Is Citrate/Citric Acid as good as Phosphates for water softening?
amsunshine
13 years ago
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suburbanmd
13 years agoamsunshine
13 years agoRelated Discussions
Yes or No to Easy Water (no-salt) water softener?
Comments (40)I'd love to believe that these no-salt water softeners work as it is a chore to lug salt to the water softener but none of them have an understandable scientific basis with solid controlled experimental evidence to support it. While conventional water softeners work on a clearly understood and easily confirmed chemical process. When we move to our present home, it was clear our water had unacceptable levels of calcium in it. We're on a neighborhood well and well water in many regions has this problem. We have both a front loading washer as well as a continuous melting ice maker. Both had problems with our water immediately. Continuous melt ice makers don't tolerate scale at all. The deposits on the freezing plate interfere with the sheets sliding off and cause the unit to jam up. I was having to clean the freezing plate on ours monthly. Front load washers also have all sorts of problems with hard water. The soap forms scum deposits which quickly become smelly. I was running two packs of washing machine cleaner through ours every month to try to combat this. Plus I had the usual scale on the dishes and bath fixtures, plus the soap scum buildup in the showers. I installed a basic Whirlpool water softener from Lowes and this immediately solved all our problems. I clean the ice maker about once a year which was the same frequency I had done it in our previous house on city water. And occasionally I run a washer cycle with washing machine cleaner but no longer does our washer continuously get smelly. This is also a good place to point out that the science behind calcium removal using resins with salt or potassium salt is the same across all brands. I won't argue that $3,000 water softeners have a lot of extra features that you will not find in a $400 Whirlpool one. BUT the way the remove calcium is exactly the same. They ALL use an ion exchange resin that substitutes sodium for the calcium. Periodically the resin is flushed with super saturated salt water to unbind the calcium, dispose of it, and replace it with more sodium for a new cycle. Note, it is a myth that water softeners add salt to your water, they add sodium, not salt. For those that are concerned with sodium intake, for a little more money, potassium chloride can be used instead of regular salt in just about any resin based water softener. As a plus with potassium, those with gray water systems can have a water softener and still use the waste water on plants and the lawn....See MoreWater Softener Recommendation
Comments (5)General iron removal information: Softener: A softener with specialty resin is capable of removing dissolved iron, up to 7 ppm (mg/L) but asking a softener to remove iron at those upper limits is really pushing it so I do not recommend this method. In addition, a softener will become fouled with particulate iron. A softener will not remove sulfur compounds. Oxidation/Filtration: An oxidizer such as ozone, air, or chlorine may be used to react with the iron and force it to become particulate iron that can then be removed via filtration. This will also remove most sulfur compounds. A typical setup would involve the oxidizing unit, a holding tank, then a media filter. This type of system works quite well, but takes some expertise in sizing - you would want a water treatment pro that you trust to help you with this option. Oxidizing filtration media: This type of treatment consists of a sealed tank filled with one of several media. Water passes through and is oxidized and filtered by the media. Most will remove sulfur compounds as well as iron. These are relatively easy to operate and what I would recommend for the average homeowner. There are several different media that can be used: Manganese greensand: water runs through for treatment. The media must be regenerated with potassium permanganate. Care must be taken with dealing with potassium permanganate as it readily dies organic material, such as your skin, a purple-brown color. Some people are quite comfortable dealing with the chemical; others are not. Synthetic greensand: This is essentially the same as option (1) but consists of a coating of greensand on a silica sand core so does not require as much backwash flow. Service flow rate is 2 - 5 gpm/sqft. Backwash flow rate is 12 gpm/sqft. Birm: This media acts as a catalyst to force oxidation of iron. While it does not need to be regenerated, it does need fairly high dissolved oxygen in the water. If your water does not have adequate dissolved oxygen (and it probably doesn't since it is well water), air injection would be necessary prior to the birm. Additionally, birm requires a minimum pH of 6.8. Service flow rate is 3.5 - 5.0 gpm per sqft. Backwash flow rate is 11 - 20 gpm, depending upon water temperatures and desired bed expansion. Pyrolox: an ore that oxidizes then filters the iron out. It does not need regeneration, but needs to be backwashed (to rinse out the iron) at a high rate. pH range is 6.5 - 9.0. This type of filter works very well, but backwash is critical. Service flow rate is 5 gpm/sqft. Backwash is 25-30 gpm/sqft. Backwash daily. Terminox: Similar to Pyrolox, but a proprietary formula . It does not require as much backwash flow rate and is more resistance to a low pH. The particulars are only available from the company that sells it - this means you have to rely entirely on the vendor for proper sizing. Backwash daily. Filox: Also similar to Pyrolox. pH range 5.0 - 9.0. Backwash flow 12-15 gpm/sqft. Service flow 6 gpm/sqft. It must be backwashed daily. Pro-OX: Essentially the same as the previous three. Requires 12-15 gpm/sqft backwash. As with Terminox, specs are lacking information so you'll have no way of knowing if the unit you get is sized appropriately. Katalox-light: Similar in action to the previous four, but is comprised of zeolite, manganese dioxide and hydrated lime. It should be designed for 6 - 12 gpm/sqft service flow and 8 - 10 gpm/sqft backwash. For well water, it's a good option as it requires lower backwash. In all cases, media ought to be replace somewhere between 5 - 10 years. If any vendor tells you their media lasts forever, walk away - they aren't trustworthy....See MoreCitric Acid - Safe or Not
Comments (3)Thx SMD. Now did you feel guilty paying the Miele tax for a box of citric acid ;-) I'll be off at the Chemistry store. All this jibbering and yabbering about DW soap. I do need to stock up some more on CA and buy some new phosphate.. The juice bottles in which I've been keeping my Sodium Percarb ( I think I bought the big bag 5 - years ago), and I rebottled them all in used 1/2 gallon juice jugs, I swear to this very day is still outgassing. It swells the bottles up. Every once in awhile if I'm reaching in the cabinet to get something, I will open the cap to let it whoose...as the air outgasses. 6-8 months later, it's once again full of air, waiting to outgas.. The point I'm trying to say, is a little goes a long way, and I'd rather buy in smaller batches these days just to know the rotation is fresh......See MoreAnyone Use Citric Acid & Oxi To Clean Washer?
Comments (12)My thoughts ... 1) A couple/three more gallons of water can be added to insure the fill level is above the scum-level so the cleaning solution reaches it. 2) His comment about older machines having faster cycles ... the timer was set a 6 mins wash time when he starts the machine (at 6:06 in the video) ... which is less than half the maximum available time of 14 mins. 3) It's highly unlikely that degree of residue (including what's on the exterior/bottom of the spin basket) will fully remove, even on multiple treatments, without disassembly for direct scrubbing ... as he did at the end. Do that immediately and be done with the job, then enact preventative measures to avoid recurrence. 4) Regards to "soap scum," modern laundry detergents are a very different substance than soaps of yore. Soaps react with hard water to create scum, thus the need for water softener products (Calgon, anyone?) in the past. Use of soap is rare nowadays vs. synthetic detergent. Detergents (when dosed properly) have ingredients to handle the mineral content of hard water without creating "scum." The residue is an accumulation of laundry soils that didn't sequester into the wash water for flushing away....See MorePat z6 MI
13 years agoamsunshine
13 years agosshrivastava
13 years agoamsunshine
13 years agoPat z6 MI
13 years agoamsunshine
13 years agoamsunshine
13 years agosshrivastava
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13 years agoPat z6 MI
13 years agoamsunshine
13 years agoamsunshine
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13 years agoandersons21
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