Newbie
Congrats on your upcoming remodel

This is not your forever home - so I'll assume you want to try to improve your home for your comfort & get return on your investment

Real estate is volatile - as proven since the bubble burst late 2008/2009 - There is no crystal ball, and really no way of knowing what the return on any one of our real estate/renovation investments is

What is your budget for your renovation?
what are your priorities - ALl new kitchen, new windows, new floor plan etc...
What are the homes in your locale compromised of & how does yours measure up?

Stating all of the above because it is easy to get caught up in over renovating or improperly renovating
A 1957 ranch without changing footprint is a 57 ranch - Without cutting into either your kitchen or bathroom to create a hallway, you will have to go through the same routine with the laundry - For me, unless I had to travel thousands of square footage, I'd rather have a bathroom & kitchen not cut into -

Hopefully I am making some sense - just meant to really have you think this through, you sound young - many of us have been doing this for awhile and have experience.

To me, if I was just starting out - I think I would renovate the kitchen - do updates everywhere inside/outside

Best to you

Newbie- I put the fridge, where you had it in the other plan...and I like it so much better! You could have beadboard/wall on the side facing the dining room and it makes it feel more separate...now you're not looking at the dishes :)

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Controlfreakecs- Yes the window sizes can move/change/or be eliminated, if need be.

Jejvtr- the goal for the remodel is around $35-40 including, appliances, etc. we got a few bids, so we know know it can be down for that amount. However, that would not involve things like moving the basement stairs. My goal is to do a smart renovation that we are happy and can enjoy but is inconsistent with resale. That being said, I completely agree you, only so much good can come from even the best kitchen design because at the end of the day it is a 1957 ranch with 3 bedrooms and 1 bath upstairs. An apple is still an apple! So I am just trying to make smart decisions. Also DH and I do not have children now, so we are trying to imagine how those changes will impact how we use the home. We bought this home, our first, 3 years ago.

My priorities for any design are dishwasher, counterspace, functional layout, a more open floor plan, efficient storage. The cabinets, windows and floor are all original and need to go (I should offer them to those on the "I want a 1950s kitchen thread"). We have wood floors throughout the home except the current kitchen has vinyl, so I would like to extend the wood to the kitchen.

My debate has been to flip the DR and Kitchen and also the entrances. However, I have been in overthink mode lately and just needed to get some outside prospective.

Thanks again! Any input is helpful! :)

Controlfreakecs- I tried laying out the kitchen as you described in a long L along the garage and east facing window wall. It would work but I would have to lose the second window. DH did not like because we would lose the window and we would be eating in the middle of the kitchen. Thanks again!

About the laundry issue--would an open floor plan really solve that better than finding a way to squeeze a stacked washer and dryer somewhere on this floor?

The obvious place it could go is the bathroom closet. That's close enough to the bathroom that you could connect the washer to the existing plumbing stack, which saves you a ton of money and hassle, and close enough to the east wall that it might even be possible to get a regular dryer that vents outside (through the east wall); if not, you could get a condenser dryer.

Obviously, this would cost you the storage in the bathroom closet, but there are solutions for that. One possibility that comes to mind, which would replace some of the lost bathroom closet space, is building inset storage into the bathroom wall that faces the stairs--if you can inset some storage into that wall at about chest height, closer to the front of the bathroom than the back, it would be high enough relative to the stairs that it wouldn't cause problems with the height of the "ceiling" above the stairs. You might need several smaller storage spots to replace the one big bathroom closet, but you would have laundry on the first floor right outside the bedrooms.

Oh, and PS, if the W/D you have in the basement laundry room are not compact stackable units (i.e., can't be moved upstairs) and you don't need the space they're in, you could just leave them there for backup and overflow. In other words, use the hall closet laundry for everyday stuff, and leave your existing W/D in the basement so that when you have gigantic items (king-size comforters etc.) or incredibly filthy items or just plain too much laundry all at once, or if one of your hall-closet machines breaks and is out of commission for a few days waiting for a part to come in, you could use the ones downstairs.

If the hall closet laundry solution works for you, then it would free you up to think about the kitchen remodel just for its own sake, just to solve the kitchen/dining room/entertaining problems, instead of hoping for a kitchen remodel that will solve all your problems at once.

My debate has been to flip the DR and Kitchen and also the entrances.

What is it that you would gain by flipping the DR and kitchen?

I can tell you what you would lose: a lot of money that you otherwise wouldn't need to spend at all, since the gas and plumbing hookups in the kitchen would have to be moved to the DR. And also more money, since with the DR there you would need to create a doorway between LR and DR (people tend to expect free movement between those rooms--a closed-off DR is a bit weird and thus not great for resale). And with that being a load-bearing wall, you would need a structural engineer to help you put a joist or I-beam or something over the new doorway. Not cheap.

So I'm just trying to get a better idea of what you gain by flipping the rooms, in order to see whether it's worth those extra costs.

Newbie - think the window thing could be solved by just moving it farther down toward the back door. But the fact that you will not have a DR in any form, just an eat-in kitchen is definitely a negative.

Sometimes I think one of the biggest issues we all have with finalizing our design is remaining true to our priorities. It sounds like a separate dining space is important to you (or at least DH). I think it's a good idea to maintain a list of the things that are most important and continuously refer to it. Example: My kitchen/breakfast room table is one that was in my grandfather's home. It is a large table and not using it would open up more possibilities for my kitchen plan, but not having it was non-negotiable to me. it was a priority and the kitchen not only had to function around it, but also had to blend with it stylistically.

I actually like Lavender's last plan. Does it fit all of your priorities? You should be able to find a round table that has leaves so you can enlarge it for groups of 6 or 8.

Ideagirl- Good idea about the laundry, except that it's over the basement stairs. I'm not sure the floor in the bath/linen closet is flat. We had a similar layout in the home I grew up in and there was a built-in TV nook over that part of the stairs...that started about 2' above floor level.

Ideagirl- The bathroom closet is not a true closet in that it is over the stairs so the bottom 1/3 of the closet is missing.

My problem with the current problem is not just laundry. It is more of the the fact that my living room is a traffic bowling alley. I would like to be able to get to the kitchen and/or dining room without traveling through the living room. What I think I would gain by closing off the current DR entrance would be the LR would be its own separate room (no traffic necessary) and that I could access the DR & Kitchen via an entrance in the current kitchen. I think that would create better flow. The problem with many plans I have come up with is that I cannot remove too much of the current kitchen side of the load-bearing wall for an entrance since that is the only true wall in the LR (one has large fireplace, the other a picture window).

I know I have spent way too much time thinking about this remodel but I do not want to remodel creates more problems than it solves. Also since I live in the house it is very nice to get outside perspectives that are not afraid to be honest with me! :)

Lavender- Wow you and I do think alike.. which is scary but not as scary as when we do it at the same time! ;) I will try plugging your "new" version of our plan into my software to see what it looks like. My initial reaction is good and I like that bumped out window! I am a little worried that the open space between the stools and the shallow storage will look odd. Also when I was talking to DH last night he said he could lose the overhang area ands stools. Funny thing DH said "I like Lavender's banquette idea"! I said I do too, I am just not sure about sacrificing the wall space in the LR. Yes, Lavender my DH now refers to you by name! :)

I would like to be able to get to the kitchen and/or dining room without traveling through the living room. What I think I would gain by closing off the current DR entrance would be the LR would be its own separate room (no traffic necessary) and that I could access the DR & Kitchen via an entrance in the current kitchen.

You don't need to close off the DR and flip the rooms to gain that. You just need to add a door to the kitchen from the LR. The downside to that is losing more of the only true wall in the LR, but it sounds like you're assuming you would lose 30" (the width of a standard interior doorway) of that wall. You don't have to lose anywhere near that much, and here's why: Do you really need a 58" doorway between LR and DR? Make it 48" or even 42" by walling up that much space on the right side of the opening, and it's still big--a lot bigger than the average interior doorway-- but you just gained 10" or 16", which means that you can put a standard 30" doorway into the kitchen at the other end of that wall and it only actually costs you 14" or 20" of the LR wall.

And depending how it looks with your fireplace, it might cost you even less. I see that the little bit of LR/DR wall over by the fireplace is 30" long and appears to stick out more than the fireplace does. What if you shrink that down to, say, 24" or whatever would make it level with the fireplace, and then make the overall LR/DR door 42" wide instead of 58". In other words, scoot that 58" door over 6" to the left (north), and then wall up part of the right side of the doorway to shrink it down to 42". You just gained not only the 16" from shrinking it, but the 6" from moving it, for a total of 22". That means you could add a 30" LR/kitchen door over on the other end of that wall, right by the bath closet, and it only costs you EIGHT INCHES of LR wall space!

And I think those eight inches are well worth giving up to have better flow and a natural-feeling layout. Right now you're used to having the kitchen and DR off in their own section of the house, with a doorway in only one of them so you can't reach the other without going through the first, but having only one doorway is what's causing your traffic flow problems and nobody builds (or remodels) houses that way anymore so I think it will impact you negatively at resale.

In the abstract, the solutions are either to have a doorway for each room or one larger doorway in the middle that takes you to both, but given the way your living room is laid out, I'm guessing you would not want a large (i.e. 42" or 48") doorway smack in the middle of that LR/DR-kitchen wall. (Or would you?). If you don't want a large doorway in the middle that leads to both DR and kitchen, then to improve your flow without taking a hit on resale value, one door at each end of that wall is a great solution. You could do one standard door and one 42" or 45" or 48" one, or symmetrical doors (say, 36" each--that takes up the same wallspace as a 30" and a 42"), whatever works for you, but the point is, you can do that--fix your traffic flow, avoid the cost of flipping DR and kitchen, AND keep the DR/LR doorway that you need to keep for resale value--while only losing as little as 8" of your LR wall.

The bathroom closet is not a true closet in that it is over the stairs so the bottom 1/3 of the closet is missing.

That *might* (not saying it will, just throwing it out there) be another reason, on top of the ones Lyvia and I think others have mentioned, to move the basement stairs. That is, turn them so they run another way. If your basement is unfinished they don't have to look pretty, they just have to get you down to the basement. I know you said your budget doesn't allow for that, but if your budget would allow for flipping the kitch/DR--which involves moving plumbing and gas lines, hiring a structural engineer, installing a joist/I-beam in your load-bearing wall, etc.--well, just sayin'. Maybe you gain more from moving the stairs than you would from flipping the kitchen/DR. I don't know because I can't see or walk around in your house, but it might be an idea to play with.

Lavender- I put your idea into the ikea planner. I think it may work. Here it is:

Any thoughts? Buehl if you are out there and not to busy I would love, love to hear from you!

LOL! Newbie, that's too funny :)

I'm glad your DH likes the banquette idea...I do too, just because I love banquettes and window seats. The other great thing...you have room for the bigger kitchen layout, if you decide against the stools and use the banquette!

While I totally see what you're saying about the living room, getting rid of that 'current' dining room doorway will make a huge difference. Even if your new entrance is a few feet to the left, of what you planned, it will still leave you plenty of space for a wonderful seating arrangement. Are you planning to put the TV on that wall, too?

Also nice...when you're sitting in the living room, you'll be looking at your pretty window and banquette...not the kitchen. You could even tie in the colors from the living room, into the window treatments in the dining area...and some of the pillows, if you go with the banquette :)

Here are some examples of corner banquettes. The last one, I believe, is Sarah Susanka's (Not So Big House) and that's her only dining area. She adds leaves to the table and actually extends it to seat many people.

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Newbie- It looks good! So much better with your software :)

Maybe go through both plans tonight with your DH and figure out how much room you have to get past furniture...to reach the basement and if you have enough storage for everything. I think you're getting close!

Ideagirl- We were told we will not need a structural engineer, since we know the wall is load-bearing and we are only opening one opening while closing another. New plumbing and electrical are necessary either way b/c the house is old and we are not keeping the same footprint. So the added costs of flipping the rooms are actually quite minimal- or at least that is what I am told. I should find out what the cost would be to change the stairs.

Ideagirl- I think I am following what you are saying, but the fireplace is very large and makes placement of the furniture difficult. Here is a photo of our living room from the realtor's listing. The fireplace still looks the same (that is another topic for another forum!) But the carpet is removed and there are now hardwood floors in this room. Also the furniture is not the same. But we have our couch and a chair in the same position. We also have a coffee table in front of the couch. And a TV is on the other end of the picture window on a small stand. We would like to get new living room furniture and a new flat screen TV. But we still need to find these things in the LR.

Hope this photo helps!

Oooh, I love furniture arrangements! :)

If the dining room door is closed and the new dining room door is the only entrance....then what about something like this?

A comfy chair on either side of the fireplace, with an ottoman in between? Slant both chairs, like the one you have now...and the ottoman will be easy to move, when you need to access the fire.

The sofa can go in front of the big picture window with the coffee table and a side table, between the chair and sofa. Opposite, place a new media cabinet with flat screen TV above (we got a great one at Shopko for about $100) but I like to build furniture!

This would give you the chair and ottoman and the sofa, across from the TV. It would also allow you to curl up in the other chair (and still use the ottoman) to read a book or look out the window. Also makes it easy for conversation and the ottoman can be moved over for extra seating.

What do you think? Any possiblities?

My favorite part is that you can sit on the sofa and see into a little of your dining area...bring those two spaces together and making your living room feel like less of a bowling alley :)

Lavender- I do like the idea of two chairs in front of the fireplace. I am not sure about the couch in front of the window because it seems that I would want to look outside and I always find it weird when I take walks and can see what people inside are watching on tv. I know, I am weird. But I do think that the loadbearing wall makes the most sense for a tv. The other idea would be above the fireplace.

Any more feedback about the current layout? I am nervous and would love to hear what others thought.

Newbie- TV above the fireplace is very common, and it's a good look, but I like the TV a little lower, so I don't have to look up to watch it.

Here's the other plan, with the banquette, since we're talking about it...just in case, anyone else wants to see it.

It would be great to get some more input and other options. Come on, gurus...let's see your ideas! I know there are some of you with excellent software, that would create much nicer plans than mine! :)

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the fireplace is very large and makes placement of the furniture difficult. Here is a photo of our living room from the realtor's listing.

I see what you mean. We have a long narrowish living room too, but oriented the other way (fireplace on a long wall, picture window on a short wall), and two five-foot doorways, so I know how tricky it can be with furniture placement.

With the placement of your fireplace, even closing up that DR doorway completely would not let you have a symmetrical little fireplace setup (armchair on each side, etc.), since the fireplace isn't in the middle of its wall. It seems designed for there to be an armchair on the left but not on the right. (Having the armchair and a pendant light, or some sort of light, on the left is a good move--it balances the off-center fireplace so it looks intentional and modern, which of course it is.)

I'm mentioning the off-center fireplace just because if you're not going to put an armchair to the right of the fireplace, you can still have a doorway there (not this big doorway, but a smaller one) without losing anything you were hoping for. I guess one of my concerns with closing off that doorway and flipping the DR/kitchen is that it would still feel like a hike to get to the kitchen. Not as much of a hike as it is right now, but you will still have to walk across the entire house to get a glass of water or a snack--the big difference is that you'll be hiking across the dining room instead of the living room. That's an improvement, but is it a huge improvement worth spending all this money for? If you want to go grab a snack and bring it to the living room--while you're watching TV, for example--you would have to cross part of the LR, the entire DR, part of the kitchen and back again. Whereas if you had a door to both the DR and the kitchen, you could just go straight to the kitchen and back. (You could also do that with a central large doorway that leads to both the kitchen and DR, but obviously that would kill your one long wall so you don't want that.)

Also, at first glance I liked the design Newbieremodeler was suggesting, but here's the problem: You said you have no kids yet but hope to have some soon, and figure you'll be in that house for 5-10 years. So here is a CARDINAL RULE: No matter what you do with the kitchen, you cannot have the range and the sink across from each other, because with little kids in the house you NEVER want to be carrying hot things across the kitchen floor. That creates a major opportunity for an accident--a kid gets in your way, you veer to avoid her, and boom, something spills and the kid gets burned. This is also true if you have pets. It's impossible to keep pets and little kids out from underfoot, so you have to design around them--design a kitchen where even if they get underfoot, you won't spill hot things on them.

So what that means is you need to be able to empty your boiling pasta water, take pans to the sink after you use them, etc., without ever walking across the open floor. So you need the range and sink positioned on adjacent walls (think an L shape with one of them in each leg of the L) or on the same wall.

If I have time when I get home I'll sketch something up and post it. But what I have in mind--and I'm picturing the kitchen where it currently is, not flipped--is basically a U shape with the bottom of the U across the top wall, one leg down the left as a peninsula with seating, and the other leg down the right. Either the sink and DW could go on the back wall and the range on the right wall, or vice versa. Maybe if I describe this you can sketch it to get a general idea, so picture this (by the way, if I say left or right, I mean left or right as you're looking at the bird's-eye floorplan, not as you're standing in the kitchen):

Smaller doorways (say 36") to DR and kitchen at each end of the LR wall, with the DR/LR doorway closer to the fireplace than it is now.

U shaped kitchen (upside down U) as described above. The left leg of the U (the one facing the DR, with seating) is about 5'2" long. The top leg is fully half of that back wall (the wall is 20'10" so the top leg is 10'5"); tweak that if you want the kitchen to be bigger than the DR or vice versa. The right leg of the U is 7'2" long--this will take it down to where it's 42" from the kitchen/LR door, which is more than enough for traffic to/from the LR to flow smoothly.

Either the sink and DW are on the top leg and the range on the right leg, or vice versa. If the sink is on top, put the DW to the left of it; if it's on the right, put the DW to the right (the point being to NOT have the DW between the sink and the range). This gives you a prep/cooking corner that's safe for kids and pets.

There is also a run of counter along the bottom wall. It is about 6' long (it starts a bit left of the kitchen/LR door and ends level with the DR-side edge of the peninsula where people sit, and there are 42" between the end of that peninsula and this run of counter--you could get away with less than 42" if you want to make that peninsula longer). If you want, you could make it 8 or 9 feet long instead of 6 feet, extending it into the DR, so that it could function as a sideboard--a place to store tablecloths, napkins, nice china, and whatever other dining room stuff you have. (It could also contain arts and crafts supplies for the kids, so the kids could sit at the DR table or the kitchen peninsula and draw/craft).

Your counter-depth fridge is located in this run (perhaps if it's not CD it could be inset into the wall), so that you have a work triangle, lots of clear counterspace around the range and sink, and people can come from the DR or LR to grab snacks from the fridge without getting in the way of whoever is cooking/prepping/doing dishes. Since this is the de facto snack area, perhaps the MW should be beside the fridge, if people use the MW for snacks/leftovers in your house.

Would something like that work?

Oops, I meant Lavender Lass, not you! When I was talking about the layout. Sorry. It was a conversation between you and LL that led to the Ikea drawing of a layout.

BTW, about the fireplace--I don't know if this matters or helps but I just want to put it out there: if you feel like it's really too wide and is messing with your plan, it might be possible (though not easy) to make it narrower. You would need a saw capable of cutting through stone; basically, cut off a foot or whatever from either side, and then patch up the sides with stone veneer. It's still going to be asymmetrical because that's just how it's positioned in the wall, but this might give you a little more flexibility with your furniture placement.

Hi Newbie,
Here's a link to a thread where people are currently discussing "burn-free design," i.e., how to design kitchens so as to prevent burns and other accidents. There's some humor and sarcasm in the thread but the basic gist is very useful, especially to a "Newbieremodeler" :-) who's planning to have kids fairly soon.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread on designing kitchens to avoid accidents and burns

The more I think about the layout, I cannot help but wonder which is better: Peninsula with overhang for stools OR additional cabinet space.

Thoughts?

Ideagirl- Newbie has a prep sink in the corner, between the range and the peninsula. That's what that round circle is...and I agree with you, very dangerous to carry hot water across a main aisle!

She's drawn this up so many times on the other posts, I know she plans to have the prep sink, but I think she forgot to add it in, on the last drawing. Did you see her great thread on prep sinks? There are some beautiful photos from lots of GWers :)

Ideagirl- I was actually planning for a prep sink in the corner cabinet of the peninsula to avoid exactly what you are concerned about--crossing the room with a hot pot of water with children under foot. My GC at the time thought I was nuts to want two sinks in such a small kitchen-- but I thought it was necessary to avoid all the things you mentioned.

I am still digesting your other suggestions. You bring up some good points like crossing the LR and DR to get a snack from the kitchen. That is part of the struggle with planning a new design. I know the current problems but I do not know if the changes I am making are going to create new and possible worse problems.

The more I think about the layout, I cannot help but wonder which is better: Peninsula with overhang for stools OR additional cabinet space.

Why's it an either-or? You probably don't want cabinets any deeper than the standard 24"--if they're deeper the extra space just becomes a place for stuff to get forgotten and never used. Also, if you use pullout shelves or drawers, think about how far they have to come out into the room when you open them, if you make them that deep--you can't use the extra space without making them come waaay out into the room.

So I don't think your extra cabinet space has anything to do with the overhang. Do your peninsula, put a normal amount of cabinet space into it, and have an overhang 15" or so into the DR. I have never heard of anyone regretting having both a DR table and a peninsula with seating, but I have heard of people regretting having only the DR table. Especially if you're hoping to have babies/young children, it's easier for you to feed a kid in a highchair when you are sitting at a counter-height peninsula on a stool, rather than at a table on a chair.

Also, a peninsula that's right in the kitchen is better for the fast weekday breakfasts that you need when you're trying to get the kids out the door to daycare/school and yourself to work. You don't want a full sit-down breakfast at the table at that point; you want the kids to be eating while you zoom around the kitchen doing last minute stuff, grabbing bites of toast and sips of coffee each time you zoom past the peninsula.

So in other words, get your storage elsewhere--not by making deep cabinets that kill your peninsula overhang. Ceiling-height cabinets will get you a lot more storage than a deep peninsula. Stuff the top cabinets with everything you rarely use (Thanksgiving turkey dish, fondue set etc.); that lets you keep things you regularly use down lower where they're more accessible.

I was actually planning for a prep sink in the corner cabinet of the peninsula to avoid exactly what you are concerned about--crossing the room with a hot pot of water with children under foot. My GC at the time thought I was nuts to want two sinks in such a small kitchen-- but I thought it was necessary to avoid all the things you mentioned.

It's not necessary, though. Put the kitchen sink on the same wall or an adjacent wall to the range, and you solve that problem without sacrificing any counter space to a prep sink. (BTW you need a big prep sink if you're planning to use it to dump boiling pasta water in--the little 12 or 15-inchers won't hack it, especially round ones, because the round shape makes water more likely to shoot right up the sides, since there are no corners to slow the water down.)

Looking at the layout you posted, with a round prep sink in a corner, that prep sink is costing you four square feet of counter space (2'x2')--yes, there are some corners of counter still left around the sink, but they are not usable workspace. It's also costing you about 12 cubic feet of under-counter storage space (2'x2'x3'). That's almost as much storage space as you would gain by making a deep peninsula with deep base cabinets and no overhang. Corner storage space can be totally usable and accessible either with pullouts, Lazy Susans, or by having the corner cabinet open to the dining room instead of the kitchen (so it would store things used in the DR or used infrequently, rather than frequently-used kitchen items).

Why give up all that storage space when you could have BOTH storage space AND an overhang/eating area, AND the kid-safe workspace you want, simply by ditching the prep sink and putting the kitchen sink closer to the range?

Also, in the layout you posted, where would the MW go? The logical place is near the fridge, since almost all the stuff people put in the MW comes from the fridge or freezer. But in the layout you posted, the only counter space near the fridge that you could put the MW on is beside the sink--a weird place for the MW and it cuts into your cleanup space.

Okay so here are the other ideas that were discussed at some point. Here is a layout w/o a prep sink. My biggest issue with this design is that when I am at the stove I will have my back to the rest of the room and it would be nice to be able to prep on the peninsula. This design could be done with or w/o an entrance directly into the kitchen from the LR.

Thoughts? Am I making matters better or worse? I am so confused!

PS, also, even if you have a large prep sink that isn't round, so it is ideal to pour boiling pasta water into, that only solves one of the problems caused by putting the sink and range across the room from each other. It solves the boiling pasta water problem, but not the problem of carrying hot and/or dirty pans across the kitchen.

Even if you leave hot pans on the stove until they cool before you put them in the sink, you are still creating accident opportunities--less dangerous ones, but it's still a pain. Say you're carrying a cold, dirty pan across the kitchen to put it in the sink. Kid or pet gets underfoot. Pan goes flying. No one gets burned, but now you have the mess that was in the pan all over your kitchen floor (and possibly your kid/pet and your cabinets too).

Also, leaving pans until they cool is a great way to make cleanup harder. I don't know how you work, but I typically fill dirty pans with hot water so they can soak--I use hot water not just because it cleans better, but mainly because the pans are still hot or warm and I don't want to damage them or create huge amounts of steam by putting cold water in them. Are you going to fill the pans with hot water from your prep sink to let them soak? Then what? Either you carry pans full of dirty (but not boiling) water across the kitchen, creating the "big mess" accident risk I just described, or you pour the dirty pan water down the prep sink before carrying them across the kitchen... but that means you are using your prep sink as a kitchen sink. And yet you are still carrying pans across the kitchen to put them in the dishwasher.

So you basically end up having two kitchen sinks, which costs you a lot of workspace and storage space... and why? Not because it's necessary, but just because you put the main sink across from the range instead of on the same or an adjacent wall. Your main sink, across from the range, starts looking kind of redundant...

Really, all you need is one big sink and a DW around the corner from the range. You don't need two sinks. And logically, you don't even want two sinks, because as long as your range is across the room from the main sink and the DW, you will STILL be carrying pans across the room and creating opportunities for big messes, pans dropped on your foot or on kids' heads and so on.

The top design is very good. The bottom design is the worst yet, because not only are the sink and range across from each other, which is a generally bad idea for the reasons mentioned above, but there is also a traffic path between them. It is bad enough to have them across from each other--don't make it worse by guaranteeing that kids, your husband, guests, and pets WILL be walking through that space while you're cooking. With or without a prep sink, if you create a kitchen that requires you to carry dirty pans across the room to the DW, you will have accidents (major or minor). Why do it?

Basically, you are creating a lot of risk--the risk of accidents that could be dangerous or at least inconvenient--in your effort to avoid ever having your back to people. Yes, having the range and sink on the front and back walls means that you would never have your back to the dining room or the peninsula. But so what? It creates so many problems that are so much worse than spending 15-20 minutes with your back to people, that it's just not worth it at all. Plus, these rooms are not huge--you can still hear and talk to people while you're cooking. And some people put mirrors on the range wall so they can glance into them and see people while they're cooking. Not necessarily right above the range, but to one side or the other.

The top design you posted is pretty much what I was suggesting--sink on the back wall, range on the side wall, fridge on the front wall, peninsula between the rooms--except that the fridge run is shorter and doesn't have a counter, and the rooms are flipped. When I was mentally sketching out a non-flipped plan for you, I completely forgot that the opening on the right-hand wall is not a window but the doorway you go through to get to the basement stairs. Sorry! Totally forgot! Ok, so now I do see what you gain by flipping the rooms.

What if you sketch out something like your flipped layout without a prep sink--the first plan in the post you posted at 13:14--but play with the refrigerator run, making it longer so it gives you more storage space and possibly also a spot for the MW. Also, I would suggest making the cabinet to the left of the range wider--bring it all the way down to the window--because 8 inches is really not big enough to be useful beside a range. Shoot for at least 12", hopefully more--and remember the range doesn't have to be centered on that run; you could have a 6" pullout or something to the right--because you have plenty of space on the right, and you need more on the left (not just for workspace but also so that pan handles don't stick out beyond the counter--you don't want kids to be able to grab them). You MIGHT, if your budget permits, want to think about scooting that window down towards the LR so that you can make that range run longer.

Ideagirl- I think this would be a good idea if moving the basement stairs was not a budget buster and if I can convince DH!! ;)

Great! Yeah, just get quotes on (1) moving the stairs and (2) moving the plumbing and gas lines and removing or capping the existing ones (whatever you would need to do to flip the rooms). And factor in the cost of permits and inspections or whatever--I would think those would cost more for something plumbing and gas related than for just moving stairs.

Also, if the outlets and light fixtures you would need for a kitchen are not already in the DR side, you would need to factor in the cost (labor, materials, permits) of opening the walls up to put those in, and perhaps also taking them out of the kitchen walls and filling in the holes, since it might look funny to have a bunch of outlets high up on what would now be the dining room wall.

Once you factor all that in (and more--I'm sure these examples I'm coming up with are not a complete list of the changes that would need to be made), and especially if your sink plumbing is already on that back wall and your gas is already where the range is shown, it may well be cheaper to move the stairs and fill in that back door than to flip the rooms. And even if it's not cheaper, as long as it's not massively more expensive it still might make sense for a few reasons:

(1) Less hassle and time--the less you have to open up walls, the less noise and dust there is, and the less in the way of potential accidents ("oops I cut through that wire, oops I poked a hole in that pipe" etc.--those problems are less likely if you just open the floor for the stairs, because the contractors can probably go to the basement and see where all the pipes/wires in the DR or LR floor are, and thus avoid them. Even if you have a finished basement ceiling they can peek inside it with less hassle than peeking inside a wall). Also, moving the stairs almost certainly will take less time than all the things that would have to be done to flip the rooms.

(2) Less risk--messing with plumbing, gas and electrical is not without risk. (Which reminds me: remember to call your homeowner's insurer before the remodel starts to tell them you're remodeling and make sure everything is a-ok with your coverage--i.e. make sure you're covered if, for example, a little fire or floor or wall collapse occurs.)

(3) Better storage. There's room for more storage if you leave the kitchen where it is, because there isn't a window on the wall where the range would go.

By the way, since your plan shrinks the LR/DR doorway, are you putting it where it is on that plan so that you can put an armchair to the right of the fireplace? I'm just asking because if not--if there's nothing you want to put to the right of the fireplace--you can scoot that doorway much further down, which gives you a longer stretch of living room wall. And also makes the fireplace visible from the kitchen and part of the DR, which might be nice.

Ideagirl- The only 2 windows in the current kitchen are along the east wall and both can be resized-relocated if necessary. I was not planning on putting the range next to a window.

DH is not crazy about moving the stairs. He likes the idea of closing the current DR opening and creating a new opening into the current kitchen (new DR).

Any other feedback out there? Since this is not my forever house it would be nice to hear what others thought. Do not have to be a layout guru either. Thanks!

I like your first layout from March 31, 13:14, but it has one major flaw. Your dining room table completely blocks your pathway. Seeing as this will become a major path in your home - to the kitchen, to the garage, to the back yard, to the basement. This is problematic. The reason Lavender's ideas worked was specifically because the bay window made space for the dining area that was out of major walkways. So, my suggestion will go back to how big of a priority a separate dining area is....

Would you consider removing the stools and doing a banquette that is built into the peninsula? I have seen pictures of this here, and while I'm not good at that, we have the very talented boxerpups that seems to be able to pull up photos of every imaginable use of kitchen space. A separate request might get her attention. Anyway, a bench built into the peninsula and under the window should move the table enough out of the way to make that plan a very good one.

DH is not crazy about moving the stairs.

Oh, of course not--he's thinking about it in the abstract, and in the abstract it sounds like a pain. But it doesn't make sense to decide what to do until you get quotes on what the work would cost. Come up with your best two possible layouts--one with moving the stairs, one without--and get quotes. Make sure that you factor into those quotes all the little things that would need to be done (I mean, if you flip the kitchen to avoid moving the stairs, factor in the cost of moving the plumbing and gas, doing all the new wiring, removing the old outlets and patching the holes, removing the existing kitchen cabinets and patching the walls; and if you keep the rooms where they are and move the stairs, factor in the cost of opening the floor and finishing around that opening, any additional carpentry that might need to be done such as reconfiguring the stairs if their new position means they need to turn halfway down instead of going straight, or whatever).

Even if one or both of you were passionately dead set on one particular layout, your passion might come to a screeching halt as soon as you got a quote for what that layout would cost. And you're NOT passionate about particular layouts yet. You've got one very good one that requires you to move the stairs (the one you posted 3/31 at 14:00) and one good one that requires you to move the garage door (3/31 at 13:14, the U-shaped top layout).

So get quotes on those two options, including quotes on moving stairs, plumbing, garage door, fixing walls etc. If one of those options costs $5000 less than the other, I'm guessing that would make your decision for you.

In other words it doesn't really matter what you or DH is crazy about right now, in the abstract. You've got two good plans; get quotes on them. If he for some reason believes having only one entrance to both those rooms is a fabulous idea, get quotes on that plan too (a version of it that does not involve having the range and sink across from each other). Getting quotes is free.

He likes the idea of closing the current DR opening and creating a new opening into the current kitchen (new DR).

On this whole thread I haven't seen a one-entrance plan that makes sense, and I can't imagine one, because no matter where you put or how you lay out the kitchen and DR, if you have one entrance from one end of the LR to those two rooms, you have a bowling alley.

If the entrance is where it is now, at the fireplace end of the LR, the LR feels like a bowling alley. If the entrance moves to the other end of the LR wall, the kitchen/DR feels like a bowling alley--because every time you come from or go into the garage, which I assume is a pretty common way for you guys to enter or leave the house, you have to walk through those two rooms. You can't just come inside and flop down in the fireplace armchair; you would have to walk through the kitchen and DR, into the LR, and then back down the whole length of the LR. If the rooms are flipped to avoid moving the stairs and the entrance is up where your DH wants it, you can't just get up from the armchair or from watching TV, pop into the kitchen to grab a snack or drink, and come back. You have to go back to the DR entrance and walk through the entire DR and kitchen and back.

Unless you want a doorway smack in the middle of your LR wall, one doorway will automatically give you a bowling alley. All you change by moving the entrance to one side or the other is which part of your house feels like a bowling alley. Right now it's the LR; moving the door and flipping the rooms will shift the bowling alley over to the kitchen/DR.

The only truly good (and it is quite good) flipped-rooms kitchen plan is that 3/31 at 13:14 one you posted, but killing that LR doorway doesn't improve it one iota. You can't put any kitchen storage where that doorway was, since that space is the traffic path from the garage. All it does is give you a looooong LR wall... but so what? Is the extra 12" or so of wall (see my earlier post about why you can have two doorways while losing MUCH less wall space than you think) worth turning your kitchen/DR into a bowling alley? You don't like bowling alley rooms. You already have one, the LR, and you're remodeling to change it. Putting the bowling alley on the other side of the LR wall is not an improvement worth paying thousands and thousands of dollars for.

BUT, that being said, if hubby for some reason loves that one-doorway idea, get two quotes for the 3/31 at 13:14 plan: one with the little doorway, and one with no doorway at all. And then go from there.

Control- do you mean you like the March 30 at 13:54 not March 31 at 13:14? Because I am confused about your comment about With the 13:54 idea I was planning on including a bay window but the IKEA software I am using does not allow for that.

But I would love to see photos of the banquette you described. I have seen the ones with morgue drawers but not ones that involve a peninsula.

Sorry controlfreakecs- I read Ideagirls post and now I see what the two of you are talking about. I do think quote based on specific layouts will help.

And make sure the quotes are itemized so you can compare apples to apples and also make sure they didn't leave out anything you need (such as refinishing the walls after you remove the existing cabinets, for the "flipping the rooms" option). The non-flipped layout you drew up has a much longer run of cabinets on the range wall, so you definitely want to see cabinets and counters priced out separately. That way, you can compare apples to apples by maybe chopping 15-20% off the cabinets/counters quotes for the non-flipped layout, just to see what it would cost for exactly the same kitchen (this lets you see the true cost of moving/not moving the stairs, in case you still need to have that discussion with your DH).

I found one picture, may try to find more. Sorry I didn't know how to link it into the post. Credit to The Design Box blog, don't know for sure where they got it from.

Here is a link that might be useful: banquette in peninsula

...but it should show the idea. Here's another island with banquette

Here is a link that might be useful:

Newbie- There are some great ideas here, but moving the stairs will be expensive. I've looked into that for my remodel and so far, no good news. I'll probably leave them in the same place, but just change direction...still expensive! Maybe you'll have better luck, in Chicago :)

As far as traffic patterns, I really like the one above, with the banquette. That's your plan, with the garage door moved down and a banquette in the corner. It gives you tons of storage, the prep sink and the range located, where you can converse and not have your back to people. My only idea would be to eventually change out that window for a slider or french doors out to the deck or patio. It would be much easier for entertaining, than the little entry at the top of the basement stairs. Been there, done that and would have loved another back exit!

I'm so glad you're getting more input this time! Have fun with the planning :)

I have a split style home with a planned layout similar to your last one on 3/31. Looks similar except I have about an extra 6' in the length (kitchen to DR) as well as no door to the garage on that side.

I think ideagirl2 has good ideas. You will want an opening on either end for easy access into the kitchen or DR side.

If the basement is unfinished, then swapping the steps might be a practical solution. A contractor can order a prefabricated set of steps to put in. If the closet in the hall is basically useless then this might be a good idea. Since its a ranch, then you should be able to flip it since there isn't another set of steps going up to a second story where then it would be impossible to flip them. However, this would mean you could not overlay another staircase on top of this one to expand for a second floor one day. You then would have to add another staircase somewhere else in the house and loose space.

Moving the utilities can be expensive and it can affect headroom or remodeling plans for the basement. It depends where the waste lines are located in the home more then anything, since they need pitch from the sink to the waste stack. If that waste stack is located where the steps are then the pipe will have to drop below the floor joists below, since they will run front to back, and you will loose headroom. Not a big deal if this ends up in a utility area.

Does the garage run all the way front to back? If so I would do the following to the plan noted above.

1) Move the garage doorway more to where the table is on the LR side. Thus, the door would start roughly where the table ends need the opening between the LR & DR. You then will be flipping the DR table and the door. This way when you come in from the garage you can enter into the LR or walk through the kitchen with Groceries. I would make the back window a sliding door. So the table is looking out the sliding door. It will make the room feel much bigger. I am putting in a nice 10' 4 panel sliding glass door for this very reason.

If in fact no furniture could be placed between the right side of the fireplace and the wall as you drew it, my last recommendation is more structural and one I am grappling with now in my own home. That would be to make the opening even wider between the LR and DR table area. If you look at your pic you posted of the fireplace. I would take that opening and open the fireplace side all the way to the wall. This will make it more open and feel less cramped. You could even have them cut the ceiling joists and put the beam up so that you have a flat ceiling in the opening. This is what I am contemplating now. You then can see the fireplace for the DR table and the kitchen area, when facing the peninsula. You also can extend a table out into the LR if you have larger company at holiday times.

todds- The basement is partially unfinished and the portion that is under the kitchen and DR is unfinished which is our utility area. Also the garage does run the entire width of the home. I understand what you are proposing and like the idea a lot. Again, my fear would be the cost of reversing the basement stairs--which again at this point is a complete unknown. I love the idea of sliding doors (well, patio door would be preferable just not practical given the small space.

Now todds, would you keep the opening into the kitchen from the LR? My DH is concerned that two openings will create what we have termed the "swiss cheese effect". Which I think would not be a big deal if our LR was wider.

Thanks again for your ideas!

Newbie- Just my humble opinion, but as long as you have two doors on that load bearing wall...you're going to have a traffic pattern through the middle of your living room. This can make it a challenge to set up furniture in any room, but especially a narrow one. Unfortunately, you'll probably end up with a hallway effect, if you still have that door, closest to the garage.

If your kitchen is on the left (closest to the garage) and your dining area on the right, I don't think you'll even miss the second door. Since you have a dining area that is open to the kitchen, you're walking by the table, rather than through a separate room, to get to the kitchen...so it won't feel closed off at all. If anything, I think it keeps people out of your work area, so I would see it as a plus, but only you know what will work best in your situation.

Whatever you and your DH decide, make sure you end up with a space that you love and can afford. The basement stairs are not perfect, but IMHO moving them is not worth losing your soapstone countertops or other upgrades in the kitchen. If budget was no object, that would be different...but if you do have a little money left over...think of the nice vacation you can take together, to recover from the remodel! :)

Lavender- I agree. I do not know what the cost of moving the stairs is but I know it is going to be more than moving plumbing 10 ft. DH and I already agree a vacation is in order-- and that is considering we have not even signed on the dotted line with a contractor or started demo. ;) I think both of us are very stressed at making a wrong decision. That is why any input is very important to us. We have saved for 3 years to do this remodel but do not want to spend money unnecessarily or even worse money that was not well thought out. I honestly think Lavender that you, me and DH think too much alike! ;)

I do not know what the cost of moving the stairs is but I know it is going to be more than moving plumbing 10 ft.

That sentence makes me smile. It is so cutely illogical. "I do not know how much X costs, yet somehow I know it costs more than Y"--even though at this point, you also don't know how much Y costs... and you're not factoring in what X really means (cost of moving plumbing AND gas lines, cost of capping off existing gas/plumbing, cost of installing the necessary wiring and outlets in what's now the DR, cost of patching/painting the kitchen walls once the cabinets and outlets are removed, etc. etc. etc., the whole panoply of room-flipping costs).

It does sound like you need a vacation. Others on these boards have mentioned the cardinal rule: do not go on vacation while contractors are in your house, because that gives them several days or however long you're gone to make mistakes that you won't be there to catch and that will be harder to fix the longer they remain in place. So definitely take one soon. And let us know how your plans evolve, we're interested and will be happy to help with whatever other questions arise.

Ideagirl- I DO NEED A VACATION!! Or at least a vacation from thinking about this kitchen remodel. I have met with several contractors who said that moving plumbing a few feet is not expensive b/c the basement underneath this area is unfinished. We also have to replace most of the plumbing since it is all original 1957. So I have seen that bill and frankly I am scared to see the bill for the stairs! ;) But I will check it out. I just would like to have a plan that involves moving stairs and one that does not so that I can be prepared to move forward whatever the news.

I say go with the last sketch you posted that I referred to with changes I suggested, if moving the stairs is an affordable option.

If not, then I like the third sketch up, from the bottom of this post.

The negatives of this sketch are that the view from the front door will be the table in the kitchen. Also, if you want to do laundry in the basement, you have to circumnavigate the table. However, the garage door location, in that drawing is where I was referring in the previous post, to where the placement should be on the last drawing, if you moved the stairs.

Moving the stairs alleviates the need to come through the kitchen to get into the basement. Keeps that traffic out of the kitchen.

In response to your questions to me in the post above:
I do not think multiple opening will be swiss cheese in the wall. I would keep the opening to the LR and as I indicated, I probably would make it wider, if not too costly. If anything the added opening will make the individual rooms feel larger. The LR won't feel like a narrow tunnel.

I also do not understand what the issue would be with traffic moving from the garage through the LR. Why would you want the traffic to have to move through the kitchen? You want options to keep the flow out of the area so if you are working there that others do not get in your way. I see that you have your couch on the wall between the LR and kitchen (at least in the photo posted above). I personally would move the couch to the outside all under the window. Put a flat screen TV on the wall between the kitchen and LR (where the couch is now) This also free's up a walkway along this wall for those to walk between the garage to other areas of the house. You would only want to walk into or through the kitchen, if you went food shopping and needed to put groceries away. Also, putting the couch on the outside wall under the windows then has the couch facing the table, in the last drawing, so it a better setup for conversation to those that may be in and out of the kitchen area. It brings the two spaces more together IMO.

I have met with several contractors who said that moving plumbing a few feet is not expensive b/c the basement underneath this area is unfinished.

Right, sure. But "moving the plumbing" is about 1/3 of the job, tops. There's also gas, patching/painting the walls in the former kitchen after moving the cabinets, electrical etc., all the stuff I mentioned above.

And remember the other advantage of moving the stairs--you could have a full-height bathroom closet. Which means either you get more storage, or you have the option of putting a stacked washer and dryer in that closet so laundry doesn't have to go to the basement anymore.

ideagirl2,

I am a little confused on the gaining a full height closet or putting the washer and dryer in there if you switch the stairs. Where was your proposed opening for the staircase if it was swapped?

I am thinking that the existing closet now becomes the door to the basement. The only extra room would be at the far end, where the existing back door would be. This door would then be closed up and the opening closed on the kitchen side. The only place then to add a closet would be in the bathroom itself. I would think then you would have the same half height issue the other way.