Center the sink with balances uppers and get a cutting boats that fits in the sink

Center the sink and move the stove over with a much smaller cabinet to it's left. My stove is centered on the left of the L and the counter space to the left is pretty much only used for resting spoons while cooking, the majority of the prep, etc is on the right as yours will be.
What is the size of the opening to the sunporch, could it be made a bit narrower?

This post was edited by athomeinva on Fri, Feb 22, 13 at 9:05

athomeinva: I think the stove also needs to be centered due to the open wall there. Seems like it to me, anyway. I dunno, guess it's up for discussion.

My stove is on one leg of L like yours with sink on other. I never prep in the corner between sink and stove. In old kitchen, pre-island, same perimeter layout, always prepped to left of stove, never in corner. With island, I mostly prep there but I still use left of stove more. That's where window is, plus who wants to work in a corner.

Local: I always like to prep to the left of the sink. I seem to like to have water on my right for some reason. In my current kitchen, I moved into a corner between the stove and sink because it works out better zone/available storage wise but I don't prefer it only because the water is on my left and it just feels odd. I have to stop myself from returning to the counter on the left of the sink. My point is that I don't mind the corner... as long as the water is at my right hand. I can certainly colonize the counter left of stove and right of sink when I need to. Probably the table, too. haha.

I guess I'm in the minority. I've never been obsessed with symmetry. Perhaps cause until I became real involved here; I didn't know any better. That said, I think of it this way. I don't stand back in the hallway and enjoy my kitchen. I enjoy using my kitchen. Sure; I absolutely love how it looks. And I'll steal a glance at the end of the night or when it's all shiny for guests or even exclaimed while using it (" this soapstone was the greatest idea I"ve ever had"!). But my pleasure does not come from standing back and looking. And that's how I see the pull of symmetry. You're standing back and looking at the whole. I just can't see the point of allowing that to circumvent function.

I have an island but I still prep in the corner just as much as on the island, doesn't bother me at all. Plus deedles corner is going to be very open compare to most.
What about if you switch the drawer banks and have the slimmer one on the left? The picture that shows the ledge at a continuous height looks better, I understand that you do not want to to restrict the view but it may not be worth the oddness to actually have varying heights.

remodelfla: I think you're right to a point. Like now every inch is SO IMPORTANT but I know that real world it's not as much. However, this copper apron sink really feels to me like it has to be centered or it'll bug me forever.

athomeinva: you mean the stove wall ledge? Yeah, that's the next area to tweak once this sink wall is beaten into submission.

I think it's the apron sink calling attention... we have a non-centered sink in front of window, but it's an undermount sink so it doesn't call as much attention. Still, I don't think it looks bad, it's just the drawing style once there are things in the kitchen and it's in use I don't think it will be as noticeable.

One possibility is putting the faucet towards the center of the window. Another is to put the dishwasher to the left and cover it with copper to match the sink. That way, the entire area appears to be one unit. You get your prep area, the sink seems on center, and there is not the expense of installing a new window if you are satisfied with the one you have. It could be costly depending on the materials you have on the exterior of your house.

I really like keeping this back wall symmetrical.

As you have said, the problem is that the big copper sink demands attention. Here are 3 quickies to save words. So--just ideas:

1. Lose the copper sink. Use a different sink off center.

2. Keep the farm sink and go back to two windows. You may lose a bit of cabinets, but not a lot. And this gives great prep space.

3. Just to be ridiculous. I know you can't lose all that upper cab space.

Hey Bellsmom: haha, well, losing the sink isn't an option since I already bought it (I like the sink but sometimes I half regret buying it before I knew WTH was going on.)
option 2 won't fly with DH. Center window only.
option 3 would be great IF I had another place for my dishes, which I don't.

I'm going to leave the base cabs alone and mess with the uppers and window until it works. I appreciate the ideas, though!

On your first photo could you split the top drawer to the left of the sink and do an under counter paper towel holder? Or in place of the top drawer do a pull out basket for veggies?

As far as I can tell, no one has commented on your new plan posted at 7:51 that solves the problem with a new/bigger window. I vote YES. That seems to solve all the problems, right? I think the loss of symmetry of the uppers is negligible.

eandhl: I do like the paper towel idea. It's on option that I'd like to make room for if possible.

Thanks Angie, that's what I was looking for... Localeater had the same opinion as you, too. Probably the way to go.

I like prepping next to the sink so I'd want as much prep area as possible, but in your situation you have so much symmetry framing your sink it makes the off center sink much more obvious and more so because it's an apron sink. I'd ditch the apron in a heartbeat to keep the cab symmetry. Bellsmom did a mock up of that #1 and it's much better.

I prefer the matching glass cabs in your first layout than the 2 on one side and 1 on the other in your second . Don't like bellsmon #2 and 3 version because the sink is crammed into a corner on the right side. No prep area to the right, further from the range and not sure what else.

Hard to tell for sure when only looking at a mock up of only one wall at a time. Every asymmetrical feature will always be more obvious under the microscope.

Just curious, your range wall. I take it your range will have no back piece or hood? Is it a pop up downdraft and if so when up is it below the wall height?

Island: I can't 'ditch' the apron sink. It was a huge expense and I'm not made of money.

Now, if you have a buyer for a 30" Rachiele copper sink, let me know and I'll consider it. :)

I already have my sink, and am trying to design around it. I WANT MY SINK. However, I am starting to question if it makes sense to live 30 years in a kitchen that doesn't serve me as well as I would like because I WANT MY SINK.

Now, that's just the process I'm in the midst of. I have carted this sink from my last kitchen remodel in '07, stored it in my garage and was/am SO excited to use it (anyone who was here back then, may have heard that I had to move out of my house just as I finished the remodel. I used the kitchen exactly once - unbelievable heartbreak). Anyway, my sink may be carrying some additional emotional baggage....

I digress.....

I don't think your sink works as you have it laid out. I think the triple window is better, but still not as good as the undermount sink, with the cabs as originally planned.

I am still in process of figuring out a way to have it all....maybe you can too.

I don't think the one on the right looks bad.

This upper config with the base cabs the same as before works for me, I think.

You asked for ideas and since you don't have a final layout I didn't expect or catch that you already had the sink.

Island: no problem... I figured that, hence the smiley face in my response above. :)

Why not try to unload the sink? If you loved it enough to buy it before you even had your kitchen planned, I'm sure there's another buyer out there looking for a sink to love. Try it on Craigslist for a week to see what interest there might be, and/or ebay.

why should deedles unload that sink? Have you guys seen a picture? It's FANTASTIC!!! The bigger window on the right seems like the perfect solution to me. I must be anti-symmetry... cause for the life of me I can't imagine ditching a custom made fabulous sink so the size of my upper cabinets will match.

karen belle: maybe I should hang on to it and not use it, heck at the price of copper it might be worth MORE than I paid for it one of these days! DH says if someone breaks into the house, they'll leave everything and take the sink. hey, maybe I should stop posting about it....

remodelfla: lol, you remind me that it is a great sink and I'm really looking forward to the big single bowl with the rear corner drain and the copper shelf with the holes for the drippy stuff to sit on, as much as for how pretty it is.

Just another voice.

I live for symmetry and balance. I'm that annoying person who will straighten other peoples' pictures if I see them not level. I have ticky-tac on the back of all mine at home to avoid that catastrophe...

That being said, going back up to the original shot, it doesn't look like the sink is centered on the right window. It is slightly off-center of the window. Do you think that could be what is throwing you?

Also, as crazy as I am about minutiae details, I know I fret and fret and fret ahead of time and when it actually occurs, most of the time I realize it wasn't as bad as I thought it might be. The last time this "can I get away with not centering this sink" thread idea came through, I paid close attention (I will also be fighting the center window vs. more usable counterspace when it comes to doing layout)... that day I visited my dad's house. I have been there I don't know how many times and I never noticed how NOT centered his sink was -- it is just randomly floating in the midst of his window... not centered... not in thirds... not in quarters.... and I never noticed it until I made of a point of checking that day. ugh!

Center the sink and bump out the window into a bay.
Then get a nice kitchen cart to use for more prep area.

I just plucked a Boos cart on Craig's list and used it to make pizza! I am in love with it!

a2: aren't you lucky! Nice find. I love that CL. Found a nearly unused Fisher Paykel washer and dryer pair for 300.00. Just looking for a temporary pair and now they're my permanent pair.
Bumping out is a problem as there is stone on the outside wall. Like STONE. Not veneer but actual granite honkin' stones. I'd love a garden window but DH makes funny noises when I say that. Anyway, I did center the sink! :>P

And then where the H do I keep the rolling cart? Have I introduced you to my small house, btw? 1200 sq ft., meet a2gemini...

Let's see the range centered in the opening. Is the post next to the range structural?

It is a load bearing wall, so yes there has to be posts (a post?) somewhere along that stretch. The opening is 48" wide and we don't really want to get smaller than that, either fwiw. The wall behind the stove is one option... straight across @ backsplash height. (actually could be lower as the stove back is only 16" tall.)

and since I can't manage to post more than one pic per post this is another option... 42" except behind the stove. Have to admit it looks a bit stupid from the porch side.

Well, with a bit of rationalizing it's symmetrical:
Think of distance A + the sink cab + distance B as betwee two ''walls''--the range cabinets and the right wall.
If distance A and B are the same or nearly so, I think it will read as symmetrical.

It would be nice if the 3 wall cabs were all equal in width--about 24''. That would make one over the range wall cabs and the other 2 flanking the window. Again symmetry--of a sort.

I think you ''done good'' with this.
As you said, the wall cabs need fiddling. I would try to maintain the implied ''symmetry'' if possible.

And the sink will be gorgeous, the star of the show and worth every minute you have spent fiddling.

Hope this makes sense.

This post was edited by Bellsmom on Fri, Feb 22, 13 at 16:12

The man wants to be able to see you through the window! I think you can give him a wink and a smile and you will have your garden window. A garden window will not effect the stone.

Does no one else prep like me? If I prep to the right of my stove I use the run of counter that wraps from the stove all the way to the sink. If you have the sink centered in the original design, which I personally like best, but shift the stove to the left then you will have the same amount of prep space. Admittedly, I am a symmetry freak and really the uppers are what I find most important for symmetry so shifting the stove would look fine to me but the uneven uppers looks off.

That last pic in Bellsmom's post is like what I will have around my range. One door, then range then 2 doors together that same size then the window. I'm optimistic. Mine are 12 inches so 12/30 range/24, yours are larger so I think they will look better. I vote for the larger window with the sink centered! That sink will stand out, so if off entered doesn't look right now, it will probably bother you.

I can't wait to see that sink! Have you posted any pics here? I can try google if they exist somewhere...

The sink is so beautiful, and I agree that the design posted at 7:51 looks like a really good solution for the sink to be centered.

Bellsmom: The lowers are the same left and right of sink cab, so good, right? If I make the uppers each 24 then my wall space is off b/w the cabs and window. I have 8.5" on either side of the window. Or then the window has to move and I'm playing the same shell game again. 42 (or 21/21) and 21 is gonna have to work unless something boinks me in the head and a different light goes on. Would it help if the left 21 of the 42 became open bookshelves? I would (sorely) miss the dish storage, though.

Debrak: Maybe so. I would like the extra counter space but I'd think a 60" garden window would be omg expensive, too. It's something to check around for, though just in case.

athomeinva: sounds like you and I prep in the same spot. I hear you and possibly the stove might move although right now I'd say it won't. But who knows? Something might present itself that will allow the return of the symmetrical uppers. Heck, I wouldn't mind getting back 9" of upper, but not at the expense of my counter space.

Well, here is the better version of the tweaked sink wall. And a shot of the sink, as requested. I thought everyone was sick of seeing it :)

leela4: thanks for the thumbs up!

leela4: thanks for the thumbs up!

Would it make a hill of beans difference to swap the stove with the sink?

I do like the sink centered under the window in the picture you posted just under the photo of your copper beauty. It looks centered, and with the fridge shown as it is on the right, you can't tell that the top cabs are different sizes, at least from that view.

I'm just struggling a bit with the look of the bump up behind the stove back, which is why I'm suggesting switching the sink and stove. I happen to love seeing a window over a stove, but others may feel differently (including code enforcement officers.)

The stove in it's current rendering reminds me a bit of Shanghaimom's, which is a look I'd suggest, except I think you are trying to keep that beautiful view as open as possible.

Feel free to ignore me if swapping the sink and stove is a pesky suggestion. In any case, I'm sure the kitchen will be beautiful when it's all said and done. : )

Here is a link that might be useful: Shanghaimom's kitchen

Deedles- no plans for a hood?

GWlolo: yes, just haven't gotten to figuring that out yet.

laughable: I had the stove on that wall flanked by windows, but DH hated it for a few reasons. The high back splash of the stove and a range hood at say 30" over the cooktop leaves a 14" window space between. Not much for a window of any sort, really. I'm going to start working on that stove wall next. I'm sure there is some tweaking there, too.

I love shanghaimom's stove arrangement. Have to work on my version.

The worst part about a stove on the other wall IMO is having the traffic right behind me as the main entry doorway is just to the right of that wall.

Deedles- I'd like to start by saying...do NOT change your sink! Your sink and your range are wonderful and they need to stay as is, IMHO :)

I know you did have the sink and range swapped in your other post, but you said DH didn't like it. Have you drawn it up? Can we see it, just to compare?

It would be easier to vent the stove and you could use a really great hood (maybe vintage or copper) to tie everything together. Two windows will be plenty big enough to see your DH when he's outside (referring to earlier post) and think of your wonderful view from the sink!

Give it a try...remember, DH also didn't want to take down the wall to the LR! (Tell him sorry, but he must have known that was going to be mentioned again, at some point LOL)

Shoot. Lost my whole post. Well suffice it to say there were positives and negatives to that layout and maybe I'll bring it up again with DH in a few days.

I would go with the three 21'' uppers.
The left 21'' cab is going to line up pretty close to the front of the stove cabs and help with the symmetry.
I really like the symmetrical frame of wall (or backsplash?) that arches up, over, and down around the window. Makes the sink even more of a focal point.

I would put the sink wall to bed. DONE!

And move on to the details on the stove wall.

This post was edited by Bellsmom on Sat, Feb 23, 13 at 9:38

Sounds like a plan to me, Bellsmom! We're tweaking the stove wall right now. I think this is all gonna work out very well.

I'll need some stove wall advice in the next day or so, though. I'll be posting soon!

Thank you to everyone that weighed in on this, I really appreciate it.

No need to reply to this. Just FWIW:

What if you dropped the wall behind the stove quite a bit.
Kinda like this.

How much you could drop the wall would depend on what you had to put behind the stove. On the top of the wall behind the stove, to at least partially conceal the stove's protrusion, you could put something like one of these? (In my mind's eye, I see a collection of copper boxes, not a single one.)

I was looking for something that might hold kitchen tools or somehow be useful as well as pick up the sink's copper and be interesting. I found a couple. This one isn't long enough, but you'll get the idea. Here's a detail of the planter:

And here is the link:

Here is a link that might be useful: hand-tooled copper planter with birds

This post was edited by Bellsmom on Sat, Feb 23, 13 at 17:35

I don't have any advice for the sink placement, other than to say that I looove that sink--please don't give up on it.

Your stove wall reminded me of a pic I saw recently on a website, linked below:

Here is a link that might be useful: click on pics for larger image

Deedles
Wow-1200 sq feet and with a beautiful kitchen.
I found a spot to store the cart between the kitchen and sun room on DHs side
So far he isn't yelping. When I redo the pantry, I hope to move it into there.
Wow-real stone- I am jealous - ours was icky t-111 siding and we replaced it with hardi siding - an improvement but not as nice as stone.

I could loan you 400 sq ft - LOL

mama goose: thank you for posting that link. I love their website. What a beautiful image of that stove with the arched wall behind it and the knotty pine in the background.

a2: if you loan me 400 ft, you'd never get it back. :) The stone is beautiful but it only goes partway up the wall. Someone once compared the outside of this house to a short chubby guy with his pants pulled up too high. :/