My daughter also wants me to ask you the LRV of the next one down on the chip sheet, Outback. On a quick glance, she likes that one better for the space and I generally learn a lot from her instincts...thanks again!

Hey Fly!

If it's OK, I'll check the formula's, etc. tomorrow at work. ACE doesn't seem to have the TDS, & MSDS info. available on the www!
It's avail. at the stores thru ACEnet. The newest stuff is there.

LRV...this is embarrassing! I haven't checked ACE's chips to see if any LRV info. is on them!!

I'm kinda on the fence anyway...as to the "actual" usefulness of the #. Sure, "color x" may have an LRV of 85, but it'll look different regardless...if placed in 10 different homes.

I can give you the formula-breakdowns...but remember...these would apply only if they use actual ACE colorants. Not every store would. There may be a few "rogues" out there!
(For instance...HD uses Behr colorants to tint the RL line: We use ACE's.)

Sounds like you've got a smart DD there!

Faron

Thanks, Faron--tomorrow's fine :) I know the LRV is not an absolute value, but within 10 pts or so I know how different levels perform in this crazy dim northern space we've got to deal with.

Hey Fly & Fly's-DD!

Sorry...couldn't locate any ACE LRV-data...dug thru ACEnet in lotsa places, but no luck.

For the Eggshell series paint:
VOC = 150g/L or less (for all ACE-Royal sheens)

Percent Volume Solids:
Eggshell = 34%
Flat = 39%
S/Gloss= 38%
Satin = 39%

Formula/colorants:
AXX is a bright Yellow.
L is "Raw Umber"...close to Hershey-bar brown, but a TOUCH of Olive to it.

Almond Cream, #C26-3
AXX = 58%
L = 42%
Ultra-White tintbase.

Outback, #C26-4
AXX = 60%
L = 40%
Midtone tintbase.
* This is base #2 of 4. A little less White (TI02) in this base relative to the Ultra-White; and a few oz's less fill-level.
* More total colorant-load though...

These are neat colors! Kinda that "Creamy/Olive-Khaki" group of popular neutrals.

Faron

Faron, this is *so* helpful--thanks for all the detailed information! I really appreciate your efforts to find the LRVs -- Lowe's doesn't offer them either for their Valspar paints--go figure. Interesting that both of these colors use the exact same colorants, just slightly different proportions. You id'd the feel I'm going for pretty perfectly--creamy khaki--trying to find the balance there between a dead tan and a dead cream, something lively and changing, with green undertones.

I am leaning more toward the lighter one, since it's a dark northern room...although something in the middle might be best, actually...do you have any idea how I'd go about finding the middle ground between these two?

Fly,
Since the 2 colors are in different bases, it's hard to define/hit the "middle" of the two.

I'm torn, but if I had to shoot your color, I'd do 150% of the Almond Cream formula in the U/W base. You'd be tickling the "limit" for colorant in that base, but it's within tolerances.
It would be slightly darker, but not halfway between.

Option 2...
See what "50% formula" of the Outback color dries to.
You could always add another "Quart" dispense to this if it was too light...you'd then be @ 75% of formula.

Faron

Excellent, Faron -- I'll try these. I wish you all had sample sizes, but for custom I'd have to do a quart anyway, so there you are.

I'll report back, if you're interested, what I end up doing -- I think it will be one of the two options above.

Thanks again!

Hey all :D,

fly, I have the fandecks for all of the colors at Lowe's except the new Martha colors. LRV is listed for all of the colors. Wonder why they're telling you they don't have 'em. Most Lowe's paint counters have the decks under the counter. All they have to do is pull them out and look.

Fly's use of LRV is spot-on. BRILLIANT!

"I know the LRV is not an absolute value, but within 10 pts or so I know how different levels perform in this crazy dim northern space we've got to deal with."

LRV is indeed a guideline and if you pay attention as you paint and sample and play with color it is possible to develop benchmarks - custom benchmarks - for the temperament of the lighting in your own space.

There are other was to use LRV too. 'Course since LRV deals strictly with one part of color, the measurable part of color which is radiant energy, you also have to evaluate the visual part too. Meaning consideration of color as a visual stimulus, not just energy that can be measured, is equally important.

When it comes to that measurable part, it can be really handy to know that LRV number. I'm particularly fond of using it as check for exteriors. There has to be the right contrast ratio between body and trim especially if we're using only one color just in different values. A quicky calculation can tell me if there's enough difference between two colors or if they are so close that no one will be able to tell (especially from a distance) that we've worked so darn hard choosing a color for each the body and trim and not just one for the whole shabang! That data can be helpful in encouraging a client that they need to go more dramatic. I can show them that it's not just my opinion (altho that should be enough! HA!) but that numerically their color choices are too safe and we need to crank up the drama to make it all work and worth the effort of painting.

That ratio calculation works well interior too. For example, when the colors chosen are close on various levels of contrast. In some cases, I've told clients that they might as well pick one color for the whole space because there isn't enough contrast on enough levels to enable the colors to read differently room from room.

I think it was F. L. Wright who liked to color adjacent spaces with dramatic contrasts. If you're going for drama and have the color bravado it takes to do that, it's really not that difficult. It's easy to find the right harmony and contrasts with bolder colors.

The more nuanced colors that are most often used interior aren't quite so clear-cut. Understanding how to use LRV can help cut thru some of the color chaos and winnow chip selection down to a volume that's more manageable.

Chroma notation is available as well for some color collections. Truly, those notations are the only things that make a paint fandeck a valuable color tool. The order of the color chips are of no significance relative to determining good color harmonies and translating colors and color combinations to 3D structure.

I found out that there's some on-line color class being offered to the tune of $800 or $1,200 that will send you fandecks with each of the colors numbered supposedly guaranteeing coordination and harmony. Have no idea what criteria they are basing their numbering system or guarantee on, but I tell ya what. There's nothing in those fandecks that ya can't figure out on your own if ya want to. It's not rocket science and it's not exclusive to self-proclaimed color guru's.

(I do believe I rambled! I apologize in advance for typos and grammar. I'm afraid to preview because I've been booted out twice and lost the whole thing. Just know I tried my best in this little window! Crossing my fingers that the submit button works.)

Gosh, I love it when you share your knowledge, funcolors :) (and faron, too, of course!) I'd love to know more about "chroma notation" -- which lines have it? What is it? Sometimes I'll go to colorcharts or easyrgb and try to see how colors relate to each other, but I'm really winging it.

What we're working with is a boring Devine Paints brown (can't remember which one, but it reminds me of dead skin) on walls that would be hard for me to repaint (double-height ceiling), and a dead Devine brick-red accent column that works its way through several rooms and up the stairs, and then the northern back area that could be anything (it's a very light yellow now, as I needed to get away from an even deader brown the PO had painted it).

The colors in most of our furniture and builtin elements are natural finish white oak flooring (golden, not so much red as in red oak), dark brown woods (Ikea Hallarum), glass-color (Green Tea corian, etched glass top on dining table), gold and a light green (Sicis glass mosaic backsplash I did myself :)). The red just doesn't relate to *anything*, so I'm wanting to replace the brick with a dark teal, actually--I mean *really* dark teal, like EK Emerald--which I see as the darker, saturated version of the Green Tea and the glass tabletop--it also makes the yucky brown in the front part of the house more liveable.

The color I asked about here is for the northern back part that wouldn't be with the Emerald -- I'm thinking that nexus faron described so well, creamy-khaki that would relate to the gold without being direct gold, and to the green as well. And would still not be a "cozy" Northern-exposure kind of color--I just can't take it.

Do you have any thoughts about these colors? Would the Outback tone hold its own against the Emerald? (which isn't really emerald green, more like a dark teal, as I read it) Do you think they'll work? If you feel like thinking about it, that is...the northern exposure is such a *bear*!

fly, I do have an ACE deck and can take a look at Outback with EK Emerald. Just need to wait for some daylight and I'll post back about your specific colors.

RE: Chroma notation. The ICI/Dulux colors and the NCS color system are the only two color collections I know of that include chroma notations. Doesn't mean others do not exist, I simply am not aware of them.

Chroma speaks to the intensity of a color. With the ICI notations, for example, the higher the chroma notation number, the more intense the color. So a low chroma notation tells me that the color is more muted, grayed, dulled, knocked-back. The higher the number, the more vivid, saturated, bright, intense.

The numbers are the numbers. A popular statement about color is that it vibrates true to frequency; it does not change. The fact that there is a constant frequency to color usually comes in handy when discussing physio and psycho aspects of color. But if you think about it, the fact that color is always out there in the form of radiant energy means that it's going to have a footprint that can be measured. If you can measure it, you can evaluate it. It's data.

Understanding LRV and chroma notations means color data can be put to use. We'll use your question about color in your post as an example. If the Outback and Emerald had those notations for me to refer to, I could speak to them right now and be rather confident in what I was saying especially in terms of your northern exposure. Even tho the light I have now is not good for viewing color, I could look at the color chips, and look at the numbers and put the nuances and characteristics of the colors together in my head. The numbers would tell me *parts* about the color that the light I have to work with right now would not accurately show me.

Without that data about Outback and Emerald, I need to wait until tomorrow when I have some daylight and can take the chips outside or over to my favorite color viewing window and draw conclusions and estimations about those colors with my own eyeballs. And speaking of eyeballs.

The numbers are great, but they do not tell the whole story. The tell the radiant energy story. They tell the color story from someone else's perspective. They do not and cannot speak to color as visual stimulus in situ. You need eyeballs to size color up that way.

In the case of architectural color in particular, it is not possible to color by the numbers alone but they help.

Anybody can start with the color skills and ability they have and progress and improve. The tools are out there, just have to know how to use them.