing. Like John and Decker said, plugging is whole different ball game.

If you use brown headcote trim screws, without plugging, the labor should be a wash.

The ebty's, for material only, are close to $1 per sq. ft.

I much prefer the face screw method for all of the reasons you have already read about.

Mark

Jan,

I have built a lot of Ipe decks, but I have never used a "hidden fastener" system. Although I have no experience with the various systems, I do know Ipe. Some boards will be bowed, and can be straightened...but will a few plastic clips be able to hold them in place? Sun/rain/snow will conspire to make those boards want to move, cup and shrink. When they do shrink and cup, those clips won't be too hidden, and you may end up with loose boards that rattle when you walk on them.
I face screw all of my decks (2 per joist). I primarily use the brown colored #8 "Headcote" trimhead stainless steel screws...2.5". They are pricey, but worth every penny, as they blend in with the Ipe very nicely. I plug about 10% of my decks for clients that want truly hidden fasteners. When I plug, I use a beefier screw (#10 2 3/8" dekker screws from mcfeelys.com) with a bugle head...they will hold Ipe in place like no other screw. Plugging is time consuming, but I build in Brooklyn, and urban decks are much smaller than those outside of the city. You said your deck is large, but never gave dimensions.
Face screwing may or may not be more expensive or time consuming than clip installation, but it is the best way to hold down Ipe. Do you deserve the best?

steve

The deck pros here are understandably cautious about new fasteners. The tradional hidden fasteners (I think made of fiberglass?) definitely don't work. The local builders here confirm that.

{{!gwi}}For my ipe deck, I decided to take a shot on the TC-G, stainless clip. Before I did, I put one in my bench vice, and gave it a couple of good smacks with a hammer. It didn't move.

The ipe deck boards are down now for 8 months. No issues with the clips, or cupping with the boards.

But I don't know if that is because of (1)the clips, (2)the lumber, or (3)the ventilation.

As far as labor goes, I used a buscuit joiner to slot each board. So I would say the installation of hidden fasteners takes 3X as much time as just face screwing, but is probably faster than facescrewing pugging and sanding.

I'll try to post a pic later of the deck, showing the current condition.

I don't see any boards misbehaving. (Yikes, look at the old vinyl siding on the house. Looks like I need to replace that next!)
{{!gwi}}

The boards are all flat.
{{!gwi}}

Ahhh! Peace and quiet (Yikes, look at that picnic table. Looks like I need to replace that too!)
{{!gwi}}

It looks good Tom. Did those clips fit tight into the biskit slots? What is the gap between boards? can you see the clips from above?

I guess there is at least one good clip system...if you don't mind spending 3 times the amount of time. You built your own deck...there's no telling if a contractor would be as conscientious.

Now get out there and sand that table. A client of mine has that same set...teak? It's very nice, with the bent wood arm rests on the chairs.

steve

Hi Brooklyn,
{{!gwi}}

Yes, the clips are quite tight.

The pic at the left is a Tiger Claw TC-G, stainless, painted black, you can hardly see 'em from above. The clip has an automatic board spacer (about 3/16"), so you just pull the boards tight. However, the clip flange at the bottom is wider than the board spacer (the package says they're designed for composite boards - I think 1/4" roundover)

Bottom line - my ipe is 1/8" roundover, so I have to make a pass on the bottom of the board with a 1/4" roundover where ever the clips meet the boards. (I'm slotting the boards by hand, so it really isn't that complicated)

Around here, these clips are sold as "PHANTOM - hidden deck fasterner", but they are made by Tiger Claw. A bag of 90 with screws runs about $50.

Yes, I should just sand the table. It's not the real good one (teak). I bought it at Lowes 8 years ago. They said it was ipe.

By the way, if you're in the area (5 minutes off I-80, near the Delaware Water Gap), you're welcome to stop by! - critique the deck, (glass of beer, wine, whatever!)

Tiger Claw is hooked up with TimberTech those are the clips recomend for the earth wood line. I have to say they are the best so far very tough and they seem to be spring loaded so the earth wood plank has to go in at an angle.

Joe Wood and Steve are amoung the few who plug ipe decks. Joe has some big projects out with plugs all the way. I plug for detail not the entire project.

Nice looking Project Tom!! you might try a stripper on that table,NO NO not That Kind of Stripper!!! A Chem stripper with an acid wash then sand it. John

You guys are all great! We and the contractor have agreed to abandon the plastic ebty clips in favor of screwing down the ipe boards. Hopefully he can return clips but will have to purchase screws. John has said he uses 1 5/8" ss trimhead square drive #7 screws. Are the tops painted? How deep should they be countersunk? Do you countersink the same amount if you decide to plug and sand? Steve changes to a larger screw when he plugs. Can we just use brown head screws and decide whether we P & S later? Are the colored screws readily available?

I use the brown epoxy coated #8 Headcote screw that I mentioned in my earlier message. The same company makes a countersink (smartbit) that works perfectly with any #7 or #8 trimhead screw. If you want to plug, it's a different procedure. You need to use a 3/8" countersink bit, and 3/8" plugs. If you use the trimhead screws...you're married to them...it would be hard to remove them, and countersink/plug.

The screws/smartbit are available in stores around Brooklyn. Don't know about your locale. You can buy anything online. mcfeelys.com sells all of the products that I mentioned.
I am not affiliated with any of the above vendors...just a happy customer.

steve