Looks like a repackaged version of Persil.

At $40 for 48 loads versus $12 for 54 loads of environmentally friendly BI-O-KLEEN powder, I'll stick with the BI-O-KLEEN since it cleans much better than Persil ever did at 1/4 the cost, is gentle enough to use for sensitive skin, and it works equally well with whites and colors.

If you have a mix of whites and colored laundry, do you use the Miele UltraColor or UltraWhite? Oh wait, you're supposed to buy one of each! That's $80 for 96 loads. You can do exactly the same loads with 1.78 boxes of BI-O-KLEEN at a cost of $21.

I did a face-off between Persil and Tide HE a couple of years ago, I even posted photos of the results. Tide HE won by a hair, although they were both pretty equal in terms of cleaning ability. Miele is betting that you'll spend a bundle on their detergents since you also spent a bundle on their equipment. Makes sense, doesn't it?

$40 for a box of laundry detergent. Hello people, have you lost all sense of reason? LOL

This isn't repackaged Persil or indeed a Henkel product, but is made by Krussler (sp?) who also I believe make the Miele dishwasher tablets.

Sshriva - I don't know about you but I never mix whites with coloureds, and it's common practice at least here to use a seperate, biological detergent for whites and a colour care detergent for colours/darks. Doesn't work out in the long run anymore expensive than if you used the same detergent for the same amount of loads, it will all work out at the same cost per wash.

I've used so called "universal" detergents before, with disastrous results hence why I always use separate white and colour detergents. That why my whites are always dazzling white (I actually get complimented on my whites) and my darks are always dark and not faded. Though when I used environmentally friendly detergents I must admit I didn't have much fading, but from the brands offered here at least I didn't have much cleaning either :-).

Jon

I am always trying different products. During the past months I tried several brands of DW detergent, so I am going to try this new Miele stuff just for fun.

I have used ARIEL from the UK and like it, but mostly I use German Persil. I started with that before there were HE detergents in the USA , and it cleans and RINSES very well in my water conditions. I have also tried TIDE He which cleans well but doesnt rinse as well as PERSIL and I like to have a formula for colors and I canÂt find one in the TIDE family. I remember SshrivastavaÂs tests!

I ordered the two powdered products, the dedicates formula, the fabric softener, and the formula for down so will see what happens. The shipment should arrive in the middle of next week.

I use temps of 85F, 104F or 120F for most loads, but my machine can get up to 200F, but I wil continue to use 85F, 104F, or 120F because this is my norm.

Ss  where can I buy BIO-KLEEN? I am not a green person, but I will try that also.

I am curious about this Miele stuff. It is labeled HE which only has meaning in the USA so is this being sold in Europe also and if so is it labeled HE?

Ss
Also which Bio-kleen product are you using?

BI-O-KLEEN Premium Plus powder. It's the one with enzymes. I'm laughing at aquarius' comments. Honestly, I still have no idea why someone would use a different product for whites than they use for colored clothing if one product worked just as well. Why can't you have a single product that can clean while not fading your clothing? I think you can!

Many products like Tide, Persil for whites, and others, have optical brighteners(kind of like old time bluing) which attract light and make items look whiter than perhaps they really are. When these brighteners get on dark fabrics it makes them look faded. Also Persil for whites has oxygen bleach in it and I prefer not to use that on dark colored items. Let me tell you....my washer drains into the sink next to it and there is ALWAYS color transfer from the clothes to the water...I first noticed this with Tide years ago in my top loader. It is especially noticeable in loads that are cotton. It is less of an issue for polyester fabrics, but some cottons let the color come right out. For this reason I separate my colored items from white, and then further separate them by color hue....dark browns and greens, Yellows and tans in a load, dark blue and black in a load..so on. I do the same for lighter colors..keep light blue and green together so on. Having the washer drain into the sink also allows me to check the rinse water as it is being spun out of the clothes during the spin between each rinse, so I can see if the detergent is being wrung out of them. Rinsing is important to me due to problems I had several years ago with detergent rash from regular Tide.

Also I have quite a few cotton items(mostly shirts) that are made so that they fade in every load so I would rather not have them exposed to any kind of bleach or brighteners and you cannot wash them together with other items or the other items get ruined. So I kind of understand what Aquarius is talking about.

You probably can have one product if it doesn't contain OBs and for me I am not keen on bleaching any type of colors.

I ordered Bio-kleen Premium plus powder from drugstore.com and they have sent me a shipment notice already.

Anyway I have ordered all of this laundry detergent now..but of course I haven't signed a contract with any company binding me to use their product for the rest of my life..but well...maybe for the next year and six months :) Now I realize that I have no place to store this..so I will work that out before everything arrives.

I separate my colored items from white items as well, but I still use one detergent for all of it. If there is one detergent that doesn't contain OBAs or harsh chemicals that can be used on both colored and white clothing alike, isn't it preferable to use a single product? I think detergent companies are just trying to make more money by selling you two products when you can get by just as well with one if it were formulated properly.

Just my opinion of course. I think I'm going to market a detergent just for socks, after all don't socks require special detergent care that other products don't provide? Then we'd also need Unmentionables Care. That's at least two more products that detergent companies can sell us. Why stop there?

In the US, now that Miele has followed the market herd and is producing machines with little to no functional differentiation from all the rest of the pack (other than a much higher price and maybe more longevity) they have now unleashed their secret weapon - Miele detergent! Better wear goggles and rubber gloves before you handle that potent stuff :-)

I am curious about it since it says it can clean very well in a water temp of 104F. The Miele DW detergent can do this...so this is one of the things I am curious about.

Sshriva - perhaps you don't understand the detergent market here, but pretty much any detergent here contains bleaches and optical brightening agents. All well and good on whites and light coloureds, however wash your deeper and darker colours with them repeatedly then you will see fading of clothes, hence why the market for colour care detergents here is large.

Generally, biological formulations here contain enzymes, bleach and optical brighteners whereas colour care detergents contain only enzymes. Colour care detergents clean well just with enzymes as the optical brighteners and bleaches for obvious reasons aren't needed, but whites will dull over time without the bleaches found in biological formulations. To comment on sshriva's response, these detergents ARE formulated properly - which has ended up in the biological and colour care categories across European detergents in the first place.

No more money is given to the manufacturer - if you do the same amount of loads you are going to use the same amount of a manufacturer's product whether it's biological or colour detergent. If I wash 20 loads with biological detergent and 20 with colour detergent, in the long run I'm still washing 40 loads with P&G detergent in the same way as I would if I just washed 40 loads with the one detergent.

I agree with you that it would be great if there was one product that would wash both whites and colours, but at least with what's available here that seems to be very rare in a product, and two specialised detergents in my view is the best way forward and it indeed works very well for everybody who does buy the 2 separate detergents.

Of course - that's just from what I find from what is available on the market here, but there's no need to criticise what I think is a pretty logical system when it comes to detergent.

Jerrod - most European detergents here are claiming that they clean at 30*C and they actually do - I wash most of my laundry at 30*C now, have turned down from doing whites at 50/60 to 40*C, and only still wash sheets/towels at 60*C for hygiene purposes.

Jon

Hey Jon

Nice to hear from you. I think here in the USA the P&G detergent TIDE does contain brighteners. I think the CHEER brand does not.

Funny thing about the temps. I used to use temps over 120F or 140F and above for whites, but for the last year I have lowered that so that loads are done in 104F or 120F and everything gets just as clean.

German PERSIL cleans just fine in 104F so I want to see how the Miele product performs. I will also be trying the BIOCLEAN-also at 104F.

The last time I tried to buy UK Ariel they were selling mostly tablets...not to pleased with that as I prefer powder.

Jerrod, I don't mind the tabs actually, that's the format we normally buy, or liquitabs mainly for the ease of use and also for the fact that nobody apart from myself in this house seems to be able to get all of the powder into the dispenser drawer :-). The powders have been reformulated too - the bio one smells different to the formula I remember you trying a couple years ago, plus Ariel have sorted out the rinsing issue nowadays and rinses much more easily before and I can get away with 2 rinses nowadays rather than 3 - good as it saves an extra 10-15 minutes off each cycle :-).

Might catch you on AIM, if you're around.

Jon

Well all of the product..the Miele detergents, FS and the Biokleen arrived today at 5:30pm. Still need to find homes for everything.

I do see that the Miele products are made by Kreussler in Germany. (kreussler.com). Seems like this company made the products that Miele uses in their Wet cleaning system whatever that is--maybe it is used by professional cleaners or something. Anyway that's who makes this their line of Laundry detergents. Not the same folks that make their DW detergent.

I just checked the Miele.com web site and there is a section for the wet cleaning system. It also describes the detergents used in it.... whatever.

jerrod6 any feedback on the Miele Care Collection detergents you've tried? I think everyone considering trying the new product line would be interested in you thoughts.

I've just received a bottle of Miele Care for Delicates. I can't comment on it's cleaning ability, just yet, but I don't like it's very watery consistency. It tends to run out of the liquid detergent dispenser insert on my W1213 before I can close the draw. I normally use Perwoll Classic and it's thicker consistency stays put until the wash cycle flushes the dispenser.

Miele Care For Delicates does have it's pluses. A 1.5L bottle of Miele Care costs about the same as a 750ml bottle of Perwoll and you use about half as much per load (35ml VS 90ml) so it is more economical to use.

Having said that, until Miele boosts up the viscosity of this product, I'm going to stay with the other Miele import, Perwoll Classic. I just don't like having to slam the detergent drawer closed just to avoid having Miele Care run out under the drawer, leaving a mess that will need to be cleaned away later.

I received my shipment of Miele detergent (for whites, colors, delicates, and fabric softener) in mid December and compared it against PERSIL MEGAPERLS (for whites and colors. I have used PERSIL since 2003 when I first purchased my machine, but have tried other brands during this time. As I mentioned in my previous post I looked up the Kreussler Company on the web, which is the maker of this detergent. Kreussler is the private company Miele uses to manufacture their commercial detergents which are sold to laundries under the brand name of Trebon.

Powder Detergent Product Consistency:
Persil consists of small beads. The Miele detergent is similar to fine grain sugar.

Fragrance:
Persil is scented when you sniff the product in the container but does not leave a scent on clothes. The Miele product is described as the smell of flowers and there is a scent when in the container. No scent is left in the clothes and since my washer drains into the sink I have to say that there is no trace of a scent in the discharged water. If anything it smells rather acrid.

Dosage:
I purchased my current boxes of PERSIL in the early spring of 2007. I compared those boxes to my previous box from 2006 and found that the recommended dosage had been increased by 1 ML. This doesnt matter since I ignore recommended dosages, and use amounts I have found to be right for my soil levels and water conditions.
The Miele detergent comes with a cup which does not match the dosage lines on the PERSIL cup and does not match a standard USA cup either. I compared the recommended amounts by following the PERSIL dosage using the PERSIL cup, then pouring that amount into the Miele cup. The Miele recommended amounts for each soil level are slightly less than the PERSIL amounts. The Miele box contains recommended amounts for small and larger washers.
Even though I dont use recommended amounts I found that I could decrease the dosage amount when using the Miele detergent, so I can use slightly less of it for each soil level.

Cleaning in temps of 85F, 104F, and 120F:
I did not do any scientific-like comparisons or do any strip tests. I have the same type of typical or heavy (ground in, body, oily) soil in most loads. I got very good results in warm watereverything was cleaned. I did do a load of white cleaning clothes in warm water instead of hot(190F) and got very good results. Oily dirt was handled well in warm water.

Rinsing:
One reason I use PERSIL MEGAPERLS is because it rinses well in my water. The Miele detergent rinses a bit better. The wash discharge water is milky and contains no suds. During the first rinse water will be clear with slight bubbles on the top. As the spins and rinses continue these dissipate.

Liquid detergent for Delicates:
Persil for Delicates is a creamy thick liquid. The Miele Delicates is like a creamy water. I understand there may be an issue with the W11XX or W12XX dispenser and I guess it is different than the dispenser on my W1986 because it will hold back water.
This consistency is good for me because I have trouble with the thicker products in the winter. I think this is because my incoming cold water is about 40 degrees and it cannot flush thick products as well. With the dispenser I had to add hot water to it to get it to flush. I dont even use the dispenser anymore even with the Miele product. If I am not going to do a prewash I just move the clothes away from one of the fins in the tub, pour the product onto and into the fin, close the door and start the machine - works fine.
Delicates come out clean.

Fabric Softener:
The Consistency is like water and it easily flushes from the dispenser leaving nothing behind. Clothes are left soft. There is no scent that I recognize and I dont smell anything in the clothes hours or days later, although clothes smell clean, fresh and good.

Thanks for a very thorough/unbiased review Jerrod. I was expecting a short "I like brand X better' statement.

The liquid insert on the W1213 does hold back the thinner Miele for Delicates, but it tends to leak by the divider. I think in a situation where a prewash is used, the main detergent would have all leaked out before the main wash would begin. As a comparison, Persil Gels will stay put for hours and can be used with a delay start feature better. I like your suggestion about placing the liquids directly into the washer drum. It's a good compromise.

I'm happy with the Persil powders and I plan to continue using both Megaperls versions, but I'm glad to hear that the Miele equivalent is comparable in performance to Persil.

I plan on ordering some Miele fabric softener next. I currently use Vernel "Day At The Sea," but I dilute it 50/50 with water for better rinsing out of the FS dispenser. If the Miele FS works out, I'll stop adding water.

Have you had a chance to try out the Bi-o-kleen powder plus yet?

Yes I tried out the Bi-o-kleen. It cleans and rinses well. It didn't do as good on heavy soil as the other two BUT.. that was using it against temps of 85F through 120F and at the detergent dosage I normally use for my types of loads. So it may do just as well with a larger dose and hotter water.

It has a citrus scent in the box, but it is not left on the clothes. Many folks like this scent but for some reason I really can't stand that scent. This is true of cleaning products, DW detergent, perfume so on...I just can't stand the scent of citrus.