Hi Mgmarch - your image is too small to work with. Can you enlarge it and then post it again ?

sailormann:

Hope this is better! If not, I am doing something wrong. Can't figure out how to load it as PDF or jpg right on page. When I open the original on my computer it is quite large.

http://s498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/MGMarch_2009/?action=view&current=MGMarchKitchen.jpg

Thanks for looking!

Here is a link that might be useful:

That last link may have been the old one. I will try this:

Here is a link that might be useful:

VERY rough, but did you try a galley?

I think your drawing is skewed a bit, because your squares aren't square, so a little hard to get things to look right.

Thanks, rhome.

Yes, that is actually quite close to my current favorite. I was trying to get a full counter against that top wall with the main clean-up area and just a prep sink in island on the cooktop side. Saw something similar in a magazine. My problem was the depth of the refrigerator cutting into the walkway, but with a pantry along the far wall, there is more room, so this is not a problem. Definitely something to consider as the pantry will provide quite a bit of storage.

Any personal thoughts on the formal dining area on one side and the eat-in area on the other in what otherwise is a wide open space with a kitchen in the middle? Should there be walls/archways between dining area and kitchen?

Sorry about the drawing. It was done in excel and then converted to pdf then jpg. No idea why it looks wacky.

Personally, I like a separation between kitchen and dining room. Maybe a wall with 2 doorways? We have 2 pocket doors into our dining room, so I'm partial to that look. ;-) Or you could do a very wide arch on which the island would be centered...or close. It would be quite open as far as seeing from room to room, but still provide a boundary.

To get the sink on the range wall, you could extend into the dining room, and trade the unused dining room for a cozy sitting area at that end?

I don't like dining rookms myself. If I have one then there is no excuse for not inviting people over for formal dinners. ;) You have a great space to work with.

These are some ideas I had...

{{!gwi}}

Thanks for the design sailormann. A much better version of one I had done earlier. My concern is now I wouldn't have ANY table to eat at! I don't dislike dining rooms that much! I like the couch idea and opening things up to the living room (although there is a bathroom behind the far right section of the existing wall).

Here is my galley idea, which includes opening up the rail section to fully step down to the family room.

I tried to embed the image and it worked, but it was huge! So I will stick with links (sorry).

Here is a link that might be useful:

Can you flip-flop the kitchen and dining room, moving the living room access closer to where the pantry currently is, and closing off the current 6 ft. cased opening to the LR? And if so, could you eliminate the opening to the front entry? Then you could exchange the window in the middle and the single door for french doors to your deck/patio area.

All good thoughts, annie! But there is a hall bathroom behind the pantry, so the wall must stay for about 3 feet there. The front door opens facing a wall that is the opposite side of the bathroom, so perhaps a rerouting of the entry hall from a slight left to a slight right would work. I will look at that. I would really love to have french doors back there to the deck. Thanks!

Another thing I see in Sailormann's is that you lose all the windows. How about a happy medium between/combo of Sailormann's and mine with table space at whichever end you prefer?

A kind of variant of sailorman and rhome.

Plus add window(s) on west side and also near dining tbl - like have a buffet with a window over instead of the hutch.

{{!gwi}}

Oooh! I really like bmore's plan. Most of the traffic would be through the big new doorway, but the little doorway to the living room would keep things from bottlenecking and the cook could still poke there head into the LR w/ just 1 step for a "stop picking on your brother." Looks like tons of storage in the giant penninsula w/ frig & pantry on the peripheral and you keep the cozy couch. Great job, bmore!

Wow! Thanks, bmore! That is one look I had not tried and I love it. Here is my take on it.

I would like to have a double door and a wide window above the sink. As it is, I will be getting tons more storage than I am used to, so I am not too worried about that. What I really like is it brings two dead areas of the house back into the mix (the old dining room and the living room). I also want to open up the railed area into a step down to the family room because that is where most of the action is in our house.

Any more comments, please post them! This is going to our designers soon.

Thanks to all for your input. I am amazed that complete strangers are willing to spend their time to help others realize their dreams. Kudos to you all!

Here is a link that might be useful: {{!gwi}}

I think your final version of BMore's plan is excellent ! It has a good traffic flow and seems to incorporate all of the elements you were hoping for.

rhome410: I hope that the first sentence of my post didn't sound contrary. I was responding to mgmarch's comment that she didn't use her dining room. I got very engrossed in the plan and then read the other posts after I had submitted mine. I apologise if it seemed rude or abrasive.

Sailormann, I went back and tried to find what you'd said that could possibly sound contrary, rude, or abrasive and I couldn't find it! :-) I didn't take anything you said that way at all! Did I sound like I did? I understand, though...It's hard to know how we end up sounding in writing, and I've had people get really upset about something I said that I didn't mean in the way it was perceived. I get very nervous about the way I sound sometimes, which is why I can get really sappy about explaining and apologizing for any negative sounding comments.

rhome - you didn't sound offended at all but when I started reading the threads I thought 'Oh gosh - here I am posting about how I wasn't a big fan of dining rooms just after Rhome was talking about how much she liked the look of hers.' I wasn't referring to your message at all, and hoped that you would understand that. It's hard with email becuase we lose the facial expressions that form so much of our communication process.

Anyway - glad that I was not misconstrued. Thanks for replying. :)

OK, so my wife now is concerned about the dining room area being too big and not formal/separate enough. (I know, I know: This whole thing started with getting rid of the cramped old DR!) Anyway, I am re-posting the link to the galley plan and asking for opinions on the pros/cons versus the "bmore" plan. I can go either way, but I think the galley version will be quite a bit cheaper to build.

Thanks, again, for everyone's help!

Here is a link that might be useful: {{!gwi}}

mgm -

I'm personally a big fan of opening or getting rid of DR's - we kept ours during kitchen gut & now utilize it almost every night. Also, the market here (Ct) would give you a serious ding if one were to get rid of a formal DR. Most of the homes are early 1900's - to me, they somehow loose character if they are opened up.
The other big issue about opening up DR is the increased noise it creates - what yr was your home built? is it drywall or plaster - another big issue

Your gut seems to be set on keeping the DR but you don't have the right plan yet. Persevere - you will find the plan you love - Time spent in this stage is the reason for the reno - the most critical part.

I'm not good at doing mock up - better at giving advice once I see a plan - so sorry I can't help there.

I'm wondering if you can somehow loose the kitchen table idea - have pennisula or other type seating & utilize the DR for sit down meals - I had 1 opening from kitchen to DR - we created another 30" casement opening (fr. breakfast area) which has made a difference. It sort now has made that area more accessible, inviting, easy to use -
Keep your vision in mind - stay on target you will get there
Good luck

In this new galley it looks like you have an undercounter oven next to the prep sink. Is that right? The person working there would be bumping butts with the main cook working at the range and that would eliminate the island as a prep space for the main cook, giving them very little space to work. Ignore these thoughts if I'm not reading that right.

How about working from rhome's galley (which I really like) move the main sink and DW over to the railing area, expand or move the island with an overhang toward the main sink. Enough for a couple of stools. Get rid of the small table, and use the dining room for all meals. It can become a little less formal, but used much more often.

I don't think you'll be happy with the galley design for a bunch of reasons. This is what I think about the idea you drew - pls forgive direct speech. I was never very good at politically correct.

It is much harder to put a kitchen in the family room side of the house because of the four entrances. And 13 feet is not quite enough width for an island in the orientation you're showing. A 24" deep island is really around 27-28" by the time the backing is applied and the counter top put on. In the same way, the side cabinet runs are really 25-26" deep. So the math is: 156 inches minus 50" (both sides), minus 28" (middle), divided by 2 aisles gives you two 38-39" aisles. That's before deducting for the ref and range - which normally stick out another two to six inches. The northern aisle is blocked quite well by an open dw and the favor is returned at the ref on the southern side.

My first impression - the seating won't work. The chairs block the entrance to the room, both aisles and for good measure, the back door. Stools need a minimum of about 32" beyond the edge of the overhang. To have a walk by passage behind a seated person is a minimum of 44". To walk by a seated person carrying laundry or groceries or a turkey or some such is about 48". The northern and southern seats are the problem.

Second impression is kinda complicated, but here goes, how would you serve up a simple grilled cheese? All of the plates, glasses, etc are a trip around the island. Putting away washed pots and prep stuff is also a trip around the island.

If someone wants something out of the ref, they have to cross the range area.

It's a bit more dicey having thin aisles with a range than a cooktop because you need enough room to get stuff out of the range when the oven door is open.

From watching everyone's comments in the past, its personal choice as to whether you'll like using a narrow island. Personally, I'd be ripping it out - because it would always be in my way and I'd splash water all over the floor.

So adding a picture to a thousand words, the red line is a beer run from the family room, the blue lines are paths that should be open and easy.
{{!gwi}}

This is a variant of an "L". I'm hoping others will also contribute, cause its not a good solution either.

{{!gwi}}

bmore - you and I think a lot alike. I have been telling my wife that the space is about a foot short of wide enough to pull off the galley. I also had an ill-defined sense that the kitchen was disjointed this way, which you eloquently pinned sown with your grilled cheese example.

Some random thoughts that have come to mind regarding the placement of the "dining room" while reading everyone's thoughtful posts.

Is it crazy to make people walk through your kitchen to get to your dining room? That is my current awkward setup, unless you make them walk all the way back to the front door, through the LR and into the DR. This is what makes that part of the house a dead zone in my opinion. The galley kitchen at least opened the DR up so it wasn't so cut off, but an L makes it cut off again, unless we do a half wall, which then costs me much-needed storage space.

If I flip-flop the kitchen and DR, is it crazy to put a DR table essentially in front of the back door? I was thinking that there is enough room there to pull it off and have it look impressive. But am I kidding myself? Right now we do have a clear path to the back door because it is a small kitchen table; it's not much of a path, but it exists.

I guess I'm hoping for someone to tell me my take on bmore's original plan is perfect! Any takers?

laxsupermom - that is a microwave. I was planning to have the oven either under a gas cooktop (possible?) or have a range.

mom2 - I have a version like rhome's, which might just take care of the width issue, but I think it is woefully short on storage. Very little overhead storage, but maybe I should take a closer look. Thanks.

I think the placement of the kitchen is good. If it were my house and I wanted to expand the kitchen and open up the dining room, I would put in an archway/wide opening to the dining room and eliminate the breakfast eating area. A couple of stools can go on the island for a quick bite or someone hanging out, but I would try to eat all meals in the dining room. The kitchen in it's current location is close to the family room, dining room and backyard all of which need easy access to the kitchen. If the kitchen is in the corner then you would have to walk through the dining room from the family room or outside to get to the kitchen. Not a big deal, but if the chairs are not pulled in it could require a bit of manuvering.

Also in evaluating storage requirements, plates and glasses can go in drawers. So a big island with little uppers can still give lots of storage if thought of properly. And a full height 18" deep pantry along that back wall would store a ton.

For more storage on my plan: If you decide you don't mind going into the dining room a bit more, you could add a tall storage cabinet at the end of the stove run, creating symmetry with the fridge, to make up for the absence of uppers. You could also add more shallow pantry cabs to match the length of that stove run.

I think a major factor is how you want to use the dining room -- formally and infrequently, in which case it should be more separated from the kitchen -- or more informal and frequent or even daily.

Ialso have a question about the living room -- does it run the entire length on the other side of that wall from the dining room down to what appears to be a front entry hall? Do you use that space, or is the family room the area that gets the most use? How much need do you have for 2 living areas?

lascatx:

The LR gets little use. Ditto the DR. That is part of the reason I was seeking a way to bring them into the flow of the house. Maybe it is a lost cause.

If the DR remains separated from the rest of the house as is now, it will continue to not be used. If it can be opened up while still retaining the "feel" of a separate area, I believe we will use it more. That is why I like the idea of swapping it with the kitchen area. I feel like it will become a useful part of the house. I just don't want to create something that everyone else looks at and thinks it makes no sense.

As for your other question, the LR does not run the full length. There is a bathroom that is between the LR and the entry hall. In drawings where you see two entry ways fairly close together from LR and front, they are on opposite sides of the bathroom (which is the width of the existing pantry). The current LR entryway to DR is at the far wall, away from the bathroom.

I'm with mom2lilenj, in the sense of trying to decide if you want a "formal" separate DR, or just a NICE large dining area. If the latter, I would ditch a separate breakfast table. One big flaw in so many breakfast areas in eat-in kitchens is that they aren't big enough for comfort, and yet take up a lot of space, but the DR is not fun or accessible. So you could look at photos of rooms in which there is a large space for dining open to the kitchen--room for a full size table + leaves and room around it, not crammed onto a wall--I love the farmhouse table look, for example--and no breakfast nook, but maybe 2 barstools as noted above. Then your family would eat regular meals there plus you would serve your guests there (like 6-8 people, unless you're Martha Stewart). Your style would be informal, but with a nice table and room for seating.

Have you read the Not So Big House book? It really emphasizes designs that lead you to use all parts of your home on a regular basis--sounds like what you're trying to do. Minimize space and $$ spent on zones or types of activities you will use only once a year, and organize around your most common functions, then improvise for unusual functions.

Anyway, under that approach you would keep tweaking to make the space really hum for your day in and day out stuff--groceries, snacks, normal meals, and so forth.

Once you have thought about everyday family needs, then from an entertaining standpoint, sometimes I find it useful to almost decide, what kind of meal or gathering do I most like to DO and am I most likely TO do, and then what other features of my kitchen and dining arrangement would help that--what layout, storage, table set-up, etc goes with that? If it's hamburgers on the deck in summer, plan around that and let someone else serve the creme brulee. If it's pasta and salad and bottles of wine with a few friends, think how to make that happen (of course you are not limited to one choice, but you get the point).

How about moving the formal dining to the living room space that is never used? Then you open a whole slew of possibilities for your kitchen space, including adding informal seating as well as family dining.

I'm sorry that I can't figure out how to edit the floorplan, but I'll try to explain an idea of mine. You sound reluctant to ditch the seperate dining space. First I would do a 4 ft wide cased opening from the DR to kitchen, approx. starting 3 ft down from LR wall. In the kitchen on the pantry wall, what about built in storage, approximately 9 ft in length ( pantry, serving area, display, beverage center with MW or whatever you like). On the bottom wall, about where the kitchen window is now, place the exterior door. To the left have a closet, about 4-5 ft long that backs up to the DR and opens to the right. To the right of the new exterior door ( on the bottom exterior wall) place the refrigerator and run cabinets to the corner, possibly placing the range in this run. In that alcove/railing area place a run of lower cabs for the sink and dishwasher to overlook the family room. I think there would be room for an island ( maybe a unique shape) that could possibly have room for 2-3 stools (or the range could be here). Does any of this make sense? I've drawn it out on paper but don't know how to get it here for you. Can anyone help?

{{!gwi}}
This, too, is uncheap because of the windows. You don't need them but definitely the slider and not french doors.

Sorry I did not respond earlier, but I went out of town for several days.

busyb: I had thought of that. Two things concern me: having a dining room in the front of the house with a big bay window. Seems a little odd to me. Also, what's worse: no dining room or no living room? I really don't know. Any thoughts? Also, the LR currently is home to our upright piano. Admittedly, it is for my daughter who is at college, so it does not get a lot of use.

annie/bmore: We had thought of something like this, but not with the sink/DW in that location as it is right next to the family room and TV. The noise would concern me. As an alternate, I thought of putting that workstation on the top wall, but that would make things a little cramped like our existing setup with an open DW interfering with the cooking station.

I'm going to noodle over these ideas and see what I come up with.

As always, thanks for the kind contributions!

OK, I am finally back with our two final options. One is a peninsula, one an L with an island. After fighting the L shape all the way, I am now leaning this way, in part because of cost, but also the look is growing on me. It especially helps with the goal of bringing the DR and LR space back into the flow of the house. In the L-shape, the small brown box near the entryways is a small pantry-type cabinet that will serve as our long-needed coat "closet." It is not shown in the peninsula, but probably could it in the same place. It disrupts the clean line along that side, but I have given up on trying to find some other place for it. The dashed line in the L-shape is a wall that could be removed to open up the living room.

What are opinions of the cooktop or range in the corner?

We are getting prices on these, so I would appreciate any more thoughts in the meantime!

Thanks to all for your help.

{{!gwi}}

{{!gwi}}

Here is a link that might be useful: All drawings here

I don't like the uber "U". Its personal taste, tho. Spaces like that can make people feel protected or trapped...

Just a couple of things to think about in the "L" ...

A 36" cooking surface in the corner needs about 50" on both walls. With a corner range, you get door conflicts with the cabinets on each side and the oven doors.

The reason for moving the stove/range out of the corner is so the chef can be at least edge-on to the people in the kitchen, dining and/or living room. Using that particular corner guarantees the chef is cutoff from everyone.

You could easily make the left side of the "L" 30" deep. You're drawing a normal depth ref and the 30" counter would help it blend in. This can be done by framing out a short wall-let and attaching cabs to the wall-let and then adding the countertop over both the cabs and the wall-let.

Some people go nutz seeing the ref from the front door. This comment is my hat-tip to resale value.

Is there some reason why you can't take the railings out and make the bump a closet? Or a combo closet and display shelves?

Are you open to taking the L layout but flipping appliances around? Could you do the frig on the end of the run closest to the table at the bottom of the L. Put the range on the the side like you have it in the U. You'd be right across from the prep sink and the frig would be closer to the MW... easy access snack center!

bmore: As always, great thoughts. I can easily shift the range to the middle of the left wall. Then I could shift the refrigerator to the end of the bottom wall to take it out of line of sight of front door (great point!). Make sense?

I like the idea of the deeper counters to offset the look of the fridge. I would love go with a counter-depth, but they all seem to be very pricey.

"Is there some reason why you can't take the railings out and make the bump a closet? Or a combo closet and display shelves?" - I don't understand what you are referring to here. Are you talking about the area on the right hand side? If so, that area is open to the family room and I would not want to block that off at all.

Thanks!

remodelfla: You are faster than I am! Too funny!

{{!gwi}}

Bumping for a final stab at comments.

So are we now addressing the layout you posted on Feb 22nd?

My thought on that one is that you have zones set up, but the fridge isn't in the one it needs to be. I know there is the issue with the dining space access to it and with the living room view...But you have a nice clean up area, and a nice cooking area, and you will carry prep items a long way from fridge to prep sink, and running from stove to fridge to grab something will mean crossing through and past anyone working on cleanup, table setting, etc. For me, the cook's priorities are top.

Hmmm, your last layout is very similar to mine, except I added a pantry wall behind the island seating and reversed the positions of the stove and fridge. I did this mostly for aesthetic reasons, as I didn't want to be looking at the fridge from my living room. I also liked having the wider aisle to accommodate the fridge doors on the end of the island. I would prefer that my main aisle were even narrower than it is.

I have to say, that for the most part, this layout functions like a dream for me. That said, we are mostly a one-cook family, and DH is good at staying out of my way until I let him in to clean up. He helps with prep, but that hasn't been a problem for us. Rhome's comments about traffic being a problem would be an issue in a family where more people are participating in food prep, cooking, and clean up.

Here's mine, which is almost an upside down view of yours.

rhome:
Yes, the Feb. 22 version is the one being worked up. The little yellow band is the current opening to the LR, which will be widened to 11 feet (almost to the little brown closet). Also we will probably shorten the island from the current 8 feet to about 6.5.

I had not really thought of things the way you describe, probably because I never have used a prep sink. I wasn't really planning on using this one much - that was my wife's idea, I figured I would use the main sink. Perhaps my tune would change if I had the option, but the concept of a separate prep and clean-up area is foreign to me. Would swapping the prep sink and the microwave make more sense? The only alternative is moving the fridge down and putting the window on the other side of it, but that leaves no light coming in that corner and a big window next to a really big door. As for running into people helping cook or doing cleanup: does that *really* happen in other peoples' kitchens? I should have such problems!!

holli:
Thanks for the plan and comments. I wish I had the extra width to have a pantry on the one side. I am still debating the small closet we have in that space. We may put that in the adjoining living room to keep a clean line along that wall/sightline. Your distances between prep fridge and stove are similar; do you find them problematic? Also: Does the dining area serve as your dining room? If so, how is that working out for you?

Thanks, all!

If I had it to do over, I would make the distance between the island and stove a few inches smaller (countertop to countertop). I think 39" or 40" would be perfect. This only bothers me when I am prepping and wish I could pivot to add things to a pot on the stove, rather than turning and stepping.

The distance at the fridge end is fine. I can stand at the fridge and unload things onto the island fairly easily. Same with putting away groceries.

Yes, the dining area serves as our every day dining room. We have a somewhat more formal dining area in our sunroom. To remodel this kitchen, we removed a wall, and our current kitchen table sits where our dining room table used to. We never sat at the dining room table, except for when we had company. I had an area in my large, L-shaped sunroom that was never really used, and it fit my dining table perfectly. So, we put the furniture we never used in the space we never used, and it has worked out well. That has become our "formal" dining room. So far, I have only used it at Thanksgiving, but it worked out great then. In the meantime, that space looks better with furniture in it.

Since the remodel, when we have had guests, we have usually eaten at the kitchen table, or with larger groups, served up on the island and then dispersed into the living room and sunroom to eat.

Since a prep sink is, in my frame of reference, for washing and trimming veggies, filling and emptying pots of water, and other things pertaining to cooking at the stove...all without having to work over and around any dirty dishes, I wouldn't favor trading it with the microwave. Other people have them for different uses (beverage making, etc.), so other locations can be possible in those cases.

rhome:

I have been looking at the Frigidaire twins and/or Electrolux twins (though those are quite pricey). I see you have the Electrolux, but have them tucked out of the main kitchen area. Do you think the scale of those units would overwhelm my space? Or should I embrace them as a centerpiece. Others have posted of favorable impressions.

I would have to keep it pretty much where I have the fridge drawn in now. If I swap with stove, that huge unit visible from front door (which someone - maybe you) said is usually a no-no.

holli:
You mentioned not wanting to see fridge from living room. My latest plan calls for a huge opening between the two rooms to make it more part of the house. Now it is mainly used by the dog to stare out the front window. Any thoughts on my approach?

TIA

It wasn't me who said it was a no-no to see the fridge from the front door...I think that's a personal preference. If you're going to see any kitchen appliance from the front door, I'm not sure it makes a difference which it is. I'm actually a 'closed kitchen' person...

The set can certainly be a focal point. Have you seen Monkeyjac's kitchen? (linked below) They let their fridge and freezer set stand proud and certainly out for all to see. :-) Mine is off to the side, because that's where I had room and it worked. I had planned 2 refrigerator freezers with a freezer elsewhere, but when I saw the Electrolux set, I sacrificed my desk area and put the set in there instead.

Here is a link that might be useful: monkeyjac's kitchen photos