Layout Help- Big Range+Island+Big Windows- Will this Work?

14 years ago

I have been trolling the GW site for months now and Ive taken everything IÂve learned and incorporated as much as I could into this layout. I hope it is worthy of your expert input.

HereÂs the Layout (stated clearances include 1 1/2" counter overhang):

Goals & Current State: My DH and I live in a 105 year old Italianate with a kitchen, butlerÂs pantry, mudroom and formal dining room. We have plenty of storage space but our number one goal for this remodel is improving the kitchenÂs overall functionality. In the current layout, the only DW and GD are in the butlerÂs pantry and we store our daily dishware in the mudroom. In the kitchen we use a counter height table placed between the two large windows for increased counter space and for informal seating. So to improve the kitchenÂs functionality, we want to get more counter space, put a DW and GD in the kitchen and add storage of dishware used daily. We must maintain the eat-in capability because we love eating and hanging out in the kitchen and the DR is on the other end of the butlerÂs pantry.

In the current layout, the DW and GD are in the butlerÂs pantry and we store our daily dishware in the mudroom. We have three doors in the kitchen and 2 very large windows at lower than counter height. We use a counter height table placed between the two large windows for increased counter space and for informal seating.

To improve the kitchenÂs functionality, we want to get more counter space, put a DW and GD in the kitchen and add storage of dishware used daily. We must maintain the eat-in capability because we love eating and hanging out in the kitchen and the DR is on the other end of the butlerÂs pantry.

My DH and I are the only kitchen workers; we have 2 large, four-legged, furry kids and I donÂt see that changing anytime soon. One of us usually preps and the other cooks. We clean together. We entertain informally about 8 times/year but I see that increasing once the kitchen is done.

Even though itÂs just the two of us, we use our kitchen everyday. We cook smaller meals most nights during the week and larger meals on the weekend. We have a separate DR that is used for dinner parties and when our large families are in town. For smaller gatherings, everyone ends up in the kitchen.

Flexibility: We went back and forth (for many months) about modifying the large windows to counter height, but have decided not to do so. We also considered taking down the wall between the mudroom and kitchen, but decided with our two large dogs, we needed to keep the mudroomÂs functionality (where would we hide the mud?). We are open about the placement of the sink and fridge, but donÂt want the stove in the island. (We had that in a previous house and didnÂt like it). The eat-in capability is must have for the reasons stated above. We have considered many layouts with side-by-side seating, but we strongly prefer being able to look at each other while eating so seating on 2 sides of the island was a middle ground. We will keep the sink and DW in the butlerÂs pantry and add a beverage fridge, which gives us additional flexibility for cleanup after large parties and access to cold drinks and handwashing without coming into the kitchen.

Appliances: We really want a 48" duel fuel range. We realize it may be big for a kitchen of our size, but we have already imagined cooking on it! We could live with a 36" range top with DO if the layout worked. We plan to use a 36" FD fridge (standard depth, but made to look built-in), MW drawer, standard DW, 31" SS sink, and plan to install a pot filler on the range.

Island: The island is 4 x 7 Â½" and will be all counter height. We considered many sizes, but decided this one was a good compromise. It provides much needed prep space and space for 4 to sit and eat comfortably.

Storage: We have lots of storage in the butlerÂs pantry for platters, trays, wine and beer glasses and all non-daily serving ware so we donÂt need to account for that in the kitchen. We plan to install a 15" deep pantry for daily dishware and small appliance storage. IÂve read that you canÂt get much in 15" drawers or cabinets so I want around the house and measured the shelves and drawers in our original built-ins. Many of the drawers and shelves are shallower than 15" and store our current dishes so this should work for us (our previous house was 90 years old so maybe weÂre just used to small drawers and shelves!)

I tried to include everything asked in the Read Me If YouÂre New to GW Kitchens message but let me know if you need any additional facts, info.

I really appreciate any input you have on the layout, things we need to consider and your thoughts on overall functionality. Thanks so much in advance for your time.

From The South

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Comments (18)

bostonpam
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I think the seating and clearance is very tight. According to National Kitchen and Bath Guidelines:

a. In a seating area where no traffic passes behind a seated diner, allow 32" of clearance from the counter/table edge to any wall or other obstruction behind the seating area.
b. If traffic passes behind the seated diner, allow at least 36" to edge past.
c. If traffic passes behind the seated diner, allow at least 44" to walk past.

That 33" is very tight. You may need to shrink the island from both sides and maybe pushed it down towards the range 2 inches.

We mocked things up with boxes, tables and chairs to get the "real" feel for spacing and that helped us greatly.
chicagoans
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
IMHO you won't be happy with your refrigerator in the corner. I don't think 3" of filler on the left is enough to open the left side door past 90 degrees, so you won't be able to get the drawers out for cleaning. (I used to have a ref in a corner, and I had to pull it all the way out past the counter and angle it in order to get the door open far enough to pull out the drawers. It was a pain to clean.) Also it looks like the door would swing open into the window. (Remember that fridge handles add an extra 3" or so to the depth of the door.)

You could consider sacrificing a few inches on either side of the range to give yourself enough space to the left of the fridge to open it all the way. (Maybe a 9" broom closet? See if you can find the specs on the fridge to figure out how much space you need to open the doors enough to pull out the drawers.) I'd still worry about hitting the window, though.

I can understand wanting to keep those big gorgeous windows but that does limit you.

What's on the other side of the 39" bump-in on the right hand side? I'm wanting to turn that into a bump-out for your fridge. :)
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marcolo
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Agree with bostonpam and chicagoans, but also: Where will you put the toaster and coffee maker? The only counter space is now the island and the landing areas by the range. Neither makes a good spot for any appliances that will sit out on the counter permanently.
fromthesouth
Original Author
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks so much for your responses!

bostonpam- You're right, the clearances are tight. Its a great idea on mocking things up with furniture and boxes to test them out. I read about doing this on the site and we're planning on doing that as a next step. I could live without putting a fourth seat on the corner (the 33" seat), but I like even numbers (weird, I know) so Id like to make it work. Sounds like DH and I have some homework tonight. What do you think about the MW drawer opening towards the fridge?

chicagoans- Very good point on the fridge. It would be a shame to go through all this work to save the windows and then break one with the fridge door! I'll check the specs to see how much space we need. We considered going with a 36" range and including a second oven in the butler's pantry so maybe that's what we'll have to do. I really would like plenty of landing space next to the cooking zone. I have essentially none now and that's very high on my priority list. So while I really want a 48" range, I want plenty of landing space more. I'll have to review the NKBA reco on combining landing areas, but my memory is I had some breathing room. Oh, and that bump out is actually a non-working chimney (plastered over) in a load bearing wall. The other side is the mudroom. I guess I should have shaded the area in on the layout to show it's solid.

marcolo- We currently have our coffee maker in the butler's pantry and will keep it there. The remodel of the butler's pantry is out of scope for this remodel, but the plan is to also insert a bev fridge in there to create a beverage center. We rarely use the toaster and I plan to turn it on its side and put in the 15" pantry, along with the blender and other small appliances.
fromthesouth
Original Author
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
So DH and I decided that we're willing to consider the 36" range and push the fridge 12" away from the wall. That gives us a total of 15" from the wall. Based on the fridge specs, this should give us plenty of space to open and clean.

So should we go with a tall pantry next to the fridge or upper and lower cabinets for more landing space?

Any other thoughts about the layout?
mom2lilenj
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I like your design. I see you doing prep on the island looking out those windows. I have an old house too and IMHO tall windows just look right in an old house, especially in an Italianate!

The problem I see is the fridge being in the corner makes getting a quick drink inconvient. The person would probably go past the stove being the more direct path. Not a big deal with just two people, but at a party it could be a problem. I would move the fridge up toward the hallway. This does make the stove not being quite as convient to the sink, but that may be a compromise you might be willing to make. The fridge there would allow the door to swing into the hall doorway so you could get by with less wall clearance.

I would bet the bump out on the right is an old fireplace/chimney. If so you could expose it and make it a decorative feature.

If you move the fridge, I would move the island to the left to make 39" clearance to the stove (the fridge is out of the way). That would give 3" to the bump out clearance and give better traffic flow to/from the mudroom.
mom2lilenj
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Another suggestion is to swap the DW and trash in the island, but keep at least 24" next to the sink closest to the stove. Unfortunately, you may lose the stool across from the bump out to do it. If it is swapped the trash will be convient to both clean-up and prep. Someone could be putting dishes away while the other is cooking, so with the DW on the other side of the sink it would be out of the the cook's way to access the sink.

Also I personally like to clean up as I go so I often times leave the DW open while cooking so I can just plop dirty stuff right in the DW. If you do that, that's another reason to swap the DW/trash.
houseful
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Your aisle and cabinets dimensions don't seem to add up to your room dimensions. I calculated that you have a few unused inches in both directions.

What do you think of this? Are you opposed to radius seating?

I was running short on time and didn't put in upper cabinets. However, I agree with Mom that you should switch the frig and stove. You could put the MW between the stove and frig in an upper cabinet and make the 15" pantry more of a hutch st*yle just for interest. And you can have your 48" range!
fromthesouth
Original Author
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
This is awesome feedback and so incredibly helpful! For a newbie like me, having your input really gives me confidence in our layout.

So I've been contemplating the reco to switch the fridge and the range. I know having the fridge closer to the hall gives quick access to drinks, ensures the door opens properly and keeps the people from having to walk behind the cook to reach the fridge.

But what are your thoughts about the impact of the fridge placement on the openness of the space? Do you think having the fridge on the right and the hutch on the left creates a more enclosed entrance into the kitchen? Right now we dont have any wall cabinets so we enjoy a fairly open and bright space with the large windows. I dont want to lose that so I'm interested in your thoughts.

houseful: Your rendering is awesome. Its so cool to see my space in 3D! I surely dont want to lose inches in the planning (every inch counts, right) so Ill go back and recalculate the cabinet measurements. I love the curved island because it adds so much interest. My DH and I really want to maintain the seating for 4 on 2 sides of the island. This is the only way we could keep the ability to look at each other and our guests while eating. We played around with a "T" shaped island (the bottom of the T extending from the window), but thought the proposed island gave us more prep space.

mom2lilenj: I fell in love with your idea of switching the DW and trash. It makes so much sense! If we lose that seat in the 33" space due to clearance issues, well definitely incorporate your suggestion. I also like your suggestion to expose the brick in the chimney. We had an architect friend over to take a look at the space and when I mentioned using the chimney as a decorative feature, she said because it was plastered over, the brick is probably not "pretty" brick. Id like to find out though, so maybe well expose a section in the mudroom to find out whats underneath the plaster. Even if its not pretty brick (which Im not exactly sure what that means), it would be awesome to expose another original element to the house. Ill keep you posted.

Thanks again for your input and I welcome any other thoughts or ideas!
altagirl
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I think you have a great plan. I like the suggestions for tweaking the space a little. I don't think moving the fridge to the other end of the stove wall closes it in at all. Actually, I was going to suggest it b/c personally I think it's important to have the sink and fridge near each other. Have you considered making the 15"d hutch with a countertop instead of no counter? It would open up the corner coming in to the kitchen from the hall... I thought putting the coffee maker and toaster there would be convenient since it's near the fridge and sink.

I have a similar set up with the fridge in the corner of the hallway entrance and hutch/cabinet on the adjacent wall. Here's a pic. HTH
fromthesouth
Original Author
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
altagirl: Thanks so much for sharing this picture. You're right, having a countertop on the hutch seems to help with the openness. I am putting this in my inspiration file! You have an amazing kitchen.
cawaps
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I have a very similar home and a kitchen with similar issues. We decided to alter the windows, but if we hadn't, I was considering bench seating in front of the windows (ours are about 20" above the floor) and a dining table. If you did something similar, it would free up enough room on the opposite wall for counters. It would have less storage overall than what you proposed, but you've got the butler's pantry, and presumeably you'll be reclaiming some storage space there (are you taking out the sink/DW?) This layout would have better clearances, and I think the dining would be more pleasant.

Basically, it would give you an L-shaped kitchen with a kitchen table.
chicagoans
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I like houseful's rendering and I also like altagirl's hutch alot!

Just one more small suggestion: you could put open shelves in that nook between the bumpout on the right and the entrance to the butler pantry to display serving ware, photos, etc. And/or hang a large, nicely framed chalkboard and turn that into your 'message center'. Just something to give that space some purpose.
sabjimata
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Altagirl...the 12" hutch area...do you use it as a work station? How do you use that space? I am curious because I am going to have lowers on one run, as well.
altagirl
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
sabjimata: the hutch area is used for storage and the counter top has my dog treats/cookie jar, food processor and a couple of colorful serving pieces. i imagine that we will use the counter for serving when we have parties but we haven't done that yet. i'm still trying to finish with decorative touches.
fromthesouth
Original Author
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks so much to all of you for your help so far. Based on your input, this layout reflects the key change which is switching the fridge and the range. We placed a 15" pantry to the right of the fridge for storage.

houseful: You were right, my dimensions were a little off. We took the extra space and expanded the island by six inches so the clearances are not exact in this layout, but they are better than the previous post.

mom2lilenj: Because we have a bit more space in the island, we can now switch the DW and the trash so that the trash can be used for cleanup and prep. We even get to keep the 2 by 2 seating. Thanks so much! NOTE: This isnt yet reflected in the layout because we havent had a chance to get to Lowes for an update.

Here's the layout:

So I was absolutely convinced this layout met all of our needs (increase countertop, in kitchen storage, better functionality with DW and GD) until I started doing the last step you all suggest which is envisioning cooking with the new layout. To my surprise, I think we need a prep sink!!

In our current kitchen, the sink is literally right next to the stove. With 2 small steps, I have access to water to fill pots and the sink to wash veggies, dump pasta, etc. I never knew how convenient this was until I started "cooking" in the new layout and had to go to the island to get to water and use the sink.

So now Im wondering if I should remove the 15" pantry next to the fridge, slide the fridge closer to the hallway, insert a 15" base between the range and fridge and include a prep sink? One of the base cabinets next to the range will have to be small enough to create a large enough filler for the fridge to open fully. I am not concerned about losing the pantry storage since we have the butler's pantry and a dry food storage closet between the kitchen and butler's pantry.

My DH doesnt think a prep sink is necessary (he keeps reminding me the sink is 24" away), but I want to make sure we have the most functional kitchen possible considering our current footprint. Id get a prep sink with a cutting board cover to not lose the counter top space when not in use.

So do you think this layout needs a prep sink?
mom2lilenj
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Adding a prep sink would be nice and I think would work well. But instead of adding a prep sink, this is what I would do.

I would go ahead and eliminate the pantry, move the fridge as close to the wall as the door swing would allow and center the stove on the island. Bring an upper down to the counter on the far left side of the stove to balance the bulk of the fridge a little so you don't have to have perfect symmetry around the stove. Shorten the distance from the island to the stove to 40"-42". Then with the dw and trash swapped you could quickly access the sink from the side. Prepping could be on the island then with a short turn you are at the stove.
fromthesouth
Original Author
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
thanks mom2lileng. I appreciate the feedback. So you think I won't need the prep sink if I can get the range closer to the main sink? I think this may be a good compromise especially since we'll have a second sink and DW in the butler's pantry for major cleanup so we could "reserve" the entire island for prep if necessary.

I'm going to play around with putting the range closer to sink to see how it would work and look without the symmetry of the uppers. Again, thanks!

Layout Help- Big Range+Island+Big Windows- Will this Work?

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