Lovely home, and those windows....((sigh))

At first glance, I don't like the idea. Can you post the layout of the kitchen you decided on?

Sometimes architects just like to throw out ideas so you can see how "creative" they are. :)

The only thing I'm thinking with this suggestion is that it makes me think again of making that big window in the old living room space a door to the deck and eliminating the door to the deck in the kitchen thus giving you much more counterspace and storage in the kitchen. You could even put a little bench/cubby system on that wall next to the door. Although I don't love the idea of the new wall in the living room being right next to the fireplace...

Ok, I realize this idea might not be feasible or reasonable, but I thought maybe I'd throw it out anyway. Since your main frustration with the kitchen seems to be its location relative to the family room, would you consider rearranging your main floor? What about if the kitchen was moved where the living room is now, and the living room was moved where the dining room is, and the dining room was moved back to where the kitchen is? If you still eliminate the powder room and open up that pathway between the two sides of the house, you would still have access to the dining room. And your kitchen would be central to your home with direct access to family room, living room, and dining room.

Hmmm. For the function he suggests, I don't see it. I'm guessing you just wouldn't enjoy schlepping everything and everyone around the corner to eat. Or yelling back and forth from the kitchen.

Although your home already looks very attractive and inviting as it is in your pictures, I'm wondering if I might like the intimacy and a more defined identity of the living room space with the new doorway--if it were functional for a good furniture arrangement. Would it be? Would the way you use this space be enhanced by this change?

If you were going to do a new wall, have you considered placing French doors/windows on the outside wall in that transition area? Simply designing it to be a particularly attractive and functional transition between spaces indoor and out? Maybe moving bookcases across the wall to flank a doorway to the living room? The doors would provide a pretty view out, like now of course, but would also allow you--if there were anything you wished to gain by it--to close off a door from the family room or kitchen.

home4all6, I remember your kitchen! Unfortunately, I don't remember enough of the details so I went looking for your previous posts since I think it helps to have previous discussions and ideas part of the current conversation. Here's the discussion I remember from more than a year ago, layout advice--very awkward kitchen location (oops, I see that I deleted my lay-out suggestions, sorry, can't keep 'em all) and your most recent thread, It's the 'Return of the Awkward Kitchen!'

An idea that was suggested over a year ago is worth revisiting: Can the kitchen addition become a two story addition to make room for a master bedroom above the kitchen? I don't think you ever posted an upstairs floor plan but you did post a pic of the back of the house and it looked like - to my layperson's eye - that the roof could be extended over a 2-story addition fairly easily. Did you talk to the architect about this? Tearing into an existing roof to extend it does increase your costs but I would think that overall, the cost would be less than it would be to do 2 individual additions.

And do my eyes deceive me or are you ditching a first floor powder room completely? I think that would be a bad idea.

I know this isn't what you plan to do...but since you asked...I would take out the laundry and bath (behind the family room) and open that space up as the kitchen. That whole space would make a lovely kitchen/eating area/family space. Then leave the living room and dining room 'as is' but think about turning the dining room into a library/homework area...that is only used for holiday dining and special occasions. Then you carry the food across the living room or get something like a tea cart.

Or, turn the living room into the dining room, with a seating area at one end (so it's closer to the kithen) and make the dining area just a library/study area/even a guest space, if necessary. Or, put the TV there and make it the kids' play space. Lots of options.

The current kitchen would make a wonderful multipurpose room, with laundry, crafts, bath, mudroom, maybe even small office area...much like in the Southern Living Idea House. {{gwi:1425087}}From Kitchen plans
{{gwi:1659153}}From Kitchen plans

Whatever you do...I would NOT put a wall in the living room! That's a beautiful space and while you could change the function of the room, I would not change the dimensions or divide it, in any way.

That is a really, really terrible idea. As in, fire him terrible.

He proposes:

1. Significantly deleting value from your house so substantially it could violate your mortgage agreement (yes, your bank has an interest in the number of baths you have, yes they do)

2. Jamming your LR fireplace into a wall

3. Making usable space into a circulation corridor

4. Jamming a banquette, table and chairs into a space that's only 7 feet wide

Wow. Just, wow.

Breezygirl, thanks for the compliment. I do love my windows, but I'd trade them for your finished kitchen :) I can't post the layout that we've decided on, b/c we haven't decided on one. There are just too many variables we must sort out to be able to plan the kitchen layout just yet. And yes, I think he was throwing it out there, with the caveat, "well, we'll have to block it all out on paper to see if it will work...and if NOT, we can just do a small bumpout addition"...which I know would be lovely, and my ideal, but if we want to get everything we want in our small budget, we have to see where to get the most bang for our buck.

aokat, I agree, I agree. I do think we could put that space to use as a beautiful, bookshelf-lined hallway with lovely french doors to the outside. I also think we could do a half "wall," made from shelves, to define the new, smaller living room space, rather than a full wall, which will be putting our grand fireplace in a corner. All of this, though, doesn't seem to have any impact on my kitchen, well, aside from the deck access being moved from the kitchen wall, thus allowing for continuous storage options instead. ANd thank you for your comments. I love your kitchen--it's in THE inspirations file :)

pricklypearcactus, thanks you for your reconfiguring suggestions. You are certainly not the first to suggest such changes as these, but I have a strong feeling that I need my kitchen near our driveway, for accessibility. Right? But it something to think about, again. I am opposed to moving the kitchen to my family room, that is just tooo far from the driveway...but the LR isn't quite as far....Is it strange to have a kitchen in the front of the house? In an old house, at least?? I don't want to turn it into the "What WERE they thinking?" house.

rosie, I think you have summed up my exact thoughts. I think it could be lovely, and I could do something cool with that space. And our current LR is more a big furnished hallway between the FR, the kitchen, and the front foyer/stairway access. It is not an intimate space.

And all of this seems to suggest that although there may be OTHER benefits to this particular change, it doesn't seem to be lending any more space to my kitchen.

Lisa_a, yes, yes, that's STILL me, and my obsession continues. I promise that we will move forward on this soon, but we have much to decide. And thank you for reminding me of that idea, of a TWO-story addition!! I had forgotten, and not one of the architects ever mentioned that!
Here is our current 2nd floor plan (very rough, done by me...)

We kind of got it into our heads that there was no way to turn that bedroom area over the kitchen into a master (I even made a lame-o attempt) but it was still all just tiny spaces. All three architects said there was no way to squeeze that out of the space we have, none. And I agreed. So then we moved on to adding the master "suite" over the family room, thus connecting to our current master and using space that already existed and building on top of it.

And adding on over the family room and adding on to the kitchen just gets tooooo out of control, budget-wise.

Is adding a 2-story addition putting us in that same out-of-control realm? Or is it more budget-friendly? How big would be be talking? Because really, couldn't we go backward or to the side of the kitchen? Filling in the space between the kitchen and the family room, where the deck is currently?

Lavender, I do love your creative ideas, I am just hung up on having the kitchen so far from the driveway, and grocery shlepping, etc. It doesn't make sense in my brain to make that swap make sense in my real life.

marcolo, he is not hired, nor will he be. we didn't like him much, and he was very vague about everything he talked about. But his ideas made me think...his parting gift, I suppose.

We are deleting the powder room, unless we can find a new space for it, but we have another full bath already on this level, and we will be adding one more full bath, as part of the master suite, so it will be a 4 BR, 3 bath home, as opposed to 2.5 baths it has now. That's not a value-decrease. And he did want us to relocate the powder room, he just wasn't sure where yet. And truthfully, that space at the top of my living room isn't usable space right now...it's just toy and clutter-collecting space. With the elimination of the powder room, the walkway will become the top of the room, and the chairs can be moved closer to the center of the room, adding to the intimacy, without the need of the suggested wall.

Thanks for all the thoughtful and insightful responses...back to the drawing board...

Here are a few more photos:
that same LR window wall

The back of the house:

The back view of kitchen (sliding doors), balcony above, and other window locations, etc.

Thanks!

Can you post a picture, of the front of the house? I've seen the back, but I'd like to see what's in front of the laundry/bath area, by the family room. Maybe you could add a door there...and bring groceries in that way.

I know this has been a real struggle, but unless you add to the kitchen (and I know you don't want to lose the deck) or change the function of at least one of the other spaces...I don't see how you can get everything you want, out of the space.

Not trying to being negative, I'm just not seeing any other possilibities. Maybe someone else will. Did any of the three architects come up with a better idea than dividing your living room? I'm about as impressed as Marcolo, on that one :(

Ok, so I'm not sure if this has already been suggested... but going on the earlier post about doing a two story addition, how about adding on to the house where the deck is? Given your entry point from driveway/garage, you could make your current kitchen into a mudroom and breakfast room which opens to the new kitchen addition. That way your kitchen would be centrally located and open to the family room. You could keep the powder room where it was in this plan (maybe rearranged depending on flow of new space). If you did this you may want to make your formal living room your dining room and your dining room either the formal living room or even a home office. If it's a two story addition you can either have 5 bedrooms with the new master suite over the kitchen or open up the small bedroom above the current formal living room and have a sitting area off of the new master. I realize this is all major $$ but it would be all one addition and I think *could* be your dream solution. It would make such a great flow on your first floor and would give you added rooms - mudroom, breakfast room, 5th bedroom... sorry if this is an idea which is much more than you are looking for, but just couldn't help but dream it up for you!! :)

I don't care for the truncated living room.

The plan does give you a much more graceful, less convoluted arrival to the kitchen but it ruins the living room.

You could achieve the same by getting rid of the powder room and aligning the doorways but not adding the wall, but I am not sure what that accomplishes for the rest of the downstairs. Closing the LR off gives you 7 feet which is too wide for a hall and too narrow for anything else.

oops, wrong photo posted last:

And yes, I should I post in the landscaping forum for some HELP there as well...pretty pathetic, huh?

And here is the front, although not the best angle for seeing in front of the laundry/bath in the addition. But you can see the driveway door, which is our primary in/out, and how the house sits on top of the driveway. And yes, I know, the landscaping is pathetic...one project at a time!

Yes, I accept that we must do some adding on somewhere, now it is a matter of figuring out where and why.

Lavender, as you know, it's a work in progress, and I don't want to leave any stone unturned. This all reminds me of this game my children play, called "Rush Hour" where you have to move these little platic cars and trucks around to clear aspace for the red car to get out. That's how I feel. Right now I am furiously moving those cars and trucks back and forth and back and forth and back and forth...but I am getting closer to getting that darn car out!

Here is a link that might be useful: Rush Hour game

For me, it always feels like 'solitaire backwards' when you keep thinking...if I could move this card here and this one here and this one here...all I need is a red five!

I forgot how your side door just opens right out, into the driveway.

While I don't know if this is feasible, I would see if you could put the basement stairs, under the main staircase (even if you have to lose the powder room) and open up the kitchen to the dining room. That would give you all the space you need and you can use an island or peninsula to give a little separation to the space.

Then, I'd put your access on the back of the kitchen (or off the deck, if you want to keep the kitchen windows) but back would be closer to the driveway. That would be so much more gracious (and safe) than that little door that puts you right out into the driveway...especially as the kids get older and they start driving!

home4all6, after seeing your 2nd floor lay-out, I think you can change that back bedroom into a master bedroom suite. That requires one foundation and one roof, not one foundation and 2 roofs (kitchen addition and adding master bedroom over the family room). I think that would be the cheaper way to get what you want - but I'm not an architect or contractor so you should ask about this. Frankly, I'm surprised none of the architects suggested a two-story addition.

You will likely need to redo the roof over the back bedroom to enclose the balcony and to have the master extend the full width of the kitchen addition. From your photos, the back bedroom's roof peak looks lower than the peak across the width of your home so likely the new roof will tie in higher and possibly at another point of the existing roof. Might be a good idea to climb into the attic and look at the roof structure to see what this might involve.

As you continue to interview architects maybe the question to ask is: what is the most economical way to create a larger kitchen with a better connection to the downstairs, particularly the family room, and a master bedroom suite?

Yes, you do have a full bathroom on the main level but it is a hike from all rooms except the family room. I think it would be a good idea to see if you can keep a small powder room more centrally located.

Whether you're ok with having a kitchen farther from a driveway is really a personal decision. I don't believe there is a right or wrong. Looks like your garage is detached. Is there a door into the back yard? Do you usually park in the garage and then carry them down the driveway to the door? Or are you usually parked in the driveway right by the door?

In my house, the garage is a distance from the kitchen. I carry my groceries through the laundry/mud room, on through a small section of my family room, up three stairs, and into the kitchen. While I would enjoy a shorter distance, it really isn't a big deal. The only problem I have is when the pocket door to the laundry/mud room is closed and I have to open it while carrying groceries only to almost trip over my dog laying by the pocket door waiting for me to greet her.

Again I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having a kitchen at the front of a house, especially in an older home. But if it bothers you, that's a problem. The biggest problem I see is the fireplace. You would either no longer have that beautiful fireplace in your living room, or would have to have it moved or another one added. You could keep it in the kitchen or maybe (not my area of expertise) flip it to have the fireplace in the family room.

But I do agree with the general assessment that the architect's suggestion to severely truncate the living room and try to squish a table into the space is not ideal. I really do not see much of a gain, and a few losses, with changes I imagine will end up costing quite a bit.

Yes, I really, really think a 2-story addition, thus one foundation, and one roof, might just solve all of our problems. I'm just not feeling the flip-flopping of rooms. I guess for my personality and my home, we're just traditionalists at heart.

If we can add on to the kitchen and then do a master suite above, and open up the kitchen;s connection with the rest of the home, by removing the powder room, it'll be much better. I will look at changing the side door entryway, as it is pretty awful now, and also at finding mudroom space somewhere. We have a huge unfinshed room UNDER the kitchen that I've got into my head to convert to a mudroom, if possible, thus using our space we have. It's not perfect, bu tit is virtually unused space, so I really want to find a way to make the most of it.

We had an architect we really liked, so I think we will use him to flesh this out. But I think we need to find a contractor too, to get an idea of costs involved. Because that is a huge factor, obviously. I have kept the valuable advice from my previous posts, and I so appreciate the thoughtfulness of all of you in this community. I can't wait to sort all of THIS out, and we get to work on my kitchen space for REAL!!

Depending on where you add on, you can try to capture some space in the current kitchen for a mudroom right off the stairs as that was one of the reasons I suggested what I did above (mudroom was a top priority for me in my reno!) I can understand about the flip-flopping of rooms - in my post above you could leave formal/dining where they are... it would just make for a longer stretch to the dining room. Good luck and definitely keep us posted!! You and I think very much alike as I needed to go through so many iterations of plans, etc to find the best solution. I kept at it thinking there *had* to be a better way to get what we wanted and would be more a more efficient use of resources. I hope the architect you like is able to work out the best plan!

aokat, where did you end up putting a mudroom? Close to your kitchen? And how tall are your ceilings? I really want to do mine the same way...have lots of photos saved, and yours look so great! And all the lights, too--just great choices! I also plan on reaching out to your cabinet builder...I'm hoping to use a midwest builder, as I am in Illinois.

I like your idea of using basement space for a mudroom. It may not be as convenient as having a mudroom on the main level but as you wrote, it makes use of the space you have.

Do you watch "Sarah's House" on HGTV? In one of the series, she bought a 3 story Victorian. After she excavated the basement (dropped the floor by 2 feet, wow, what a project), she created a mudroom - a very nice, large mudroom - in the basement, just at the bottom of the stairs. Unfortunately, I can't find a full pic of the space, only a partial (see link). Maybe you can find the episode on line.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sarah's House, laundry/mud room

I believe in one of those "Sarah's House" episodes from that season, Sarah also talked about how she'd always prefer to capture existing space (in that case by digging out a basement) rather than putting in an addition. She felt that additions would often simply duplicate the already available space and would cost a lot more. Just another thing to think about when you're contemplating an addition.

yes, I saw those episodes! I LOVE her show, and I think she's absolutely right--we DO have a lot of space in our home, which is why I started this post with the silly idea :) I just want to make the MOST of my space. Yes, the entire space under the kitchen is wide open and can really look beautiful as a mudroom--with tons of storage. I just have to train my kids to go DOWN, then come UP when they arrive home. I am confident we can do it :)

The two biggest problem with your house is the family room add-on someone did years ago and your side entrance that can't be moved. Logically, the family room needed to go where the deck is now to work with the original house. Unfortunately this is what you inherited.

You could use the current LR/FR as FR/kitchen and current Kitchen as the LR. Even though the kitchen is in the front of the house, this is the most logical way of using the house. This creates a problem with your side entrance, however. Unless you close off the side entrance, you can't get around that problem. Because of the driveway, that is the most logical place for the side entrance and I don't think you want to close off that entrance.... You can play around by creating a path from the drive way to the back of the house entrance, ie stepping up to the deck. This is less than an ideal solution...

I recently looked at a house with similar family room add on which made the kitchen work very poorly with the FR. We passed on the house (for that and other reasons...)

You also have a laundry room in a terrible place because it is so far from the kitchen and the stairs where the dirty clothes come and go. Again, back to the poor add-on..

Sometimes, there are so many short comings to the house that it cannot be fixed with a reasonable amount of money. It maybe better to move in those situations or live with the shortcomings. Only you know....

I am not fond of your floor plan and I don't see an easy way of fixing it. The problem with architects is that they don't tell you to not to remodel but to move instead. They think all problems can be solved by spending someone else's money, yours. The fact that you talked to 3 architects and there are no easy solution tells me that there are no easy answers to the issues that you are not happy with..... (FR too far from kitchen)

My cheap solution (do no remodel) would be to use the current DR as the family room. Use the currently LR with fireplace as a large DR. The current FR will become the LR, not often used room. This will be odd because the laundry room is there. You can close the doors when you have guests.

At least the daily living will be slightly more comfortable. Try it by rearranging the furniture and the TV. (my guess is that the FR has the TV)

First off I completely empathize since I too am trying to get a master suite and a more open kitchen without doing 2 additions! And I too have been going around in design circles for a year.

I am terrible at design but my instinct is to agree with aokat and look at adding in the middle where the deck is. Make that your expanded kitchen/dining space below and connect it with the family room. Then above use the balcony, existing bedroom to right of stairs and the addition to make the master suite.
Do you have enough room in back to then rebuild the deck space?

I have a kitchen in the front of the house and hate it. Don't do that. Keep your pretty backyard view and proximity to the outdoor entertaining space. But my garage is far from the kitchen and that is really not a big deal.

Good luck - look forward to being inspired by what you come up with.

I would not add walls to the living room as that would lose some of the view and air/light circulation.
One thing that would be big to me is to find another place to have a second toilet on the main floor. We are a family of 4 and have 2 baths on our main level (a ranch, so our bedrooms are on that level as well). We find that we often have a little wait because no one wants to bother to go downstairs to use the 3rd bathroom. I'd try to fit it into the existing laundry room. You can go with full size stackables in order to make enough room for it, if it won't fit easily. Although, with all the bedrooms upstairs, you may want to move the laundry up while you are changing things upstairs. This way laundry would never leave that floor. Ours moved to our main level and our master bed has become the laundry folding zone since it is a great place to watch tv while folding clothes. Putting them away all on the same level is also a treat. With 4 kids, I can only imagine how much more laundry you have to do now and when they get even bigger/busier.

You already have a slight roof overhang above the LR window. Why not extend that roof line out where it hits the edge of the door from the kitchen and connect across the deck to create a hallway between the FR and kitchen? The arched bookshelves could be opened for light (if this is a problem in the LR) and could have glass shelves for display along with the large picture window. The hallway could have the same shape windows on the outer wall to not lose the view. I'm just tossing out an idea--I have no idea of the cost of a 'little' addition. I would hate for you to lose the powder room location since it services one side of the downstairs...

don't give up a half bath...rotate it and move it "up into space closer to kitchen table or "over" near where door to dining room from kitchen currently is.The wall between dining room and kitchen may need some reconfiguration in the top right part of dining room// change the opening to dining room from kitchen, but the dining room looks large enough to relocate the half bath in the lower part of kitchen and you get that wide open flow between kitchen and family room-I think that's the right goal.Keep thinking-I think there's a way to do this.[Could you handle the 15 and a half foot length of dining room changing to 13 ft or so?]

Dear Home4all6, What a beautiful home and what a huge design challenge.

Since you have a big family with a range of ages, I have these practical suggestion which will be a relatively low-cost fix:

1. Keep your kitchen in the existing spot and expand it however you wish to make your dream kitchen, putting in an island (I looked at some of the sketches in your photobucket). Expand your kitchen as needed to make a dream kitchen for your family of 6.

2. Remove the bathroom near the kitchen as you have planned. It does create a horrible bottleneck.

3. Turn your existing dining room into a lovely, cozy family den/playroom. Think about the activities that your kids are most likely to do in the family room (play? watch TV?). Since it isn't a big room, and your two youngest need the most supervision, maybe think about that room most catering to their needs. The room is right next to the kitchen and will be as ideal as you are likely to get for that close connection. As your children get older this could become a cozy den or office space for the adults. Even now, you could put a armoire/desk/computer space here for the older kids. The nice thing about making this room the everyday living and play space for your kids is that the mess and chaos can be isolated from the rest of the house and the door can be shut when company comes.

4. Turn your existing living room into a large, gracious dining room. With a family of six, you will be able to use the space. And a dining room is an ideal place for a fireplace! Since you will have some extra room in the dining room, it will be a great place for that family piano or large storage hutch. The existing big window that looks out to the back yard could be replaced by french doors for a great flow during diner parties from the back deck to dining room.

5. Your existing family room then becomes the livingroom/family room. Now that some of the playroom activities for the little ones are removed to the little den/playroom next to the kitchen, this room can "grow up" a little bit and really function as a hybrid family room/living room. Put in lots of cozy seating so that the whole family can watch a movie together. But dress it up enough so that you can entertain adult friends.

Just a few ideas.

kaismom, you know the funny thing about our current family room? I am 90% certain it was added on as a master "suite" back in 1960! The large doorway between the LR and FR has markings on it that it used to have doors, and there was a full, walk-in closet, with built in drawers and hanging bars, and even a built-in ironing board. And then there was a full bath. All on the main floor. And it was full-on Brady Bunch, too, so when we moved in 5 years ago, we saw it as a huge, first floor family room space (which over the years it been opened up to the LR to become, it seems.) We have spent years updating it to fit in with the age and style of the rest of the home. And we changed that closet full of drawers into a conveniently located laundry room, on the first floor rather than the basement.

I LOVE having my laundry room there--I can pop in loads all day, every day, without trekking up stairs or down. And I can fold laundry near my kids, near the tv, so at night I can catch up on some shows while I sort.

IT's actually perfect for us.

As is this house, actually. I really love it, despite it's shortcomings. WE are in a historic community, with magnificently restored old homes that were, and some still are, worth millions. We moved from the far-reaches of town, and bought right in downtown, which was pricey, but we were able to do it because of the houses shortcomings. And now, we are 1 block form the library, 2 blocks from school, 3 blocks from starbucks, and 4 blocks from the commuter train. I rarely drive anywhere, and believe it or not, our house hasn't lost value since we bought it 5 years ago. So I'd say it was a super buy! And we still love it, and feel like we can stay here for the duration.

I even have to say that my feeling son the FR/kitchen location have really evolved. It's been hard with my little kids and babies to have my kitchen so removed from the family space, when I needed to be WITH them more, but now they are already more independent, and I don't mind having some time in the kitchen, away from the CHAOS of my life, to bake or read. So, I am kind of ok with it.

But I do appreciate your input, Kaismom. But since this is our house, and we know that we couldn't afford much more near us, this is it for us! We are going to figure it out!

domino, I am sorry to hear you in the same boat, but excited for both of us to figure it all out! I appreciate all that you've been going through. And I like your suggestions--it's definitely the way I'm leaning.

I will do some searching for your posts to see if I can learn anything from you. And I look forward to following your progress, too!

Wow.
So many suggestions.

I was looking at your 2nd story layout.
I was overwhelmed by all those doors in one place!

Just throwing this out there:
Did you know you gain 9 sq feet for every door you replace with a pocket door?

and you've got wayyyyyy too many doors for my taste!
But then, I have 15 pocket doors.

BTW. Your home is beautiful, inside and out.

dianalo, yes, the wall idea is out, it was torn down almost as quickly as it was put up :)
I do appreciate the idea of trying to keep another bath on this floor, and I haven't given up on it. I just know I don't want it where it currently sits. I will try to squeeze one in somewhere, depending on what we figure out. What I will not do, though, is put it in my current laundry room, b/c that is actually adjacent to the current full bath, and only accessible through the family room. Although we could put labels on them, and have a Men's and a Women's Room (with only 2 girls and 4 boys in our family--this might be a good idea!) And I love my family room laundry right where it is, and we use it how you describe using your master bed--we use our sectional in the family room. I fear if I moved it upstairs, with the bedrooms, I'd be running up there many times a day to change loads, where as now I can do it anytime, pop in and out easily. and then there is just one nightly delivery of clean clothes to the bedrooms. It works for us :)

Socalsister, that is an idea we have been floating for years. In the summer, we use the deck as a hallway between the 2 spaces, with both sliders open, and I love it!! Like you, I'm just not sure if the cost makes sense, or if we may as well make it a bigger addition, and part of the kitchen, and actually make it a meaningful room. We'll see what the costs are...

herbflavor, I am not giving up on it, it's just not my main priority. I think if I can fit it in, and it doesn't break the bank we;ll do it. But no matter how small, it'll involve major plumbing issues, which are costly.

francoise47, thank you for your kind words and thoughtful ideas. I really like them, especially the den/play area in the dining room, b/c it does completely close-off already, with french doors and a swinging door. And I do close it off when LEGO central is going on in there, as they are messy and dangerous for little ones. I will continue to consider such a swap as I plan.

And we do have a large, finished playroom/rec room in the basement, that is truly toy central. Toys migrate their way up here, but they really have a home in the basement anyway. But I don't think I mentioned that space anywhere here. It does exist. The only drawback is we we have gotten water down there 2 times in our 5 years here. Just a little, but enough to be a PAIN. So it'll always be a kid's world that, if water-logged, won't break the bank.

CEFreeman, thank you for the kind words! We do love our home. And we love pocket doors--I will never use anything else! WE have 3 right now, and in all my plans, they figure prominently! What I really love are the old pocket doors you used to find between formal LR and DR spaces, among others. I really want THOSE somewhere. And then I saw this pic yesterday on Houzz:

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[modern living room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-living-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_718~s_2105) by amsterdam media and blogs Iris
If we do indeed an on in our current deck space, wouldn't this be lovely as the backside of wall where that picture window sits? Double pocket doors to separate the spaces when needs, and bookshelves on the "dinette" side, so it almost has a library/sitting area treatment when not used for dining, and connects it to the family room and the kitchen with logic and purpose.

We ended up with our mudroom off our kitchen right off the stairs leading down to our garage (our garage is basement level). Our basement is currently unfinished but I'd like to use a closet down there once it's finished for the things that I don't want trekked up the stairs - muddy boots, sports gear (when they're older - right now I have a 4.5 year old, 3 yr old, and 1 yr old), etc.

Our kitchen has 8 foot ceilings. We had wanted 9 foot (the old part of the house has a mix of 8 and 9 foot ceilings) but given the beam needed to open up the space and the roof line we had to go with 8. I thought I'd be upset about it but I honestly never think about it.

Thanks so much for your comments on my kitchen! It may seem so far off, but you will get there and your space will be amazing! Please let me know if you need any more info on our cabinet maker once you're at that point.

I find those double pocket doors all the TIME at the reuse center.
I think that pic would make a great addition to your configuration.

What's to stop you from building where the deck is, as others have suggested, and adding a new deck with new, gorgeous doors?

Just dreaming for you!

home4all6
I am the poster child of having spent way too much on a house with its shortcomings. Sometimes I wish I had not embarked on this road because I have spent way more on my house than what most people can even fathom. All in all, there are things about my house that I LOVE and things about my house that I wish were differently. The reality is that the budget is a huge factor in my (any everyone's) decision. I can't have everything I want at a budget that I can afford. So I have accepted the shortcomings of the house because there are plenty about it that I love. You have to do your own equation of that balance.

I know what you are talking about; the location where homes are expensive because it is in the city. I am in that exact situation. People that live in the suburbs have very different perspective about their homes...

Regarding FR/Kitchen: My kids are older and it works very well that there is some separation between FR/K. Your kids are little only for a short period of time.

Personally, I would get rid of the 1/2 bath and open up the kitchen. Even though the bath is a bit farther away, I think the advantage of having an opened up kitchen is more than the loss of 1/2 bath. If you are creative, there may be just enough room for a minute powder room under the stairs if you absolutely need it.

I am okay with the idea of closing the LR because it gives you a quiet room. But you have that with the DR. So either option will work.

When I think about houses, I don't think about DR/LR per se. Because they can be interchanged so easily. What I think about are the rooms with outdoor access (ie your FR and kitchen), rooms that are quiet and rooms that are noisy. You need to make sure your house has a good balance of those rooms and where they are located works within the context of how your family will live.

Since you already have a large opening from the LR to th deck, I would probably change that to French doors. Maybe you already said that.

Over time, your basement will become your kids play/family room. My kids are always in the basement. Mostly because we have pushed all electronics/TV/media to the basement. I refuse to have the sound invade the quiet spaces. The boys tend to lean toward gaming heavily over time. You got 3 boys. I had best intentions but eventually have gone over to the dark side of the gaming.

We have computer work areas for homework near the kitchen. I think this is a must until they can be absolutely trusted to be on the computer/internet on their own. Most families have moved on to laptops. So you probably need to make sure ther are seating areas in the kithchen where the kids will have their laptops.

Since you have 4 kids, you need to think of a good space for your household command work area. All your calendars and important stuff will be in the computer. I found ipad and i-phones to be too small to effectively work on them. Again, if you are on your laptop, where will you sit?

I have not see you address these issues with the drawings. I find that I need the computer visible from the kitchen while I am making dinner.

Mudroom: it looks like they will go to the basement.

2 story addition: I don't know what your budget is but that maybe very expensive. If the old addition does not have the footings/foundation to support the second story, you may have to tear down the old addition and rebuild entirely. Either way, you still have the issue of the side entrance. Because of the side entrance, the only thing that room can become is the kitchen or the mudroom. If you turn that into a mudroom, you got a very exnpensive mudroom. Just my perspective....

You open up alot of possibilities if you get rid of the side entrance, tuck the stairs to the basement under the second story stairs. I would play around with that idea on the paper. Paper remodel is cheap.

Home4all6- Are you sure you want to put your mudroom, in the basement? I believe you said how nice it was to have the laundry on the main floor...what about the mudroom? As much as you don't want to haul groceries through the house (maybe once or twice a week?) I would NOT want to go downstairs, take off my coat and climb back up a flight of stairs, every time I came in from outside, in the fall/winter/early spring.

I'd think long and hard before adding on. You have lots of space and I think you can work with what you have, if you get creative. There are so many options, including Francoise's ideas about the current living and dining rooms, which I think are excellent.

Upstairs, if possible, maybe put a small master bath/closet, where you have the balcony space...if the kitchen will support the weight. You might have to change the corner windows, if you need more support for the upstairs, so it's smart to do both at once. If you live in an area with snow...are you having any trouble with that flat balcony space? That would be a problem, in our area.

I agree entirely with keeping the house you love and working sensitively with it to make it even better--without extremely expensive and radical changes whose costs may also include sacrifice of spaces and functions that were once special to you. Such as the synergy between your indoor spaces and your very well used porch.

Hello GW friends,
I have spent a bit of time this weekend imagining whether or not a 2-story addition where our current deck would indeed get us everything we want and still make sense in our home. I think it could. I'm imaging making the picture window in the LR into pocket doors, and the new space, where our current deck is, would become the space for a table with a built-in bench under the windows to the backyard. It would bridge the gap between the FR and the kitchen, and give us a bit more kitchen to work with.

So, here is my first attempt. You'll notice the new, rear entry (closer to our garage) and mudroom, relocated powder room, and eating area between kitchen and family room.

How does it look? I'm picturing an island sort of like breezygirl's beauty :)

Your thoughts are so appreciated!

Dear home4all6,

Interesting new idea! Love the mudroom addition.

What if you pushed the living room wall with the pocket door
(currently the picture window to the backyard)
all the way bath so that it was flush with the wall
for your new half back (hope this makes sense)?

This would make your living room smaller.
But it would create even more flow to the family room.

It would give you space for a much larger island
(which would probably be nice with your big family)
and a bit more room to move around the angled back doors
to the new deck area.

You would then probably have to eliminate the door/opening to next to the fireplace between the living room and family room.

I understand why you put the half bath where you put it;
but, opening into the kitchen isn't ideal.
Since you are doing a massive amount of reno anyway,
why not find a way to tuck the half bath into the mudroom
area?

If you are playing and moving the back entry, you need to move the stairs to the basement from where they are now to tuck under the second-story stairs. This is THE MOST space efficient arrangements for 2 sets of stairs. This will also make your mudroom bigger. The powder room can go in the back of the mudroom where the stairs to the basement is now.

You need to make that acute angle by the family room > or = to 90 degrees.

Anne

I agree with kaismom - move the basement stairs to go under the 2nd floor stairs and put the powder room where the basements stairs are. This preserves the hallway entry into the kitchen, which is part of the charm of your center hall home.

The next thing I'd do is remove the living room wall, making it open to the kitchen - this gives you room to make a larger island - and turn the family room into the master bedroom suite you suspect it was originally (move the laundry room upstairs, taking over one of the small bedrooms, keep the entry into the kitchen but close off the living room doorway). This gets you the connection with the other rooms you crave and a master bedroom suite this house needs at a relatively small cost.

As you wrote above, you have space in the basement to create a family room/rec room so having 2 living/family rooms on the main level is a bit of overkill. IMO, of course. ;-)

I guess I should have mentioned that if you add a toilet to the laundry room, that you would need to add a doorway to the full bathroom to access it from the other side as well.
Pocket doors would help if you did that.

francoise47, thanks! I do like your idea, but I'm afraid to start messing with walls where they are, and the mess and cost of the plaster, etc. Plus it seems like it is supporting the second floor walls, too, and would moving it affect that? If we just add on behind, that stuff won't necessarily be impacted. But I do agree it would make the flow better, and give me more room on the kitchen side, which I could use. It's amazing how you *think* you are adding on so much space, but it still doesn't come close to being a huge kitchen ;)

As for the powder room, moving it over and tucking it under the stairs allows us to use the same plumbing location that the current powder room uses, thus a big cost savings. I don't like the idea of it opening toward the LR or the DR, so the kitchen is the best option. Plus, with the door open, you will only see the sink, not the WC, so it doesn't seem so bad?

kaismom and lisa_a, I am not considering moving the stairs right now. It would be a huge project, and would put the basement stairs right in the middle of the large finished room we have down in the basement, thus rendering that room useless. And as it is, it's just a large space for toys, as well as wii for the kids. Our basement gets water--all of us around here do, it's absolutely inevitable! We've had 2 so-called 500-year floods in the 5 years we've lived here. Ha! We don't flood, but we get a few inches of water, and it's a nuisance. We learned in our old house that we can't use a basement as a family room in this town, or you will be paying to redo it every few years.

I am willing to remove the powder room completely, but it seems to me that space would just be dead space?

I have a picture of an entryway that isn't open to the back, but closed off. Then traffic just goes into the LR or the DR. I think it's quite lovely:

And I made a few tweaks to the floorplan, to correct some problems I left there unintentionally. There isn't really a weird angle in the FR/kitchen connection if we remove the current FR wall. And the current basement stairs don't go into the room as far I had pasted them in. They stop at the small closet wall. They are not up to code, but the architect said if we don't mess with them in any way, they can remain as they are. So there is 12.5" feet from the new Back door to the beginning of the basement stairs.

This is soooo hard--I just don't know how you guys do this sort of thing! And I'm reading up, to prepare for the actual building process, and, well, YIKES! This is scary stuff. So much to figure out, prepare for and watch out for! So glad I have GW!

I have not read all the posts here so maybe someone has already suggested this, but why not make the living room your kitchen and casual dining area and the original kitchen into a master bedroom or hobby room or library etc or maybe a guest bedroom? That puts your kitchen close to family room, across from Dining room and still close to the deck.

I like the idea of using the deck for the expansion and make another entry into the family room. It would be nice to have French doors from the living room, into the kitchen, too. I think these were all suggested in your earlier posts, but some of the plans are gone.

Then (as Lisa suggested) when the kids get old enough to be upstairs by themselves, move back down to the family room and make it your master suite. I like Lisa's idea of putting a laundry area up there, too. I would put one of the kids in your room and make the biggest upstairs room, their play room. When they get old enough for you to be on the main floor, they will want to be in their own 'space' too. It would eliminate the basement issues with water and maybe use that for container storage...water proof container storage :)

If you move the kids' laundry upstairs, you could keep a stackable washer dryer, in the master closet...so you don't have to go upstairs to do your laundry and you'd have plenty of space for closet, bathroom, bedroom and a seating area, by the deck. Very nice!

One other thing...I'm not sure why you need two dining tables, especially as the kids get older. Decide which you like better (kitchen table or dining table) and maybe turn the other area into a comfy seating space, with a TV. Or, make the living room the family room and have your private space, in the master bedroom sitting area.

When and if you decide to do this, would be up to you, but I think it makes more sense than adding more space and duplicating more functions. Just another idea...

Oh, and I agree with what Anne said about changing the angle in the family room. I would square off that room, add the deck to the kitchen space and maybe add a few feet to the entire back of the kitchen. Why have an island that seats two, when you have four kids?

So, add the kitchen space, make the new entry into the (now squared off) family room/maybe future master suite...and then add a new deck to the back of the house. I'd also think about taking out the bay window and adding a slider, for access to the new deck...maybe with a hot tub? That family room would make a VERY nice master suite :)

I agree with kaismom - move the basement stairs to go under the 2nd floor stairs and put the powder room where the basements stairs are. This preserves the hallway entry into the kitchen, which is part of the charm of your center hall home.

The next thing I'd do is remove the living room wall, making it open to the kitchen - this gives you room to make a larger island - and turn the family room into the master bedroom suite you suspect it was originally (move the laundry room upstairs, taking over one of the small bedrooms, keep the entry into the kitchen but close off the living room doorway). This gets you the connection with the other rooms you crave and a master bedroom suite this house needs at a relatively small cost.

As you wrote above, you have space in the basement to create a family room/rec room so having 2 living/family rooms on the main level is a bit of overkill. IMO, of course. ;-)

Home- I think you're fine to close off the hall door to the kitchen. You're not bringing in groceries that way, so it would be nicer to enter the living room or dining room and then go into the kitchen. You have the access from the driveway and the deck/backyard.

Nice inspiration picture :)

There's a lot of reading in this thread, and I tried to get through it all. But please pardon me if I missed something and am repeating here or offering a suggestion already shot down.

Are you familiar with Sarah Suzanka's books? NOt-so-big house concept? One of the points she makes is that people keep adding on to houses thinking that more space will solve the problem they're having, when it isn't the lack of space that's the issue, but the way the space is used. 10 years or so ago, I took that to heart when I wanted to add a master suite and a family room. After a lot of soul searching, I realized that we weren't using the space we had effectively. We had a living room that was almost always empty. And that when folks were in it, I was almost always far off in the kitchen.

You say you're a traditionalist, so this may not work for you, but I urge you to give it some hard thought. Do you live the kind of lifestyle that requires a large formal living room? Someplace where you entertain adults regularly or where if someone were to come by the house for a meeting...insurance discussion, lawyer, etc....you would not want them to see your family room? Either because it's a mess or because you're just a more formal person? If so, stop reading. But if not, consider this:

Convert your current living room into the family room and open it up to the kitchen by taking out the awkward powder room. You'll be near the kids and you'll have a large comfortable space for the whole famiy to hang out. If you have a play room downstairs (spend some of the money you'll save by not needing a new foundation to do really good waterproofing job...proper drainage and grading, sump pump, etc.) That can be where the truly noisy, rough stuff goes on.

Then close off the current family room and turn it into a quiet, adult haven. Make it a library/living room...someplace you and hubby can go for peace and quiet or an older child (and they will get older) can quietly do homework. Put your masterbedroom suite, as planned over the top and save yourself the foundation costs. You can also use the room, if necessary as an emergency guest room with some creative furniture (a murphy bed? built-in daybed/window seat?) Or you might even think about putting a small private stair case from the adult living room to your bedroom.

I'd try to fit a powder room off the family room or kitchen somewhere...if no where else, carve out part of that laundry room. It isn't optimum, since kids coming from the back yard would track all the way across the family room to get there...but it wouldn't be bad.

And when you design that upstairs master bedroom DO consider sneaking at least a stackable w/d up there. Right now, a first floor laundry is a god send, cause your kids are little and you need to be close by all the time. But by the time the 2 year olds are in school, you'll be able to do the laundry when they're gone. And by the time they're teens, they can do it themselves. And believe me, the only thing better than a first floor laundry room is a laundry on the same floor as the dirty bedlinens and smelly boy socks. No more hauling baskets up and down the stairs.

Of course, the idea of expanding out onto the deck to connect kitchen and family room accomplishes much of the same goals...a separate adult space and an integrated family living space and kitchen. But I don't know if you need to go to that expense, frankly.

FWIW....