Do you have a layout with all measurements? Things like widths of windows, doorways/openings, wall segments (e.g., distances b/w each wall and each window).

A layout of the entire first floor would also help....just draw it by hand. It doesn't have to be perfectly to-scale...just close; but label each room w/its approx dimensions. It will give us a much better view of the first floor's flow, size in relation to the kitchen, etc.

Have you had a chance to read the "Read Me" thread? There's a "Layout Help" topic that talks about what other information would be helpful for us to help you.

++++++

Plan A: First of all, the lack of counterspace b/w the sink and range would be a deal-breaker for me. I had 24" in my old kitchen and it drove me crazy! I was constantly shifting things around just to work in that small space. 15" Would be even worse!
If nothing else can be worked out, you may have to move the DW to b/w the range and sink to gain prep space. I really don't like the idea, but you may not have a choice. Let's work really hard to avoid it!
If that small support wall that has to stay is 36" wide/deep and cannot be shallower, then you will need a 9" to 12" cabinet b/w the refrigerator and the wall. So, I would put the pantry cabinet on the other side of the refrigerator.

Plan B: You will probably only need a 12" cab b/w the wall and refrigerator...so that would gain you another 3" b/w the range & refrigerator (to make a 27" cabinet).
That 9" cabinet ("open shelves") would work as a tray cabinet (e.g., cutting boards, cookie sheets, cooling racks, pizza stone, etc.).

General: I strongly recommend all drawers instead of "standard" base cabinets.
Do you have a pantry elsewhere?
Are both windows about 5' off the floor? If so, can you really see out either of them?
Can the support wall be moved to the other side of the opening to the LR? Or, does it have to stay right where it is?
Can the support wall be reduced to 24"?
How "thick" is the support wall (it looks thicker than the normal 4.5" or so of an interior wall).
How big is your LR?

Here is a link that might be useful: Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens!

Yes-I have a small kitchen-your A plan is a green light. Can you spend some budget on cab depth fridg-panels optional? Fridg is a lot of square footage so anything to streamline the look is worth it. Even a smaller fridg-Liebherr is grand and will give you resale value as a feature. I like the table-can do round, square, farmhouse-long-against the wall-maybe with drop leaf for day to day. The table in the other area is not great-it is a walkway-the chairs there would bother me. A front door area is not really a constant walkway. Cabs and all-keep it simple with shaker-only get the wall cabs that you need. Open wall areas keep it airy.

Both tables are in the same walkway. The advantage of the table in Plan B is that you could use the wall space as well...depending on the size of the LR and/or hallway...to give you more "breathing space"...both for someone sitting at the table as well as someone working in the kitchen.

I really think we need more information. Right now, Plan A, to me, is a no-go b/c it puts all the primary work areas in one small area...with only 15" of workspace. Some rearranging may help and make it more functional...like get some of the counterspace out of less-desirable locations and into the prime area (b/w the range & sink).

I have a couple of ideas, but I need more information (see previous post)....

Chem_kt...please check the "Read Me" thread's "Layout Help" topic and get back to us!

In Plan B, I would try putting the fridge against the blank wall. Tall custom pantry or something to its right, which would be even with the support wall. Not ideal to get into, but would still include some useful storage for this and that. More importantly, it would enable you to move the range to the right and give yourself more prep space.

Throwing out a crazy one. What about something like this? I'm thinking an 18" dw would maximize your space regardless of layout. A 1BR home probably won't ever need more than an 18"dw.

Pros: more space around range than plan A, seating for 4, prep and/or sink facing out the good view.

Cons: most of that seating will be hard to get to/push past and faces away from view, no dedicated pantry.

Thanks for your ideas! Here is more information for you - sorry for not posting this earlier.

house layout (we are adding in a second bedroom/office):

answers to questions/comments:
- we will not have a pantry elsewhere

- large front window is about 3-4 ft off the floor - I can see out of it if we were to put the sink there. small side window is ~5 ft off of floor

- there is some flexibility with the support wall - it can be moved to the other side, theoretically can be reduced (but this option will be more expensive since we'd need a longer support beam for a wider opening to the kitchen)

- support wall will be normal thickness 4.5" (sorry for my bad drawing)

- living room is ~ 15'x10'

herbflavor:
A counter depth fridge is a great idea, but they are a little too expensive. We are planning on keeping everything simple - white shaker cabs, maybe open shelving in certain places instead of wall cabs.

What kind of furniture do you currently have in the living room? Seems you could solve a lot of problems by putting a small dining table in there. I envision a table pushed up against the wall on the left with a flat tv hung on the wall over it. Two chairs can be on that left side of the fireplace that could be used as living room or dining seating by being pulled up to the table. The sofa would be on the other side of the fireplace facing the wall with the table and tv.

This would allow you to do a full u-shaped kitchen with the sink under the large window. The only real negative would be that you would likely need to close up the window that faces the neighbors in order to put the range on that wall.

Can you not make a U-shaped kitchen out of one of these plans? For example: Plan B: swing the fridge around to be on the left hand wall and move the stove down a bit to be centered on it's current wall. Instead of cupboards on the support wall put open shelving so that it won't seem closed in and continue the counter to form your peninsula/table.

Plan A: Same idea. Continue your counter run in front of the big window, put your sink there, move the stove over to be centered on that same outside wall. The counter with the sink could be turned and formed into a peninsula with an overhang for seating.

For either of these plans more fine-tuning would be needed and perhaps you have already considered and discarded the idea. It appears that you have enough width for a u-shaped kitchen but there may be other limiting factors which I'm not noticing.

controlfreakecs:
Actually - no furniture yet. everything is pretty much a blank slate. A dining room table could work against that living room wall. I think I would prefer an eating area in the kitchen, but this is definitely an option.

blfenton:
You're right - there is enough room to make a U-shaped kitchen, but I don't think it gives you enough room for an eating area.

We tried a peninsula for plan A (sink at the big window, fridge next to support wall, range on same wall as fridge just to its left - so we could leave the existing side window) but the peninsula can't be very long because the fridge is at the other end and needs space to open. When we taped this layout in the room, it felt pretty crowded.

I guess it might work if we took out the small side window, put the range on that wall, centered the fridge on the back wall and put a pantry to its right next to the support wall. But again, I think it might just feel too crowded.

The idea of two parallel counters is good.
You get better views.
More access to all the windows.
No corners.
More accessible countertop.

Parallel counters makes it like a galley.
More aisle.
More drawers.

laxsupermom nailed it.
Your aisle can be narrow.
The central counter can be large, and it can extend into the open space.
You could hang an art screen over it at the end.
The DW can be 24" if you want that.
You could have two sinks.

I think that in a small space, a U shape is not good.
Corners are a loss, in any case, no matter what size the kitchen is.

I like Plan A better than Plan B but think it would work much better if you swapped the DW and sink. That would give you 2 more feet of prep space between the sink and the range. I know it's not ideal to prep in front of the DW but, hey, it's a small kitchen. I did a lot of my prep in front of the DW in our last kitchen and it was never a problem. I also wouldn't like eating every meal at the peninsula in plan B (hard to have an intimate dinner there) and I really don't like the chairs in the walkway. The chairs in Plan A don't look like they are in any walkway to me and the table looks inviting. Plus it can be used as a large work surface (wrapping gifts etc) or baking counter as needed. Overall, I think Plan A would give you a prettier kitchen that flows nicely with your house and it will function well too.

I really like Laxsupermom's layout too but I prefer a table for eating rather than sitting in a row.

Just a suggestion. If the house is going to remain one bedroom, definitely consider using smaller appliances. The counter and cabinet space would be more useful.

123 inches across is too much space i.m.o. so it's not a small kitchen in the strongest sense of the word.

Rounding things out to whole numbers and viewing the laxsupermom plan, my thinking goes :
2' for a counter ,
4' for an aisle ,
that's 6' so far, hmm, but we have double that space, so repeat... .
That's another
2' for a counter ,
4' for an aisle.
AND if this is more or less what we have, why does it look so cramped in the drawing above?

Now, redoing the thought experiment:
26" for a counter,
42" for an aisle,
that's 5'6" so far, hmm, but we have way more than double that space, so why in the world would it appear cramped in any way?

Remember that 42" is deemed an acceptable aisle width by all standards published by associations of professionals in this field.

Now, adding some complexity, let's continue the thought experiment.
What if the central counter were not a rectangle?
What if it had a curve or two or three?
What if it were to stick out into the open area?
What if the part sticking out were to be a Second Level at bar height? It would hide the sink more than any other layout option. It would provide more interesting seating arrangements, for more people.

About "a curve or two or three": it is an option, to make the window-side edge be wavy or bump-out-ey so that anyone who wants to sit at the farthest end has to slip through a "narrow" space, and this leaves seating on the other side for those whose body mass is triple the Fred Astaire size that some people are (and that one might dream of being after slimming down).

Remember that a 24"width door opening is deemed an acceptable width by all standards published by associations of professionals in the field of bathroom design. Once you add a real door onto the frame, the space left is about 22.5" width. That is the width from floor to the top of the frame. BUT in a kitchen with ONLY a counter supposedly blocking your way, there is NO problem at all with having a 22" slipway passageway. It's not a corridor and it's not a hallway. It's an OK space to have to walk past to get to the seat or to get to the two seats against that wall. Simulating it on paper will make it look cramped, because we idealize. With a window on one side, you get an inch or two more elbow room. In my mind the slipway could be less than a 22" space.

Simulating it on paper is easy.
Why would anyone not want to try this out?
Because they reject the ideas before exploring them?

Hth

NKBA Kitchen Planning Guideline 6 - Work Aisle

Recommended:

The width of a work aisle should be at least 42" for one cook and at least 48" for multiple cooks. Measure between
the counter frontage, tall cabinets and/or appliances.

NKBA Kitchen Planning Guideline 7 - Walkway

Recommended:

The width of a walkway should be at least 36".

NKBA Kitchen Planning Guideline 8 - Traffic Clearance at Seating

Recommended:

In a seating area where no traffic passes behind a seated diner allow 32" of clearance from the counter/table edge
to any wall or other obstruction behind the seating area.

a. If traffic passes behind the seated diner, allow at least 36" to edge past.

b. If traffic passes behind the seated diner, allow at least 44" to walk past.

Note: This is not for seats with counters or appliances behind them (e.g., island seating).

NKBA Kitchen Planning Guideline 9 - Seating Clearance

Recommended:

Kitchen seating areas should incorporate at least the following clearances:

a. 30" high tables/counters: Allow a 24" wide x 18" deep counter/table space for each seated diner.

b. 36" high counters: Allow a 24" wide by 15" deep counter space for each seated diner and at least 15" of clear knee space.

c. 42" high counters: Allow a 24" wide by 12" deep counter space for each seated diner and 12" of clear knee space.

Access Standard Recommended:

Kitchen seating areas should be 28" - 34" high x 30" - 36" wide x 19" deep to better accommodate people of various sizes or those using a mobility aid.

Recommended minimum size for a knee space at a table or counter is 36" wide x 27" high x 19" deep.

correction:

NKBA Kitchen Planning Guideline 8 - Traffic Clearance at Seating

Recommended:

In a seating area where no traffic passes behind a seated diner allow 32" of clearance from the counter/table edge
to any wall or other obstruction behind the seating area.

a. If traffic passes behind the seated diner, allow at least 36" to edge past.

b. If traffic passes behind the seated diner, allow at least 44" to walk past.

Note: This is not for seats with counters or appliances behind them (e.g., island seating w/a work counter or appliance behind).

when your builder comes-move the wall between the liv rm and adjacent bedroom over into the bedroom a couple feet. Voila-living room is slightly wider-that area can house a seated dining area of some sort. then the kitchen can be anything you wish-nice big u-shape. My cottage is like this-one big space- like it better than my regular house. facilitates mingling and conversation with people about. Face it-the house is not for a large family where you need clear divisions of everything. A couple, single person, single parent, etc-the open plan would be nice I think

Beuhl, when NKBA says "if traffic passes behind the seated diner", are they talking actual traffic flow? Or just someone trying to get to a seat? So if a table or counter is backed towards a wall, does that mean 32" is sufficient if it is not a walkway, but there are multiple seats?

Thanks!

pricklypearcactus I think it's best to let the NKBA fine points discussion take place outside of this thread which chem_kt opened for her own needs and onto which she has only posted two replies none yet about this question of space for someone to slip past to get to another seat.

let's have an NKBA thread and link to it. Fine points, when to disregard, when to add more inches, etc.

davidro1, I think it looks so cramped because I gave it both a nice sized aisle and a generous overhang, both of which could be reduced slightly. Good point about the window giving it at least the sense of more elbow room.

The NKBA Guidelines do have merit and apply to this thread...in particular when someone states 22" is enough room behind seats. It's not enough and the OP needs to know that here, not in some other thread.

PricklyPearCactus...Yes, that is what it means. No traffic, just enough space to slip past someone as well as enough room to move the chair/stool in/out for sitting down & getting up.

geez, i think pricklypearcactus' question was on topic and related to the layout that laxsupermom posted for the OP.

there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification of what someone else posted!

some of us are here to learn.

I think the NKBA guidelines are valid, but I don't know how much "traffic" there is going to be in a two bedroom house. I would have no philosophical problem with having the seating area and the entry to the hall to the bedrooms overlapping for example. If the occupants of the house are eating, who is left over to go into the bedrooms?, and vice versa. The counter stools could be out in the path in use and have just enough room to tuck away rather than have the seated position allow full access to that hallway.

This is one of those houses (and I live in one myself) that to create the ideal kitchen would mean having a two bedroom kitchen + tiny living area.

Both points of view have validity but this is one of those situations where the NKBA guidelines should be applied with regard to creating a Safe kitchen, not necessarily the Ideal kitchen.

I agree about the seating backing into the hall...but not backing to the windows w/just 22" b/w the counter and window.

As a matter of fact, the seats backing to the hall idea was what prompted my asking about the size of the LR and hallway.

In my mind the slipway could be less than a 22" space.

Simulating it on paper is easy.
Why would anyone not want to try this out?
Because they reject the ideas before exploring them?

how about:

* because a person is overweight
* because a person has long legs
* because a person is very tall
* because a person is claustrophobic
* because the person with the ideas is rude

What about something like this?

{{!gwi}}

This is a concept plan, not drawn to scale. You might be able to expand the rounded bar counter to seat 4 and still have wide enough aisles into the kitchen.

DW is to the left of the sink with a cab between sink and DW so that you can stand at the sink when the DW is open. This gets the DW out of the prep zone between sink and range. You could do shelves above DW but below the window for dishes, etc. Or you could put shelves in front of the window (see link) for more storage.

To work around the window on the range wall, opt for a chimney type hood and have it mounted so that the pipe goes up right next to the window.

This is an asymmetrical lay-out but it gives you ample counter space, less crowded work zones, good storage and an eat-in area. You can install the eat-in counter at table height or counter height. At counter height, it will provide additional counter work space.

If someone pointed this out, I missed it. If you have a French door or side by side fridge, make sure the doors clear the side wall or you won't be able to fully open the fridge. If you go with a fridge with a left hand door swing, no problems. You could use the rounded bar counter as landing space across from a fridge with a left hand door swing. It's a bit far but it might be easier than working around an open door to land items on the counter to the left of the pantry.

Here is a link that might be useful: [shelves in front of window - Houzz[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/cook-modern-kitchen-dc-metro-phvw-vp~67843)

I just want to flag that Herbflavor had an interesting idea, though it's a slightly expensive solution: "when your builder comes-move the wall between the liv rm and adjacent bedroom over into the bedroom a couple feet." If the closet in that adjacent bedroom were moved to the opposite corner of the room, i.e. to the other side of the wall from the laundry area, then you could indeed scoot the wall over a foot or maybe two, and then have enough room in the living room for a dining area. That would get you your U-shaped kitchen AND a nicer dining area than you could get with just a table in the kitchen.

Lisa_a's idea also looks good to me, assuming it works once real measurements are entered. And it's very true what some people have said, that a small house with only two inhabitants does not need a full-sized fridge or DW. Whether it needs a full-sized range depends on how you cook, but it should be no problem for two people in a small house to manage with an 18" DW and a slightly small fridge (say, 27" to 30" wide--I'm not talking a dorm fridge here).

By the way, am I the only one who's confused because the OP said this was "a tiny one-bedroom house," but the plan shows it is a TWO-bedroom house?

Oh, one more detail: when you have a dishwasher, you don't spend nearly as much time at the sink. So having the sink under that nice big window should not be so important. As long as your main prep space is there, that's where you're going to be and the view you're going to have for most of what you do in the kitchen.

I think this would be a good kitchen to fully explore a simple L or truncated U plus a table or counter height table that could be moved, rather than fixed seating.

That way the space becomes a bit more flexible.

When the OP posted the home's layout, she (he?) stated they were adding a 2nd bedroom/den to the house. The original bedroom is only 6'11" by 11'11". herbflavor's suggestion would reduce that to 6'11" by 9'11" with two feet of that given over to closet. That reduces functional bedroom space to 6'11" by 7'11" - that's small to be the only bedroom in the house. I don't think I'd opt to give up bedroom space for table room in the LR - but this isn't my house.

Palimpsest, I like your idea of making that eating area a movable table. I remember seeing something like this in a kitchen designed by a KD on the East Coast but danged if I can remember who right now.

The OP had the eating area as a free standing table in his/her first plan, which still looks like the best fit for the house, IMO (with some tweaking).

Hi everyone! I'm sorry I haven't been able to post - things have been pretty hectic with work and the house. Everything's moving very quickly!

I wanted to thank everyone for their ideas and information, and give you an update. We played around with the idea of a galley kitchen layout for a little while as suggested in some of the posts, but decided to go with a modified version of Plan A where the sink is in the corner of the "L" and the DW underneath the small side window.

We now have plenty of counter space next to the range (thanks for the heads up buehl - I'm pretty new to this stuff and 15" next to the stove would've been tough). I know we lose a little base cabinet storage with the corner sink, but I think it looks better there than being off-center on the side wall. And, I think we should be able to fit our pots and pans in the space.

In terms of the eating area - I don't mind the sitting right next to the hallway (we don't want to be IN the hallway, but next to it is ok - and we should have enough space for that). I think palimpsest made a good point in that there won't be traffic issues when the two occupants of the home are sitting down for dinner.

We still haven't decided on what to do with the seating area yet. We will probably put in a table for 4 (normal or counterheight) as shown in the original Plan A. However, I am also considering a built-in counter with 2 seats facing into the kitchen (and maybe a third at the end of the counter) in case we need more base cabinet storage and counterspace. However, my BH doesn't like this option since it is less intimate dining and less flexible.

Thanks again for all your feedback! I will try to keep you updated as much as possible!