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snookums_gw

Darned if I do and darned if I don't

snookums
16 years ago

I've vented about my husband before. He LOATHES the idea of putting out an effort for decorating (but later gloats about it when its done). MONTHS ago I bought stain in order to restain our coffee table, end table, and storage bench the same shade as the pricey Custom Shoppe entertainment center and bookcase we have. He helped me pick out the stain.

To him, decorating my home is the worst absolute possible thing I could do in the world. It's wasteful. It's personal against him, according to him - I've even been accused of trying to kill him when I asked to stop by Home Goods one day. I could probably have an affair and he'd get over that, but the fight we had before we ordered our shutters, for example, nearly divorced us.

And the DIY kitchen project? Took 6 months and don't even go there. You see what I'm dealing with.

Last weekend, I asked the kids to empty the bench so I could move it into the garage. Remember, he helped me pick out the stain. His response - WHY? WHAT FOR? Again, I had to "fight for" my plan. (Which I planned to carry out myself)

Today, he came home from work and found me in the garage sanding. Again - "why are you doing this? They were fine just the way they were!! You're going to ruin them and I'm going to have to go spend $4000 on a &^*%&$ new coffee table!!" (Um, a $4000 coffee table?) I asked him to please give me some credit for trying to make something new on my own. No credit. Huge fight ensued, IN the garage.

I seriously feel like I'm darned if I do and I'm darned if I don't. Of course if a decor idea is HIS idea, it's a good idea.

Just venting, because if I don't, I'll just curl up and cry. I hate being made to feel like I'm the most evil person in the world if I want to change something, even if I'm not even asking for his help.

Thanks for listening.

Comments (85)

  • patricianat
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Chelone has a load of good advice. It is similar to what I have heard about Al-Anon. I had a friend who attended Al-Anon and I watched her work this magic in hers and her children's lives. Before her husband died, the two of them had lived a great life together in the last 20 years of their marriage and worked jointly counseling others. They went back to school together and were such a model couple with not only their relationship but on advising and setting the standard for couples everywhere and it all started with her and the kids going to Al-Anon. Wait, Al-Anon is not just for wives and children of alcoholics but for wives and children of controlling men. They teach you to go on with your lives and do what you can without including the spouse and after a while, spouse gets the idea that he/she is being left out and gets on the bandwagon.

    I think the theory is that some men whether they are addicted or not haver "addictive behavior" which includes being lazy out of not considering others and controlling because they only think of themselves. So in essence, you take it back to them but in a silent and meaningful way.

  • deborahnj
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Snookums for the record, your DH sounds just like my dad. His behavior was also cultural and what was expected for the men in the family. My dad was/is a spoiled brat as well. My mom did all the housework, decorating, raising the kids and working a full time job. She would often decorate the house with no input from my dad, yet he would brag and take credit for work that my mom did. I noticed that as we got older, she didn't ask, she just did. And you know what, when I was in college my parents bought a house and my dad did a ton of work to it without asking my mom and more importantly, without her asking him to help. I truly believe it was because she didn't buy into his tantrums and eventually he figured out they didn't work.

    I also agree with Squirrel, I think it inappropriate to suggest counseling. We all have moments in our marriages and they pass.

    My DH and my DS tell me that they can't figure out my reactions to things anymore. I wave a hand, roll the eyes and I'm done. I used to holler and scream and want long discussions and at some point realized that behavior didn't work and never solved anything. We all better for it.

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  • organic_smallhome
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, sorry. Didn't mean to be "inappropriate." Sheesh. Just gave my opinion--didn't realize that no opinions were wanted or needed. Last time I do that, that's for sure.

  • stbonner
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I actually think the suggestions for counseling were right on target. What you are describing is verbal and emotional abuse, which is being directed not only at you but at your children. The Disneyworld story is particularly disturbing, as what he did there is wrong on so many levels. I grew up in a household where my father was verbally and emotionally abusive to my mother. Don't think this isn't affecting your children in a negative way, because it is.

  • bungalow_house
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have to say that when I read this, it reminded me a LOT of my ex. It took me a long time to realize that his behavior was not appropriate.

    Your DH doesn't happen to be a police officer or firefighter AND a Leo, does he? :)

  • squirrelheaven
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So, true, Deborah, "wave a hand, roll the eyes and [be done with it]."

    (And, Snookums, would you really want your dh to be 'changed' and w/o all that ...passion and emotion? I doubt he thinks you are evil for changing the stain on a table or wanting new sofas :)

  • littledog
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OS, you wrote out of genuine concern, nothing to apologize for there. I think Patricia hit the nail on the head with the comment about addictive behaviour. From what snookums has written (especially by the time she got to the part about blaming HER because he didn't want to fulfil his promise to take his son to Disneyland), counseling doesn't seem to be over the top at all.

  • chelone
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Snookums, you mentioned that your husband is very handy and that his family owned apartment buildings?

    This is very familiar to me. We have done nearly every bit of landscaping and finish work in our home over the past 17 yrs.. We both come from families with strong grounding in the trades and there was a large pool of information/experience to draw on. BUT, over the years the relentless list of "to dos" has often taken the joy out of crossing something off the list. Frankly, hauling out the paintbrushes and the paint after a tough week at work doesn't really "jazz" me much of the time. And it's the same for the helpmeet. Maybe this is at the root of your husband's unwillingness to help?

    Here's what works for me when he's in the "I don't give a -hit" mindset:
    1.) Be specific about what you want him to do for you. No explanation, just a request (as 50% of the marriage bargain you have every right to expect his help when you ask for it). Be specific with the time you want it done. Smile, thank him, and then get about your business.
    2.) When he sees what you've accomplished and LIKES the result, tell him how much you appreciated his effort and how much easier his help made your project.

    Works with dogs and little kids... any nearly everyone else on the planet.

    Hang tough, vent here, and learn to use tools. We all could probably use some counselling, huh? ;)

  • brody_miasmom
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My mother-in-law (Italian) would have a fit if anyone tried to change or improve anything in her house. I always thought she believed that if she admitted that something needed changed or improved, that she herself somehow did not measure up. Of course she lived through the depression and was widowed as a young mother and had to make due. When she died, she had a very sizable savings account and a toilet that did not flush properly because the septic tank needed to be replaced. That cost a whopping $1800. Neither my hubby nor I were aware of the septic tank issue, we would have insisted she get it fixed. One of my husband's sisters was aware of the issue and often times had to bail out the overflow! Needless to say, she has some of the same issues!

  • wodka
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    organic, for what it's worth, I think you were right on target. So, if you're Italian or Greek, you get a free "pass" to act like an ass? I don't think so. Great excuse, but it just doesn't float. As far as "counseling" goes - when did that become such a bad thing? Counseling can be simply talking to your minister, or your physician, or someone certified who will not take sides and can see the whole picture and perhaps help you see it, too. While it's great to use a public forum like this (I have found it helpful in discussing Katrina) - we are all just strangers here, and all we know is what we tell each other online. There's a whole lot more to it, and snookums, at the end of the day, you're the one who has to deal with it.

  • fussy_chicken
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My 16 y/o DS is very much like this. Anything we ask him to do is wasting his precious time or causing him to suffer in some way. I assumed it was something he'd grow out of but now I'm feeling sorry for his future wife. Meanwhile DH (who is so not like this) and I basically do the same 2 steps that Chelone suggested and somehow manage to tolerate him.

  • squirrelheaven
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    LittleDog ... Snookums has already said she wasn't after opinions on what others think of her marriage, or dh for that matter. The least we can do here is show her a little respect. She said she needed a place to vent her frustration.

    And there are other ways to work on things without counseling, which is extreme, imo, and which can do more harm than good. The success rate isn't so good, so I would never try to lead someone down that path.

    Many good suggestions above for dealing with the decorating situation.

  • anele_gw
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Snookums, here is my take. As others have said, only you know your situation. Some people who say they are in your shoes may not be. Perhaps your DH is controlling in many aspects, while their partners may just not like decorating (that isn't controlling-- that is just different likes/dislikes). Only you know.

    I agree with wodka-- why is counseling such a bad thing anyway? I think just about everyone can benefit. If other people are in your situation, that can be comforting (sort of!), but it certainly does not fix it. Only you know to what extent his behavior affects you-- no matter WHERE it stems from (culture or otherwise).

    I think controlling behavior is FAR more common than most of us realize. So many people just want to sweep it under the rug. Women, especially, are told just to accept it.

    I hope that this is just an isolated thing. If it's not, I hope you get some sort of outside support. It would really bother me if my DH were to blame me for something (esp. if it were FALSE) to my children.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Signs of Verbal Abuse

  • wooderlander
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's not at all disrespectful to suggest counseling.

    It's difficult to read descriptions of these problems, which many of us can relate to, and remain silent. This is a message board, after all -- back and forth. If I were talking to a friend right here in my living room about this, I would want and expect to hear what she thought about it, or any suggestions she might have. It means she cares. It doesn't mean I have to follow them if I don't want to.

    No woman should have to work as hard as we all do for the family and then take on ALL the home improvement work on top of everything else just because DH gripes about it, plus put up with his resistance and criticism for wanting to get it done in the first place. I do think it's a control issue, no matter how great these guys are otherwise. Marriage is hard!

  • littledog
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Squirrel,
    ALL babies and bullies are passionate about getting their own way; just because someone happens to have married one doesn't mean they have to assume the role of Placating Mommy for the rest of their life. Whether you realize it or not, the people suggesting that snookums might want to something about the situation ARE showing they respect her as an intelligent human being whose concerns and interests are worth listening to, which seems to be more than she's getting from the um, "passionate" dh.

  • snookums
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First let me say that if I were truly wanting marriage advice, I would have put this in the conversations side of the forum, not decor. Really, I was just venting. I don't want to change him. Many times I do want him to just shut up.

    Fwiw, being half-Greek and growing up in the US is nowhere near the same cultural experience as being 100% Greek and growing up in Greece. Yes, their behavior is different. Yes, I have learned to deal with it. Doesn't mean I always like it. I don't think he's being an ass when he's dramatic. I don't like it though. His mother is worse than he is.

    I personally think that counseling could magnify a problem what wasn't so serious in the first place (or, shouldn't have been), and make it huge. What would be a 12-step program for this? Pick out paint colors together? He's not controlling in any sense of the word. If anyone is controlling, honestly, it's probably me. I do think his reluctance of helping me out with certain things could be a rebellion against that.

    If anyone is interested, the stain turned out like cr@p, so either we are painting them or getting new ones anyway.

    I don't think I'm going to post on this thread anymore when I've been put in a position to defend my marriage on a day when I really didn't feel like doing so. :)

  • squirrelheaven
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To what I am referring:

    Posted by squirrelheaven (My Page) on Sun, Jan 20, 08 at 15:25

    Only Snookums knows, but advising on counseling over this is a bit surprising and just seems so over the top.

    Posted by snookums (My Page) on Sun, Jan 20, 08 at 16:27

    Squirrel - I agree with you, particularly since I was simply venting, not really asking for marriage advice. I have no intention of "changing" him - as I know that would just be a losing battle. I'm just trying to work around the hurdles. Venting helps. I've learned with these forums that when advice is given, you take it with a grain of salt.


    If I had posted what she did, I would not feel good about being told I might have marital problems. Maybe there are numerous threads I haven't read though. If she was in danger, I could understand the need to express those types of opinions. But just because it's the net doesn't mean people should be saying whatever they feel like as if there's not a real human being on the other end with feelings. That most definitely would not go over well where I'm from. I also think it's healthier to argue than not to.

    OK, I've said enough of what I think! We don't agree and never will.

  • squirrelheaven
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Too bad for the stain :( Maybe you can still keep working it? Otherwise -- Plan B. Prime and Paint! to music :)

  • demeron
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Suggesting counseling is not an insult-- when two people can't work productively on their own, yay if they can bring in an experienced third who may be able to help them figure it out.

    'Normal' is different in every marriage. My dad's second marriage would have killed me in a week, but to him it was "normal marital squabbles." In this case, the DH's behavior would have me grabbing the lapels of a good marriage counselor, but the OP may be tougher than I am and prefer to just roll her eyes and take a shop class.

    Anyway, I trust the OP's dh has qualities that make up for any shortfalls, and I hope the OP can find a way to plough on with her projects regardless.

  • oceanna
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm sorry your stain didn't work out. How disappointing it is when we work hard on something and it doesn't come out the way we had hoped. I hope that through painting it you end up even happier than you'd thought you'd be with the stain. Thank heavens for stain and paint, huh? They really do give us huge options. As far as "mistakes" go (shall we call them learning experiences?) I have a whole lot of half-spent paint cans around here. I think many of us do.

    Still, I love to paint. It makes everything so fresh and clean and new, and it's such an inexpensive way to totally change the look of a piece of furniture, or a whole room. Paint can make all the difference.

    As far as behavior, it can be changed, slowly, subtly and without fights or stress to anyone. I remember reading in "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor of a young woman whose FIL lived with them. Her DH and FIL weren't very considerate of her and her mother was worried about it. The young woman assured her mom that she had things under control.

    Every time the men gave her commands like "go get me a beer!" the woman did it but dragged and dawdled about it quite slowly. Every time they said or did things she liked, she rewarded them with lots of positive attention. The mother visited one year later and was astounded at what she saw... the two men were treating her daughter like a queen!

    I learned a lot of good techniques from that book. One situation particularly comes to mind. My friend who was living with me/on me didn't want to get a job. I told him he absolutely had to. He threw a 7-hour temper tantrum and sulk-and-pout over it which I had expected and didn't take personally, thanks to that book. He was yelling at me so I told him to continue on but I had to groom the dog. I went downstairs and put the dog on the table and began to comb and scissor. He followed me down there and tried to keep up the argument but it was obvious my attention was elsewhere. After a while he gave up and went back upstairs. Good! I don't like to be yelled at. When all his hours of shouting and pouting obviously didn't move me (no fighting or arguing on my part) he gave up and got a job. YAY! That's when I knew I'd learned some really good stuff from that book. :-)

  • organic_smallhome
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    squirrrel: For goodness sake, speaking for myself--and I was the first to respond to the OP--I merely made a suggestion of counseling and was simply trying to offer a helpful point of view. For that to be taken as a sign of "disrespect" is totally unfair. If someone comes on the forum and states that her husband is making her want to cry because he is often disrespectful to her, I'm not quite sure what the "appropriate" response should be.

    snookums: I meant no disrespect, but if you don't want people to offer you suggestions to help remedy what you yourself say is an ongoing problem in your marriage, then I don't understand why you posted in the first place. If all you wanted to do was vent, then--again--I'm not sure what you would have considered an "appropriate" response. In any case, I was only trying to help.

    And that's the end of this thread, for me.

  • squirrelheaven
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What I said was .... that it was disrespectful for people to continue on with the counseling suggestions and remarks about her husband after she had stated herself that she wasn't looking for marital advice. And on it went. That is disrespectful of someone else's feelings -- and she was the poster.

    I found what you said surprising. If you look at the thread, you should see that.

    No, Organic, I most definitely do not think you are an inconsiderate person and do see your suggestion as caring about her but ... quite a leap.

  • blue999
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Some men really hate change. Also, some can feel insecure if you are constantly making changes because they worry that you will never be satisfied (implied: with anything including them). Lots of change can feel like instability as well to someone who is very routine based.

    Some, like my boyfriend, get very attached to their things or a wall color or a certain furniture arrangement and feel that it's being taken away from them if changed. What most men don't understand though is how important it for us. I would explain to him that decorating and changing things up is your form of expression and that he is just going to have to understand that.

    I doubt he's just trying to give you a hard time for no reason! There's probably something making him uncomfortable or he wouldn't complain but you've got to be you. No matter what.

  • love-my-lilhome
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Husbands husbands husbands.
    Someone probably wrote a book one time.

    snookums, I can't give you any advice regarding
    your husbands personality.

    The only advice I can give you is the advice I
    gave myself a few weeks after marriage 25 yrs ago.

    I'll make this short and to the point.

    You figure out how to handle this problem so you will have peace and calm and can enjoy your efforts.
    If you can't include him in decorating decisions why try???

    You don't have to have him to hang anything or to paint anything.
    You can do anything you put your mind to.

    If you need an extra hand to help you in any project, ask
    a sister, a friend or an enemy.

    Anyone will be better than someone who is going to gripe.
    You don't have to hear it if you do your best to arrange your decorating around him any way you have to.

    We can't have it all and I can assure you some of these
    women out there in the real world with DH who loooves to help with all decorating and is standing there telling her what color couch he wants and he doesn't want yellow walls he wants green.....duh.
    Would you want that????

    I think not.

    Like I said , work it out for YOU. Its your home and he could care less if you have orange crates for end tables.

    Where there is a will there is a way.
    I'm on your team.

  • never_ending
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wonderful advice lilhome. I don't think complaining about a husband is any worse than complaining about the kids, they can make me want to cry too (seriously) when they trash the house completely by being kids. Plus they do have bad behaviour issues we're constantly working on!;-)

    Husband's can't be everything, so yes work around it, ignore it, manipulate it, and when your frustrated, mad and angry and a little hurt because your misunderstood, CRY! Every husband has an issue.

    My friend whose husband most would consider an overbearing control freak summed up their relationship by saying-"We fight passionately, and we LOVE passionately. End of story.

    Those of us with hot headed, passionate,and sometimes lazy men understand the issue, you don't need counseling, you need decorating help and an ear!

    BTW have you tried gel stain for the tables? Got a picture? Re-post.

  • teeisme57
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi, I'm new to this board (this is my 1st post) and I so identify with you Snookums. I am often met with the same response when I do something around my house, too. As a person who loves to decorate, I think you have to remember that not everyone shares our enthusium and are quite content to leave things alone. It's just not important to them.When those non-decoraters see us refinishing a piece of furniture, they don't realize that it is usually just a part of a much larger vision we have, that we've been planning in our heads or on paper for sometime and therefore, it makes no sense to them. I do what I do in my home because it makes me happy and I get a lot of self satisfation from doing it, and not just from the end result. Keep doing what you're doing! If you don't you'll be very unhappy.

  • Alice Johannen
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So wow. This has been very interesting reading for sure. But WE don't all need to be in a big fight about it, right? Ever heard the (quite crude) one about opinions? Don't continue reading if you don't like 3-letter bathroom words:

    Opinions are like asses ... everyone has them, and "everyone else's" stink.

    I think this points out what many others have said. Just because there is a problem doesn't mean the marriage is troubled. Everyone has different amounts of strife they can tolerate. I know a couple of other couples who are perfectly happy and yet I could NEVER tolerate the husband because of his behavior toward his wife. This is why I'm not married to those men and instead I have my husband. Mine's not perfect -- I'm sure there are women thinking they could NEVER be married to him because of X Y or Z. But I love him and forgive him his trespasses, as it were.

    You know, both my husband and I react badly to being asked to do something. We've talked about it and neither of us can identify why this is true. Perhaps it's a maturity thing? A control thing? I have no idea. But I've found that co-creating a to-do list and leaving it out in a visible location lets me pick and choose what I can/will do, and same for DH. He's a pretty industrious guy, though, so this works for us. I wouldn't know what to do with a husband who just sat and watched the tube. I'd probably vent on this board! :-)

    Two more thoughts:

    It's very true and I suspect you know this already: It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. So go ahead and DO and then ask for forgiveness. If/when you first ask permission, you're likely not to get it and then need to fight for it.

    Finally, my husband is very handy and goes crazy when things aren't done the right way. When he hears me talking about my "wrong" way to do something (because I'm being a renegade and just doing it all myself), he jumps right in. And then I praise him to pieces. :-)

  • acoreana
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    LOL! love-my-lilhome just reminded me about the time I posted on the kitchen forum a while back regarding how jealous I was of the women who got to design their whole kitchen themselves with no comprimising, lol! My XH could not have cared less about home decor, furniture selections, paint colors, etc., so I did as I wanted on my own. It has taken quite a bit of getting used to with DBF's involvement in every selection. I longed for it back when I felt it was "all on me" but now that I don't just pick out what I like...well...it can be just as frustrating.

    Be careful what you wish for, lol!

    Nat :)

  • greenmtn
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I keeping thinking about a Dear Abby column years ago where the wife said her husband always complained about her decorating and changing things. One day the wife took all of the nonessential things out of the den (no pictures, no accessories, no pillows...). The husband took one look and asked why. She explained how he always complained about those things so she took them away. He got the message loud and clear and stopped fussing (well, as much).

    I've always remembered that column and thought how funny it was.

  • CaroleOH
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have been married to my husband for 21 years. He is a very successful businessman - started his own company, works hard, is also a competitive golfer - ie. US Amateur, Mid Amateur etc.

    He is the most unhandy guy around. Hates it, doesn't want to do it, doesn't understand why I want to do it etc. He would be happy in a basic house with a comfortable chair, a remote and a nice TV that had the Golf Channel.

    We have come to an understanding over the years, I don't ask him to do things, and he doesn't say I can't do things. If I can't do it myself, I hire someone. The only thing I've learned is I need to pace my projects. He can handle only so much at one time! He dislikes more the disorder and mess of my decorating projects. So, I often plan things to occur if I know he's going out of town etc.

    I think in a marriage, you both have to accept what the other likes and doesn't like to do. My Brother loves to be involved in decorating stuff. My Sister in law and he argue for hours over paint colors, sofa choices etc. I would HATE having my hubby tell me what he likes - he has no taste. When I ask him which paint color he likes, he actually says to me - why do you ask? I can't tell which would look better, I need to see it all done, then I know if I like it or not.

    Your hubby does sound dramatic, but so what? That's his way, and you can learn to live with it. I would strongly suggest you 1) pace your projects - just do one every other month or so. 2) Start doing them on your own, or hire someone. If he's handy like you say, he may want to get involved if he sees some other guy coming in the house.
    3) Don't talk about the project too much, just do it. Maybe he's feeling overwhelmed by the decision making aspect of the project.

    I do also agree that many men do not like change. My husband is like that. He has tee shirts that he got from Triathalons he did in his 20's (25 years ago!) He keeps everything and will wear the same clothes for years. If it doesn't have a hole, why replace it?

    I've had many a day where I've thought, why didn't I chose a mate who would enjoy going to a flea market or antiquing on the weekends? He probably wishes He chosen a mate who liked to golf every weekend, or who was a runner or more athletic.

    As far as the Disneyland issue, I know sometimes when you're the family that always drives, always chaperones etc...you tend to get taken advantage of. Many of my kids friends seem to hang back and see whether we'll step up and offer to drive. Sometimes, you just need to say no - you can't go unless someone's else's parent drives. My kids may not be happy, but they tend to push a bit harder on the other friend to get their parents to drive, or split the driving etc.

  • ladynimue
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was watching a decorating show last night, a repeat I believe. The husband and wife were arguing, screaming at each other, over whether a picture should be placed in a certain area of the dining room. All of the sudden they stopped, looked at each other and burst out laughing! Then the wife joked, "I think we need counseling."

    Snookums, I understand your need to vent when you're feeling so frustrated and stressed. And I'm sorry that your 'hobby', what you love to do, is sometimes so full of stress. That's a real bummer, I'm sure.

  • holly_bc
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Organic said:
    snookums: . . . if you don't want people to offer you suggestions to help remedy what you yourself say is an ongoing problem in your marriage, then I don't understand why you posted in the first place. If all you wanted to do was vent, then--again--I'm not sure what you would have considered an "appropriate" response. . . .

    And I agree entirely. Perhaps you might re-read your initial post Snookums. Surely sounded to me like ya wanted folks to share their thots and wanted a little help with these issues you are dealing with. So they kindly do so and then you proceed to get defensive and poopy.

    Perhaps in future, as you say you've *vented* over these issues before, you might add a last line to such posts which says "Please do not reply to this thread. It is strictly for a personal b***ch and whine session". Then everyone will know what to do.

    AFAIAC - Bad behaviour is bad behaviour no matter where you were born or grew up. One's place of birth maybe a contributing factor to the origin of said behaviour but it is not an excuse for it's continuance.

    But your mileage seems to vary.

  • runninginplace
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Warning-I ended up writing a volume here...

    What an amazing conversation. I've deliberately kept quiet to 'hear' what others say about the topic-then again I'm close to a lurker anyway but read constantly :).

    I have to weigh in on the side of lilhome, squirrel et al. I won't repeat all they've so sagely said but I will say that I agree with them wholeheartedly and have the marital background to know what I"m talking about!

    My husband is a real handful too. He in some ways embodies every single one of the problem traits folks have mentioned here. He is extremely rational/analytical (a systems analyst of German extraction 'nuff said) so the concept of changing anything functional for the sake of decor is beyond ridiculous in his mind. He is frugal/thrifty to an extreme so double the first attitude--if it ain't broke and it works it horrifies him to even consider changing or getting rid of it. Spending any money on the house for something that is still functional (even if it is old, worn, damaged or barely working) is in his mind utterly wasteful. What else...he grew up with a father and brother who were builders, both of whom he worked with/for. So, he not only knows the 'best' way to do just about anything, but is in fact theoretically capable of doing just about any task or job so is firmly convinced that nobody but him could or would do it as well. That begs the point that he sets up standards of perfection that no human can attain which gives him yet another reason/excuse not to do X project. Add to that disliking spending money and of course he adamantly refuses to consider the possibility of hiring anyone. However he works and teaches as an adjunct faculty so he doesn't have a lot of time to do any of the many things he 'could' handle himself. If he does ever start something it can take quite literally years or decades to get finished (ask me about the hole in the ceiling that was there for 20 years).

    On top of that he loathes doing any kind of chore that bores him-which almost any home fix or repair does-and will always, always choose to be out in the boat, or canoeing or whatever hobby has his interest at the moment. Stubborn too, has never in 22+ years of marriage ever admitted he is wrong. The piece of resistance: he is colorblind and so has no inkling about the difference in tones of colors, decor color schemes etc. His own MOTHER has said she couldn't handle being married to him!

    How can I possibly put up with this monster you might ask? Let me count the ways: he is the most trustworthy, reliable and principled man I've ever met in my life. I know without a shadow of a doubt he will be there for me always, he is my rock. He is devoted to me and has been since the first date we had almost 30 years ago. He loves to have conversations and we have an ongoing discussion about our life and everything in it that is still as fresh as it was the first time we talked. He is the best career/family/life coach and counselor I could possibly imagine and I trust his insights because they are grounded in his care for me. He is the best father I've ever seen; all of the hobbies he ignores home projects for involve doing things with our kids. He is a fully equal partner in running the household including doing the laundry (and yes, that includes folding and putting it away), carpool duty for the kids, grocery runs, cleaning, and making and keeping dr's and dental appointments for the family. He has a fabulous sense of humor, and he still makes me laugh like nobody else. He is in fantastic shape, athletic and slim. He has a warm caring heart and is the best friend anyone could have; once he lets someone in he is there for the long haul no matter what. He has taken care of not only me but members of my family since we have been together and is there for them no matter what. Oh, and as for his mother-he enthusiastically encouraged her to move in 2 blocks from us and now that she is a widow he goes there twice daily to check on her, and takes care of every problem or issue that comes up so she doesn't have to worry.

    So...in sum it is impossible for anyone on an electronic bulletin board-or in real life for that matter-to know the true balance between any couple. Snookums sounded in her original post like an exasperated and frustrated wife who wanted to smack her husband with the stain can and I can more than identify with that.

    OTOH, I also second the very wise advice others have given because it has worked for me. I've learned not to expect my husband to care about the projects I want to do. I've learned not to take it so personally. It doesn't mean he doesn't love me. It just means he is never going to feel the way I do about fixing up our home. I get my reward when I've done some project and I see him using it, knowing he is more comfortable and his home is even more a refuge for him from that hard cold world out there. So he gives me grief about my plans and I usually just say 'well, it's important to ME' and leave it at that. I never, ever expect my husband to engage on decorating decisions. Heck I never expect him to LIKE any of them! Doesn't mean I don't decorate, just that I give both of us the peace of mind of avoiding that source of aggravation.

    And snookums, one more suggestion. Instead of engaging in that dance of anger and frustration, next time he acts up use the most powerful weapon you have: the warmth of your attention. In my experience the most impactful message any partner can send to another is 'you have hurt me so badly that I can't connect with you. You are not in my heart right now.' Withdrawing, at least long enough to send the message that you won't be disrespected, is the strongest signal you can send that you won't accept that. However, DON'T let that turn into an extended silent treatment! When you feel you can talk rationally, and not out of deep hurt, discuss how you feel. Own your feelings and let him own his. Then move on. At least this is what I've found works for me. May or may not for you but good luck in the journey.

    I want to add one more thing to Organic Smallhome: as mentioned I am a lurker most of the time but I can think of several very heated arguments over the past couple of months and you seem to have been in the thick of most of them. Frankly this statement:

    "Well, sorry. Didn't mean to be "inappropriate." Sheesh. Just gave my opinion--didn't realize that no opinions were wanted or needed. Last time I do that, that's for sure."

    in my opinion isn't helpful, it isn't kind and it isn't warranted. As others have pointed out, an online forum is a place where sometimes opinions may not be liked or taken well. And sometimes the better part of cyber valor is to just keep quiet, accept that your .02 cents wasn't appreciated and move on. Not get huffy and insulting to the folks who disagreed with you.

    And that's my well over .02 cents' worth!

    Ann

  • organic_smallhome
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    runninginplace: There have been a number of heated arguments I haven't been "in the thick of," as well. In fact, I have made a point of NOT getting involved. In any case, I really don't see why you felt the need to publicly admonish me for my involvement in other threads. I think that is very, very rude, and completely unrelated to this thread--and a little creepy. As I said, when I suggested counseling, I was only trying to help. I wasn't trying to be rude, or insensitive, or anything like that. And I think that anybody else who suggested counseling was also just trying to be helpful. Apparently, however, it was the wrong thing to suggest. Fine. I'm sorry. As for the quote you provided in reference to my statements, you're right that it wasn't "helpful," but it certainly wasn't "unkind," and was, as far as I was concerned, "warranted" in terms of how I felt--whether you agree or not. In any case, not to worry: I won't be offering marriage advice ever again on this forum. The advice I did offer was on behalf of snookums--or at least, that's how I meant it.

    squirrel: Okay. No problem. Thanks for clarifying that--I appreciate it.

  • wodka
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't know how to do this, but I think, if possible, I would like to encourage the Garden Web moderators to come in and delete this entire thread, all posts, etc. It seems to be causing hurt feelings, and not only to snookums. Some valid points were made, on both sides of the fence, I think we all posted out of concern, but nobody's getting anywhere with this discussion.

  • Tryin2Grow
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sure sounds like there's a boatload of marital counseling going on right here.

    So much has been offered in the way of how to appease, pacify, calm, and tolerate said husband.

    Many of you have suggested ways to deal with his behavior, attitude and so on. That's what counseling would do too.

    Sounds like you all have done exactly what Organic suggested the OP seek out.

    That's the way it appears from my seat anyway.

  • organic_smallhome
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    wodka: I agree. Let's just all make up and forget this whole debacle?

    tryin2grow: I hadn't even noticed that. :)

  • iasheff
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow! It is time for everyone to take a breath.

    I just wanted to make a comment about counseling-- not all of us consider 'counseling' to be where you have to sit with a licensed counselor, venting our frustrations.

    For some of us, posting on a forum... telling everyone what a jerk our DH is being at the moment... is enough 'counseling' to last for months. For others, taking a long walk does much more good than sitting in a counselor's office for 45 minutes. Some of you may clean when you get frustrated... others may paint. I have a friend who calls and will spend 20 mins straight talking about how p*ssed she is-- doesn't expect me to answer or agree or disagree... just needs to have someone listen to her. It does her a world of good-- much better for her than when she was going to a counselor (she tried a couple!). My husband goes fishing with his brother when he starts getting frustrated about things. I always look forward to it because I know he will come back a much happier, satisfied person.

    What I am getting at is that by snookums posting, she was using her own version of 'counseling'. It works for her, it is much cheaper than a psychologist and a heck of a lot quicker!

  • reno_fan
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Everyone here knows that if you post about *anything* you'll get opinions that you both agree and disagree with. Like Snookums said, you take it with a grain of salt.

    It's surprising to me to see people arguing about what advice she should/shouldn't take. I agree with this statement:

    As others have pointed out, an online forum is a place where sometimes opinions may not be liked or taken well. And sometimes the better part of cyber valor is to just keep quiet, accept that your .02 cents wasn't appreciated and move on. Not get huffy and insulting to the folks who disagreed with you.

  • msjay2u
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think I was the culprit who suggested counseling, because snookums messages sounded to me like she was crying for help THUS all the details on his behavior. I am a firm believer that we all deserve to be treated with respect and no you can't change anyone but if you are going to live with him till death do you part then counseling will help him to learn new behaviors and if he wants HE will change himself. You can't change anyone and I would never suggest that you try. Thats a battle many women have lost.

    If I overstepped, please excuse me. Like I said it sounded to me like you were giving all those details on his behavior for a reason. Maybe it was so we can tell you what a butt hole he is. Okay he's a butt hole. LOL
    No harm intended.
    Good Luck!

  • graywings123
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What I find humorous is that anyone thinks that a guy like this would agree to go for counseling.

  • patty_cakes
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tell him to mind his own business. LOL Remind him that HOME is *your* domain, and his work is his, and you don't interfere in that area. Tell him you also enjoy making your home beautiful and it's okay to try new and different things, and if something gets ruined in the process, yor're a BIG GIRL and will take responsibility.

    I think your DH and my ex were cut from the same pattern, although we *do* get along now. I'm actually living with him while a new house is being built for me in TX. Every once in a while, when he *tries* that control thing, I tell him to mind his own business or i'm going to rent an apartment. LOL I know he likes having me around, and that's my ace in the hole. If i'm not mistaken, I think your DH feels the same~that's YOUR ace in the hole. Use it!! ;o)

  • patty_cakes
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think never_ending is right on the money. Passion comes in many forms, and the 'heat' of passion is only one. He may be passionate about his home, but changing things isn't a necessity. He's probably BEYOND passionate when it comes to sports! And as for his children, he IS passionate, but not when it comes to taking them places, or entertaining them, at least while they're younger. He could change drastically when they get older, for the better! I'll bet when it comes to having health/dental care, a nice home(minus the decorating LOL), safe neighborhood, food always on the table, he would work two jobs to provide for them. *These* are the things that are taken for granted.

    And snookums, i'll bet he would marry you again in a Texas heartbeat, even knowing about your decorating 'compulsion'. Sometimes love truly is blind. ;o)

  • ladyamity
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can't match patterns to save my life.
    I can barely make two rooms flow.
    I hardly ever have decorating advice.
    Once in a while I can offer a budget idea or two.

    Then comes the time when I can offer advice because of my age, marriage years and all the kid/teen/young adult related problems I went through over the years.

    So that's why I'm here *smile*
    When it comes to marriage, relationships, heck,
    even several hundred different personalities on a Decorating Message Forum, my Momma's advice still holds true today.

    My Momma told me when I was about to take my marriage vows:
    "Pick your battles. If it ain't gonna matter a hill 'o beans five years from now, don't sweat it".

    I'm way over the half century mark and I was married very young.
    With five kids and a husband who has some quirks --- no judge or jury in the country would find me guilty had I throttled his neck a few times over the years---
    Those words have served me well all my years of marriage to the same man and if it weren't for me following those words of my Momma's when it came to raising my kids I probably would have had Child Welfare knocking on my door and on my arse more than a few times.

    Is my husband perfect? OH HELL NOOOO! But, neither am I.
    It's my willingness to overlook those little irritating things he does that make all the great things he does look even greater and those little irritating things just drop in a bucket.

    It's been a little over thirty years since we bought this home.
    My husband felt it was sacrilegious to paint paneling, or any wood for that matter.
    He'd even puff out his chest when he was about to plead his case about not painting wood furniture or paneling.
    My, have we come a long way! LOL
    * just trying to add a little levity to this post*

    As it was when we bought the house. [{{gwi:1577586}}](http://s87.photobucket.com/albums/k137/Lady_Amity/Odds%20and%20Ends/?action=view%C2%A4t=HouseGardenStuff.jpg) Dang\-\-My apologies for the humungo photo! Now [{{gwi:1577587}}](http://s87.photobucket.com/albums/k137/Lady_Amity/Odds%20and%20Ends/?action=view%C2%A4t=FauxCinderBlockWalls.jpg)
  • piper101
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Snookums - I read a bunch of responses then just jumped ahead to put in my .02 cents. I've learned a few things having been married once before my current husband. #1 - You may have a spouse that is never satisfied. #1 was like that and it's part of their demoralizing way of controlling the situation and getting you to jump through hoops. LESSON LEARNED - No one spouse can carry the burden of making the relationship work, making it happy etc. Refuse to be the burden carrier if this is the case.

    Couple of suggestions: You could say, or have the attitude that his level of satisfaction regarding decorating, home improvement is level A but since you like it at level C that you will bring it up there as you see fit. You're not asking him to agree to it, you're just telling him. What about the next time something needs doing, he hasn't done it after 2 askings that you just go ahead, hire a handyman and have it done? When he squawks tell him, hey you had your chance to do it, you obviously didn't deem it important so "I took care of it for you. Aren't you glad honey, I took that load off your plate." One of two things will happen, especially if you do this every time, he'll either begin to do it himself if he doesn't like spending the money or he'll be fine with it as you've handled it. If he's not fine, then he has to do it by deadline A or again, you'll take care of it.
    As many have said, when throwing his fits, walk out of the room or refuse to respond telling him when he wants to have calm, rational, nonacusatory conversation, he can find you, until then, you've got other things to do.

    With DH #2 of 13 yrs, he has a higher standard when it comes to some cleaning issues that bug him and don't bug me. He's a busy body and I just tell him, hey, I'm willing to bring it to this level, if you want it better than this or whatever, then you can take it from there. Yes, at times I do feel a twinge of guilt but that is my own fault for even feeling it. Luckily I have a very DIY DH, mostly because he'd rather do it than spend the $$ and he's very talented in many areas and can do it. So I'm grateful. Plus nobody could accuse him of being lazy.

    Does your DH have a high level of frustration when he can't figure things out, get them done etc.? Maybe this is his throwing smoke so he doesn't have to deal with that issue (thre real fire). Better to not do task, than feel frustration or inadequacy over not being able to do it. You follow? Again, you doing it or better yet handyman could be an answer here.

    My house is my haven from the outside world and I'll be D&^@ed if anyone is NOT going to let me make it that way. Keep doing what you're doing girl!!!! We're with you. :)

  • mitchdesj
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Ugh. I'm so glad to see here too that my dh isn't the only one like this."

    this is what snookums posted a while back in this thread; I think this is what she wanted to hear and why she posted what she did.

    whatever else was posted regarding relationships might help someone else get rid of their frustrations regarding their marriage/relationship. We all have different agendas at different times and old patterns are hard to break.

  • texashottie
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hmm... I just found this thread.

    My husband is very similar to Snookum's. I think if they took a personality test, they would have similar dispositions. I've also called my DH a "drama queen" and I've nicknamed my MIL (not to her face) "DramaMama." His entire family is that way---and I'm the flip opposite.

    My DH freaks out when I tell him about projects I want to do. It's as if he has no faith in me to pull it off. Now, I just do it. I don't tell him about it, I just do it. And I do it when he's gone. Otherwise he's worrying and hanging over my shoulder and telling me I'm not being detail-oriented enough. And I've learned to go to JoAnn's and Lowe's without him.

    For my DH, too, he worries that it won't turn out and that it's a "waste of money." Then we'll have to pay someone else to make it right.

    If we hire a professional, though, the stress leaves him. He immediately has confidence in them.

    I just chalk this up as part of my DH's personality. I'm guessing Snookum's DH works hard, wants to come home to peace, and a home project is enough to put him on edge. My DH is very Type-A, very anal, and very high-strung, and obsesses over details---he's a MD and it goes with the territory. I can accept that. I just "work around" it. ;)

    Snook, I hear ya. But I wouldn't trade my DH for the world either. ;) If this is the worst thing he does, I have nothing to complain about.

  • wooderlander
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Piper 101: "Does your DH have a high level of frustration when he can't figure things out, get them done etc.? Maybe this is his throwing smoke so he doesn't have to deal with that issue (thre real fire). Better to not do task, than feel frustration or inadequacy over not being able to do it. You follow?"

    Yes! I believe you have just described my husband! He prides himself on his ability to fix things and he has the desire, but he doesn't always do a great job for one reason or another. Plus he doesn't like to spend money. You have helped me to understand something that I couldn't figure out before. Thank you!

    To others: Please let's don't pick on Organic smallhome or anyone else. Thank you!

  • moonshadow
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Reading down this page things sure took some sour turns along the way. :/ How sad, not only for snookum's, but for each of us. It reads that if we open up about anything personal, it's a free for all. Why is that?

    Over the years many of us have shared trials, errors, hard work, accomplishments, each others joys, sorrows and even shed some tears together. We invite each other into our homes, wouldn't it be nice if we could invite each other into our lives now and then, share a frustration or a 'vent' over a cup of tea, offer a little empathy and just leave it at that? Keep the harsh comments, criticisms and judgment to ourselves? What possible good does it accomplish to put down this woman's husband? (Who among us and our collective DHs hasn't been a horse's rear over something?) Offering a shared similarity or supportive suggestions that might help manage what's bothering her is one thing, telling her she's married to a _______ (fill in the blank, there are multiple derogatory choices above) is another matter altogether. Of course snookums got defensive, and then she gets bashed for that.

    Just because it's cyberspace doesn't mean we get license to pull out all the stops. How we respond to each other in threads like this can make all the difference in whether a fellow human being ends up feeling just a little bit better about themselves and a little bit more empowered to tackle and improve their particular situation, or more beaten down than before they ventured to bare their soul a little bit.

  • msjay2u
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If I hurt your fellings. *Sorry*
    I really mean it and from now on I will keep my 2 cents to myself especially when I did not respond to the real question which I think was how to do your projects in peace.