I'd suggest adding some dishwasher detergent that has phosphates in it to your whites + Charlie's Soap, to whiten them. Because of our hard water, I have to do this occasionally if I can't hang the clothes outside to dry and get sun bleached.

-Grainlady

Hi Plumbly, I thought I remembered you use hot washes on a regular basis but I may be confusing you with some other poster.
If your not using regular hot washes try a single sanitary wash and see if that gets rid of the build up.
I have seen in some cases when switching a detergent loosens the build up that the previous detergent allowed and that could be what your seeing. I've never used Charlies myself and I don't think I've run across it in any of my customers homes so I don't have enough information on it to tell you why it's greying your whites unless the whites are washed in cold.
Please keep the post updated because I'm curious.

I do use hot and/or sanitary cycles regularly...usually as the last loads on my Saturday "laundry day". I did 4 loads of towels at the end of the day yesterday and into today, all on hot using the Charlie's, I did notice an improvement in the buildup on the door and WAS actually able to remove most of it by wiping it down after the last load with a rag... but the drain hole on the boot is still another story! Y U C K Y!..

I have in the past used the dishwasher powder with phosphates wiht the Charlie's for the whites, but don't care for the residue it leaves on the clothes or their 'feel' afterwards.

I'm hoping once I get the machine cleaned out, that my white will continue to be alright with the Sears (besides I now have a bunch of that experiment to use up!) and that the buildup will be eliminated through the repeated use of the Charlie's...at least I'm hoping it will be eliminated as I had absolutely no scum on that boot or door previously.

Next, I make contact with Charlie's again about other ideas on my whites with their product.

Well... 3 sanitary cycles later (I did the sheets from the kids rooms)... I still have some 'residue' that I have been scraping at with my figernails on the door window but the boot drainage hole area looks much better... but as I move around the boot it's still got some yuck on it...

I'm hoping the charlie's continues to loosen it so I can get it all off...

Now for the emial off to Charlie's... since I rarely get a chance to phone during the work day!

Thanks for keeping us apprised.
I use the information in this forum for use with my customers and recommend they check it out.
If you don't mind me suggesting it... try some Oxiclean/Sun in the empty washer and do a sanitary wash. Use about 6 scoops. Then add about 2 more gallons of water after the unit stops filling. You can open the door to do this or pour it through the dispenser. I've had really good luck cleaning detergent build up in washers with this method.

So, I contacted Charlie's via email... I sent it off last night, and this afternoon I had a reply from Taylor... I'm pasting his response...

Howdy,

There are a couple of things going on here. Whites aren't stark white and over time, they may dull to their more natural cotton color. The Sears brand was adding a blueing agent to essentially paint the whites white. But in the process, it was also adding a bunch of other gunk which was depositing on the door, too. You had the right idea to add dishwashing powder because of the phosphates, but that stuff isn't made to rinse out of fabric. It's filled with grit to help knock food off of plates and glasses. Great for glass, but murder on cotton. What you really want is that which we're going to offer in the fall, potassium diphosphate or TKPP. That's the phosphate without the grit. We will be offering it in smaller containers, but right now, www.thechemistrystore.com offers it in 50# bags for just under $100. You would use it like this.

1) get the offending whites together
2) wash them with 2 doses of Charlie's Soap and 2 tablespoons of the TKPP
3) repeat at least once, if not twice
4) Whites should be restored, or at least improved.
5) for everyday washing of whites, add one 1 tablespoon of the TKPP per dose of Charlie's Soap.

We have this chemical's less boisterous sister, known as Sodium Tripolyphosphate. Use it just like the TKPP mentioned above, but use at least 2 tablespoons for ever one dose of Charlie's Soap. I can send you some of this for free to play around with.

That way, you get the zero detergent residue AND zero (or at least greatly diminished) mineral residues from the water. No more itchies, and whiter whites.

How's that? Also, see the attachment. Let us know if the following information is correct so we can send you a little bit of this STPP for you.

First, I'm in awe at how quickly he replied to my problem. I'm willing to buy the TKPP stuff he's mentioning... although I have this fear that 50 pounds of the stuff will last through my lifetime if I'm only using it in the white loads! I'm thinking about waiting until they have that for sale in smaller containers. I'll try his 'lesser alternative' when that arrives and see how that goes, and maybe I'll bite the bullet and jut order the 50# bag and be done? Realistically, if I'm using one tablespoon of it along with one tablespoon of Charlies for my white loads, it's going to last WAY longer than my supply of Charlies, since I usually do 2, maybe 3 loads of whites per week... other than the up front cost, I don't see the $100 cost as adding a hugh amount to my overall cost per load of laundry soap.

jakvis... I'll grab some oxiclean next time I'm out and give that a try... I'm down to some pretty well stuck on film on the window... rubbing and finger nails after the sanitary cycle is done are working...just slowly... I keep thnking if this is what I can see...what is there that I can't see???? grossing me out here...

I've been getting fantastic results on our whites by adding one scoop of Sun to my white load along with my detergent and using the Sanitary wash on my Bosch ( i've found Sun is quite a bit cheaper than Oxiclean but the same formula ). I have 2 boys 16, & 11, with a lot of white t shirts, socks, BVD's, etc. and have not been disappointed with the results. The whites are brilliant.
Before you spend $100 of the TKPP see if Sun or Oxiclean will give you the same results. After all $7 dollars is a lot easier to spend than $100.

I get a slow buildup of white stuff with the Sears Free powder. Not scummy, rather looks and feels more like mineral buildup, so maybe it's not the same thing you're getting. Run a couple of washes with Sears plus a tablespoon of STPP, and it's gone.

I'm confused by Charlie's response. Why would they suggest adding phosphate when many strides are being made to remove them (see article link).

"We've seen the impact of higher levels of phosphorus in our lakes, in our rivers, in our streams: beaches closed and summer holidays ruined; lakes and rivers choked with blue-green algae; poisonous impact on marine life and livestock. That's why our government is taking action," Baird said.

I always have sparkling whites with the addition of oxygen bleach. Ive used both sodium percarbonate and hydrogen peroxide and a mixture of both. Many companies sell these (ie. Ecover, Vaska, Biokleen, BioVert, etc ).

It also amazes me there are so many problems with scum and mildew. I have used all kinds of detergents in my FL in the last 9 years. I started with Tide and some years ago switched to "greener" options and never had these problems. When I switched to greener I did add the oxygen bleach and I actually think it does way more for whites than chlorine bleach ever did (its also much kinder to the fabric). You have to know how to use it properly and I think youd be amazed at the results.

I'm a long time Charlie's user who has been having the same problems with my whites. Several months ago I called Taylor and basically was given the same information you were. I really didn't want to add phosphates to my wash, so I was adding borax and/or washing soda along with Ecover oxygen bleach to every white wash - but I still had dingy whites. I always do hot washes and was even using my hottest setting (Bosch washer) but was still not happy with my white wash results.

I recently came across the new Tide Stain Release product so I bought some to try, along with Tide he detergent. I am shocked at how white and bright my clothes are after washing with the Tide products. The difference is night and day - even after one wash. I will continue to use Charlie's for my colored and lightly soiled clothes, but for white clothes and really dirty or stained clothes I will be using the Tide products from now on.

I looked into the Tide Stain Release products a little while ago.

While they contain a whole "soup" of stuff (including synthetic colors and fragrances) their main "whitening" agents are . sodium percarbonate and hydrogen peroxide. Both of which you can buy on their own.

I find that hydrogen peroxide is a much better whitener than sodium percarbonate. I know both Vaska and Ecover sell this type. I have also used a product from BioVert that uses both. I have lots of it on hand and my whites are very white - with two small boys and a husband that is quite a miracle.

Tide also contains enzymes which will definitely help with stain removal (I assume Charlies does not contain them). Other detergents (even eco ones) contain enzymes and will probably do a much better job at stains and odors than Charlies (not that Ive ever used Charlies).

How about Persil? No need to add anything else. One box, perfect result on every load.

jakvis... I have tried oxiclean in the was with the charlie's for my whites, but I had the same 'residue' in the clothes themselves which was problem for my husband's skin issues... I will try it for a clean out on the machne itself, but I can't use it for my laundry with him.

czedhchick2... Persil... is a several multiple cost difference over what charlie's costs me... i would prefer to find a less costly alternative to it... if the charlie's and and additive work for the whites, that's great, even if it ends up at 2 times the charlies cost per white load... that is still way less than one load of persil would work out to...

at least I know the Sears works for the whites and the Charlies for all else will keep my machine free of the ka ka the sears causes to build up on it's own...

my overall cost per load in MA is significantly lower with charlies (even with the additive for whites) or with the sears from what it would be with persil. pure economics.

What's the matter with me? Nothing but boring old Tide HE powder for five years (Duet 9400; soft water; variety of temps and loads) and haven't had any of these issues -- although I've certainly been looking because of my reading here over those years. I've been interested in all these stories from the beginning and still don't get the reasons for the issues reported.

asolo, my husband's skin can not 'handle' Tide products, or most any 'typical' products on the market.... dreft worked in years gone by.... and all free/clear, in the years prior to the fl bosch, since then it's been charlie's... and the sears... until I detected the film/scum on my washer from that. I'm assuming part of the issue here is my lovely New England ground water and part is the detergent itself.

Perhaps some day on some forum there will emerge definitive answers. In fairness, notwithstanding my own good experience and mystification about problems encountered by others, I don't recall such complaints market-wide from the days of top-loaders. Maybe I wasn't paying attention. My interest continues.

I know you're focusing on various cleaning products, but do you know your water quality? Wondering if softening or filtering of some kind for your ground water supply would help your situation. Water-testng isn't particularly expensive, typically, and well-water (is that what you have?) is notorious for iron, sulphur, and other minerals that can cause problems. Are these problems uniquely associated with this machine and, perhaps, were not issues with previous machines? Ground water in New England is typically pretty cold from the tap. Have you measured your actual wash temperatures in the machine? Wondering if its what you think it is.

Just noodling from a distance. Not trying to be a PIA.

I use boring old regular Cheer powder and have for years in my FLs. I get great results with small dosages (1 to 1 1/2 Tbs., i.e. less than one level green Charlie's scoop) and very warm-to-hot wash temps. I've tried just about everything else that's been talked about here, and keep some of these products on hand for special circumstances. But Cheer does the trick for me, week in and week out. It's also cheap, and used to be readily available. Nowadays the only place I can find it is at Target.

I'm pretty sure Cheer powder comes in a "free and clear" sensitive-skin formulation so perhaps that might work for the OP.

asolo... 'town' water in central MA from underground wells pumped into tanks (not an 'open' reservoir system)... per the 'quality' reports we get, we do not have "issues" or mineral or other problems, although it is not 'soft' water.... that said I will say there are days when I fill the bath and the water has a brown sheen to it... other days a blue sheen... so I know they have consistancy issues.

I don't know that I could "tell" if I had buildup/scum issues in my old tl machine... all you ever see ther is the inside of the tub.... not the window or the boot/drainage holes... in the tl that was all out of sight....

As far as temp goes, i typically always run my bosch using the water heater, so that should not be the problem here...

All that said... after two weeks of going back to charlie's except for my whites (when my 'sample' arrives from charlies I'll try their first auggested approach for whites and see how that goes)... the scum is now totally off my door and the boot/drain hole area is back to looking like new from a cleanliness perspective... scum is gone... I will stay with the charlie's for all but whites for now... it seems to be working at keeping my machine clean and all but my whites clean...

now to fix the whites problem...

liriodendron... can't use cheer or most 'mainstream' laundry products with my husband's skin problems... but thanks for the suggestion...

Please forgive me if I'm over the edge here, but........

Given your various descriptions of laundry issues and water appearance combined with your husband's sensitivity issues, my next question would be: "Do you have a couple of grand to spend?" Because for that amount of money I'll bet you could have your household water supply analyzed and easily-maintained treatment appliances put in place that would make these worries disappear. Not there so don't know if this would be a life-changer in your particular situation. However, if my spouse had such issues (and, actually, I, personally, do have such issues!) I would do whatever I had to......If there was money enough to do it.

Long-winded way of saying I'll bet your water supply is the culprit...and that probably-simple treatment at your house may be the solution. I'll bet you have friends/neighbors who have treatment systems -- softeners and such. What do they say about their laundry and other water-related experiences?

Hard water sucks. I feel your pain. No matter what you end up using to whiten your whites back up there is always a down side.

Use of phosphates is the most effective as they sequester both the magnesium and calcium particulates in hard water. However, phosphates do increase algae growth, but phosphates get dumped into water via fertilizer run off and household sewage.

Washing soda, borax, and sodium percarbonate are easier on the enviornment, but they only sequester magnesium particulates. It may help prevent some dinginess, but they can only go so far.

Conventional detergents with optical brighteners can really get things white, but optical brighteners are not that great on aquatic life either.

I say use what works for you in a resposible fashion and everything will be okay.

Hard water is a pain. The best solution is always to treat your water at the source. The second best solution is to get a non-precipitating water softener to at least boost the ability of a detergent to do its job without raining out insoluble grit.

Phosphates are a nutrient. If you put too much into the water, you get slippery rocks from too much algae. The key is to use anything in moderation. If you are a laundry service dumping tons per year into the water, I would not recommend using a phosphate.

If you can't treat the water at the source or in the wash, then the go-to for many people is a detergent with brighteners to absorb UV light and reflect high-frequency blue light which our eyes under most circumstances interpret as bright white. It is a specialized residue on clothing.