Water Softener help needed

13 years ago

I've read through a few water softener threads on this forum and have the feeling that some of the experts can help me out here.

I had a local outfit install a water softener for my new house about 3 years ago, and have been struggling since to get it to perform to my satisfaction. I�ve had lots of iron staining as well as crusty white/brown mineral buildup on my plumbing fixtures. During this period I've done a lot of reading on the subject and am getting familiar with how these work.

I�ll start my story here, and hopefully do not omit any important info. First of all, here are the raw water test results from this past December, with the original 2007 results for comparison.

PH 6.6

Iron 5.0

Ferric 4.0 (2007 levels were 2.5)

Ferrous 1.0 (2007 levels were 4.3)

Manganese .38 (2007 level were 0)

Hardness 11 (2007 levels were 7)

The original installation consisted of a PH neutralizer/sediment filter and then the water softener. I have 1 inch copper pipe at this point.

We struggled for quite some time, with the Fleck softener head getting completely plugged/fouled with iron to the point where they had to remove it for a cleaning. At that point, I think they increased the salt for the regen and am sure they decreased the regen frequency on the meter from 2000 gallons to 1000. They also shortened the cycle on the sediment filter.

In the meantime, I added an up flow carbon filter to the system myself to suck up radon. We did not have much and the subsequent tests showed the carbon worked very well in removing the radon. I also bought a Hach test kit for hardness and Iron so I could try to learn how to maintain this setup myself as I was getting tired of the hit or miss attempts of the installer.

At this point, my system consisted of:

1.) 1.5 CuFt sediment filter/PH neutralizer with a Fleck head, Timer style

2.) 1.0 CuFt water softener with a Fleck head, metered

3.) 1.5 CuFt Upflow carbon filter.

Quite frequently, I was able to detect iron and hardness in the system using the test kit (and visually in deeper water), and I finally called the water folks and said I�d had enough. I asked for a PLAN on how he would resolve this, as opposed to just changing settings. They came out to do the second water test in December (results above) and decided that I needed the new configuration with the greensand/pot-perm. My Final setup after adding the greensand/Pot-perm looks like this:

Filter #1 :PH filter

Purpose: Raise PH and oxygen level

Mineral: calcite or neutralite

Size: 1.5 cube

Service: 1 time per year . Add or vacuum tank as needed and replenish mineral.

Backwash: every 3 days

Filter#2 : Iron/Manganese filter

Purpose: Filter manganese , ferrous and ferric iron up to 15 parts per million.

Mineral: Manganese greensand plus

Size: 1.5 cube

Service: 4 times per year. Add 3 measuring cups of potassium permanganate.

Backwash: every 2 days (I recently changed this to 2 days per installers request)

Filter#3 : Water softener

Purpose: Filter hardness only.

Mineral: Dow X HCR Resin

Size: 1 cube

Service: add salt as needed.

Backwash: Recommended regeneration every 2000 gallons.

Filter#4 : Upflow Carbon Filter

Purpose: Remove radon (and anything else it can).

Mineral: Activated charcoal

Size: 1.5 cube

Service: Replace carbon as needed.

Backwash: none.

So after the new setup, they set the water softener regen at 2000 gallons. I assume that they calculated this as being an appropriate setting after anticipating the iron to be mostly removed by the greensand. However, (to make a long story longer) I�m still getting hardness through the softener after only 350 gallons. I�ve been gradually decreasing the meter setting on the softener from the 2000. It was because of my testing that the installer recommended that I set the pot-perm backwash to 2 days vs 3 days thinking that the iron was saturating the greensand then overpowering the softener. I don�t think this has made a difference.

When I do the math (as a novice, so don�t kill me on the theory ;-), I calculate that with a 1 CuFt softener that the installer states is 32,000 grains, it would need to be pulling 91 grains of hardness per gallon(compensated) in order to saturate this quickly. When I questioned the installer about the performance of the softener and whether or not it was doing its job , his reply was "A softeners resin bed either works or it doesn�t �there is no in-between".

Here�s what I�ve observed with my Hach testkit. I use the reagent that turns the water pink, then add 1 drop of solution and shake, until it turns blue. 1 drop = 1 gpg hardness.

1.) Morning after the backwash � 1 drop to blue

2.) 350 gallons on the Fleck meter � 4 drops to blue

3.) 500 gallons on the Fleck meter � 10 drops to blue.

So, finally, my questions are:

1.) Do you think that my softener is performing as expected?

2.) If so, and with so few gallons available, should I consider a twin tank softener?

3.) Any other suggestions debugging or otherwise, like testing the water at the outflow of the greensand to see what is actually going IN to the softener, etc.

Thanks for your patient read. I hope I�ve included enough info. Any help at all will be appreciated, as I�m trying to figure out where to go next as this is been a real pain.

-Brad

Comments (13)

User
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
A long story for sure but not uncommon...

Since you didn't specify I have to assume that..
Iron 5.0
Ferric 4.0 (2007 levels were 2.5)
Ferrous 1.0 (2007 levels were 4.3)
Manganese .38 (2007 level were 0)

... are all PPM?

And that hardness is GPG and you are on a well?

Too much iron to ask a softener to remove so a stand alone iron filter should have been recommended from the start. More likely than not your softener resin is iron fouled.

A 1 cu ft softener at max salt dose of 15 lbs will only yield 30,000 hardness removal capacity not 32,000 and that is very inefficient.

Sounds like you've now got a hodge podge of equipment that may or may not be right, may or may not be correctly sized, isn't correctly set up, and isn't in the correct order.

There's no way to know what you softener might or might not do unless you offer the following info...

Current and comprehensive water test done by a certified lab
How many people?
How many bathrooms?
Any high water use appliances?

Rather than continuing to deal with your water people who GUESS have you looked for alternative water treatment pros locally?
Duk_man
Original Author
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hello justalurker, thanks for the response.

Yes, the iron is PPM, the hardness is GPG, and I am on a well.

"Current and comprehensive water test done by a certified lab" - I think the water test results above are the results from a lab, as my installer "sent it out". However, I can arrange to get that done on my own if it comes to that..

"How many people" - 6 of us
"How many bathrooms" - one each 1/2, 3/4 and full
"Any high water use appliances?" - no. Just went to a front loading washing machine and it has cut our usage dramatically.

I have not contacted any else yet. That's part of the reason I'm here. I wanted to get another opinion or three. I need to decide what my next step is going to be.

As these guys were supposed to be "pros", and had a positive BBB rating(FWIW), how would I select a REAL pro in the future?

Also,

1.) Before I jump to another company, how can I get an idea of what equipment I should have VS what I do have?

2.) Would it be worth my time to insist that he re-beds the resin and see where it goes?

thanks,
-Brad
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You need enough gravel to just about fill the bottom dome of the tank. If you go with two-2.0 cuft tanks, then about 27# of gravel. Garnet is denser and more expensive. In a softener, where the media is not very dense by comparison you don't get any extra benefit from the garnet, so just get the gravel. Here is the complete list of requirements: High quality American or German made resin. This will provide a tight size distribution for optimal flow within the resin Since you have CITY WATER: 10% crosslinked resin. The oxidizers that city water treatment plants use, such as chlorine or chloramine, are harmful to softener resins. Higher crosslinking will resist chemical attack longer. Top basket. This serves two purposes. It sets up a proper water distribution during normal operation and prevents resin loss during backwash. Gravel underbed. The gravel underbed is there to set up proper flow patterns, improve backwash, keep the bottom basket in place, prevent basket failure, and prevent channeling. Many softener sales companies like to leave this out or sell softeners with a vortex system instead. Vortex systems weigh less than gravel so they cost less to ship. In addition, they are a more expensive item that adds profit for the softener salesperson, but provides no additional benefit to the homeowner . It simply adds another piece of equipment that can break. Fleck or Clack valves. These set the industry standard. Be aware that you will not be able to purchase Clack valves online. This is not a problem if you purchase locally. The valve should regen based on water usage, not time. Noryl bypass. Most softeners are available with either Noryl or stainless bypass valves. Both are good valves, but the noryl tends to be more reliable when not used for long periods of time. Install the softener with a three-valve bypass. This will make it so much easier if you ever need to remove the softener for repairs or wish to take it with you when you move. Use full-port, quarter-turn valves.
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I'd like to see the results of a water test from a certified independent lab. The water utility can supply you with the specs of the water AS IT LEAVES their facility but that is not necessarily representative of the water conditions at your water meter which are the #s we need to know to size a softener correctly. "Quality Water Treatment said that with an 80k tank I would likely have bridging issues" You would have channeling issues not bridging issues. Bridging is a problem in the brine tank. Did either company ask you what diameter the plumbing at the softener is? If it is 3/4" then the 6700 is OK but if larger then the 7000SXT is the choice. Actually, I'd opt for the 7000SXT in either case. I prefer regenerations at max every 7 or 8 days unless there's iron in the water and then more frequent regenerations are necessary. I would avoid a Vortech resin tank in all cases and opt for a gravel underbed. Do you KNOW that the uber shower flows 15 gpm or is that a bench spec? If actual flow do you KNOW that your plumbing can deliver 15 gpm to the shower? It's not that you'll lose water pressure so much as that hardness will leak through if you exceed the flow rate for a specific volume of resin. The want of higher SFR with lower hardness is not an uncommon problem. One has to take all variables and circumstances into consideration and make the best compromise without introducing new problems. This post was edited by justalurker on Tue, Aug 13, 13 at 18:48
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1. If you have high Total Dissolved Solids and sediment, then you should be filtering AHEAD of the water softener. The cleaner the water coming into the softener, the less trouble you'll have with nuisance failures like plugged injectors. 2. If your water is really crappy, eg. you can see the dissolved solids, you really should look at a backwashing filter. The benefits are no real reduction in pressure and gpm flow and because the filter (about the size of a softener) automatically backwashers, there are no cartidges to replace, which you will be doing often. 3. You make reference to a $500 fleck. Do you know if it has enough capacity based on hardness vs usage vs # of people in the house? Is it demand based or timer based regeneration? If buying direct are you prepared to ship the thing to the mfg and duke it out with them if it fails? A good rule of thumb when dealing with installed anything to do with your house is take the cost of the goods and double it at minimum. The company installing has to make a profit, deal with warranty, cover overhead......The company in the link I included deals with softeners, filters, everything and the pricing will give you an idea of what decent equipment on it's own is worth. But it's worth nothing to you if it's not installed competently. 4. At 2k installed for a decent softener with warranty through the installer -- it's their baby if something goes wrong, you're not getting robbed. Can you shop it around with smaller independent plumbing contractors? Sure but make sure you can get references and feel comfortable doing business with whomever you choose, that may be worth a few hundred. 5. If you are going to go through the trouble of filtering and softening your well water, you will be a couple of hundred dollars away from not having to rely on bottled water. I mentioned Reverse Osmosis for drinking, it is cheaper in the long run vs paying for bottled and it tastes neutral. Note that the only contaminant that RO can't deal with is hydrogen sulphide (you know it if you have it, your water smells like rotten eggs). Removing hydrogen sulphide is another 2k or so. 6. Before taking the plunge with anyone, you may want to have your water tested thoroughly by an independent lab to see what contaminants are present and see what they recommend for treatment based on your intended usage. Their services aren't free. The cost here for a thorough analysis is about $80. Iron, Hardness, Sediment, TDS is a good starting point if you're not drinking it. 7. Research as much as you can, google google and more google. We moved to the country back in april and had to deal with all of this, minus sediment in the water (I'm lucky, my well starts at 130' and goes down another 30' in fractured bedrock). Being uninformed about rotten egg smell, we almost pulled the trigger on 2k worth of oxidizing and filtering equipment. Turns out that 2/3 of a gallon of chlorox killed the harmless bacteria that was the cause of the smell. -But- The water conditioning pros won't tell you that because they want to sell equipment. Hope my late night rambling helps. Here is a link that might be useful: backwashing filter
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Hi everyone, I'm hoping there are a few experts left on this board. I know it's a question that's been asked frequently, but I'm trying to find the right water softener for my parents. They recently purchased a new house, 4800 sq ft, 5 bathrooms, but they'll be the only people living there. Should I purchase a twin tank or a larger tank for when the rest of the family visit? (12 total) We all live locally, so we'd never sleep there, but their grandchildren might once in awhile. pH: 7 total alkalinity: 240 PPM total hardness: 25 gpg / 425 PPM no Iron no nitrate/nitrite no chlorine .1 copper I originally had thought of purchasing the fleck sxt 7000 64,000 grain because the water is pretty hard, but would that be overkill? Thanks in advance
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User
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hi Brad,

For starters I can tell you this...

With 6 people, 11 gpg hardness, iron 5 ppm, manganese .38, you're looking at a softener around 5 cu ft to successfully treat your water and you'll still need an acid neutralizer ahead of the softener. You'd want to regenerate every 3-4 days and set up a routine maintenance schedule using a resin cleaner.

A 5 cu ft softener is a BIG one and your well may not have the required SFR to regenerate that volume of resin. You could probably get away with a 5.0 cu ft Fleck 9100SXT twin resin tank (2.5 cu ft of resin in each tank) softener.

Your 1.0 cu ft softener is a joke based on your occupancy and water conditions. That should tell you to RUN from your current water people as fast as you can.

You need to get someone in there who knows what they are doing or you're just going to pour money down the drain.

If you intend to DIY be aware that in order to be successful the softener will have to be correctly sized and set up correctly and efficiently and there will be routine maintenance.
Duk_man
Original Author
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Yes, 5 cu ft is very big.

Does that still include the greensand/Pot-perm that I have? or would it be "standalone" with the acid-neutralizer?

I also realize that this info/conversation is dependent upon an accurate water test. I'm not sure if I'd DIY a new system or not. Experiments can be costly, eh?

What does SFR mean? Not sure of the acronym but assume it is a measurement of flow/volume.
User
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
A clean BBB slate is not an indication that a business does it's job right only that it's customers think it does.

Based on your experience with your current water people are they resolving your water treatment problems? Would you recommend them?

Get a water test from an independent lab. An independent lab has no agenda and won't be trying to sell you water treatment equipment. This is a MUST DO because without it everything is a guess. A quickie water test from Sears or a water softener company won't be as accurate (and possibly not as competent) as from a certified independent lab.

Hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local water treatment pros. Make sure you call at least one of the big dogs like Kinetico for comparison and at least a couple independent pros. DON'T TELL THEM YOU HAD YOUR WATER TESTED.

Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated. Don't offer your lab test results and don't suggest anything to them.

Ask lots of questions. Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale.

Make them be specific regarding hardware. size, components, maintenance?

After they've gone use your water test to compare with theirs. Are all your treatment needs being addressed?

Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid.

Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware components with the costs and we'll give you our opinions.
rjh2o
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
The original softener would never work on that water chemistry and usage. You need to test the water after the PH tank to make sure PH has been corrected to 6.8 or above. The greensand filter can still struggle to oxidize ferrous iron with low PH. It will remove any iron already oxidized (ferric). I would have to agree the softener resin is probably loaded with iron and should be re-bedded. Your water heater is probably loaded with iron and hardness also and will need to be flushed with GOOD WATER frequently before that problem disappears. At 11gpg, 6 people and NO iron your 1.0 cuft softener will work for your family. You can set it at 2000 gallons and 12 lbs salt this will provide 24,000 grains of capacity with reserve.
I would get them to re-bed the softener and terminate your business with them. This is really water treatment 101.
I would suggest getting an independent water analysis also.
RJ
Duk_man
Original Author
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
OK, thanks again for all the help. Sounds like good, common sense advice. I'll get to work and post what I find out.

kindest regards,
-Brad
User
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Brad,

SFR is Service Flow Rate. SFR can be sustained and peak.

5 ppm iron can be managed by a correctly sized and setup stand alone softener so an acid neutralizer for the PH correction before the softener may be all that is needed. If iron treatment is required then that can be added later possibly along with a backwashing carbon filter.

RJ,

I disagree. Any money spent on the 1 cube softener other than hauling it to the dump is wasted. At max salt dose the 1 cuber would be marginal and only provide 9 gpm SFR and it would eat salt at an alarming rate. More than likely it needs resin and a valve cleaning so why invest money in something that won't do what the OP needs?

I favor curing the disease while some favor treating the symptom. Seems to me that the OP has already gone the symptom route and is looking to cure the disease as he intended to in the first place.
Duk_man
Original Author
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Just as a side note, the up-flow carbon filter came with a "required" 8 GPM flow restrictor that I put in-line. I know this defeats the purpose of the 1" copper but it was added later.

I have not noticed a big difference in flow, nor has anyone else in the house complained and it's been over a year. Our appliances are pretty efficient as well as we are normally conservative with our resources.
User
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
SFR (both sustained and peak) for the plumbing and the softener can effect different things and that's why those factors need to be considered when sizing a softener.

When the peak SFR of a softener is exceeded hardness leaks through.
rjh2o
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Duk Man, If I am reading your post correctly, you currently have the greensand filter in place for iron removal, correct? A water softener is not designed to and will not remove ferric iron. The carbon filter may very well be loaded with iron at this point also. It may need to be re-bedded. A proper water analysis, proper application and listening to the customer are the cornerstones for successful water treatment applications. It is regretful that this was not done initially for you. I trust our assistance will help you resolve these issues and give your home and family great water.
I refrain from being argumentative. The objective is to help the customer resolve their water treatment issues in a helpful, professional and practical manner.
Sincerely,
RJ
Duk_man
Original Author
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
RJ,

You are observant! I had the radon levels re-checked for exactly these reasons around December and the effectiveness of the carbon did in fact change. The levels went from I very much appreciate the responses from yourself and Justalurker. My current game plan looks something like this:

1.) Get the independent water test done.
2.) Assume the softener resin is fouled and re-bed. $110.
3.) Get the quotes/solutions from a couple REPUTABLE outfits.
4.) Keep monitoring after the rebed and see if that clears up my problem. I'm ordering a 1" inline brass water meter so I know EXACTLY what my daily usage is. Another $60, but well spent I think.

Yes, if I had mountains of disposable cash, I'd hire the guns and turn-key the job........wish I was in such a position. Another reason I would like to get it straight myself is I don't like being dependant on "water guys" at this point.......no offense ;-) and yes, I change my own oil too!

regards,
-Brad
rjh2o
13 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
It appears that you are well on your way to good water. I wish you good luck and good water for your home and family.
RJ

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