You should insist they do it right! This is a substandard installation on top of a substandard installation. IMO, it's just tough you-know-whatthat they don't want to move the island and totally remove the floor and reinstall from square one: THEIR problem, not yours. The installation is guaranteed for LIFE (did they say whose?) and that means they have to do it again the correct way. Unacceptable! Stand your ground or you will be sorry.

Well debi, the problem I see with the chorus of "insist they do it right till you are happy" responses that I portend you will see is that you *are* in a rock and a hard place - and it is one that I can stand with you on because I had just these sorts of problems with my painful tile installation going awry because of a misinstalled subfloor story.

The trouble with insisting they do it right - which BTW they can - is that as you know your kitchen is 99% done and you're going to have a battle with the range and the cabinets etc for the floor to be made just so. The floor guys are NOT going to take on the responsibility for tackling ANYTHING but the floor and the Range guys will go la-la-la about anything that is not the range, ditto for cabinet people, plumbing people etc. To do the flooring correctly, you have to start over with the kitchen rebuilding which means you have to start over with the kitchen dismantling. :-( At this point, YOU are the one who is going to have to make compromises to figure out how you can get both the floor AND the range AND the cabinets to co-exist. If you insist on doing things your way and want them to provide that warranty, the flooring guys really can make things difficult for you and tell you that to do it right, you need to get the room configured such that a flooring situation can be effected. Which means that they will want you to move your island, range, maybe even your cabinets, not to mention that the attention to detail you put in to get your range-granite interface just so, will have to be reworked.

This is one problem with this forum, IMO. While there are very informed people who will give you brilliant insight, creative workarounds and excellently practical advice, there are a whole host who will behave like children and tell you that you should hold fast until it is "just the way you want it".

Anyhow, here are my suggestions (1) frankly, I don't see anything. Can you and are you willing to take a stay on the execution in that if the problem is worse in 9 months time THEN go the replacement route. If not, leave things be. (2) Alternatively, if they are willing to put down new vinyl over what you have then they and you are not looking to preserve this one. Instead of fussing with raising the floor 1/4" or 3/8", how about look into having the vinyl cut away from the cabinets and removed. Shore up the seams of the plywood underlayment as they say it should be. Then put the new vinyl over this.

I'm in the process of picking out vinyl sheeting also. I was told it could be installed over our existing vinyl flooring (still in good condition, not my style). The installers would do a 'skim coat' over the existing vinyl to cover any pattern and existing seams. Then lay down the new stuff. I don't know if this helps or not. BTW Debi, what vinyl did you go with, as it looks similiar to what I'm leaning towards? Best of luck!

Well, I see it.

don't leave it, whatever you do. I *will* end up worse later.

Do NOT let them go "up to" the baseboard. That's not an option; there's a reason baseboard goes on last, and that's to hide the groove (makes it a horizontal one too low to be seen, instead of a vertical one pointing right up at people's eyes.

I think Mindstorm has some good thoughts.

Her No. 2 is mostly what I did w/ my vinyl whe it was lumpy (which caused it to be damaged when the dishwasher and range were moved). We:
-removed the cabinet toekick
-moved out the appliances (yes, even our range; it's a stand-alone, so it wasn't so hard)
-took out the two small freestanding base cabinets (they were only 9" wide and flush w/ the door frame, and I was NOT going to have non-matching quarter-round molding in my doorway at the bottom of the SIDES of these cabinets; it wasn't that much work to take them off)
-took out the refrigerator panel
-cut the vinyl next to the cabinets themselves (minus that toekick)
-pulled up the vinyl (this dropped the floor about 1/4"; if they did this, would that give you just enough clearance for your warming oven?) (***if you do this, make them scrape down those bulges so they don't telegraph through the 1/4" luan)
-laid down/4" luan under to smooth it out
-reinstalled vinyl--under the dishwasher, under the stove, under the fridge, too
-reinstalled toekicks

My guy didn't take the baseboard off, bcs he'd glued it to the wall and he didn't want to deal w/ fixing the damage that would result when he took it of. That means he than put quarter-round there, which to this day ticks me off mightily. I had selected a single piece of bullnose-topped molding bcs I wanted only ONE horizontal surface to clean, and now I have two. Every time I have to wipe it off, I mutter.

That's the one thing I think I would go through the pain of: removing the baseboards. If you are willing to add another piece of trim to your baseboards, you could do what my guy did (you wouldn't have to use quarter-round, there are others; my main 1920s baseboard is a large board and a small one at the bottom)

I think you could leave your island, esp. if you could get matching molding to cover the cut edges of the vinyl.

You probably should fiddle with the range again.

What is their plan to deal w/ the fact that this identical, seamless-looking vinyl floor will not have two subtly different levels? I think they owe you for that. Giving that up would be a huge thing for me, were I in your shoes. It would have been important to me, for ease-of-cleaning purposes, that this be all one level, no dividers between rooms, etc. If they're not going to deal with the WHOLE area to make it all one level, then I'd want something. I'd want them to pay to re-install the range because they screwed up.

And in fact, if this guy screwed up in the kitchen area, then there are going to be the same problems in other areas. So they need to do the whole job again, right.

I agree with talley-sue - remove the baseboards, remove the toe-kick etc. remove as much as necessary such that the seam will be completely hidden. Toekicks and baseboard should certainly be possible to move. Appliances - well the DW and fridge really ought to be moved also because should they leak, you don't want any water permeating through a seam (although, of course there will be a seam now because you can no longer go under the cabinets to the sides of the DWs. Oh well.). Of course, that is going to require bringing the plumber back.

These sorts of improper underlayment, structural etc. issues are really a nightmare. If it makes you feel any better, I had a 7foot long crack through about 6 or 7 tiles all because of the underlayment score. Our tiles went under all the cabinetry and the "proper" fix would have been to completely uninstall the kitchen demolish all the tile so that the underlayment could be fixed. Needless to say, I wasn't ready for TWO remodels in the space of a few months so we "compromised" with a solution that didn't involve a complete second remodel to give us a solution that has repaired the problem with a pretty decent local fix. And now we just pray a lot that the rest of the floor hangs together. :-)

BTW, I owe everyone here an sincere apology. I could have SWORN I'd deleted my unnecessary observation about the forum but, much to my horror, I see it right there in the writeup. That really should have remained a very private and very edited thought. I'm so sorry about that. If you can unread it, I would be so grateful.

Thanks for your responses.

Raynag - Yes, this store is known for their lifetime install guarantee/warranty. I think that's why they do so well with sales in this county.

RMindstorm - I have to jot down all the things we've done after the install that will affect redoing the entire floor the right way. DH is the plumber, range & cabinet installer, etc. DH & I DIYed everything except for the floor and granite which we left to the "pros". BTW, the floor does not continue under the cabinets and we have not installed the toe kick yet so that's alot of work that doesn't need to be revisited. The floor does pertrude under the DW and range however. Your #2 may be a consideration. I have to put all my cards on the table as to MY best suggestions for them to fix their screw up to gain the same result we have now.

Tally Sue- Messing with that range is a last resort, but if I want it done right, I have no other choice. Fiddling with that range is my #1 concern.

As for the 2 levels, I'm sure the rep didn't give that any thought. I don't know where her head is at on that one. Of course, it's not her home. I will not allow them to do it their way, because it is wrong - an easy fix for them, but wrong all the same.

Ngng - Below is a link for the floor we bought. Our's is #S3042. We bought it from a Flooring America Franchise. We do get alot of compliments on the floor and believe it or not, people think it's real tile - go figure.

I'm visualizing in my head how this ordeal means "unbuilding" the newly built kitchen because of the installer's mess. At this point, I want to get the tech, installer and whomever else from the store here to see what they are up against, with my list in hand, no doubt. I have no intention of putting $$ out of my pocket (again)to redo any of this work due to someone else's inadequacies.

It's always something, isn't it?

Oops...I made some corrections to my previous post, but they didn't come through. One was correcting Mindstorm's name.

Hmmm. It sounds like they didn't leave any expansion joints for the plywood. Plywood usually is installed with slight gaps so it can expand without buckling. The epoxy may not be flexible or may be popping up. Have you looked into whether this filler is standard? I've never heard of it.

The bumps appeared between March and October - summer. The most humid (usually) time of year. Usually I'd say get some of the humidity out and the floors will go back down. But the epoxy may mean it won't.

I don't see how covering it 1/4 plywood will help. Are they going to epoxy those gaps as well? I would find out how it should be done so there are no humps, and I would make them strip it down and do it correctly.

Debi, thanks for the link and information! It looks beautiful, I have to go to my local store and see it in person. Good luck!

I have installed a Karndean vinyl floor in my kitchen (squares) but the prep process is the same. What you have shown in your pictures should not happen if the job was done properly. The subfloor should have been made secure first (I screwed mine down to remove squeeks). Then 1/4 hardwood underlayment should have been put down and stapled with 1/4" crown staples every few inches along the edges of the underlayment and maybe every 8 to 10 inches in the center. After this step, the staple marks (which are recessed slightly by using the right PSI on the pneumatic stapler) are filled, along with any unevenness at the seams. After sanding, the result is a perfectly smooth flat surface to lay the flooring on.

From the photo, it appears that your underlayment is peeling up.

I would not settle for less than pulling up the improperly installed underlayment and redoing it. Obviously, the baseboards and the island and the range are not the flooring company's problem, so you will need to address those issues. I have electric stove, so I moved all of that stuff myself.

I personally would stand firm on wanting the faulty underlayment removed and replaced properly, but you will need to be willing to deal with the other issues yourself.

Sorry to hear about your horror story.

Pete

I'd like to throw a thought into the mix. I usually agree wholeheartedly with wise mindstorm and talley_sue! They have so much wisdom, as do many others here.

I had the exact problem in another brand new house. The solution was not solved with 1/4" luan because the first sub floor was so faulty and the impression was still seen. I do believe Pete's suggestion may solve the problem. Our problem was just too visible even through the thicker Armstrong floor covering we used. (This was not Armstrong's fault. It was a the builder's installer that mucked up the job.)

So, DH and I got down to remove both of the sub floors to start over. Oh. My. Goodness. WHAT a nasty job that was for us! AGAHST! THE dimwits used permanent, dragon breathing construction glue on the original wood floor and it was tearing up the framing job the silent floor system. ANYWAY...it was a mess. DH and I did get off the second 1/4" luan and then had to put on a thicker sheet of concrete board of some type. I'm so sorry, I've forgotten what it was now.

The purpose in my writing was to tell you that since the floors were now higher, we ended up using a reducer transition strip going from the higher floor to the lower floor covering. Also, FWIW, since we had such a hard time and failed to properly removed the first sub flooring and vinyl, we talked ourselves into doing wood floors, since the 1/4" luan trick failed to smooth out the issues with the failed install.

After all of that, we learned: always put floor coverings under your counters. You can't get appliances out if you need to replace them if the floors are too high and there is no clearance for appliances to be removed to be fixed or replaced.

Also, put your baseboards and shoe moldings on top of hard floor coverings; never glue them into place as suggested. (For those that don't know, baseboards in carpeted areas are usually installed before the carpeting.)

debi2006, sorry for your troubles...i am another voice that has been there. and isn't it frustrating to know that DIYers sometimes do better than the pros? after taking a fair amount of ridicule from pros? either kind of remodeling, DIY or pro, is a gamble in my opinion. mindstorm is right, i think, that it is more complicated than simply insisting everything be made right. that's the nature of the process...good or bad. righteous indignation is just so much fun though!!

1/4 lauan is not thick enough to fix this problem..your humps will still be there, only smoother humps. i hope that you can find a way to fix it...the appeal of the sheet vinyl in the first place is its evenness!! baseboards cover edges of sheet flooring, yes. sherilynn i have never heard that about carpet, interesting. ngng what they talked about with the SLC over the previous vinyl sounds like it would work to me.

so...i think you have some demo in your future..maybe getting a settlement from the company rather than trying to continue to work with them is the best option...small claims court? i don't see a quick way out of this one...even a complete reinstall is tricky for all involved. good luck kren

BTW, i am a person that trips on floor height adjusters...i tortured hubby so that our mudroom, kitchen, and dining room would all end up the same height..we had to get creative with subfloor levels. BUT i couldn't be happier and i haven't tripped between rooms since we did it.

I have to agree with the other opinions - we did DIY after talking to installers as I didn't want Luan... we used a 1/2 in plywood with a nicer 1/4 inch plywood instead of the Luan with the vinyl floor goop (sorry, forget the technical term right now) - the mix of powder and liquid to fill in the seams and screw holes and we have no problems and we used the $50 off the shelf vinyl. I'd have it ripped out and redone with plywood vs. luan. They can cut it out near the cabinets but not touching them and redo it.

Here's a sample of a reducer strip I have in my house now. This is going from a travertine floor that sits higher than the lower wood floors. I have a few of these in my home now. I *think* that this is about a 1/2" difference between floor heights. There is nothing here to trip over.

An online definition of a transition reducer strip: A teardrop shaped molding accessory for flooring, normally used at doorways from wood or tile to vinyl or carpet, but sometimes at fireplaces, glass sliding doors, or used as a room divider. It is grooved on one edge and tapered, or feathered, on the other edge. Reducer strips vary in height.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your replies and suggestions. The plywood they put down for the subfloor is 1/2". I remember seeing the installers nail or screw everything, followed by a liquid that fills in any gaps/holes/seams/etc. The entire vinyl is glued down. The humps have worsened and more of them have appeared since the tecnician was here to inspect in November.

I measured 2 of the bigger humps and in fact they are 48" apart - plywood seam to seam evidently.

I have a meeting scheduled next Wednesday with the same technician and another guy from this store. I'll be interested to see what resolution we all come to agree with when they see this sub-standard workmanship. My DH will be here for this one for sure.

There's alot of $$ and time at stake here, and surely I'm not looking forward to ripping my new kitchen apart, but my choices are limited in getting the right end result.

I'll keep you all posted after our meeting as to what's happening. And, I'll be sure to get everything in writing too.

The subfloor is the main structural flooring material...usually 3/4" or so. The underlayment is secured on top of this to provide a smooth surface for the flooring. This is usually 1/4 hardwood plywood (I used maple) for sheet flooring and it is very smooth from the factory. That way, the seams and staple holes get filled, everything is sanded and you can run your fingers across the whole floor and it feels great. The slightest imperfections will show through soft flooring over time.

Did they put 1/2" plywood down as underlayment on top of the plywood subfloor?

Good luck,
Pete

Pete:

I suppose I thought the subfloor was the plywood sheeting, but I guess I'm wrong. Here's what we have as the kitchen floor:

The structural wood when they build the house. Followed by new 1/2" screwed in plywood that they installed in the same direction as the subfloor. Should it be? They did fill in the holes/gasp. Then they glued down the vinyl.

I suppose there could be reasons for using 1/2" depending on the thickness of the subfloor, or the desired final height of the finished floor. But, in my opinion, the underlayment should be very smooth, not just regular plywood.

Also, it is common practice to lay the underlayment in the opposite direction of the subfloor and such that no seams fall on top of each without being perpendicular (if that makes sense). This covers the subfloor seams with underlayment so they don't show in the sheet flooring.

Pete

UPDATE --

After coming by and checking out the floor again, I got a call from the store today saying the only way to repair the floor is to remove baseboards, appliances, granite/island, etc. and put down 1/4" luan, then vinyl overtop of the existing floor. They said they won't pull everything up because the previous floor that they layed last year with 1/2" plywood was screwed (tons of screws) into tongue and groove subfloor. Will pulling everything up to start over weaken the tongue/groove subfloor?

Do I have options? Thanks.

hi debi2006
that doesn't sound good to me. can you get a second opinion? about the tongue and groove subfloor, we pulled up original nailed tongue and groove wood floor from a regular 3/4 inch board subfloor...some of the subfloor had to be repaired, but it can be done. if your subfloor is tongue and groove, it should be able to survive, especially screws that are backed out. the glue is the real pain and getting through the glue to the screws is the potentially impossible part. bad news all around and definitely they will lose money if they must pull up the subfloor. do you trust these people to go back and do something again?

sherilynn, i disagree with you about the tripping on a transition, even a slight rounded edge can cause tripping if you hit it just right (wrong). i have seen the kids also go down when they hit these transitions. some people are much less sure footed than others...maybe if you regularly wear shoes it's not a problem. but they are used and they can look nice, so the do-over with transitions might be a solution. good luck kren

Debi, I am so sorry this is happening to your vinyl. Your floor is what sold me on getting vinyl too. Mine was installed on cement so I am no help regarding the subfloor. I guess I was different in the way I wanted mine done. I wanted the flooring last (didn't want all the workmen scratching it up). My kitchen is 13 x 22 and since the floor was only 12 wide, we decided to have the seam run at the island which also made it run under the fridge. They pulled the fridge out but not the range or d/w. We do not have vinyl under the range but they cut it so that it was tucked under about 4". My cabinets have shoe moulding around them and then baseboards along the wall. I hope these pics give you a better idea.
Before:

I've been waiting to see your finished backsplash but I know this is more important right now. I hope they can fix this for you. I think I'd get another opinion if they still say they can't.

Here's what I don't get. If the luan is on plywood, why can't they just cut down 1/4 inch near the cabinets, and replace the luan that way or did they glue it down. We used 1/2 inch plywood, then set another 1/4 inch plywood on top of that, screwed it down, then used the two part seam and nail filler to cover all holes. Personally, I would not move the island nor would I agree to use luan. We did DIY for that very reason - every installer wanted a lot of money for a tiny kitchen using luan and I wanted a plywood subfloor.

If you use a quarter-round (or similar - I wanted something with more detail), you can get the vinyl very close to the cabinets but not exact and you have some give. People replace their flooring all the time without moving their island.

I would:
1) tell them you want the subfloor upgraded from luan to 1/4 inch plywood with the better finish (I forget what it is called)
2) they are to get close, within a few inches but are not to remove the cabinets and work around as you are taking a huge risk of harming the cabinets and who is responsible if there is damage
3) you want them to use the filler made to go under vinyl floor (I can look and tell you what we used) for all seams and screw holes) to prevent this issue
4) you want the floor removed as if it is shifting now, the new floor will shift too

Natesgrandma: Your kitchen is lovely!

Debi,

You say they want to lay 1/4 luan OVER the existing vinyl? When you say existing floor what EXACTLY do you mean? Are they going to remove the old vinyl and leave the sub-floor?

Do they know what is causing the problem? I would like to hear what the cause is, and how 1/4 luan is going to solve it. Have you spoken to other flooring places to get their opinions? As someone else said, would 1/4 top quality plywood with the very very smooth finish (made for vinyl floors) be of better quality than luan?

Are they prepared to replace granite/island if they are problems with removing them?

So, just to summarize, am I right in understanding that there was never a 1/4 " layer of smooth material place alternatingly over your 1/2" plywood? And it is the seams of that plywood that are coming up and showing under the vinyl?

So, that even though you said in your original post that you would NOT let them put 1/4" and then new vinyl over your floor, that IS what you are now contemplating?

raehelen: When I say existing floor I mean that we have the subfloor (the wood construction put in when the house was built - tongue/groove floor), then new 1/2" plywood (is this the underlayment?) which they layed in the same direction as the subfloor, then the new vinyl. Yes, it appears to be the seams of the plywood that are humping up and showing under the vinyl.

I don't believe they know what the cause is, but I will be requesting a written report tomorrow - just in case this gets ugly. My opinion is that they want to lay the 1/4" luan and new vinyl on top of what's there because it's easier and cheaper for them, however, I will not accept this fix. It's just not right, plus, luan isn't going to control the existing humps, and will make my floor that much higher which is unacceptable.

No, they never put down smooth 1/4" of anything before putting down the vinyl. Were they suppose to?

Nates: I wish I had cement as the ground floor, however, we have an underground basement. As for the b'splash, it's still not grouted. We have some other things happening, so that's on the back burner. I will forward pics when it's done (hopefully as soon as this floor issue is resolved).

pcjs: Luckily, in this instance, we didn't put the vinyl under the cabinets. It's cut up to it. They did use filler under the vinyl (& on top of the 1/2" ply). This is the part that they are worried about - getting the screws up with that filler on top of them.

Another headache to our almost finished remodel. I feel like I'm back at step one.

You can pick out that filler depending on what they used - I tried it just to make sure in case we wanted to use something else/tile in the future as I used a lot of screws. I didn't want the kitchen higher than the living room. It would be a nightmare to do, but you can do it.

The luan is what is causing the problem - that needs to be pulled up and replaced with plywood not luan. Standard practice is luan and no one we talked to was willing to use nicer plywood even at our insistance. Luan is the smooth surface - the didn't need to use something different. We made the choice to use better plywood as we choose DIY/better materials with the money we saved on labor (so, we probably aren't saving any money and its a lot of work, but we are getting some better stuff).

Even if you put the vinyl under the cabinets, vinyl is easy to cut, but it also depends if they used the glue down method vs. tape. We taped ours down just in case I wanted to change my mind in the future or we ruined it redoing the hardwood floors or something else given we are redoing the rest of the house. We glued our one seam under the fridge and we probably didn't need vinyl under there but we have the ice maker and I know what's under there (I also put it under the oven but not dishwasher except where I could reach).

The real questions are how did the put it down and they probably are trying to do what is easiest for them.

I would want the 1/4 inch luan removed and replaced with 1/4 plywood, screw down (not nail) with deck screws so they will not rust and are solid and they need to be counter-sinked, it filled (let it set for a few days), sanded smooth, then use the tape method for the vinyl, cover with molding. (I did everything but lifting the plywood and the molding myself (husband did that), so it is an easy thing to do, so don't let them tell you how hard it is and I am not a big woman). Putting down vinyl is one of the easiest things we've done (and windows surprisingly).

Debi, were you the one who they put the wrong color in? If you were, I'm not so sure given this is the second mistake, I'd want them fixing it.

Debi: I don't have any floor advice, but I just wanted to offer my sympathy, as i understand what you are going through! I hope your case turns out better than mine. I was able to get a full refund from my counter fabricator, and am left with a cracked counter. Do you have the option of getting a full refund, and turning the repair (if you choose to do one) over to someone else? In my case, the situation got ugly really fast, and I felt I could never trust the fabricator to fix it in an honorable way. I fear you may be in a similar position.

I would definitely get a second opinion. Have 2 or 3 flooring places come out simply to give you an estimate on fixing the problem. You will probably learn a lot about laying floor by doing so, and you will have more influence over the current installer.

Good luck!

Francy

I don't know how far you want to take this, but I had to hire a certified flooring inspector (someone who often appears as an expert witness in court) to write a report about the issues I had with my wood floors. He took pictures, diagnosed the issues, and supplied a detailed written report. I think it cost about $250. I recall that he inspected all kinds of floors, so maybe someone like that could nudge the flooring guys in the right direction.

Hi Sue:

Thanks for the info as I didn't know there were people out there that are "certified floor inspectors". I did contact a floor inspector this morning who gave me some info on the phone and will do an inspection when/if I need it. You were right on with the cost of $250 + court (if it goes that far).

pcjs-

From what I understand, the installers laid the vinyl directly over the plywood- they did NOT put a 1/4" luan layer under the vinyl. So, whatever is causing the problem is from the seams in the plywood. This is why I wonder how putting a thin 1/4" layer of luan would help (let alone the height problems it now adds). The only thing the luan would do, is perhaps 'smooth out the irregularities, so that over an eight foot span you wouldn't see/notice the humps anymore. ie, the 'humps' would still be there, UNDER the 'fix'.