Housekeeping, please comment on elaborate plan for pine floors

15 years ago

And others too!

Here is the deal:

House is 120 years old. 3rd floor converting to office for dh. Need to run radiant heating loops in the floors.

Currently, the floors are: Old wide pine subfloor, then pine boards (lovely!!!), then 1/4 plywood, then linoleum, then 3/8 plywood, then carpet and pad. Hee hee! Just have to laugh.

Plan is to go down to joists, then do: 3/4 plywood, radiant heat loop plywood (not warmboard but something like it), then nail back down the original pine boards and finish them with tung oil. That's it.

Questions:

Any tips to get the original rectangular headed nails out in a way that we can reuse them?

Any tips to minimize splitting the pine boards when we remove them?

How far apart do we nail the boards (I guess it depends on temp and humidity when we do it) to avoid buckling or excessive gapping?

How do we prep the boards before applying the tung oil? Based on what I've read, heaving sanding is out, but there are places where something (I dunno, carpet backing, dirt, whatever) is stuck to them. Sounds like I need to do scraping and cleaning or cleaning and very light hand sanding? Right now, you can really feel the grain of the wood, and I don't want to lose that.

Is there anything else we should be asking/concerned about?

Total area is about 900 sq. ft. About 100 sq.ft. will be converted to a bathroom, so that will yield us some spare boards for overage; good in case we run into trouble somewhere. Also we can use the pine subfloor boards in closets, to increase the amount of regular pine boards available for the more visible areas.

Please tell me this will work!

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Comments (8)

housekeeping
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
SB,

Honestly, I don't want to throw cold water on your plans, but it does sound a bit complicated and destructive just to add some heat.

May I, first, ask a few questions about your project? Do you already have radiant floor heating in the rest of your house? Although I think radiant floor heat is the nuts, it is also one of the most complicated technologies to retrofit to an older structure.

And where are you, geographically? If you add heat to the third floor to make an office, will it be usable in the warmer months or will you have to add A/C, too? Is this in your current attic space?

When you say you have wide board pine flooring as sub floor, it makes me wonder if that is the original finish floor and the next layer up of pine is a later renovation? Is that upper "pine" layer pine flooring or fir strip flooring, which was very common in secondary rooms. How wide is wide?

In general, I have found that doing the least is better than doing the most when dealing with an old house. My own philosophy of old-house owning is that just because I could do something to get what I want doesn't mean that I ought to go ahead. I always try look for solutions that get me most of the way there, with the least loss to the structure. This is both to protect the building and to save me - and my wallet - from unnecessary cost and disruption.

Is your ceiling in the second floor original plaster, or something you might consider opening to access the bottom of the third floor floor?

Pulling up floor boards is very destructive to them, and sometimes impossible if they run under partions or walls.

If you could give me a few more details, then I might be able offer some more useful suggestions.

Molly~
bulldinkie
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
No no we did the same thing we put the radiant heat in looks great,love the radiant heat,you cant even tell,we didnt use tung oil though.And yes we put it in the whole house,if you know what youre doing no problem.Love it I have had different type heat in our homes but the radiant is good the heat is where it belongs dowen where you are.
if you want to email me its ok We have a 1700 farmhouse.
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slateberry
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks bulldinkie, I will get in touch for more details.

Housekeeping, ya think I could answer your questions sooner after such a prompt response from you! I think I dragged my feet because I simply don't know some of the answers.

I just went up to the third floor with a flashlight and measuring tape and poked around for while. Here's what I know:

The top layer of flooring (2 1/2" to 7" x 7/8" pine boards, definitely not fir) does not run under partions or walls, so no problem there. What I am calling the subfloor does. DH plans to cut them off at the walls (they run perpendicular to the joists), then sister some hefty furring strips (as hefty as our structural engineer tells us to) to the joists so there is a place to attach the new subfloor.

"Pulling up floor boards is very destructive to them." Yes that is my main concern. I am looking for tips on how to do this and minimize this issue. It sounds like you were about to suggest pounding out the nails from below? Ripping out the 2nd floor ceilings (oof, they are plaster and lathe covered with a thin layer of wallboard and then texture MOPPED!) is sooo tempting...it would be hell to live through, but it would be funny, and sooo rewarding to get that idiotic mopped pattern out of the house, it is so out of place.

I agree with your philosophy of doing the least in general, but I think in our case, we will be taking the floor back closer to an original finish, and the case for geothermal energy is so compelling to us, it would be hard for us to back away from this project. But, if you look on the kitchens forum you might notice I'm pretty open-minded and really listen to posters (otherwise what would be the point of asking their advice?), so please don't give up on me yet.

The subfloor consists of rough pine boards (the one I can see has an open knot hole), ranging from 7 to 12" wide x ~7/8" thick. You are right it may be an original floor, but I kind of doubt it. OK this is really meandering, but AFTER we signed the P&S, the po was talking about how the third floor was once used as a ballroom, and there was an amazing mahogany parquet floor under the layers of linoleum and plywood, but that the electrician had to make so many holes when he was working up there, there was no point in trying to save it. (can you feel the knife twisting???? I guess most people on this forum have been there!!!) Remember, this was after P&S--the deal and numbers were set--it's not like they had anything to gain from leading us to believe there was some secret hidden value up there. So of course the day we closed we run up there with tools, prying up and cutting through the carpet, plywood, and lino, trying to find this parquet floor. 3 spots we looked to no avail. So, were these people crazy, or is it possible that this special floor was only in one section...I don't know.

So anyway, based on what I've seen, I really think the top layer of pine boards are the original floors, and the wider, rougher pieces under them were subfloor, but we'll keep you updated on that as we learn more. I am hoping to find a way to reuse the subfloor--either as a wall treatment, or else to give them to a company that reclaims old pine, if I can find one that's interested.

We are in the Boston area. The third floor is not currently an attic; the attic is above it. The geothermal system we're putting in will provide both heat and ac, so the space will be usable year-round.

We do not currently have radiant heat. Our plan is to keep the front 2/3 of the first two floors of the house on the original steam system (but we have upgraded to a more efficient boiler). The radiators are lovely, and we don't want to touch the quartersawn oak floors. The back 1/3 of floor 1 and 2, and all of the third, have been extensively remuddled, so we're not too worried (except for the 3rd floor, and hence this post) about losing much in the process of installing radiant heat. We'll also get our hot water supplied by the geo system.

So, that's sort of the bigger picture. If anybody has suggestions/tips on getting up the pine boards in the best possible shape, I'm all ears.
la_koala
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hi slateberry51,

I was intrigued by your post. I'm also in the Boston area in an 1887 Queen Anne, and I've been thinking about how to take up some of the pine boards in my unfinished third floor to attend to the electric wiring to the second floor ceilings.

For Christmas, I asked my dad to give me a nail puller. He found this tool that looks ingenious. I don't know what it is called--it looks pretty old fashioned. It works on a pump-like action where it takes the nail head up enough without damaging the wood so that you can then use a regular puller to extract the rest of the nail. I haven't tried it out yet (too busy dealing with my wallpaper removal!)

I did see a mention of a tool like this in one of the GardenWeb forums. If you can get your hands on one of these tools, it might help you in terms of extracting the nails without damaging the wood.
la_koala
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I did a search of messages here and found the posting that has a photo of the old-fashioned nail puller tool.

See:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/oldhouse/msg081804475852.html

Scroll down and there's a photo that shows the contraption in the right hand side of the photo.

On Amazon, I found one listed as Cooper Group 56 Nail Puller, and there might be other brands.
slateberry
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
la_koala, thanks for the suggestion! That sounds like a vast improvement over a hammer and pry-bar.
slateberry
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Oh wow. We were posting last two posts simultaneously. I just checked the links and looked on amazon. I think you may have just saved our floors! (and probably our sanity too!)
la_koala
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hi slateberry51, I do hope it works out for you! Your last post inspired me to brave our unheated third floor to look more closely at the flooring. :-)

If you get a chance, please post on how it all turns out!

Housekeeping, please comment on elaborate plan for pine floors

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