For one thing, it is possible that the electric baseboard heaters are 240 volt units and are supplied with only 120 volts. If so, their wattage output is only 1/4 of the rated value.
Secondly, it appears that lots of changes were made on a whim without considering the consequences. If you agree, it is time to get some caring professional help at your premises. That will be difficult to do as those are scarce people.

Yeah, you screwed up. Get a pro in to figure out how to fix the problems. Yes, problems. HVAC is only the first thing showing up as an issue. I'd want a structural engineer to view the work you did first, in order to determine that the wall you took down was really non loadbearing. And a visit from a HVAC professional is a MUST as well. Maybe even an electrician, depending on what you did to the electrical.

This is yet another reason for permits to be pulled. Most municipalities would have required a HVAC inspection as part of the remodel and would not have signed off on bathrooms with only limited heat and cooling.

Thanks for your reply, bus_driver. The electrician billed us for doing the 240 volt work, but I'll verify at the breaker box. And I appreciate your advice, but I'm not sure how to find these caring professionals. We hired an architectural firm to design the renovation. They recommended 2 general contractors to do the work. We checked references for both GCs (of course the GCs are the ones who provide the references, so it wasn't surprising that they were all positive).

We did the project in 2 parts because the first part involved building a new carriage house/garage that was separate from the main house. We chose that GC based on my husband's previous work experience with the company, and had wonderful results. They didn't bid on the 2nd part because their expertise is pole construction - not remodeling/additions.

The GC that we ended up going with for the 2nd part of the project (not because of price - both were pretty close in price), we chose because we felt that we were better able to communicate with him. He expressed so much confidence in his subcontractors and the previous clients that we met could only say excellent things about him and his subs.

Because of the success of our first project, we didn't question the advice of the "experts" that our 2nd GC used for the house project. At least not until we were about 4 months into the project. Then little things started cropping up that made us start to question the product that we were getting.

It wasn't long before we began to feel that the GC was actually representing his subs, rather than us. If we questioned their decisions, he let them answer and basically just served as a go between, rather than to offer advice based on his expertise and knowledge.

I realize that there were problems that were unknown until the demolition began - a 2nd floor shower drained exactly where a beam needed to go, so we had to redo the upstairs shower with a pan with an offset drain - and although we knew that the there was a heat duct in the wall that the architects were removing, we weren't aware that the remaining walls would already be full of plumbing and heating items making it not feasible to replace the ductwork. And when it was discovered, no one, not the architects, nor the GC, nor the HVAC guy expressed any concern with swapping the ducts with baseboard heaters. If someone would have said, "we really need some way to run duct work to these 2 bathrooms, otherwise you going to roast in the summer and freeze in the winter, we would have been more than happy to have the architects work on a design that would allow that to happen. These people deal with this stuff on a daily basis. We don't. We assumed they knew what they were talking about. Not even the architects expressed any concern. No one suggested a 2nd opinion.

The demolition started in January. It wasn't until July that we began to experience the heat issues. And our electric bill was almost triple the prior month, while we were trying to cool off our upstairs rooms.

The only advice from the HVAC guy was to close all of the basement and first floor vents and to clean our a/c unit and insulate our attic.

Obviously we aren't thrilled with that advice, but decided we should follow through with the insulation suggestion, since we know the insulation is inadequate in the attic. Then we'll see what happens next summer.

But, with cold weather coming on, now we're afraid that we're going to have issues trying to keep the bathroom warm. In our last house, we had a nutone exhaust fan with heater and light and it worked wonderfully. When we suggested that instead of the baseboard heat - the hvac guy said that with the baseboard heat, we'd be able to generate more upstairs heat consistently (by leaving it on), rather than only have the heat generated in the morning during bathroom use, and that made sense to us, if if does end up working that way.

But this is the same hvac person who, after bidding a mini split system for our new sunroom, convinced us that we should switch to a full heat pump and furnace, for that area, so that we could also provide that conditioned air to our finished basement - and shut off the basement portion of our main oil furnace because we had added about 400 sq. feet of living space when we converted the attached garage to living space. But then he wasn't able to run duct work to the basement due to some beams and later changed his story and said that it wasn't a good idea shut off the main furnace ductwork from the finished part of the basement because it wouldn't be balanced then.

We were also "sold" sound batting for our 1st floor ceiling. This was the insulation expert. We opted for that because we have a daughter who is extremely sensitive to sounds. Turns out, sound batting is just R-19 insulation put in a ceiling. After the 1st floor ceiling was installed, we discovered that from the 2nd floor you could hear a normal conversation taking place on the first floor. When I complained to the GC, he had me call the insulation expert, who said that if we have hardwood floors on the 2nd floor, there's nothing that is going to provide any soundproofing, except perhaps to carpet the 2nd floor. Which isn't what he was telling us when he talked us into the "sound batt". When I relayed the conversation to our GC and told him that I thought it was misleading to call it sound batt insulation when his expert believes, there isn't really anything (except wall to wall carpeting) that is going to reduce sounds carrying through a hardwood floor, he just replied with "Yea, I just know that is what they call it in the industry." That was really helpful.

I think what makes previous clients like our GC is that he makes things look really nice. The subs keep coming back until the appearance is beautiful. Cabinet doors are replaced or repaired if there's even a tiny scratch. Walls are touched up if there's a piece of lint in the paint. But, I don't have any faith in the GC or his subs when it comes to making the best decisions.

A very expensive lesson to have learned. But now, we'd just like some unbiased advice as to what we should do at this point.

hollysprings, I'm not sure why you think we did this job ourselves, without getting permits? When I said "we" I meant we allowed ourselves to be talked into this decision. Structural engineers did review the architects drawings and beams and support posts were added as part of this remodel. Inspections were made. I'll call our county hvac inspector on Monday, to find out what the code is on heating/cooling in the bathrooms, but there was an HVAC permit, so I'm sure it had to be signed off on in order to get our final inspection completed.

And we only used "pro's", if by professional you mean award-winning, degreed architects, and an award winning GC, all of whom are members of NARI (Nat'l Assoc. of Remodeling Ind.), and all subs who are licensed with both our state and our county.

But having degrees, memberships, awards and licenses doesn't mean that any of them were truly looking out for what was in our best interest, does it? It means they pay money for a membership, and made things look really nice. It doesn't mean that they did everything correctly.

How do we find the person who will give us honest information, that's in our best interest, not necessarily just to make more money off of us?

Re: Dixieman

"How do we find the person who will give us honest information, that's in our best interest, not necessarily just to make more money off of us?"

This person will likely be the person that is very knowledgeable, a good listener, communicates well, loves their work and takes the time to first educate you on the matters that they are there to address. This will likely take several visits, as after an hour to an hour and a half your head is swimming and it becomes difficult to absorb more information. Further questions and explanations will also be handled via e-mail or phone. They will invite you and encourage you to verify any technical information with other professionals and on the web. They should be willing to admit when they don't have the answers or information and that they will do further research and get back to you in a timely fashion.

Regarding your current situation, were you at least offered in-floor radiant heating for these bathrooms? Were you offered a linear drain as a possible solution to the shower drain problem?

As for the baseboard heaters, I can't say whether they're 110 or 220 based on the schematic and breaker layout in the accompanying photos; I see 2-electrical panels.

At this point it seems like the directions to explore that may be the most sensible would either be to install a mini split heat pump with multiple heads for the upstairs bathrooms and other areas. The other possible solution would be a hydronic solution with fan coils units placed in these areas feed by warm or chilled water depending on what mode they are in. This solution can be coupled either to an air-source heat pump or a geothermal heat pump. It would be rather expensive but very energy efficient!

I hope your bathrooms are well ventilated and that the walls and floors have properly installed Schluter membranes to eliminate moisture, mould and cracking problems.

Best wishes!

SR

After doing a handful of home improvements to my house (remodeled kitchen, remodeled master bath, update main bath), I've realized that you have to become the inspector yourself.

I hired a company to gut my master bathroom and replace everything in the same spot (shower, toilet, sink, fan, shower light, vanity lights, light switches, etc). Everything looked great when they were done. New light over shower, new tile in shower, new tile in floor, new shower faucets, new sink, new fan, new medicine cabinet, new toilet, new vanity lights, etc.

Two years later when I hire another company to insulate my walls and finish insulating my attic, I discover that the light fixture over the shower is not attached to the studs in the attic. The metal can is loose and the wires spark when I touch them. The ceiling fan is not connected to the vent pipe.

I now have to hire a handyman to fix the electrical and attach the fan to the vent pipe. It's not going to cost me more than $300 to fix, but I can't believe these guys were that sloppy. If I hadn't gone up in the attic to check on the insulation, I would not known these things were installed incorrectly.

It makes you wonder what else they did wrong. I did take pictures every day I came home, so I did document all the work they did from start to finish. Things looked good to me, but I never went in the attic to check.

On the main bath, I didn't replace the tub nor its fixtures and I didn't replace any of the tile. I just replaced the ceiling fan/light, vanity lights, toilet, sink and sink cabinet, medicine cabinet, and all the hardware like towel racks, paper holder, bathrobe hook, etc.

I was actually bought all the fixtures and had a handyman replace everything. I was there helping, so I knew exactly what was being done.

The bottom line is that you have to educate yourself and be the inspector.

The kitchen remodel turned out okay. I regret the tile floor 20" tile squares I picked and the mismatching chrome/nickle/stainless-steel finishes, but was very happy with the granite countertops, stainless steel appliances, lighting, wall paint, hardware, and wood cabinets. Everything is working great, but my interior design skills need more training.

Sorry for the assumption that this was DIY. Your description just sounded like the usual "ooops, we forgot that detail" that so many DIYers end up with. With professionals involved though, it's an even worse scenario. You DO need a HVAC professional in to analyze your entire building envelope, including windows and directional exposure, insulation level, air infiltration, HVAC production and ducting. Once all of those factors have been inspected, only then can an actual solution to the problem be proposed. Personally, I would not have designed any bath renovation without electric underfloor heating, no matter the type of the main heating for the space. It will take even a coolish bath and make it feel more comfortable because your toes are warm.

"we then realized that we had lost the cooled air that previously ran to the bathrooms and our entire 2nd floor was almost unbearably hot during the evenings"

I find it hard to believe that eliminating the vents in two small bathrooms has now made the entire 2nd floor hotter in the summer. Some other change to the HVAC system could be causing the lack of cooling to the 2nd floor.

The electric baseboard heater should be adequate if it is wired to 240V.

I know you said the original duct work to the bathroom was eliminated when a wall was removed. Is there a way to restore the duct by building a chase against the exterior wall?

Mike - thanks for your input. We have the same feeling, but because we only lived in the house for one summer before the renovation, we only have that summer to compare it to. That's why we were willing to give the extra attic insulation a try. I do like SR's thought of installing the mini split if it turns out that the heating and cooling simply isn't adequate on the 2nd floor.

In the middle of this post I ran down and checked the wiring and I believe that Mike, bus and SR hit the nail on the head about the wrong wiring. Because the electrician hooked them up to a 20 amp (not a 15), I assumed it was wired to 240V. Now I don't think so. I'm attaching pics.

The screwdriver is pointing to the circuit breaker that the heaters are wired to...note only 1 black wire running to the breaker

This pic shows the wire labeled baseboard heaters. I'm thinking it's not heavy enough to be running 240v?

From what I've read, a 20 amp breaker cannot generate 240v and the wire that was used cannot simply be moved to different breakers because it's not made to conduct that much voltage?

So, at this point, if we want to be warm in the bathrooms this winter, we'll definitely need to have a new wire run to the bb heaters?

Since the HVAC guy bought the heaters and the GC told the electrician to run the wires, it's up to GC to figure out who pays for new wires to be run?

Thanks so much to everyone for their input...I'll keep you posted...

Also, to answer a couple other questions...The architects designed a 5' window for over the kitchen sink. This window blocks all access to exterior wall opportunity for running ductwork on an outside wall, because, from the 2nd floor, to the left and right of the wallspace not broken up by the kitchen window are bathroom closets. And for the opposite wall, where the doors are, the kitchen is 12' wide and the baths above are only 7' wide (then a hallway makes up the rest of the space over the kitchen walls) and floor joists run the wrong direction to be able to run under the hallway floor.

And we really didn't plan on doing anything to the bathrooms - they had been remodeled by the previous owners - the only reason that we changed the heating was because of the loss of the wall, and the only reason the shower pan was replaced was due to the necessity of moving the drain.

I do appreciate, again, everyone's thoughts and offers of suggestion!

The circuit breaker which is labeled "dryer" is a 240V circuit. Notice the breaker is composed to two breakers which are ganged together by a single switch. The two individual switches are connected to a black and green wire. Each of these wires has 120V which are 180 degrees out of phase with each other which when added together produce 240V.

A three conductor wire (black, red, white) needs to be routed from the circuit panel to the baseboard heaters. You need to install a double circuit breaker. It looks like the circuit breaker about the current baseboard breaker is not in use. If that is the case then you could gang together these two breakers to create the 240V circuit. I find it strange the electrician did not do this.

It is worth trying the baseboard heater with 240V before you do anything else. Doubling the voltage will result in 4 times the heat output.

dixieman,

Wire is fine. It can be used for 120 or 240V. Problem is breaker set up. Does white wire on the wire going to baseboard heaters hooked to ground/neutral bar in panel? If so it is wired for 120v and can be fixed by installing correct breaker. I would have eletrician check wiring inside the heaters though.

@mike - you're correct, the breaker above isn't in use, so hopefully that will make things easier to remedy. And thank you for the explanation about how using 2 120 makes for the generation of 240V - I didn't know about the out of phase concept, but it makes sense.

@harlem, for the information about the wire being fine. I was afraid that the wire would need a 3rd wire because the dryer has 3 wires. Yes, the white wire is hooked to the ground/neutral bar. But I am confused as to how the wire can be hooked up to the 2 combined breakers, if it only has 2 wires and one is hooked to the ground/neutral bar. Doesn't that only leave 1 to hook into a single breaker?

I sent email to GC about it not producing much heat and being hooked up to 120 breaker - he called to say the electrician said it's not a problem and he'll call me to schedule a time to fix it. Since he doesn't appear to be concerned, I'm guessing he doesn't need to run a different wire, as the walls are all insulated and drywalled now, but I'm curious as to how that will work.

Thanks again to everyone for their valuable input!

I'd be careful about the advice about the wiring being "fine."

Looking at your breaker panel photo it would appear that the visible wire attached to your heater breaker is of a smaller size (diameter) than on the breaker for the hot water heater.

@mike - you're correct, the breaker above isn't in use, so hopefully that will make things easier to remedy. And thank you for the explanation about how using 2 120 makes for the generation of 240V - I didn't know about the out of phase concept, but it makes sense.

@harlem, for the information about the wire being fine. I was afraid that the wire would need a 3rd wire because the dryer has 3 wires. Yes, the white wire is hooked to the ground/neutral bar. But I am confused as to how the wire can be hooked up to the 2 combined breakers, if it only has 2 wires and one is hooked to the ground/neutral bar. Doesn't that only leave 1 to hook into a single breaker?

I sent email to GC about it not producing much heat and being hooked up to 120 breaker - he called to say the electrician said it's not a problem and he'll call me to schedule a time to fix it. Since he doesn't appear to be concerned, I'm guessing he doesn't need to run a different wire, as the walls are all insulated and drywalled now, but I'm curious as to how that will work.

Also, keeping in mind that it is providing electricity to 2 240V baseboard heaters (one in each bathroom) - does that pose any issues? If the wire is the one that I found online that appears to look like it - it is rated for a maximum voltage of 600 V, so that would still be ok?

Thanks again to everyone for their valuable input!

"""But I am confused as to how the wire can be hooked up to the 2 combined breakers, if it only has 2 wires and one is hooked to the ground/neutral bar. Doesn't that only leave 1 to hook into a single breaker? ""

You need to look closer. That is a #12 romex wire. It has a bare copper, wire a white conductor ,and black conductor. Black and white go to breaker and bare copper to ground.

""" I'd be careful about the advice about the wiring being "fine."
Looking at your breaker panel photo it would appear that the visible wire attached to your heater breaker is of a smaller size (diameter) than on the breaker for the hot water heater. """"

The one going to the baseboard heaters should be of smaller diameter. Water heater is 1500 to 2000 watts of power compared to the baseboard heaters being 375 watts(referenced from your above post of baseboard heaters specs) apiece with a total of 750 watts. Half the total of water heater. 12 awg wire will hold 20 amps.
Formula: watts = voltage x amps
So 750watts divided by 240 volts = 3.125 amps WAY inside of wire size. All residential style romex wire is rated for 600 volt max as you have found online already. Wire is not a problem the installer is.

As an aside, 300w seems small for a heater. I would have expected more like 1200w for a bathroom heater. I've had bathroom light fixtures that put out more heat than that.

"As an aside, 300w seems small for a heater. I would have expected more like 1200w for a bathroom heater. I've had bathroom light fixtures that put out more heat than that."

Many portable electric heaters are rated at 1500/750/375 Watts. I agree 300 or 600 Watts won't do a heck of a lot to warm up a bathroom.

Electric baseboard heat typically works well with good insulation at 10 -12 watts per square foot. But the rise time is not fast at such wattage.
600 watts is 2047 BTU per hour.

weedmeister, saltidawg and bus_driver - thanks for the heads up on our baseboard heater limitations. Talk about an exercise in frustration...I sent an email to the GC today asking what formula his hvac guy used when deciding that we needed 375watts for our bathrooms.

Realizing that this is an old house with minimal insulation in the walls, and we live in central Ohio, I'm thinking that the heaters are undersized for the space, even if the bathrooms are small to begin with.

When I'm calculating square footage for each bathroom, I get 31.2 sq. feet for the open area. And, I figure I really shouldn't calculate the square footage for the parts of the room where we have floor to ceiling cabinets.

But one bathroom has a tub that takes up an additional 27 sq ft = which makes one bathroom = 58.2 sq. ft * 10 = 582 minimum wattage required

and the other is (including the shower space, but not the floor to ceiling cabinets) 35.5 sq. ft * 10 = 355 min. wattage. But if you use the 12 watts per square foot figure (which is probably low, considering the poor insulation), then you get 426 min. wattage for the small bath and 700 for the larger bathroom.

I'm thinking that 1200 is probably a great recommendation, but our wallspace is limited in these bathrooms. The outside wall can only accommodate a 30" long heater due without blocking the cabinet doors. I know they can be joined together and it appears they can be joined at corners - would that be our best option for heating the bathrooms? Joining one to the ones on the outside wall would require it running behind the toilet - would that be a safety issue at all?

"When I'm calculating square footage for each bathroom, I get 31.2 sq. feet for the open area. And, I figure I really shouldn't calculate the square footage for the parts of the room where we have floor to ceiling cabinets."

I don't believe this is correct. I would think you would use the room dimensions, which will take into consideration the entire volume of room air that needs to be heated to create the desired comfort.

OK, now I'm a little more confused. HVAC guy used 50 sq. ft for both bathrooms which is pretty close and provided the following equation:

The heaters have a capacity each of 1275 Btu's. The restrooms are an estimate of 50 sq ft. The manuel J calculation for second floor room with one side exposure to outside is approximately 18 Btu's a sq ft.
50 Sq. ft. x 18 btu's =900 Btu's per restroom.

Using BTUs seems to make sense so I did a little more research on using BTUs as a basis. Here's my assumptions because I don't have the Manual J to refer to:

Room square foot = 50'
Room cubic feet = 400 (8' ceilings)
Based on the fact that the nearest heating ducts are in bedrooms and we keep our doors closed and thermostat turned down to 65, I'm going to assume the starting temperature is 65 and we'd want something like 75 temp in the winter, so temperature rise would be 10 degrees. I'm just making assumptions here, so if they seem out of line, someone let me know.
I know some calculators use desired temp minus minimum outside temp to calculate the temp rise, but the calculator I've linked to below seems better suited to our needs, as it appears to take into consideration the starting temp which will be set by the house furnace.
At this point, I don't know if the primary purpose of these heaters will be to supplement the 2nd floor heating or if they will only be necessary for warming the bathrooms - if they were baseboard a/c units, I would have left them running at full blast this summer to provide some relief to the rest of the 2nd floor.
If we're going to need them to supplement the heat, I'd assume they'd be left on most of the winter and the bathroom temperatures would remain fairly constant. But, if the current furnace and existing ducts are able to maintain the house at about 65 degrees, I see them as primarily being switched on in the mornings to heat the bathrooms before morning showers, then turned off before leaving the house. And in either case, I think it's important to take into consideration how long it will take the units to raise the temperature 10 degrees and will that time be different for a unit that's constantly running to assist with maintaining a 65 degree temperature vs. starting from cold to warm a room from 65 degrees to 75 degrees?

The calculator below is giving me 3,675 BTUs and 1,077 Watts/hr, which is closer to the recommendations made by the folks here, but conflicts with Manual J calculations.

I don't know that much about a Manual J, but it does appear to take into consideration things like 2nd floor room (I assume that also means room underneath is heated), 1 exterior wall.

The online calculator does take into consideration factors like insulation type, but doesn't ask if it's 2nd floor. I don't think either wanted to know that the ceiling above is attic space with poor insulation (at this point, anyway)

One other thing I discovered in doing more online research is that the thermostats that were installed on the baseboard heaters are single pole, which means they don't actually turn completely off, so does that mean that they will be generating at least some heat year round? Does that mean that they will continually draw electricity year round too? If so, would either of those factors concern you?

Any thoughts?

Here is a link that might be useful: The Heat Shop BTU calculator

"One other thing I discovered in doing more online research is that the thermostats that were installed on the baseboard heaters are single pole, which means they don't actually turn completely off, so does that mean that they will be generating at least some heat year round? Does that mean that they will continually draw electricity year round too? If so, would either of those factors concern you?"
They do turn off one pole when the temperature they sense is higher than the set temperature. If all else is well. The lowest set temperature may be 50 deg while double pole units often will go down to 40 deg. Not a concern in the bathroom.
I have seen a few failures where the built-in conductor (not the heating element) running the length of the heater short circuits to the grounded heater body. Then after resetting the breaker or replacing the fuse, the short is maintained in such a way as to let the heater operate continuously on the 120 volt pole that the thermostat does not interrupt. Rare occurrence, but it does happen.

I would want a register just to help circulate air which helps keep excessive moisture in check.

Thanks for your comment Mo - registers didn't really seem to be an option, unless we kept the wall on the 1st floor which would run down the middle of our kitchen. We do have vents that we run for moisture. I'm going to check to see if we can swap them to heat/light/fan units - either with timers or moisture sensors, to add to the heat issue. I really wish there would have been a different option.

Bathrooms fans help but having actual conditioned air circulated through the room mitigates excess moisture much faster.