water heater-cost to direct vent? (NJ clean energy prog)

9 years ago

Hi, I will try not to be long winded. Our AC blew a few weeks ago, and is not worth fixing. The house is over 17 years old, and surprisingly the original builder's grade system has held up pretty well. But there is no point in trying to salvage the furnace at this point. Luckily, it's Sept and mild here in NJ so I have the luxury (hopefully) of a few weeks before we have to act. Right now, everything is disconnected as the hubby and various contractors have had at it.

So far, I got 3 estimates (I'm not even going to count one because it was from a high-pressure sales company and was not remotely what we were looking for). One was just an estimate for the furnace and AC for about 8K, and company #3 did an energy audit and qualified us for the NJ Clean Energy HPWES program. We got that estimate today, and I about fell over. Originally, they totaled about 18500 total, with 10K coming from a 0% loan, 5K in rebates and 3500 OOP. This was for a Lennox system. After some back and forth this morning, they also gave us a price about 1K less for a Goodman system. None of the energy measures were broken down as to what % they supposedly save, but one thing I did not want to bother replacing is the water heater. It works fine, and it seems a waste to replace. On top of that, (though he only "estimated" the breakdown), 2800 was for a new water heater. In part, this was theoretically to get us over 25% but I have no way of knowing how much this nearly 3K water heater contributes to that. My guess is not much. We could also get a 4K rebate for being over 20%, so really even if removing that water heater takes us to 20%, that would still take 1800 or so off the cost.

Here's my issue. I have a very hard time seeing how a water heater can possibly be 2800. Mind you, this is only a 7 year warrantied heater. I see some energy star WHs online at HD etc for under 900, so he tells me the rest is labor.....2K worth? Mine is a little older and will eventually go, but why replace what's not broken? Well, the other issue is that when they tested the WH, they told me it is not venting at all, which is some problem related to my chimney. The fix for that would be trying to figure out the problem and re-lining the chimney, but I was told by the salesman that even with that, once the pressure in the house is re-balanced, it may not meet requirements. The chimney would need relining to keep the current WH anyway, he tells me because it currently shares the chimney with the furnace, which itself will now have to be direct vented. So, he tells me that the cost to run the additonal electric, and install the direct vent is why the WH is so expensive. Now, our current WH is currently right up against the basement wall that a new one would vent to-which would involve going through the concrete block, but likely with not much space needed to run-a handful of feet up and out. This is in an unfinished basement that abuts the garage wall, where the electric panel is. I assume they will just run another outlet for this WH, since I am reading online that they basically plug in. I feel as if we are being way overcharged on both the WH and the furnace/ac, so I am getting other estimates. But reading other customers' experiences here, it seems that this is par for the course with this program and these companies acting as if we are benefiting so much from these programs that they can just overcharge. Frankly, I would not even care if I had nothing OOP, and with all the overages I suspect I am being charged for, I believe I would be a little under the 15K allotted. But I really can't find any info online about the cost of converting to a DV water heater. Can anyone tell me if this price seems way out of whack?

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Comments (5)

mike_home
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
The NJ Clean Energy program is a bit of a scam in my opinion. You have to buy things you don't necessarily need in order to qualify for the 25% energy savings which in reality is more like a 10% real savings. The quoted prices are very inflated. A price of $2800 for a hot water heater is absurd especially if the one you have if functional. Venting issues are serious and can be fixed. But it should not cost thousands of dollars.

Where in NJ are you located? I can recommend the Carrier dealer I used if you are in or near Mercer county.
jess111
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks. He told me it would cost over 1k to diagnose,repair, and reline the chimney. But then that there's no guarantee that it will pass their inspection requirements once the other changes have been made. Which puts me only ahead about 800 at best with the 1k loss in rebate. The ONLY benefit I see in this program is the 10k interest free loan, which would basically even out with an 8500 I would have to take out of my home equity loan for just the unit. Plus yes, I would be getting this other stuff I do not need or want but if it were "free" by falling all within the 5k rebate it would be a benefit. I really have my heloc close to max and there's no telling what interest rates will do. If this were costing me nothing OOP it would be a no brainer. But I think the extra 2000-3500 they were looking for kills the deal and my guess is there's inflation of 4-5k at least in pricing which more than makes up for the OOP they want. And I think a good 40% of that is grossly inflating the WH. I can't imagine that the labor in moving from a regular to a DV water heater could be so much, especially when there is little to no run!

I'm in Ocean County-so not too far from Mercer.
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mike_home
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Relining a chimney should not cost $1000. If you current chimney has a metal flue it may not even need to be relined. Sometimes a simple change to the water heater flue can fix a drafting problem.

I bought a Rheem Fury 40 gallon hot water heater last year for about $500. It replaced a 17 year old Sears hot water heater. Your current hot water heater has plenty of life left in it.

Send me an email and I will provide the contact information of the Carrier dealer I used for my furnace and AC replacements. Make sure you enable your account to show your email address so I can reply. My recommendation is to get additional quotes and don't get involved in the NJ Clean Energy program.
jakethewonderdog
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
OP: You really want to move away from an atmospheric vented water heater into a masonry chimney, esp if it shares that chimney with the furnace. It will be a problem if you change your furnace to a 90% condensing furnace (should do) and a significant amount of inside air is pulled through this vent and dumped to the outside.

There are a few ways you can do that:

1. Use a high efficiency power vent heater (.82 or better energy factor) to vent out sidewall.
2. Use a tankless gas heater (can be pricey)
3. Use an electric hybrid (heat pump) heater.

I'm not familiar with the NJ program, but it does sound like they are jacking up the price in order to capture the rebates and such.

You can get a reasonable estimate of your savings on the water heater by comparing the energy tag.

Here is an Example:

Standard gas tank water heater (.59 EF) $277 a year
High efficiency standard vent gas tank heater (.67 EF) $244 a year
High efficiency power vent gas water heater (.82 EF) $223 a year
Hybrid Electric $220 a year

These are averages - so your mileage may vary based on utility rates and usage - but gives you an idea.

Based on EF of the heater itself, you are talking about $50 a year savings. There would be some additional savings from not venting all that air up the flue when the heater's not on. (let's say the total is $65)

Here's what I'd do: Replace your furnace and AC with a 90-95 % furnace and a 14 SEER or better AC. Make sure you can do this with your current water heater.

Replace your water heater with one of the options above when it's time for a new water heater... not before.
cindywhitall
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
oh oh oh....sounds a lot like my posts of 2012 doesn't it!

I can't believe my system is 2 years old. The choices can make your head spin. I had a similar dilemma with my hwh. I eventually chose tankless and since we have a portable generator I don't worry about the power issues (which you will also have with a power vent).

Have to say I LOVE the tankless. Sometimes we just seem to need a lot of hot water, with 4 adults in the house. I have a soaker tub that I love and when it's cold it is delightful to fill it and not worry about who might come home and complain I used all the hot water. I think they ripped me about $4k for that puppy. Perhaps you can sway them into a tankless for the price they quoted you. It is the slow season. I used a company starting with an H,here in south jersey, and I got them to drop about $1500 from the price they had quoted in June by waiting until this time of year. The other company would not budge. My oop was $2k, plus the 0% financed amount. I found the 0% to be very attractive as well so as not to spend cash that could be invested.

I sometimes wish I'd gotten the next level up in my furnace, to variable speed from multi speed, because I had humidity issues the first summer. I think that was solved by choosing the correct speed setting as this year has been perfect and my heating has been fine as well, I did get 2-stage heat and ac. I just came up against my price limit and decided the luxury of the tankless was how I wanted to go (rather than up the heater another level)

The guys here got VERY tired of me (sometimes rightly so!) Perhaps you can find the old threads (novels almost!) that I posted here about the NJ CLEAN ENERGY program.

By the way, I did do some reading online and it can be true that if your house is well sealed that a conventional heater may not draft properly causing a risk of carbon monoxide buildup, which is why they talk you into a power vent or tankless.

Good luck. Try not to overthink or get too wrapped up in it. Accept that you will save SOME $, but the contractor will get at least half your rebate $ in mark ups. Are you getting insulation added? I think that was a good thing that I wouldn't have done otherwise.

water heater-cost to direct vent? (NJ clean energy prog)

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water heater-cost to direct vent? (NJ clean energy prog)

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mike_home

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