Susan, it seems to me the only way to control this dog is thru the owner. Is she unreasonable? Tell her Little Snappy has bitten and hurt you and cannot be allowed to do it again. IMHO, she must keep it onleash and enforce a SIT STAY whenever it shows aggression. It would be very nice of you to work with her, but only if she makes sure you are safe and only if she is serious about correcting the dog.

Sounds like she isn't listening to the trainer..........if she's actually talked to the trainer........and is going to use her own technique to stop the biting. I'm not a believer of using treats to win over a biting dog. He should accept you into the household because his owner has made the decision to welcome you...........not him. He's definitely the alpha and when you enter his territory he lets you know.

She's got to learn how to get control of the dog..........always with a leash!

If the dog bites when people come in the door, then keep him away from the door - DOH!! Before your friend opens the door, she should park the dog in another room with a baby gate.

On walks, he must be kept on a short leash until he is trained not to bite. Does your friend want to be liable for a bite to a child?

Don't flame me, but I am tired of seeing folks who can't deal with a biting dog, and watch it escalate and escalate.
All dogs are different. If I got a dog who didn't have bite inhibition, I wouldn't stop until I had him trained for total bite inhibition. And if it was an aggressive dog that actually bit ME - the owner?, I'd do the roll-on-the-back and hand-on-the-throat method whenever the dog acted up. This is not a method to use on most dogs - it's extreme. But biting your owner is an extreme situation. I've seen the method work very effectively with a couple of friends now.

If you get a dog that is very aggressive and could harm other dogs and people, you need to get on that like flies on shirt! No messing around. Zero tolerance.

Thanks everyone. I agree completely with all of your advice, and that it's an owner issue. I'm disappointed that I'm not getting any sense of urgency from her that this behavior has to stop NOW, TODAY. For example, after last night's incident she apologized and then said, "No one has come to the house yet to do the exercise with giving out treats by the door." As if that is guaranteed to automatically resolve it once and for all.

I'll have to decide how to proceed, because I don't want an issue with her dog to spill over into other areas. A number of years ago we had a major falling-out over an incident when her previous dog attacked one of my cats, and I felt that she didn't adequately anticipate or prevent the incident (I saw it coming, but was too far away to step in immediately) or regain control over her dog once it began (I wound up corraling him and escorting him outside while she basically just stood there.) We wound up not speaking for several years, and I really don't want that to happen again, because she's a great friend in all other respects. But it's starting to remind me of the "good girl/bad boy" situation where you have a really nice friend who insists on staying with, making excuses for, and defending a really awful boyfriend no matter how badly he behaves!

The sad part about the current situation is that before acquiring this dog, my friend did some short-term fostering for a rescue group and let an absolute gem of a pup slip away because she wasn't yet ready to make the permanent commitment (he was adopted by someone I work with who can't say enough great things about how he's working out.) A month or so later, she falls in love with this one's picture on a rescue website, and it's a done deal.

No big mystery why this one wound up in a shelter, huh?

Susan

The dog needs to be leashed until his "obedience" training is completed (for some dogs that never happens with any reliability). The dog doesn't know who's in charge. And he will never know as long as he is permitted to act ferociously without consequence (off leash). Psychologically, the dog is not prepared for the "real world". And the only way for him to get there is obedience work; and that means ON leash all the time. It is the only way your friend can exert the control/corrections that will bouy the dog's confidence in his owner and his status.

Don't you just feel so bad for rescue dogs that come to loving households with all that "unknown" baggage?! Poor little thing, if he could talk he'd share his history.

Our dog is a shelter dog. I NEVER allow him to greet new people off leash. He's 100 lbs. and leashing him is the only way I can "save him from himself", and guarantee he won't jump on someone. But he's really reliable now! I am able to allow him to "greet" several customers off leash. "4 on the floor" gets him where he wants to be... "hangin' with the crowd". He knows the gas and oil delivery guys, the meter reader, and the mail carrier. They know him and they know NOT to give treats, just a friendly, "Hi! good boy!" and keep their hands low for a quick pat.

What's an even bigger mystery is why the shelter homed a dog with this behavior. My understanding is that dogs with this problem are not homed.

next time he bites try the drop back and punt method, followed with the spin around and backhand the owner move.......he-he

ZERO TOLERANCE someone said.

Smack the dog - don't be afraid - he deserves it! Be tough - HE is. I adore my dogs but if they need some physical discipline - I give it!! I bet you'll only need to do it twice before he learns that that is NOT ok.

vicky

Smacking a dog makes the dog afraid of you, fear can make things worse, and the dog can become a fear biter...You can easily train a dog without laying a hand on it. I had a problem with my dog once, with one person, who he charged, it was only that one person, but IF you really wantto help I would suggest you go get some baseball shin protectors and help out your friend and her dog. It is what the behaviorist suggested this one person do with my dog, teach the dog a different way to behave while you are standing or walking in front of the dog. A couple of times of stern harsh correction should let the trainer determine if this is going to be an issue which might need more training or not.

Smack the dog?
What bass ackwards land of behavioral science are you livin' in, hun?

I agree with ginaw, I had a rescue dog years ago that was a sweetie when we first got him that developed into aggressiveness after we got him home. No one could get around my husband or me. Our trainer suggested the roll- on-the-back, hand-on-the-neck with a firm NO. It worked. We always had him on a short leash, even in the house when we had friends over. He soon learned very quickly that his bad behavior was NOT acceptable and he turned out to be a good dog with alot of firm and consistent discipline and patience. I was told that hitting or smacking a dog will futher increase their tendency to be agressive so I never have smacked or hit my dogs. It might work for others, maybe. I just don't agree with that form of discipline.

Jesus, don't smack the dog! You'll only train him not to give any warning at all. No growling, no nothing. And the next time he bites, the end result may be far more serious.

What's it going to take for your friend? She's lucky she hasn't been sued. She will be. It may be a neighbor, the FedEx guy, even a child trick or treating. If that's not enough to scare her, let her know she'll likely have her homeowners' insurance canceled. That dog does not need simple obedience. He needs to go for aggression training, or better yet, working with a trainer at home.

I agree with Girlwithaspirin. You are incredibly tolerant of the situation, and you friend does not see the seriousness of it. If the dog will bite you, it will certainly bite others, could even be a child. The dog owner would probably say she is careful to keep the dog away from kids, but things happen.

"Smack the dog - don't be afraid - he deserves it! Be tough - HE is. I adore my dogs but if they need some physical discipline - I give it!! I bet you'll only need to do it twice before he learns that that is NOT ok. "

Vicky, some reading suggestions for you:

The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell
Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson

As others have said, dogs don't respond to physical punishment or the archaic 'alpha rolls' which some describe.
That will only cause more behavior problems.

Susan, Ask your friend to gate the dog in another room when you visit. Her current training plan is not going to solve the dogs larger problems. The aggression could be treated with a very consistent NILIF program with the dog working for every privilege so that he respects his owner's direction, and stops feeling that he is in charge and has to protect her.

****"dogs don't respond to physical punishment or the archaic 'alpha rolls' which some describe"***

The alpha roll, when done correctly , is not considered archaic. For certain aggressive, strong breeds (and sometimes little ones) it is often a necessary step in training.

Deciding if an alpha roll is needed, or will work, depends on the mentality of the dog and the knowledge and capability of the trainer/owner .

On second thought, this friend doesn't sound capable of doing the training needed on this aggressive dog. I've seen the "alpha roll" work - again it is NOT for most dogs and I'll add that you need to be an assertive person to do it correctly. I've never done this to my own dog, who is non-aggressive, submissive to me and sensitive to verbal commands.

If you are a passive person, as your friend may be, she probably won't be able to do it effectively. It does need to be part of overall training, and the "Nothing-in-life-is-free" methodology is a must for dominant/aggressive dogs. I think a lot of people are just not up to performing this level of training.

Just like the TV shows with the nannies, many parents can barely stand up to their own children to instill discipline. Many dog owners are the same. She needs to get a professional trainer. And if that doesn't work or he falls back into his dominant behavior, she may have to return him to the shelter.

I have to agree with Annz on the "alpha role" thing, Cynthia. Your experience with off-track Greyhounds is leagues away from my own with a large, untrained, unsocialized Shepherd/Mastiff cross. The breed personalities are different because the breeds were developed for different purposes.

If I hadn't assumed the "alpha" position and ENFORCED IT REPEATEDLY I'd have gotten nowhere-FAST with Rex. This was something the trainers in our obedience classes stressed time and again. We were repeatedly used as the "example" in class. When Rex acted like a jerk we corrected him, quickly and with seemingly brutal force. He is a big, powerful dog and at that time he'd had everything his "own way" by being a jerk and pushing the point until his (former) timid owners gave in. It was crucial that we were willing to "take a stand", face him down and enforce the hierarchy. We had to do it several times to ward off the challenges, too. And we didn't have to "beat him into submission", we simply had to repeatedly "put him in his place" when he got too big for his britches. We followed the strong and stern corrections with an "easy" command. And then lavish praise for compliance.

I'll be quite frank, if the dog in question had bitten me, I may very well have taken matters into my own hands, too. Dogs that bite are not OK, just the way horses that bite and kick are not OK.

Did any of you hear the Diane Rehm show last week when her guest was Jonathan Katz? it was about his struggle with a Border collie named Orson that ended with euthanization. Very touching and very sobering.

Annz, the whole premise of 'alpha rolls' is based on fiction. In nature an alpha dog does NOT roll another dog onto it's back. Neither do wolves. The less dominant dog voluntarily shows it's belly as a signal of appeasement. It is never physically forced into that position by the other dog. Forcing dogs onto their backs can and will result in defensive aggression. The authors of 'How to be your dog's Best Friend; (The Monks of Skeet) were the first to recommend Alpha Rollovers, and later apologized(!) for their error in ever advising this action. They admitted they were wrong! Sadly, there are still some trainers with poor practices.

Chelone - The Alpha role is desirable. The Alpha Roll, forcing a dog onto it's back, was the subject of my remarks and Annz's.

Interestingly, Cynthia, when we were in class and I "got on his case" he rolled over on his own and the trainer told me to enforce the point by standing over him and repeating, "NO!" It was a turning point.

Have you taken an obedience class with any of your Greys?

Unrelated, but curious: how did the whole court thing play out? hope it was OK.

I've become so accustomed to misspellings that I tend to "roll" right by them. ;)

Evidently, I managed to rolL right past the real intent. But, nonetheless, no reply has been made. I think those of us who are committed to obedience know who we are. Roles and rolls are linked, how connected they are is, apparently, up for debate!

So, Cynthia, have you ever taken an obedience class?
How did the whole court thing play out?
"Inquiring minds want to know"

Cynthia - actually I have both those books, believe it or not. I think that I even saw Jean Donaldson lecture early this year. I paid to see someone - can't remeber her name. She had border collies, I think.

I still say - SMACK HIM -HARD!! He SHOULD be afraid of you - you're the boss!! Many people are too soft these days on dogs and they end up in shelters.

vicky

I had great results with the roll over method, cynthia. It is the WAY you do it. It was back in 1992 that I used the roll over method maybe twice. Me once, I think my DH once. Havoc, our shelter dog would not have lasted in our home as he was aggressive toward our adult children and granddaughter. We also had him on short leash, and other training methods. We went with him to obedience school. I hated to hear that you thought my trainer had poor practices. I thought she was great! Sorry, you didn't get to see the before and after results. Which website did you get your info off of, or do you know from first hand experience? Just wanted to know.

***" the whole premise of 'alpha rolls' is based on fiction. In nature an alpha dog does NOT roll another dog onto it's back. Neither do wolves. The less dominant dog voluntarily shows it's belly as a signal of appeasement. It is never physically forced into that position by the other dog. Forcing dogs onto their backs can and will result in defensive aggression."***

This is an interesting subject and whether one likes the technique or not is their choice. I do believe that not every dog benefits from the method and it should only be done by someone who understands how to use it.
In the wild the dog/wolf species has their own way of communicating that a human working with a dog cannot duplicate. If humans were able to show the same posturing and sounds (growls) that the alpha male/female does, then the alpha roll would never be necessary. In the wild, if a dog/wolf doesn't submit to the alpha, a fight results. So, since we're of a different species, we have to use what communicates to the dog that the human is alpha...........which leads us to the "rolll.
Again, I'll say I think this is only needed on dogs that have a strong drive to be alpha and continue to challenge their owner.

A poor trainer and a dog that is strongly determined to be alpha is why many of these animals end up euthanized, so I'd much rather see an alpha roll (by the right person) than an animal sent to its doom.

I never finished reading the book by the Monks and I don't remember how or when they used the 'roll'. They may have changed their views due to novices trying to take what they perceived thru the text and then wrongly applying the training to their dog.
Personally, I find trying to train my dogs by what I've read to be difficult. I'd much rather watch/work with a trainer in person and study their actions, voice, how they communicate with the animal and then try to apply the technique to my dog.
As we all know from posting here, interpretation of text runs the gamut!

No one is right or wrong on this subject and we'll agree to disagree...........and try to keep a biting dog from ending up euthanized.

My pug loves to be rolled onto her back. She just lays there and waits for her belly rub. :)

I'm stepping out of this conversation because I don't have experience with aggressive dogs. I only know what I've learned from our trainer. She's *very* skilled with aggression. Susan, she'd be willing to consult via e-mail if you or your friend would like to contact her.

Our border collie was like that. Belive me, we tried everything to get him to stop biting and nipping. Took him to various trianers, obedience classes and the lot. He was aggressive to the max. It got to the point that he was too snarly to even take for a walk. Our vet let us know of a couple who worked with aggressive dogs and they worked with him for a couple of days. He was still aggressive. It was a sad situation for all involved.
I do hope your friend realizes that the puppy may cause some serious injury one day and she could be looking at a lawsuit. Honestly if it was me, I would say something to the owner about how you feel. If she keeps making excuses for it, then I would tell her that she needs to find another friend to let her dog eat. Sorry that may be harsh but I wouldn't be a chew toy for a friends dog, no way, no how.

Wow, thanks everyone for all of your comments and suggestions. (I was away and off-line this weekend.)

I am going to:

* Bow out of the "throwing treats from the doorway" scheme. I just don't see this accomplishing much, now that he also bites when he's in an open field.

* Request that she gates him when I come to her home.

* Request that he stays on-leash when we go out for walkies.

He's her responsibility to discipline and train (so I won't be slapping him if he attacks me again, as one person suggested), but I can't guarantee that I won't kick him in the face in self-defense!

And you are all absolutely correct that one of these days, he's going to bite someone who is (or whose parents are) angry and litigious, and unwilling to listen to her apologies and excuses. I'm just stunned that a rational, educated grown woman can't see the complete unacceptability of even one biting incident. Guess she hasn't watched enough Judge Judy, to comprehend the total lack of interest or sympathy that the rest of the world has in the explanations, rationalizations, lame excuses, and general denial shared by owners who enable their dogs to bite and bite again.

To the person who wondered why a biting dog would be placed by a rescue organization, well, he did not display that behavior until he had been in my friend's home for almost a month and she had built up his confidence (he was a shivering, cowering fraidy-cat when he first arrived.) I suspect that emotionally she is past the point of being able to return this dog and keep looking.

I'm not going to dump her as a friend over this (as some suggested), but I will keep my distance with the dog and be around him as little as possible. That's too bad, because we've been dog buddies for many many years.

Susan

Susan, has your friend even contacted the rescue group that placed the dog with her to advise them of the dog's latest negative behavior(s)? If she is too attached to the dog to relinquish it, perhaps the rescue group has a behaviorist on staff that can work with her and the dog. I'm sorry to say this, but it sounds to me that both of them could use a little behavior modification. (Please view my post to see my recent experience with rescue folks...they don't always have the best interest of the adoptee or the adopter in mind.) Perhaps a behaviorist would have less emotional involvement? I would hate to see the dog's behavior escalate to more violent attacks, because at that point, the SPCA and police advocate having the animal euthanized. Hopefully, this dog's "nipping" can be "nipped" in the bud with some kind of positive intervention. At least I hope so for all of your sakes.