(Dryers aren't rated Energy Star)

non- Energy Star on the SQ Washer just means that it uses more water and/or more electricty
(that may be good for cleaning)

My old TL washer used about 2 cents/load of electricity and my new FL uses about 10 cents (with heater).

Any TL will use more water than a FL.

Maybe about 50 gal. compared to about 15 gal. per load.

Unless your water cost is high where you live, don't worry about it.

Here in Milwaukee, WI. water costs about 3gal = 1 cent.
(TL = 17 cents compared to FL = 5 cents)

Unless you're buying bottled water at a ending machine you won't save enough to offset the higher cost. The issue is whether you like the features and performance of one over the other. Don't forget to factor in the cost difference if you buy a higher priced FL against a lower priced TL.

I've always felt that the biggest advantage to FL washers wasn't so much any fancy EnergyStar electricity ratings but the fact that they use dramatically less water for better (or at least the same) cleaning power as their TL counterparts, while (some would say arguably) being easier on your clothes. Their water usage may or may not be a factor where you live based on local restrictions, etc.

If you're considering SQ any reason you're not looking at one of their basic FL models? Those are ES rated if that's still important to you and their water usage is much less (13 gallons vs. 40+ IIRC.)

HE washers generally have higher spin speeds, thus better water extraction and faster drying times. The dryer energy saving can be significant, and isn't reflected in the washer's yellow EnergyStar label.

Note that water extraction force depends on both the (square of the) RPM's and the drum diameter. If I'm not mistaken, TL washer tubs tend to be deep and narrow (smaller diameter), while FL drums are shallower and wider (larger diameter). So for a given RPM, the FL is going to generate more water extraction force, proportional to the ratio of the diameters.

Since mysteryclock brought up FL being easier on your clothes, let me add that this also translates to less lint, which means the dryer vent doesn't clog as fast.

regus patoff, how much electricty does your FL use for a typical, non-sanitary load, where the heater isn't activated continuously?

Maybe everyone's experience isn't the same as yours?

CuriousShopper, how fast of a spin speed would you consider to be too fast? What would be a "safe" speed that doesn't result in excess wrinkles?

Dear Curious - I don't think some FL owners pretend the problem of creased clothing with high spin speeds doesn't exist...I think that maybe they don't have your problem.

I spin almost all loads on 1000 RPMs...jeans, sport shirts, bed linens, etc. Clothes come out of the dryer perfect with no wrinkles or creases...even jeans. In fact, jeans especially come out in noticably better shape than they did when we used an agitator washer. Not sure why and sorry, I don't have an answer to your problem...but my experience is the opposite of yours...and I'm not pretending. :-)

Here's why you shouldn't use an insanely fast spin

Here is a link that might be useful: Ultracentrifuge Explosion Damages Laboratory

I think the point that richierich53 mentions is not often discussed. I have noticed that some FL washer wrinkle more than others.

My 6 year old Kenmore HE3t is pretty good at NOT creating wrinkly clothes.

I spin everything but light, perm press items at my washer's top speed, 1200RPM, and don't have a problem with wrinkles. I believe it has something to with with the fact that my washer has a stepped final spin. It wrings out a little bit of water and then fluffs and redistributes the load 2 or 3 times, spinning a bit faster each time (depending on cycle and how heavy the load is) before going into the high speed spin. As a result, I have minimal wrinkles, even on jeans, which I just shake and hang on a line to dry.

My friend's LG washer doesn't go though the same spin and fluff procedure before the final high speed spin, and as a result has more problems with wrinkling.

Unfortunately, I there is no way to know without observing a particular brand or model line in action to know just how the spin process works.

Joe

That's a very interesting observation. Prior to its final spin, my Miele does a couple of pulse spins, interspersed with redistribution. The final spin itself is stepped, with no intervening redistribution, but I assume that's to remove water and improve the balance, before going to the higher speeds and G-forces. I spin most everything at 1400 RPM and wrinkles aren't a problem. We don't have much in the way of perm press items.

Someone on automaticwasher.org says the pulse spins are intended to avoid overwhelming the drain pump when the final spin starts. I think I like your explanation better, since it does the pulse spins even on a very small load, where there's not enough absorbed water to worry about overwhelming the pump.

Then you've got to wonder why LG doesn't do "spin and fluff". Hard to believe their engineers don't know about it, and it doesn't seem to have any Energy Star implications. Maybe they don't want to add the extra few minutes to the cycle time.

When we got our TL Fisher & Paykel GWL10 Ecosmart in 2001, it was America's "Most Energy Efficient Washer" according to Consortium of Energy Efficiency (C2 Level) 12/99. So don't lump all TL into the same "uses 40-gallons of water" category. FL were NOT all the rage just yet, they were just getting a foothold in the market back then (not that they hadn't been available, just not big in the market).

The F & P passed independent tests by Interteck Testing also gave it "Best Soil Removal" rating. My experience would concure - it cleans very well (I use Charlie's Soap).

The F & P has a 1000-rpm spin that I DON'T use because it sets wrinkles, as suburbanmd pointed out. The fast spin is great if you are drying clothes in a dryer, but NOT so good if you line dry like I do. Some kind soul mentioned on this message board many years ago, to leave your clothes wetter if you line dry and use a slower spin cycle. So I gave it a try and they were "spot on" with that suggestion.

An advantage to a slower spin cycle (our F&P has a Spin Hold cycle for hand washables or to line dry), the wetter clothes actually dry with hardly any wrinkles in them. Gravity is your friend when you line dry clothes that are a little on the wet-side, by gently tugging wrinkles out of the clothes. So you get best results with clothes that have not been spun into a wrinkled mess to begin with.

I also agree with cynic about the difference in water use not being that great. I conserve LOTS more water by being able to do dishes and after meal clean-up (3 meals a day) using ONE-gallon of water per meal, rather than the normal 5-7-gallons using the traditional 2 sinks full of water, or 4-gallons of water using a dishwasher - than I GUZZLE using a TL washing machine doing 6-loads of laundry per week. Ecosmart average water consumption is 26-gallons and has a preciese auto water level sensing - FL use up to 24-gallons (from what I read on-line).

Not to mention, F & P machines have increased reliabilty with fewer moving parts: no belts, pulleys, gears, transmission or clutches.

-Grainlady

No, I'm one of those who doesn't get excessive wrinkles from high-speed spin. I just confirmed with my wife that her line-dry and lay-flat-to-dry clothes are also fine when spun at 1400 RPM.

I don't get wrinkles from high-speed spin either.

kd portland,
Other than the F&P topload, all toploaders use much more water. It's the hot water quantity that has the highest negative impact on the energy star rating. Remember when a machine had hot water rinse (H/H on the selector)? Not any more, thanks to the energy rating requirements.

If energy rating is a priority, go with the F&P or the Speed Queen front loader.

If you are used to big loads or comforters in the old Kenmore top loader submerged in a tub full of water, you won't like the F&P vertical axis machine as it is very miserly with water.

Unless the latest models have been modified considerably from the 5-years-old IWL12 that I have (which they may be), F&P agitator machines are not all that miserly on quantity of water used for *washing*. Their primary method of reducing water consumption is by running a shower rinse instead of an agitated deep rinse (it's quite effective). Energy consumption is reduced by using hot or warm water only for an initial saturation/recirculation shower wash period, with the balance of fill being cold water for the agitated wash period. And the 1000 RPM spin cuts dryer time.

My IWL12 (Intuitive Eco) can use a HUGE amount of water depending on which cycle & options are selected. The Muddy cycle runs an agitated prewash, drains completely, then a shower wash, agitated wash, followed by two agitated rinses and numerous spin-sprays. The EcoSmart models don't have as many options, and are more oriented toward energy & water saving.

HE toploaders (like mine) do not use much water. My Maytag Bravos washer is 4.6 cu ft capacity, washes huge loads of laundry, yet uses very little water in comparison to a conventional top loader -- and no more than a frontloader of comparable capacity.