here's my story:

i hired an architect nearly two years ago to make renovation drawings for my kitchen (and bath). though he did measure create, and draw the layout of my new kitchen cabs (same footprint), i still had to meet with the cabinet retailer's kd to work out specifics like drawer pulls and finishes. i actually felt like the kd had better advice than the architect, concerning layout. a few months after that, i wound up finding a different cabinet company on my own (this, after the relationship with the architect had ended). the kd for this company, a licensed architect, asked me to remeasure all of the original architect's measurements of the kitchen (i was disappointed having to do this, since i thought the original architect's drawings would've taken care of this. but it wasn't hard to do.). the company is based in seattle and the kd was working out of their ny office. she made one visit to my home before ordering, made appliance recommendations, and made 2 or 3 drafts of architectural drawings before finalizing. we were constantly emailing questions and concerns back and forth throughout this whole process (2-3 months?). she was extremely responsive and dedicated to the project. (even now, during install, i can reach her immediately withe any questions--and she always knows the answer)

if i could do it over again, i would've gone directly to the kitchen kd for everything. given the thoroughness of the second kd and her architecture degree (not typical), it was not necessary to have hired the original architect. i guess my recommendation to you would be to find the kind of cabinets you love and can afford, and look very carefully at the kd's experience and professionalism before you decide to use them. and be clear about what services the kd will provide you with. the level of service varies from home depot to your local cabinet maker. depending on this, you just may need the help and guidance of an architect. and p.s., why on earth would you buy tile from a cabinet place--by all means, shop around the internet (i know it's overwhelming, but you'll find that just reading the posts here will help demystify the process) and purchase these on your own!

another thing, 15% seems high. before i took on the first architect, i asked around and learned that 8-15% was about the rate. my architect charged me 10%. and my brother, an architect (living in a different city), thought 10% was high considering the project was all interior redesign, with no structural/plumbing/electrical changes.

i hope you'll find some part of this useful.

Does the architect cook? Most don't and don't have any real idea of how a working kitchen should function. They don't know the different either functionally or aesthetically between a PPD36 or a B36BUTT and couldn't tell you where it seems the most practical MW cabinet should be both for snacking and meal prep.

I get a lot of builder or architect designed kitchens that have drawn islands that in no way will really fit or work. They only consider the minimum aisles clearances between cabinets, and the counter overhang never comes into the picture, nor does the fact that the kitchen might have two cooks or small helpers. The architect will lay out barrier island, or angled peninsula monstrosity for " architectural interest" without considering the reality of minimized storage or plumbing difficulties created by these decisions.

It is a RARE architect that knows enough about cooking and kitchen design to fully design a space that is an actual pleasure to work in and pretty to look at. It's always worth a second set of eyes to polish a design, and it's always worth holding off on the actual building or renovation until the design is RIGHT.

I would work with a kitchen designer.

I think it is nice to have a plan you can use no matter where you get the cabinets. We went with a KD, liked her plan, but ended up hating her cabinets (sample door came in and it was TERRIBLE). we ended up losing our deposit. I felt pressure to go with her since I wanted her involved in the project the entire time. The only way we could do that was to order cabinets through her.

An architect would have given us plans and then we would have had the freedom to buy cabinets where we wanted.

I lost my deposit w/ the original KD (am trying hard to get it back). So, the architect would have been 1/3 the cost of the KD (if you factor in the lost deposit). Grrrr!

My vote would be for an independent designer, KD, or architect... someone who isn't going to strongarm you into buying a product you might not feel comfortable with. Maybe you could find a good design firm and use a KD instead of an architect (would probably be less than an architect and give you the freedom to go with whatever cabinet line you choose).

1. Local cabinetmakers costs are usually within semi-custom to custom manufactured cabinets. I would be surprised if you could get custom for the price of stock. I had a local cabinetmaker stop by the other day. From his brochures, he was more high-end. He said that his cabinets were in the Plain & Fancy price range...which is about double what 'stock cabinets' are.

2. Paying double? I doubt that you will. But be sure you don't pay the architect to help with the kitchen layout, it's not his specialty. He might be 'qualified' to do it...but he/she has no real, practical experience. They don't do it everyday...a KD does! And I second what L_W_O said...I have seen plenty of TERRIBLE kitchen layouts on blueprints by architects. The fact is, they know that their clients will consult a KD, so they really don't put a lot of thought in to the layout of the kitchen (it's that obvious). They will probably specify the locations of the sink, but even that is not a given. On a few occasions over the past 25 years, I have had a client that brought along their architect relative. Ugh! It ends up making the design process more difficult. They came up with 'not-so-great' ideas, or like L_W_O said, they would suggest very impractical ideas. On every point, I would have to politely (with kid gloves) explain why everything they suggested would not work. It was uncomfortable and embarassing at times.

HTH,
KOMPY

Having used both an architect and KD, I would strongly recommend a KD for the kitchen as most architects design for aesthetics, not function. Or you could post your architect's layout here and let the layout gurus have at it. I've seen some amazing designs come out of this forum.

I am in a similar situation. When we bought our house we knew we would have to redo the kitchen (1959 ranch w/ original kitchen). We ended up with an architect b/c it became clear that yes the kitchen had to be redone, but it was in the wrong place in the house. That led to a series of rooms being relocated. Our architect did a great job. She designed the kitchen - cabinets location, appliance location, island location, window and door locations.

I have hired a KD to help with the actual design of the kitchen. She helps with which cabinets, how best to place them, colors, styles and all that stuff I am clueless about (okay, clueless unless I post on this forum and receive a quick education). My architect's general design for the kitchen was sound, but it is the KD that is creating a functional and an aesthetically pleasing kitchen (okay, or so I hope - we are only to the sheet rock stage, but it looks good..)

You will not be paying double. You will actual save money b/c the hourly rate of an architect is MUCH higher than what a kitchen designer will cost you. And it helps to have both - for example I had issues with the window over my sink and needed the architect to redesign the shape and make sure the location would make sense when looking at the house from the outside

My experience:

I had previously built 3 homes and gutted/remodeled one on my one with the help of my architect/builder, all with custom cabinets. I'm also very...um...opinionated in my personal design aesthetic, so I never really thought I needed a KD. I was always happy with the kitchens and thought they looked great.

On my current (4th) home, we decided to go with semi-custom cabinets because we could get a better stain finish than my cabinet guy could do, and I worked with a KD for the first time. She really opened my eyes to all the things I'd never considered before. I wouldn't say that my previous kitchens weren't functional, but there were things that had I known, I would have done differently (um, like trying to use a downdraft vent with a 48" gas range. Doh!).

In additional to helping me translate what was in my head into reality and making it functional as well as beautiful, she was able to give me advice that prevented costly mistakes (which appliances to avoid, best bang for the buck, where to spend my money and where I could scrimp, best lighting options for my budget, etc.) She was also my advocate (and therapist, lol) on how things *should* be done when things went awry during the project. I didn't order anything through her, so there was no pressure to spend money on any specific product.

I will definitely use her on my next kitchen even though "I know what I'm doing", LOL.

Thanks for all the advice so far! I love this website.

Perhaps what I didn't make clear is that we have the architect because we are doing an major home renovation and addition. And she's done a super job with the overall plan for the home. She also does seem to know a lot about doing kitchens. I think together, we are close to a very good layout (but perhaps I'll post that for great comments from here! Where I am having the issue is in the more detailed design stuff - how the cabinets look, etc. She is very contemporary and I want transitional. What I don't get about the KDs is the $. The fee we are paying for arch. services includes all the designing, help with selection of stone, etc. So if I now go to a KD, it seems that I will then be paying a second design fee - even though they don't call it that. I'm just trying to find one to whom I can py for some hourly advice/input and not be locked into buying their cabinets, but I can't seem to find any who will work that way. Perhaps I just have to bite the bullet and pay their design fee???

Thanks for all the advice so far! I love this website.

Perhaps what I didn't make clear is that we have the architect because we are doing an major home renovation and addition. And she's done a super job with the overall plan for the home. She also does seem to know a lot about doing kitchens. I think together, we are close to a very good layout (but perhaps I'll post that for great comments from here! Where I am having the issue is in the more detailed design stuff - how the cabinets look, etc. She is very contemporary and I want transitional. What I don't get about the KDs is the $. The fee we are paying for arch. services includes all the designing, help with selection of stone, etc. So if I now go to a KD, it seems that I will then be paying a second design fee - even though they don't call it that. I'm just trying to find one to whom I can py for some hourly advice/input and not be locked into buying their cabinets, but I can't seem to find any who will work that way. Perhaps I just have to bite the bullet and pay their design fee???

Not all kitchen designers and kitchen dealerships work the same way. There are several ways to remodel a kitchen. Here are a few ways:

1. Kitchen dealerships:
Depending on the dealer, you might not have to pay any design fee. If you already have the work done, you might even get a discount. I would not fax your layout to a bunch of dealers. I would ask the architect, builders, electricians and plumbers for recommendations on kitchen stores. They've been around and will know who's who.
Here, you can purchase stock, semi-custom or custom. Some dealers will charge for design, but return the design fee if you purchase materials.

2. Independant KD:
Might or might not actually sell/offer cabinetry. Here, you will definitely pay to consult with them, but maybe not if you buy the cabinets from her. Some designers will charge for design, but return the design fee if you purchase materials.

3. Remodeling Companies:
Usually do not carry lines of cabinets. They are labor only

4. Design/Build:
Usually offer materials and labor and sometimes have a big showroom...they are often the more expensive way to go, but you get more hand holding and service. This is not for the Do-It-Yourselfer type.

5. Cabinetmaker:
Will quote your layout for you. But tell them your budget so you don't waste their time, or yours. They will be able to tell you if they will be within your budget.

valleigh,

i would say, in your typical suburban kitchen dealership, you will not have to pay an additional fee for their KD, IF your architect is the one who brings you to their showroom. in my case, my architect brought me to a place in new orleans called Cabinets By Design. they sell two or three lines, including Ultracraft and WoodMode. the extent of the work done by this KD was to show me their pulls and finishes and price appliances (over-priced, so perhaps this is where they make their "commission"). but most importantly, she reviewed my architect's drawing and made useful suggestions. but the KD did not make any drawings herself, and in the two quotes received from her, there was never a design fee.

btw, do your homework on appliances. architects will get stuck on one brand. my architect only chose from toto toilets and duravit vanities for my bath, for instance. and for the kitchen, he went with what was represented at Cabinets By Design, which was the subzero and wolf brand. i ended up going with 3 mieles, 2 subzeros, and a japanese hood, and came out ahead. when i look back at the old estimate for appliances, i just cannot believe how much they were planning on charging me! you can refuse this part of their "service" and choose your own brands. you should only need to give your architect the model numbers and he should look up the specs himself and measure/design teh cabinets accordingly.

I would talk with the cabinet maker first. As a custom cabinet guy myself I have seen and done hundreds of kitchens. Ones that work and ones that don't and I pride myself on being creative and knowledgeable about kitchen layouts and design....and the advice is free. Then after you talk with the cabinet guy and the ideas are not flowing then hire a KD. There has been many threads on this forum where custom is not always more expensive. I am in NC and I compete very, very well with most of the prefab operations and I know I build a much better product as well.
Best of luck to you.

travisalfrey,

would you please consider moving to new orleans? we could use real craftsmen, like you, down here. i've been searching for someone to build a custom bunk bed for my youngest's bedroom, and can't seem to find anyone on my own. i hate to call california closets again, too, to get a nice closet system in order (my contractor calls it "wafer board", yet i don't trust his "finishes" technique to hire him) speaking of architects, i feel like i need to hire one again just to get some of their resources for these projects of mine.

if anyone has a good recommendation for wood craftmen in new orleans, please let me know!

Definitely go w/a KD...even if you do have to pay the extra fee, which I doubt will happen if you buy your cabinets from him/her. When we were looking, most were willing to do a preliminary layout w/our verbal dimensions. However, once they came out to measure, a fee was charged...but it was then deducted from the cabinet order. The net result was no fee if you purchased your cabinets from them.

I have seen Kitchen Layouts here that have come from architects that I cringe to think of working in...yes they may know how to make something architecturally interesting, but they're usually clueless about what makes a kitchen truly functional. I've also looked at many of the "house plan" magazines & the online builder sites and can say the same thing...yikes! You also see it if you visit model homes.

If we ever build again, I will definitely not allow the builder or architect to plan my kitchen! It will be with help HERE and probably a KD...

Listen to Live_Wire_Oak...she knows what she's talking about!

Unfortanly there is no one good answer to this question. There are good and bad architects and KD's. A custom cabinet maker might build quality cabinets but his finishes might be sub par. Skill levels, creativity, design sense and craftsmanship vary from person to person. The more educated you can be about the process the better you can judge that. I've been reading this forum for the last several months and I can tell you as a custom furniture and cabinet builder this is one of the best places to get that education. I am impressed with some of the kitchens I've seen people pull off here and the level of knowledge shared on this sight. Like many others here I'm also "totally kitchen obsessed" but my obsession is figuring out how the top kitchens out there are made. The door styles, moldings and the unique finishes. I deconstruct them on a daily basis. My advice would be to work with a competent KD in conjunction with your architect. Pay them a design fee and don't be locked into using only the cabinets they represent. Know what is realistic within your budget. Break down the components. Budget them separately. Look at a lot of stuff and try to analyze what it is you like about it. To get it right you have to put in some time and this forum is a good place to start. live wire oak and Kompy are pros and always give sound advice here.

Hi Valleigh - We were in the same situation as you. We were doing a main floor reno which included mudroom, laundry, kitchen and bath, so we hired an architect do do the full drawings, including the elevation drawings for the kitchen and cabinets. (we knew her and she had the same vision as we did for the reno) We then took the drawings to a "Kitchen/Cabinet Dealership" and asked for a quote on the cabinets. They came out and re-measured just to be sure (and good thing too, because there were a few errors), but also made a few minor suggestions as to how to make it flow better. They didn't charged us for that because they thought the drawings were sound. So in the end, we paid the architects fees, got the quote from the kitchen dealership and have now ordered the cabinets.
I would suggest like others have, that if you already have plans from the architect, that you ask the kitchen/cabinet places what they will charge you for.

Hope that helps.