better efficiency: attic insulation v. new windows
luckyj
13 years ago
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creek_side
13 years agoRelated Discussions
Attic I Insulation Help On New Construction
Comments (36)Lzerarc, I have heard of companies doing just what you describe with recessed cans & bath fans. it has been a while, because for the most part we are foaming the roofline. if ducts are in the conditioned living space then attic floor is foamed. here,it is uncommon for ducts not to be in attic..sadly. epic fail on designer/arch imo most of the thread is about open cell. as per post #4 in which OP specifies foam type. I have the same problem in getting foam companies to install 8-9" of open cell sf insulation. on a few occasions I can 'make' them install this depth, but it causes bad feelings with the company & sometimes my client. the line from the foam company is that it raises cost of install. this tatic to me bears explaining. when adding to depth of foam insulation, it does NOT double the cost. to break it down, the homeowner pays for the foam company's set up. getting truck on site, heating the product, setting up the hoses to spray and prep work. once this is done, the cost to add more product is only product cost. it isn't much more time, as spray foam install is fast. set up has been paid for. to go from 3" to 6" or 9", the homeowner only pays for the extra product, and minimal time to install. this was the discussion in going from 3" to 6". foam co would say...double the cost, homeowner would balk. once the homeowner understood that they would be paying for setup etc no matter if 3",6" or more was installed, then we could start the conversation about true costs to insulate more. as for flash & batt, it just isn't happening here. if the foam company is on sit, they aren't there to just spray 1", when they could be on another job spraying more & making more money. if the foam co can't convince the homeowner to install more foam...they simply do not take the job. now maybe if they worked for a builder & had several houses to do with flash/batt. but in my area, the foam salesmen have flat out told me that they won't waste their time doing flash/batt. IMO it isn't a bad way to go...just getting a company to make minimal money when they could be making more for the same amount of time. I'm 100% with you on no recessed lights. this is a trend I keep waiting for its death! personally why Insulation Contact (not IC Air Tight) are even still produced is something I don't understand. even when recessed lights are to be installed under porches, I have homeowner/electrician purchase only ICAT. otherwise the boxes get mixed up during install & types are mixed in the house. upcharge isn't much per case to go IC to ICAT....See MoreHot climate attics: insulation & ventilation question
Comments (31)"With the air tight IC recessed light cans you should still build air sealed enclosures around them because they leak a lot apparently. LEDs are a great choice for these locations especially without enclosures as they have a weaker "mini chimney" effect." in all my projects new and existing I've found many ways to seal IC cans. retrofit with inserts. then seal housing to sheetrock ceiling...from inside the house before putting trim kits in place. even 'air tight' trims don't stop the oversized cuts in sheetrock from leaking. I use a mastic tape made by Hardcast #1402 for all my holes in ceiling. more on this later. this seal described above is the best with no measurable air leakage. building boxes..maintaining the 4" air space on all sides & top of can light..also works, cheaper cost..harder install. problem is the 'legs' of the can lights that are attached to ceiling joists & properly sealing around them. this is where the air leakage occurs. I never use foam..because it shrinks over time, you have little control over where it goes & unless it is fire rated..shouldn't be next to heat producing areas. and yeah..I'm overly cautious about this. this method can be well done..and still leaky. foam installs I've seen online in videos put fg batts around recessed lights and foam them. I don't like this at all, and it is never done on my jobs. best of all is to use ICAT only, and use the hardcast tape to seal the cut between housing & sheetrock. Hardcast brand mastic tape #1402 is a 3" wide strong mastic tape. I perfer it over any other brand on the market. cut it into 1 1/2" wide strips and use it in full width depending on size of opening to be sealed. sticks to just about any clean dry surface...to the point of pulling paper off sheetrock if you try to remove it. so use it carefully. opeings at bath fans, supply boxes, stove vents, recessed lights..I use hardcast. use it once..and you'll understand why. not the cheapest on the market @ $22- $35 per 100' roll. but absolutely great stuff. while it is hard to describe the sealing of supply boxes with hardcast from inside the house..a picture shows it well. I'll attach one to this post. flgargoyle .. foil bubble foil is an overpriced product that performs no better than the cheaper radiant barriers. in my house with a tin roof..I have a single sided foil scrim fraft paper like what is used for ductwrap. I used button cap nails to attach it to the undersides of my rafters. with gable end vents..and 3 hurricanes later I've had to do a little repair on it..but it was worth the few bucks it cost me & the 2 mornings it took to install. good benefit in summer little to none in winter. my attic has fg batts on attic floor, one layer in joist bays the other unfaced layer laid across joists. no ducts, no equipment no recessed lights and a damn near perfect air barrier from living to attic space. ducts are in fur downs inside living space, vs air handler in side living space also. a bit over sized @ 2 tons with an whole house april air dehumidifier..also in conditined space. 4" media filter at return. 15SEER unit the addition I re-roofed last summer, batts in rafter bays 1" R-7 foil foam sheating lathes & gavalnized tin. as rafter/ceiling joists are 2x4 (yeah...go figure) the batts are R-13 with the R-7 gives me R-21 for this large bedroom. prior to this install the room was used for storage as it was too hot in summer & too cold in winter and too expensive & uncomfortable to use. with radiant barriers there always has to be a mininum of a 3/4" air space. thus the lathes on top of foil foam board under tin in addition & opposite install in big attic with rb under rafters with foil facing into attic space. gotta run...but wanted to share my take on things. oh here is the pic of the supply sealed from inside the house with hardcast tape. best of luck...See Moreinsulating the attic -- which method to choose?
Comments (24)hi there, Fellow single-woman insulator here. :-) I've been doing a lot of insulating upgrades lately on my own 1923 house (which was mostly uninsulated before I bought it) and I'm up in Maine, so our climate is a bit colder than yours. But I think many of the same principles apply anywhere there is snowfall. As I understand it, ice dams happen because the insulation is failing in that area and allowing your heated house air up into the attic to warm the roof. There are two schools of thought on stopping this: 1. Insulate right at the roof (the rafters) with spray foam to basically include the attic as part of the heated house. This eliminates the need to do tons of air sealing all over the attic floor and then you don't need to use blown-in or batts. Plus you have more usable storage space. The foam closes your soffit vents, because if the attic is part of the house now, you don't want any cold air flowing through it. (fyi despite the cost (around $2000 for a 1400sf house)this is the route we've gone and it does seem darned effective.) 2. Insulate the attic floor and basically make the attic part of the outside. This means your top inside ceiling is now the top of the warm house and needs tons of insulation over it. The more the merrier. Here's where you want those soffit vents. Think of the soffit vents as providing a steady current of air from the eaves up to the top along the roof, over top of the insulation and the roof itself, keeping the roof the same temperature as the outside so snow doesn't melt and create dams. In our cold climate the recommended attic R-value is very high, which would mean a few feet of blown-in cellulose. Part of the problem with a cathedral (slanted) ceiling is that it doesn't leave a ton of space on the other side of the ceiling for insulation to go -- ours wouldn't allow for even the minimum recommended amount of blown-in or batts. So for me, foam was a necessity. If you can possibly afford it, the other key thing to insulate are your rim joists in the basement. We did this and it made an immediate difference in the heating costs. In my understanding, you need to seal up under the walls at their very bottom, so that cold air doesn't whoosh up through the (uninsulated) walls and between subfloors and floors and cool the entire place down. See the attached article. Good luck with your decision and stay warm! Here is a link that might be useful: DIY Insulating Rim Joists...See Morehow to measure insulating efficiency of windows????
Comments (18)Hi ERLA - ltns! jaansu, I am guessing that you have clear glass over clear glass IGU in your windows. The temperature measurements that you gave are not unreasonable for that configuration. As a general guideline, dual pane clear glass windows will have a center-of-glass temperature of around 43 when the outside temperature is 0° with no wind or solar interference. Adding LowE coating and argon fill will increase that temp up to about 57° (when zero outside). These are center-of-glass measurements, and can vary when measuring the glass outside of the center or when measuring various compnents of the window sash / frame. Your windows are 17 years old. I would guess that they don't have a LowE coating or argon fill. Even today, only about half of windows being produced have a LowE coating - which surprises many people who assume that the coating and gas infill are "standard" features in all windows. There isn't much that you can do about raising the indoor temperature of your windows. I would recommend that you ensure that the windows are tightly sealed and that the weather-stripping is in good repair. You can also add the interior shrink-film plastic which will help limit both air infiltration and will add an insulating airspace between the glass and the plastic which may help the temp climb a little....or some folks cover their windows with exterior plastic during the winter for the same reasons. Hopefully, doing a few little things can help. I am not a big fan of either insulating curtains or shades since they tend to block interior heat from the windows which can lead to excessive condensation and potential moisture-related problems particularly in a cold environment. And a bit off topic, but since it showed up on the thread... U-value does equal 1/R and by strange coincidence R-value does indeed equal 1/U  but there is no vast conspiracy of window companies (and NFRC by extension) deciding to list U-value rather than R-value in order to "hide" poor energy performance  actually there are very sound reasons for using U versus R when dealing with windows. And, as a matter of fact, R-value can be (and sometimes is) used by window sales folks to "hide" the true performance of a window. Windows performance is presented in U-factor simply because it is a more accurate way of describing window performance. While U-factor can be converted to R-value because it is a more intuitive number and it is easier for many people to "see" the overall performance, if an energy rater (for example) wants to determine the overall performance of the window and wall system the energy rater must convert back into U-value for the calculations. R-value is a measure of resistance to conductive heat loss "thru" a material or group of materials. U-value is a measure of heat transfer "across" a group of materials. Windows are an "across" product. The primary disadvantage of using R-value for a window is that what is often given is the center-of-glass reading, which while technically correct, can be misleading when dealing with the overall energy performance of the unit (which I alluded to earlier in this post). U-factor, as listed in the NFRC directory and on the window label of units certified thru the NFRC, is the actual overall energy performance of the window system and not a number related to the best-performing portion of the unit. No one is hiding anything - it is simply a more accurate number....See Moreenergy_rater_la
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