I dont think that an off center sink is a big deal, especially if the window is larger. A sink and window of about the same size seem like they should be lined up, but if the window is 50-100% bigger than the sink, I think that gives you room to play. I cannot remember specifics, but I have seen other photos here of large windows with off center sinks, and done right (ie, de-emphasizing symmetry overall) I think it would look fine!

Personally, if I was going to enlarge the window, I'd enlarge it the same distance both to the left and to the right. I'm not sure it would look right going all the way into the corner. BTW...moving a sink slightly to the left or right is going to cost a lot less $$$ than putting in a new larger window. Aside from the window cost, I believe you're going to have to add a header to the areas where there wasn't previously any window and also do some fixing up around the window on the outside of the house.

Having an off-center sink would bug me. I don't exactly see what's wrong with the window you have now--looks quite nice, actually. Is it old and drafty? I think the layout of your kitchen, from this one picture seems fine.

But that's just my opinion--I would save the money on that 2-3" of extra window bringing it to the counter and splurge somewhere else.

:)
Sarah from Albany, NY

Thank you all very much.

I forgot to say that I cannot add to the window on the right side as there is a room off to that side - it would be a really tight fit and not worth gaining the *maybe* 3 or so inches I could get.

The window in there will probably have to be replaced within a year or so anyway - the interior sill is gone and the right hand crank is broken - you have to close the window from the outside.

I can't move the sink to the right (dishwasher) and I can't move it to the left (lose valuable counterspace next to the stove.

You know what it is... I've seen those windows brought down to counterspace level and I think they are unbelieveably beautiful. The other thing is that I really hate the corner cab set up. I don't really want to get an upper corner cab - I don't really like them too much. I was thinking of just not putting a cabinet in that space to the left of the window and bringing a replacement window further to the left. The thought of an unaligned sink bugs me though and I don't think I've ever seen a picture of one off center to a kitchen window.

Here's the prelim new cabinet placement. Actually, I am thinking of bringing the cabinets on the far right down to the counter - have 15' cabinets - bottom one to hold the toaster, etc. and the one above it to hold a small tv. I'm just not thrilled with the corner layout and I am at a loss.

Possible suggestion?:
Run the uppers on the stove wall straight over to the window wall...No corner cabinet and no cabinet to the left of the sink. Then cut the cabinet to the right of the sink back from the window enough to balance the space on the other side, and to make up for lost space, put the upper over the end bank of drawers down to the counter.

Oh...The longer window:

Thank you so much! I think I really like what you've done - nothing that I would have thought of doing! In fact, if I leave the window about the same width and lower it like you've shown, I could actually think of one of those 'garden windows' where you can grow plants or herbs even in cold south of Boston! I also think it looks less cluttered around the window area.

Here is the preliminary layout of the kitchen - the soffets will come down and the closet next to the fridge will come down. Aside of the window and corner cabinet situation which I think you've solved for me, my other thorn is the island... I need seating for five and generally a couple of hangers on. We haven't used the kitchen table in years, everyone likes to sit at the counter (all squashed in with the way it is set up). I am so afraid to have an island that is way too huge and overwhelming for the room. I thought if I could shape the end round, we could fit more people... but it looks to me that it is just a weird shape that looks like a thermometer or even worse... ;-)

Thanks again for all your help. We're adding on a room (you can see it beyond those french doors in the picture) and adding a laundry room and shower to an existing half bath... but it's the kitchen remodel that is so difficult.

All the appliances will be replaced with stainless (and as I mentioned, either a CD fridge or hopefully I can recess that wall a bit) and the floors will be wood - a thicker plank and going in the opposite direction as the floor in the picture above. I look all the time at the lovely cream cabs in the finished kitchen section and I cannot decide whether to keep the island cream or a lightly stained wood. Also going back and forth between soapstone or granite in black. Along that back wall, I am looking for counterspace - more for buffet style meals. There will be a beverage center there as well. If I have to get a CD fridge, I am afraid their small size (french doors seem to be only around 20 cu) won't accomodate all the every day stuff we have in our current 24 cu sxs.

Thank you again, I appreciate all the help! The cabinet place I am going to - they are very nice but not that helpful with suggestions. I'm pretty decorating challenged.

Are you saying you want seating for 7 at the island? That's a lot of seating space! If you went w/NKBA Guidelines of 24" per seat, that would be 14 feet! Were you thinking of squeezing all 7 seats on the curved end of the island?

What are the various dimensions of your kitchen? Walls, windows, doorways, etc. What about the island as you've drawn it? Where do the doorways lead (& how wide are they)?

I'm concerned that even as it is you don't have enough room behind the current rounded end of the island for seating + a walkway. You need at least a 48" aisle, preferably 60".

We definitely need some dimensions...aisle widths, overall size of the room, width of the island, etc. From the overhead view, the island looks like it starts about the middle of the sink, which would only be about 30" from the range...and I'm hoping that's not correct!

Do you know/care that you won't be able to access those drawers on the right end of the sink run with someone seated on that side? It's hard to tell in this type of drawing, but I don't think the bulb shape will help you get more people there, and crowds already narrowish aisles even more, so maybe just keep it straight?

If this plan could be drawn on graph paper, or at least be a regular floor plan drawing with measurements, it'd be easier to see what's going on and make suggestions for improvement.

I have several ideas on this. First off, maybe one of the GW folks would photoshop that kitchen so that you could have a better idea of what the larger window might look like if it weren't centered over the sink. Your kitchen seems to be a little bit dark, so I'm voting for enlarging the window in whatever way you can. However, you're the only one who can determine whether or not assymetry will bother you.

I listened to the cabinet people who convinced me to make everything centered and I really wish I hadn't. My kitchen would have been much more usable if they hadn't insisted that I have mirror-image on either side of the sink & stove. Not only that, but I don't think having an off-center sink would have bothered me.

Next, I just went through this whole how-many-people- can-we-seat-at-the-island thing too. Everyone advised me that it wouldn't work. Eventually, they had me convinced that I was making a mistake, but I held firm. My island seats at least five, which is way up from the three it seated before. Tape it out and pay attention to Rhome's advice re: doors, drawers and walkways.
I think your floorplan looks good. Hope you can work it all out the way that will suit you in the long run.

rhome410... good point about not being able to acccess those drawers when there is a seated person at the 'table'. I happen to have a 45" round glass table on the porch and I moved it in the house and put counter height chairs around it. You're right. I don't know if I care so much since the storage in those drawers I think will be stuff like griddles, slow cookers, etc. What I care about is that the seated are not in the sink/stove area.

Debsan: you're right - my kitchen is darkish because we just lost natural sunlight due to an addition off of the kitchen - it's behind formerly outdoor french doors that used to have southern exposure - I miss my bright kitchen! It's one of the reasons I need to opt for light colored cabinets.

Thanks for the back up on the window dilemma... I think what rhome410 suggested is great... I might just leave the corner w/o a cab and think about a couple of matching shelves down the road (too much for my brain right now). Even if I widen the window by only a couple of inches, it will bring in more light especially if the new window is counter height. Plus the sink won't be too off center and I don't think it would bother me.

I am turning over in my mind the idea to use 18" depth cabs on the island and making it a bit slimmer as you walk into that back door (next to the stove) so it won't be too obtrusive yet still will provide a work area for prep stuff. I just have to figure out a way to widen it at the end so it will accomodate four half back chairs all the time. I can use a saddle type stool along the fridge wall for the times when I have more bodies.

I don't know about everyone else, but I have noticed that when you have company, they tend to congregate around the island and eat standing up anyway - I think it's due to the height.

Although I am so excited for a new kitchen - my floors, cabinets and countertops are awful looking - this is the biggest headache :-) For the money you spend, even when watching every penny, you just don't want to make a mistake that you can't afford to correct.

Thanks so much for all your help!! I'm sure I will be asking many, many more questions of the good posters here.

what if you enlarged the window over to the left and then made the cabinet on the far right hand side (that comes down to the counter) a glass cabinet to mirror what the window grids will look like? almost like a wall of glass?

as one who both widened and brought my window to the counter, i totally vote for that.

i agree, we need a photoshopper to show you what the sink would look like off center.....

also, you could put a pretty potted plant, maybe basil, or other large accessory to the left of the sink and it might even out the window/sink area.....

gglks - when did you widen and bring down your window? That's something else that confuses me. Do I do it now with the old crappy cabs/countertops in place or do I wait for the new cabs and countertops and then do it? I imagine you have to know that your new cabinets are 36" off the ground, the new countertop depth and what your floors are going to be before you can do a good measurement.

What I am thinking is that a garden window, although beautiful, would be huge and expensive even if I followed the size of the old window which is 40 inches wide and 38 inches long excluding trimwork. I'd probably keep the window the same height, but I wouldn't mind widening it to maybe 48 inches or so. I'd use the same granite (or soapstone) as the countertops for the window sill. I need to look at the different types of windows that look nice in a kitchen. I'm so lucky that so many people here post pics of their setup.

Thanks very much!

you would do it during renovations. ours went in before the granite template. that way, they don't have to do any onsite cutting. your contractor should know how thick your granite is and then make the cut for the window based off of your cabinet height plus granite thickness. my contractor had done this before so he knew what to do......i would just make sure that your contractor and the granite fabricators have done it.

Can the french door by the stove be moved? Can it possibly be eliminated? If not, what about putting the fridge by the new French doors and making the original frig/closet wall nothing but 12 inch deep pantry cabinets. That will give you more clearance for island seating on that side.

With an extremely large window, I don't think an off center sink will look bad at all. I think a large island a large island in your space will be great. I have some pics I'll try to get uploaded for you. Give me a couple days.

I am my own contractor :-(

French door by the stove can't be moved, it leads to the 3 season porch and garage.

Thought about moving the fridge to the new french door area, but I cannot recess into that wall at all, unfortunately. I would be absolutely limited to a french door fridge and I am also not convinced that I could open the doors freely since the island is fairly close.

It's funny that you mentioned having 12" cabs against that wall, it's what I originally had then I increased them to 18" which would be perfect except I really need to have the fridge there so I may as well go 24" - unless I can get that fridge wall to yeild more than 4" which I dont think is possible.

I think you guys are right about the sink... it wouldnt be that off-center since I only plan to expand it by 8" or so inches. I can also play around with the size of the new sink.

On the island, I am seriously thinking of decreasing the width and putting in 18" cabs with an 11" overhang. I'll get a bit of room that way and that area is really for emergency seating.

Thanks to all of you for all your help!

americancolleen - If it helps you at all, I went with 18" deep cabs in my island. The size, shape and design of my kitchen is very similar to yours. I just couldn't take more room than that and also have seating at the island. Well, now that it's done I absolutely love the 18" depth. When I open the cabinet doors, I can see everything on the shelves. 9x13" pans can sit the long way, and nothing gets lost in the back like it did when I had my 24" deep island. Just my 2 cents worth. Good luck!

americancolleen- did you notice the picture "mamadadapaige" had in the thread (the link is below) that has the sink off center of the window? Putting in 3 smaller windows of different sizes might give you the room to center the sink. I think the sink looks fine in that picture.

Here is a link that might be useful: Counter height windows

suzatwork - thanks so much! I like the 18" depth too (nothing gets lost as you say) and would definitely go with them along the wall that will house the fridge if fridges came shallower than they do.

I'm so glad you mentioned 18" in conjunction with the island... how wide are your countertops (as in, what is your overhang?) -- thank God for this forum as I would be lost without all the wonderful advice, pictures, ideas.

Also, did you use a 'leg' at the end that you see as you walk in the back door - so it is more 'table looking'?

Thank you phaze... mamadadapaige has a lovely kitchen and kitchen window --- I love that soapstone and cream look, so simple, so timeless. It's actually what I am going for. You're right... the way she set up the sink in relation to the windows looks wonderful... some people are just so dang talented!! I love Buehl's window as well - a large bay or bow with the granite running to the bottom of the window and forming the floor. Unfortunately, a window like that wouldn't look right in my house if you were standing outside.

This is a pic I found of an interesting island 'kitchen table' idea.

{{!gwi}}

Colleen, here is a rendering of my idea. The tile squares are 12x12 so you can get an idea of dimensions. If you make the sink counters 30", then you won't need to recess the frig. If you really don't want a French door frig, you can still shrink the island by 6".

The cabinet behind the door can open sideways. In the rendering, I forgot to change the depth of that cabinet to 2 feet. It's more like 30 deep, but the 4 feet diagonal is accurate once the cabient depth is reduced.

Holy Cow! What a great idea! Thank you so much for taking the time to map all that out, it's very kind of you.

What's funny is that just today I gave into the idea of a CD fridge. I'd been fighting it because I was also going to get a beverage center for the 'hutch' area and you know the money you look at with those two appliances. So, I am going CD French and just going to replace the old fridge in the cellar with a more economical second fridge. No Bev Center.

I wouldnt really have to make the sink side countertop/cabs 30" if I went with a CD fridge. I do actually like the idea of the fridge on the same side as the sink.

Thanks so much again, all of you have given me such food for thought!

With a CD frig, you'll have a more room to get creative with the island. This is just one idea that has 6 real stools and a larger cabinet behind that door.

I didn't use a leg, as I thought it would get in the way. My kitchen is small and the entrance to the room is right there. The final counter is 28"-32" (curved side) x 60". The overhang is 12" deep in the center. The end cabinet on the island (you can see it in the last picture) is 24" deep for the pull-out trash cabinet (I was insistent on getting double bin recycling).

Hopefully these pix will help:

front:

Hi Suzatwork - aren't you a peach! You and I have exactly the same set up... I may have 5 or 6 inches additional width if our back doors are the same size. Thanks so very much! Gives me a great example of how the different sizes - 24" and then the 18" at the end would look.

Funny regarding the double bin recycling bin.. my husband is a real nut about separating out the glass, metal, etc but they are in milk bins in the garage and he takes them to the dump... so I can go 18" where yours is 24". I don't think I want two trash buckets because although I love them in theory, I notice that at my brother's house they're both always half full with trash (not recycleables) because of the kids - they just use both at the same time which would drive me crazy :-) I know for sure that's what would happen in my house.

Pretty cabinets! I love how your kitchen opens up into a room - mine has a wall there and so it's closed in. I'm thinking of building a hutch type of thing in order to get more counterspace - I have 100" to work with.

Is your fridge a counter depth or regular depth?

Thanks again!

Dear Houseful:

I love your designs! I've read elsewhere of 'piano' shaped counters - they really are very pretty and as you show, are shaped to seat a good amount of people.

I think we're going to leave the fridge where it is and close it in between two pantry type cabinets at 24" - getting a CD width fridge. For the longest time I went with the fridge where you placed it - and I do like it at the end of the cabinet run but I saw a picture of someone's kitchen - I think it was mama"something" and at the end of the run next to the dishwasher, she had drawers as the bottom cabinets and a ceiling to counter cabinet on top of that... and I fell in love :-) - I can't do anything like that in another part of the kitchen.

Your 'from above' last kitchen rendition shows me that a bigger window with an off center sink can look nice and I don't necessarily have to balance the cabinets on the sides of the window - thanks a lot for that!! One headache gone!

hi there--i just wanted to say that we are about to put in a bigger window and eliminate the corner cabinet, and have an off-center sink. I really want the light and also the coutner space, as you said. It should be done in a week or so--I will try to post pix! Our stove/sink/window layout is the same as yours.

also, I don't want to muddy the waters...but just wanted to throw in the idea that maybe no one ever uses your kitchen table in the current setup because of the peninsula, which blocks it off and makes it seem far away. The peninsula seems closer to the action and homier. But I think in your new setup you will have plenty of room for a table, if you want to consider going that route. A nice big table would fit on the wall where your hutch setup is going...if necessary you could make the french door one wider door, maybe with sidelights, to increase the usable space there. You could make up the lost storage from the hutch by having an island with more cabs, and maybe even have some hutch type cabs still on the wall behind the table, with a built-in seat in between. (sorry I am not drawing this like all these software whizzes!)

keep in mind that the new island will be more in the middle of things than the current peninsula...and so will the people sitting there. Depending on your cooking style that may or may not be a problem. You could still have a spot for a couple of people to perch at the island, and actually eat at the table (and save your knees!). Just a thought.

You have a great point and one, believe me!, that I've thought about a lot. For one thing, I do require more counter space around the work area and so I do need some sort of island, so that is a definite. It's the size and other things that are in question. The thing is, both my brother and sister have large 'eat around' islands as well as kitchen tables (both have way larger kitchens than I do) and every dang time there's a party or get together, everyone crowds around those islands - even eats standing up rather than sitting at the kitchen table.

I'm a pretty 'contained' cook who cleans as she goes (habit from having a small kitchen) and so as long as no one is sitting at the island in front of the sink or stove, I am OK with people fairly close. In fact, I love cooking and having people sit with me standing and we're sort of the same height instead of them looking up at me and me looking down at them (good thing I'm short).

Thanks for your ideas, everyone has been so helpful and given me a lot of things to work out in my head. I'd rather think about all this stuff now instead of regretting thinking about it after it's too late to change things.

I have an off center sink. It doesn't bother me at all.

{{!gwi}}

{{!gwi}}

You'll need to keep the island narrow by the frig, but something like this might work. Each seat has about 21 inches. What might be better is to put a regular stool on the sink side and tuck the two small stools by the frig.

BTW, my family is the same way. We can have up to 25 people just with my siblings and there kids. They all crowd around the peninsula. Now that I think about it, do you think they might be drawn toward a counter height table? They seem more inviting. I'll have to consider that while I plan my kitchen.

I don't have any decent rendering software at home, so maybe someone can take this suggestion and render it for you, but what about taking that "piano" shaped island a bit further and just having a "regular" island with no overhang for most of the kitchen (more storage since you're losing storage with the bigger window), and then having a 45° offshoot attached counter height "table" that comes out further into the bottom right corner. You wouldn't want it to come out too far to impact your traffic patterns, but with no cabinetry at all underneath it, you could have seating on 3 sides and it would work well for family meals.

live_wire_oak:

you mean like a sideways 'T' shape or straight - and use a couple of legs for support?

I am sort of thinking narrower at the top using 18" cabs (trash and then maybe a 24" long cab beside it) and then a 45" round end. I'd have maybe a 10" overhang at the top (near the stove) and use one leg there for a more open look as you come in the door. I'd use two legs on the round part. I saw the round part supported by a center support, and I didn't really care for that look although it wouldn't get in the way of human legs which would be good. I also like the piano shape that houseful suggested - that really could seat a bunch in a pinch. My husband isn't keen on the piano shape though - but I think it grows on you the more you look at houseful's rendition. Which thank you for, houseful!

Boy, you guys on this forum are great helps. So many things I've learned from others.

Okay, here are some more. The bolded lines in the island represent your cabinets. The round island is not quite perfect, but it's the best I could do in a pinch.

houseful:
You are so nice to take your own time and do all these kitchen config pictures for me. I really appreciate it!
You've been more helpful than the KD at the cabinet place. I sent an e-mail to CP cabs today and got (not a form) letter back from the president. I think I may use one or two of your renditions to explain what I am looking for. I'm trying to keep around 20k for painted cabs but with a beaded inset and with the amount of cabs I need... I don't know it it's possible :-(

americancolleen - sorry I'm delayed in responding to you. We were on vacation. My fridge is normal depth so it does stick out into the room a little. We were not able to recess it because there is a stairwell behind that wall. A counter depth would have been optimal, but we decided not to get a new fridge at this time. (And honestly, I'm not sure if a counter-depth fridge could hold all the food my growing boys eat these days:))

I love the drawings that 'houseful' has put together for you above. Also, the hutch along the left wall will balance everything out nicely. Good luck, and can't wait to see your progress.