Waiting for the end result with panic and dread
needsometips08
14 years ago
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Comments (23)
Sherri Stein
14 years agoRelated Discussions
collection of citrus trees and panic attacks
Comments (27)John, Don't worry about thinking your are being too assertive... no offense is taken. I'm just genuinely curious as to why the soft water is perceived as being so terrible. I often see many quite firm statements on a variety of topics (water, fertilizer, temperature, sunlight, methods for planting in ground, etc...) related home gardening. There is a sound horticultural basis behind many of these recommendations, but at the same time I see many firm recommendations that for most people likely make no difference one way or the other. I don't see the point of having this huge list of varying do's and don'ts if a large portion of the recommendations either are minimally helpful, or don't really have any impact. When I began growing container citrus several years ago, I started out all gung-ho trying to do everything under the sun that was recommended to make my trees happy especially in winter (grow lights, supplemental heating, boosting the humidity, etc...). The end result invariably was sickly looking trees. I've had much better luck not really doing too much and allowing the trees to acclimate gradually on their own to whatever their current environment happens to be. Getting back to the soft water question. I completely agree that too much sodium chloride will kill plants, especially citrus. I would also add that too much salt of any kind could kill your plants, of course the lethal concentrations will vary quite widely depending on the specific toxicities. An ion exchange water softener does not add sodium chloride to the water. The sodium chloride is just used to regenerate the ion exchange resin by saturating it with sodium ions. The softening process only replaces the magnesium and calcium ions with sodium. The primary anion before and after treatment should remain carbonate, no additional chloride is added. Since sodium carbonate is much more soluble in water than either magnesium or calcium carbonate, one could argue that it would be more difficult to build up high concentrations of it in the container. This is assuming that one flushes their container with excess water on a semi regular basis. Nevertheless, I doubt this aspect really makes much significant difference one way or the other if the container is being flushed with water periodically. While thinking about this whole issue, I also came across several research papers that investigate the effects of salinity on citrus. The primary toxic effects of "salinity" on citrus are increased osmotic stress and specific ion toxicities. Again, if one is flushing their container with water semi-regularly, osmotic stress should never become an issue, as the excess accumulated salts will be washed out regularly. With respect to ion toxicity, the general consensus seems to be that chloride is a more significant issue than sodium. However, the water softening process does not really add any chloride to the the treated water, therefore its concentration is no different than in the untreated water. The concentration of sodium carbonate in the "softened" water is also not really ever going to be that high (in the neighborhood of 200 ppm, if the input water is classified as very hard). I've seen a study (link below) that subjected citrus to salt (sodium chloride and/or calcium chloride) at concentrations up to 6000 ppm. Although the differences in response to the salt challenge were clearly noticeable among the tested cultivars, the most significantly damaged trees only showed a "slight marginal burn" on the leaves. So even assuming there was 200 ppm sodium chloride in the softened water, it would take several months of watering with no flushing of the soil to build up to these high salt concentrations where there are clearly visible toxicity effects. In summary, I do not see any scientific basis for why "softened" water should be perceived as so bad for citrus culture. At the same time, there is not much evidence that it has any significant benefits. In the absence of finding any direct studies investigating this question, I think the issue is largely irrelevant for container citrus culture. If a few basic care practices are observed (mainly not treating your soil as a black hole in which an infinite amount of fertilizer and soluble salts from the water supply can be allowed to accumulate), it shouldn't really matter. I will add one final caveat, if signs of salt toxicity do happen to appear irrespective of the water source, then one should absolutely start trying to isolate and correct the problem. John, I'm curious to know if you have any additional thoughts. In any case, cheers, and thanks for the discussion! -Scott PS Susan, my sincere apologies for taking your thread off on a little tangent. Here is a link that might be useful: Salt tolerance of some citrus...See MoreThe ever dreaded fungus gnat
Comments (62)I "believe" I've had success with a two part attack. I heat my plant water to 50C, and make a mixture that is one part hydrogen peroxide and 3 parts water. For really large pots, I would place the pot in a large enough bowl/saucer to hold water, and add water to the bottom to come up 2 inches, then water from the top with more of the 50C hydrogen peroxide water. Supposedly the bubble action of the peroxide is enough to kill off the larvae near the surface, and the heat of the water does too. I would always find dead whitish larvae on the outside of the bottom of the larger pots from the bottom watering. This has to be done continually, with all plants, over a period of a time. My numbers began to decrease, then all disappeared. Now I see a few back again, but I've been making nursery purchases, and keeping in the house because it is too cool to keep outside (coleus, potato vine, begonias etc). I just keep up with warmer water (now at body temp, and a smaller percentage of hydro peroxide, about 1 part to 4). Apparently, herbs and plants that have scented leaves to not appreciate this treatement, but I have not had one houseplant or outside garden plant die from it. I purchase the 3% mix from the local big box store, cheapest I can find if 1 litre/$2. Nearby reputable nursery purchases the 30% stuff (which would apparently eat the skin of your hand in seconds if applied! Yikes!) and apply a week solution to their plants for part of their bug control method. It bubbles as it sinks through the planting medium, and fluffs it up, sometimes too much, so the soil it puffed up like a muffin or cupcake would when done baking in the oven. So once I feel I've got the #'s of gnats under control, I weaken the mixture (1 to 4 or 5 water), then it doesn't foam up so much. I am now addicted to watering this way, especially the succulents in winter, gives them a drink but doesn't leave them wet for long, soil dries out faster. Summer they all get straight water. I also operate some indoor worm bins, and one know that one for certain is a breeding ground for those pests, so I keep it wrapped in a bedsheet that I change with each feeding. I freeze the sheet with the flies trapped in it to kill them, then shake 'em out on the deck or in the tub (winter) and rinse them away and start over. But in the general area of the house, except for the odd couple I've noticed in the past 3 weeks (due to not being able to say no to taking home bedding plants because it's too cold for them to live long in the Canadian Tire greenhouse here!) I think I've got a good handle on them. ~kioni~...See MoreFound out we are moving to Denver - in a bit of a panic!
Comments (37)ladynimue -- I, too, am an older parent! (I had my eldest at 34 so I'm now 38.) I don't know where you are (and I'm not prying -- please don't read it that way) but 'round here, "older" is normal. The other mothers with whom I spend the most time all started in their mid-late thirties / early forties. One of my friends is going through perimenopause and she lets us have a good laugh about having within the past few years finished nursing and now hot flashes! Another just turned 45 and is pregnant. I do not think you'll be odd woman out here, ladynimue. Based on my experiences both in living here plus when we were househunting and the parents we met then, you should fit right in! I also wanted to tell you how phenomenal we are finding the medical community(-ies) to be here. Our "home" hospital in CA was Stanford -- a v. (internationally) well-regarded hospital. Well, they certainly failed my younger (now 20 months) son. He was ill from birth on, and his pediatric team kept brushing us off, blaming my concerns on my PPD. ("You worry too much." "You need to calm down.") We moved out here (to CO) and within a fortnight had his well-baby visit. I started my spiel about his issues when the ped. immediately stopped me, saying "something's clearly not right here." Finally!!! After we got to the root of it, I became crazy-angry, both with the Stanford pediatricians but mostly with myself. (Mother's guilt -- I should've somehow divined what was wrong with him or somehow persevered with others, which I realize now. But at the time, with a two year-old, PPD, an ill newborn and selling our house I felt lucky to feed my older and nurse my younger without crying hysterically.) My younger son is part of the Child Find program (it's federally mandated, locally funded); it helps children with issues (whatever they are) get better. He has physical, occupational and speech therapists who all come to our house every single week. I'd say within two months of that well-baby visit he was enrolled in the Child Find program and progress was underway! (He's now doing great -- not yet caught up, but moving apace and, more importantly, he's healthy!!!) I mention this because good friends of ours back in SF whose son is on the autistic spectrum are on a two year waitlist to see a speech therapist (through the same program, different name there). If we'd had to wait two years goodness only knows where we'd be! (Clearly we'd just do it privately but you get my point.) Also, about three weeks after we moved out here I came down with Shingles (although we didn't know what it was at first), centered in my inner ear. It paralyzed my face and that's what got me to the MD tout de suite. I didn't know an MD, just called the local hospital, explained my symptoms and they responded with "how quickly can you get here?" Within thirty minutes I was seen and within ninety minutes I was having a CAT scan (to rule out stroke or tumor, although they did discover I have Grave's Disease, another thing about which I'd been complaining to my Stanford MDs only to be told "yeah, everybody's tired all the time -- it's called 'motherhood.'"). Later that day they determined it must be Shingles (although I didn't yet have any blisters). Because of it paralyzing my face my eyes were in trouble (Shingles can cause severe and permanent damage to the eyes): the MD's office called the MD's personal opthamologist (I mean the one she goes to see) and had them see me that day as well. I'll tell you, I have never felt so cosseted! (and my MDs office also made an appointment for me with my MDÂs endocrinologist  again, I didnÂt have to worry about "who should I see?") Whenever I recount this story to any locals (meaning folks who live here in CO), to a one they say "I know, I get superlative care here, far exceeding whatever I received where I lived before." My son's progress and the immediate and thorough care I received are merely two examples. I just wanted to tell you another thing we love about CO. If solely for my son's sake I am forever grateful we moved out here. But the truth is, we love all of it! -Brooke...See Morekitchen panic
Comments (37)You have to laugh. Crying is too damn boring and makes your eyes puffy so then in addition to money pit issues, you look fugly. Nope, only laughter to deal with panic from now on. And guys and gals, you really have to pay attention to what workers are doing. Today when I thought the laid tiles would be grouted, the upper cabinets went up. Ok. Not worried BUT THEN THE LOWER CABINETS WERE BEING PUT OUT. I'm like "excuse me, but what about grouting the tile under the cabinets." "Oh that's not necessary." WHAAATTTT. I was like, "oh I don't think so." So they removed the base cabinets which were just sitting there so not that big a deal and grouted ALL the tiles. HELLO!!!! Must remember to stay alert at all times (NOTE TO SELF.) In all honesty, I did say I wanted the job done as quickly as possible and as inexpensively as possible so they're trying to cut corners, I suppose, is to be expected. But not that corner! No photos today because white painted maple against white primer on walls on top of white-ish marble-ish floor tiles equals PAINFUL. I feel like I should be doing a WHITE EXPLOSION thread with katiee511!...See Morespinmomnj
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