So do you want guests to be able to freely access this counter for desserts and coffee (more open), or is it just your spot to ready things (more private)?

I would put the microwave between the range and refrig, whether in a drawer, or up. We have ours on the bottom shelf of an upper cabinet.

How about a nice buffet or hutch on the DR side that backs up to the hutch on the kitchen side? You could add one more cabinet to the sink wall run so it comes out flush with the new unit, making it look more built in. But maybe that's too much taken from the dining room?...I like dining rooms that are more rectangular than square, since they seem to suit a table better...But that may not be your opinion, or maybe your table fits the room differently.

That does seem like the right spot for the MW -- my concern was that might put it too much in the middle of things (though not really an issue too often). Putting it between fridge and range breaks up the sight line too much, detracting from the range. Do you know if you can put a cabinet door over front of a MW that's in a wall cab? (I guess it would have to be an extra deep cab.)

You are getting at the precise questions I'm having trouble nailing down, ie, how can I fit in a BP that could alternate between private and public. Your DR hutch idea is nice (we have an existing credenza/buffet that we are planning to put in that spot), and it is something that we could build-in later without needing to move walls (which definitely has its positives). In a bit, I'm going to upload another sketched idea we had, though I now believe it makes the space too cramped.

Here is one idea. I hope you can read it well enough.

To keep it from interfering with the focal point range, I'd keep the microwave close to the fridge. Most things go from fridge or freezer to microwave, anyway. I'm including a rendering of what our kitchen is supposed to look like when it's finished, with the microwave on the same wall as the rangetop. Yours would even be more separated. I suppose we could've put on one of those doors that lifts up and slides back...or a set that open sideways, but we use our microwave too much to want it covered.

I just don't know how to get a butler's pantry as substantial as you'd like in the plan without robbing too much from the kitchen or dining room. I think it would require significant changes to the plan.

Is that only 2'9" of space to get from kitchen to DR? I don't think that's enough. Seems like you'd be creating a traffic jam there Can you move the door opening a little further south, creating more space?

OK I have to ask some questions. What do you want from your butler's pantry? In other words, how do you want it to function? What is it you don't have with your current layout that's missing for you?

Also, what's the ''Morning Room''? And what is the purpose of the large pantry near that, the stairs and the desk? Is there a reason you can't move the door opening from the Morning Room and incorporate a BP with your large pantry?

How much time will you spend in your family room? How many people are in your family? Does it make more sense to lose the kitchen seating (as you have bar stools and the dining room is very close by) and make your BP more accessible to the FR? Functionality of a BP is key. Just to have one for the sake of it doesn't make sense if your layout doesn't work. I think something's gotta give if it's that important to you...either the eat-in kitchen and space from the family room or morning room.

With your current layout, I would probably attach a cabinet from the ceiling between the kitchen and dining room with glass doors on both sides, so you can put away dishes from the kitchen and access them from the dining room. If you leave the space open underneath (a ceiling mounted upper cabinet) you have access to the dining room and the room becomes more open. (That doesn't work of course if you don't want to see the mess from the kitchen from the dining room.)

Just from my personal experience, my BP works because I don't have room for more than three to eat in my kitchen. If there are four or more, I'm forced to use my dining room which is why having that small space there works for me. Mine is also close to my den, which makes fetching drinks and using the microwave pretty easy. I used to have a bar fridge in the closet in my den, and it was wonderful not to have to leave the room to get drinks while watching tv. Could relocating a BP nearer to your Family Room serve a similar purpose?

The best BP's (IMO) work because they solve a problem. You'll need to figure out what the greatest benefit to having a ''satellite station'' would be to you and your family. Try not to think in the traditional sense of accessing it from the dining room if the need isn't actually there. Instead, think about how it could benefit you... Grabbing drinks or lunches on your way out the door? (The location of mine works really well for this, which I Love.) Or support for the other rooms in your home? Depending on what you're Morning Room is going to be used for, this might be a better location for a coffee and beverage area.

Starfish, one function of a butler's pantry that hasn't really been it is that it functions as a transition between the dining and kitchen spaces and moods so they don't feel right on top of each other. That's actually a nice thing to have.

I personally wouldn't give up precious limited dining room space for it, though. After all, the ability to serve the number of people you wish to (and ideally fairly comfortably) IS the function of the DR.

What I would suggest as a possibility is that you could take the cabinet space on each side of the doorway, turn it sideways, frame it in, and then furnish the available 18" or so between walls attractively as your transition/storage/mini-staging area. It wouldn't provide much counter space, but enough to hold dessert or refills; 18" of cabinets actually stores a lot; and 18" of transition would provide that emotional separation between the mess and clatter of your kitchen and the gracious calm of your dining room.

Re the microwave, is there any reason you couldn't put it in the island to the right of the prep sink? We put ours there, so it would be out of sight, and while I had a slight reservation about bending to use it, we are not heavy microwavers (just reheat leftovers and coffee) so it hasn't been an issue.

Oh, wow, you are all awesome for taking the time to do this. Thank you. Very good questions that I need to think carefully about. In the meantime, I am posting below an idea very similar to houseful's (we had considered this because it's a central place for a bar, and I thought it be be neat to see the BP area off to the side when guests were circulating in the FR/DR/Kit area). We could make that walkway 3' wide, but, while enough for a bar area, malhgold is right that that would create a bottleneck if we were to serve others there... though I get that emotional separation (I love that concept, rosie!)

Claire -- I'm going to answer the easy questions first: 4 in our family. We cook a lot (except tonight, when I ironically had to ge ttake-out because I was so obsessed with trying to figure this out), entertain a lot (mostly smaller dinner parties, but occasionally the larger ones). I hate for anyone to see the mess I make when cooking, so glass cabs b/w Kit and DR would not work for me. The "pantry" is all my food storage. The morning room and family room both open up to deck all across back of house. The FR will have the main TV over the fireplace, and the MR will be much simpler - 4 cushy chairs with an ottoman in middle -- good for playing family board games. We like the "flow" in this house and are opening up all the rooms to each other, so it's easier to circulate. Re: bar, there actually is a small bar area in the FR (too small though), and it is a priority to relocate that area closer to the kitchen (it will end up being in the "hutch" if I can't fit in a BP. I really like your idea of having the BP be near the FR area (and DR) -- that is where it would be most useful.

As to why exactly I want this and what problem it would be solving, I don't have good answers...I want it partly for shallow reasons (looks, coolness factor, resale), partly so that we can have a bar that isn't in my kitchen, and partly to separate the Kit and DR. Am I being ridiculous?

north40, I would love to put the MW in the island, and that's really why I'm considering the drawer (i hear dacor is now making one also?). I have a tall family (other than moi) so was worried about them bending down to use, or me bending down to clean).

I love the new plan. It brings the dish storage closer to the cleanup area, and it still can have some cool character and style. And your butler's pantry is open and can be seen, yet definitely private from the dining room, and it makes that separation between the 2 rooms.

OT: I think you'll want a trash pullout in your cleanup area. It looks like you're planning quite a sink!

Microwave:

Like refrigerators, MWs work best on the perimeter of your kitchen. Both appliances are used not only for prepping/cooking/cleaning up but also for snacking. With the MW and refrigerator on the perimeter, snackers can come by and use them w/o interfering with the work being done in the kitchen. As to proximity to each other...most MW cooking is really food from the refrigerator/freezer to MW and most snacking that involves the MW is similar (plus popcorn!) So, IMHO, the ideal place for your MW is, as RHome pointed out, b/w the refrigerator and range.

If you put the MW in the island to the right of the prep sink, it will be right "in the thick of things" and anyone trying to get/make a snack will be in the way of someone working at the prep sink, island, or cooktop.

As to a door to enclose the MW when not in use, Alku05 has one...hers is under counter, behind doors that open out and in (so they don't stick out into the aisle.) See the thread linked below for pictures of her MW w/doors open & closed.

Butler's Pantry:

I like the new layout. It takes very little room from either the DR or kitchen but gains that "private" area that you want. It's also close to the FR. You know, if you don't mind losing a couple of feet in the table area, you could make it a little bit bigger and incorporate a bar as well as a staging area for food for the DR.

Double Wall Ovens:

You might consider recessing your ovens similar to what Alku05 did.

BTW...I had to laugh about the 2'9" doorway...our old DR doorway, that we lived with for over 12 years, was only 2'9". It's fine as long as 2 people aren't going through at once...and even then it wasn't too bad.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread: Pics/Ideas re Raising 1 End of Island for Micro

Buehl, I noticed the small doorway too, however your plan looks good.

The only thing that bugs me is that it's awkward bringing dirty dishes in from the dining room back to the kitchen. If you could put some kind of a pass-through (sliding doors in the backsplash perhaps?) from the dining room straight to the kitchen counter, you wouldn't have to bus the dishes so far, nor bump into people coming as you're going through the BP.

I agree about it being far to bus dishes, claire, which is why we were originally thinking about moving the doorway between Kit and DR down to front of house (clean-up row). If I can figure that out (do people use pass-throughs with sliding doors still??), do you think we will get jammed up in that BP area if all we serve there are drinks (not dessert, etc.)? I don't think I can make it larger and have counters on both sides, Buehl, as we cannot move that wall between FR and DR (throws off all kinds of symmetry elsewhere), so we need to be a little stingy about taking too much DR space.

rhome -- I have not really "planned" my sink yet -- just wanted to leave plenty of space at this point in case I need it! I love your dish storage area (what do you call it?), with the extra deep cabs coming all the way down to counter. That is what I wanted to do to left of sink area, with appliance garages on bottom. Might shift that over if we put lazy susan in that corner.

I was planning to put trash pull-out under sink, but will have to see how big that one can be. Larger one with recycling bin also can stay in island near fridge.

MW: Yes, I have seen alku's MW on that thread. I am not so concerned about hiding the MW if it's down low -- just if up high in an upper cab (and on my long "range" wall). Though I guess you can do that only if you set it on a shelf, as opposed to attaching under a cabinet. Will talk to cabinet folks about that.

Ovens: Thanks for the link to the recessed ovens -- does that save significant space (counter, floor, or cab space)?

Finally, Buehl, what kind of program is that you're using? I'd love to be able to make quick changes like that.

LOL!! The "program" I used was MS PowerPoint! I copied your picture into PPT and then made little 1'x1' and 2'x2' boxes based on the squares in the pic and then just put them down & expanded/retracted as needed! The circle seats are just "ovals" and the range circles are from the "flowchart" autoshapes. Where I had to "erase" stuff, I just put in a rectangle and made the "Fill" white and "No Lines".

It actually does take a little time. I suspect if I had one of those CAD programs I could do it faster...but I don't so I make do!

We did the glass cabinets between kitchen and dr. I don't think you need to worry about seeing the kitchen mess through the cabinet. The eye just isn't drawn "through" the cabinet into the next room and also the dishes block the view (I can't see from one room into the other even when I try.) I like having the connection between the rooms with the light (or daylight) coming through while maintaining some privacy in the kitchen. And of course, while seated, the glass cabinets are too high to see through. We closed the pass through with cabinet doors to give a hutch-like feel (and to block views of the kitchen.)

"hutch" from kitchen side and dr side.

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That is neat. I'm trying it myself now.

Sorry -- I meant PPT technique was neat.
Zelmar, nice cabs! Do you actually use that pass-thru, or just walk around?

I rarely use it as a pass-through but will sometimes place something like soup or salad there so others can grab a bowl and serve themselves. Same with dessert--the dessert can be ready and waiting and dessert stuff can be put on the table without getting in the way of table clearing. We hope to put a door to the outside (back yard on shady north side) in the dr near the hutch. Theoretically, I'll be able to get stuff ready for the grill in the kitchen and place it there so that dh can come grab it. We'll see.

Dish Storage: I just call it a 'dish hutch' and it will be a cabinet that sits on top of the counter. It will only be 40" wide, and I wish it could be bigger.

I'm not a big fan of corners, so I might consider not wrapping around the corner to the sink and have hutches all the way to the window wall. But I can also see where you might want the symmetry of those cabinets coming around. In that case I think you could still start the hutches (or glass front cabinets with the appliance garages below) on the side.

My whole life I lived in houses with 30" doorways, and now 33" is too small? Only here have I heard everyone gasp if doorways aren't at least 36". We have 2 between our kitchen and dining room...Their rough openings were 2'8", so they're now smaller. I guess if you're narrowing a longer walkway to that it could get tight. All of our bedroom, bathroom, and closet doors in our brand new house are 2'6".

I knew I must be missing some negative to the plan. It really is a long way to bus dishes. Maybe the pass-through could be what separates your dish storage from the lazy susan and other cabs that wrap toward the sink.

Unless you plan for it, you will have the same problem I have...You're warming up a cup of something at the microwave and want to stir it, but your silverware is all housed over in the dish storage, kitty-corner across the kitchen and around the island. Of course, you'll probably have a drawer under yours, which you can see, I don't. :-\

I'm glad you all are mentioning the distance to clean-up area, because I had not really focused on that. Right now, in current house, I bus from DR through breakfast area to sink. Not sure this would be much farther, but I guess that was the advantage to moving the door down that wall. Hmmm...at least this helps me calculate what I need to compromise on to get this butler's pantry. Please, everyone, bring on some more potential negatives!

Good tip re silverware near MW. I'm planning to have some silverware in cooking utensils drawer near range, not only for stirring things, but tasting as I cook!

Make that silverware WAY different than your regular kind, so you have hope that the kids will notice the difference and put it in the place you need it. ;-D

(Can you tell I have problems getting my crew to put things away in the right places?...)

I can see zelmar's hutch as solving a lot of problems. You wouldn't actually need that stretch for counter space (between the kitchen and the DR) AND it would be extremely handy to put your dishes away there since it's so close to the DW(s). I love the lower solid double doors (where Zelmar or family member is peeking through) to use as a pass-through for busing dishes.

You ask, Do you think we will get jammed up in that BP area if all we serve there are drinks? YES, ABSOLUTELY. I know this because my old kitchen is where my current BP is, and had a very similar walkway to what you are planning. I called it ''Kitchen As Pathway'' because it was the path to everywhere and the traffic jams were terrible. The path measured 36 inches, which seems like it should be large enough to go around each other, but trust me, it isn't. That Frustration was the entire reason for adding on a kitchen in the first place! (In that respect, I think a pass-through for dishes is essential.) Even serving drinks, the BP will be the place of much coming and going. The beverage counter is my husband's favorite place about our entire kitchen, and probably one of the most used areas in the house. Knowing from my previous KitchenAsPathway experience, that will be the first place to get constipated. In my mind, if you decided to do the hutch, you wouldn't actually need the extra counter space on the kitchen side. I would prefer to see you leave the walkway more open in the BP space. If it's a storage issue, perhaps you could use the 3 inch space between the studs for glass storage instead of clogging the path with another counter. If you absolutely need a place to put more things down in there, a shallow ledge (4-6 inches) would probably suffice better than a full sized counter. I have ledge storage in my bathroom and it works incredibly well if you think about how much stuff there is to clutter up a bathroom.

Is it me, it looks like the breakfast area to clean up sink is further than the dining room to the clean up sink?

I do agree though that I wouldn't want to be walking thru that 36" aisle with dishes to get to the sink. I could see people trying to get in while others are trying to get out with dirty dishes. Or...people trying to get in with hot food while someone is trying to get out. I would think at least a 42" passageway would be good.

So this just dawned on me. I have a 5ft doorway open from my kitchen to my Great Room(fairly busy passageway) where I was/am considering a snack area that would be 24" deep. So, that would reduce the clearance space to 3ft., which is what I think you have now in your layout. Most thought it was doable, but some thought it was tight. And we wouldn't be walking in and out of there with dirty dishes and hot food. On the other hand, that space probably gets a lot more daily activity, I'm thinking, than your DR. I'm thinking you don't use it on a daily basis?

We definitely don't use DR on a daily basis (but do use the bar just about that often). Also, we do have a 5' wide doorway between FR and DR (has doors now, but we're removing them). So, if it got really busy -- with hot food coming in, and dirty dishes going out (and, assuming I had help with this and was not just doing everything on my own:))-- we could use that as an alternate entrance into the DR.

How long a snack area are you thinking of creating, and would just that passageway be 3' wide? I think a relatively short 3' walkway would not be as constricting as one that was just 3' for longer. Does this make sense? If yours would be 3' wide just at the doorway, I think it would be fine.

Have been considering a second entrance to the Great Room thru the DR. Long layout story that is not yet finalized(laughing at myself as I've been at this for about a year). I'm going to have to revisit this scenario. Thanks for bringing this up!!!! Maybe it has all come full circle....or maybe I'm just spinning in circles!

mahlgold -- I was curious, so I checked out your threads. LOVE the snack center idea in your kitchen (whichever layout you decided to go with)! You have plenty of space and are not "cramming" like I would be. That vestibule to your great room is exactly the type of space I am looking for (could not tell where your DR was, but I imagine it's off to side there). Wish I could just make a decision...about anything -- layout, cabinets, appliances. Maybe this weekend....

Wish I could make a decision too.....maybe we can cheer eachother on. This post has definitely made me reconsider that snack area over there. I took a quick stab at the layout last night after reading this and if I do put the snack area in that vestibule, it has helped me resolve an issue I had with adding the opening to the DR from the GR. So indirectly, you may have helped me with my layout. Thanks....hopefully we all helped with yours.

I would be happy to cheer you, and anyone else in this position, on. You all have been so helpful (on so many topics, most of which I just eavesdrop on) ... much more than my dear friends or family (not that I trust, ahem, I mean, burden them with my issues).

So, here is our latest idea, this one from my DH who will be the primary user of the BP/bar. Does not encroach on DR as much as prior. If I can deal with the bussing distance from DR to sink, what do y'all think?

Is that the microwave on the wall backing up to the dining room? I'm hoping not.

Will someone be making a drink while you are trying to set the table or get hot food to it? While I think 30" is wide enough for doorways, I'm not sure about 2 people trying to navigate it at once. Would you really try for French doors there? They'd each be pretty skinny.

Simply speaking, angling the doorway doesn't make the pathway any bigger. (Shorter, YES, not any wider.) I don't think you actually realize the physical problem you're creating for yourself. Take that dimension and mark it out in one of your regular pathways with newspaper. Trying going back and forth with a tray, while someone is standing in the pathway making drinks. If you look at your drawing, you've allowed as much space (with elbow room) for a chair at the table as you have for your pathway. The chair is a destination...the pathway is not. You Need More Room.

Why don't you just shorten the amount of kitchen counter space that flanks the dining room to get the room you need for the path?

...look at the distance between the third chair and the end of the counter in the BP. There's not much of a walkway there either; certainly no more than the BP. I think once you physically lay out the space and try to move easily through there, you'll see immediately what the problem is. It's great that you have alternate space to move through from the FR, but having to check what's going on in the kitchen first before you change course to move the other direction, shouldn't really have to be an option.

You can easily move the placement of the chairs (on the angle from the wall) at the round table in the kitchen for space enough to pull out the chairs. If you leave them as is however, there's no room to pull out those chairs against the wall to actually physically sit down.

The good news is you have miles of counter space, especially when you look at the island, and count what you've added with the BP. Giving some counter/cabinet space up in the kitchen for a wider walkway really shouldn't be problematic to make the layout actually work for you, if indeed this type of space is what you really want. There will still be plenty of room to have your entire family working together in the kitchen, but only as long as you can go around each other!

Since your DR and FR walls don't appear to line up, could you take the BP and move it Up on your plan, splitting the aisle difference equally between the FR and the BP?

oy! OK, I hear you...and appreciate your advice so much. You are right about not leaving enough space (we put masking tape down on our floor tonight and did some role-playing serving drinks and dinner to the dining room; I kept telling DH to get out of my way). Claire, my drawing is off...those walls are supposed to line up, but I'm going to look at how much sofa space I have in the FR to see whether it makes sense to move things "up." Also, thank you for reminding me that there are miles of counter space. I just want to make sure I'm getting the most use (and most interest) out of those miles.

rhome, I knew the MW was going to raise eyebrows. We seem to use our MW primarily for heating up the occasional leftovers, popcorn, heating up coffee, boiling water for tea, and sometimes making a quick snack from freezer. Since much of that does not actually involve me, I was hoping to banish the MW to the perimeter (over near our beverage counter). And, most important, I just don't want to see it on my "range wall."

But I do hear you both, and you are right (if you care, my designer agrees with you). I really am trying to "cram" this BP in. But I might keep tweaking and trying....

You have somewhat supported my argument about the microwave. Look how far to bring leftovers from the fridge and snacks from the freezer. Do you ever thaw things out, or start them in the microwave and finish them in the oven or on the stove?

Beside the fridge, up or with the drawer, or a drawer next to the island sink keep it near the fridge, near the snackers' seating, and pretty much out of your work area.

If you want to enclose it more, would it wreck your range wall too much to move the range to the left a bit and put a cabinet next the fridge that is deeper and comes all the way down to the counter? Then it could be covered, like you talked about above.

That's a lot of wall (and a lot of usable kitchen space) to save to showcase the 3 ft of rangetop...But it sounds important to you.

Moving the range closer to the wall ovens as rhome suggests is a very good idea, especially since your range doesn't actually line up with anything in particular. I don't need that much space next to my range to really cook, and you'll have the island across from it as well. Putting the microwave near the fridge however is crucial. Having to walk around your island every time you want to use your microwave will make you crazy. Also, I don't know where you're putting your trash storage, but next to the fridge, near the pantry and the entry to the garage is the best place for it.

Most of the working portion of your kitchen in your current kitchen plan is where the range, fridge and little sink are. If you move your cook top a little closer to the main clean up sink, it will be much easier to wash pots and pans there. In my kitchen, the main ''clean up'' sink is farthest from my fridge and range, very similar to your plan. I realized I would be using my ''prep'' sink (the one closest to the range/fridge) as much as the ''main'' sink, so I made it almost as large as the clean up sink. What I've actually found is I use it as much for cleaning up pots and pans as I do for prep work. In that respect, moving the range closer to your biggest sink would be a wise choice.

The counter space on the DR side of the kitchen seems excessive. How were you planning on using that space? I have an 8 foot length of counter with my island. The rest of my counters are much shorter in length; I think my longest stretch is four feet of space. That is plenty of space for individual ''stations'', even if I were teaching a cooking class. Your kitchen is Huge; I think you can have what you want from it as long as you're flexible enough to design space that will work for you.

Yes, I agree those counters seem v. long. I was trying to make the range the focal point of the room since it's the center of that long cabinet wall, but I think we have gone overboard in trying to keep other appliances off that wall. I should clear my mind and start from scratch (v. quickly, as we are getting estimates from contractors). Or maybe I should find a really good KD right away.

The main trash p/o is to left of prep sink (on fridge side), so that can stay. The MW will not be an issue if I decide to get an Advantium and single wall oven (though I'm still not convinced of that), but, if I don't, I now agree that it does belong over near fridge. Thank you for making me finally see that. OK, now, back to the drawing board....

This is quite a bit different in feeling. Is enormous butlers pantry and tighter kitchen layout. Might spark a new idea.

You could have anything between an icemaker to a small fridge there and all the barware, plates and service ware. The prep area gets one of those new cool 18" steam dishwashers for pots, pans, bowls, etc. I had assumed a range, but the currently labeled "hutch" would make a great baking area.
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Wow -- you win the prize for thinking outside the box! Are those walls/counters or some other partition? While I think this would be fantastic for DR dinner parties, I fear the designated dishwasher on regular family nights would get lonely. Also would limit the natural light coming in from front window. So funny that you're mentioning inductions though -- I had just started looking at those today. Thank you for helping.