HVAC Air to Air Heat Pump

15 years ago

I am hoping someone in this Forum will be able to help me, because, I just bought a house recently and am very confused on choosing a heating system.

My wife and I purchased a house in northeastern Pennsylvania, and, along with many others, we do not want to pay the high costs of Oil, Gas or Electric heat.

It is a very small house totaling of only about 1000 square feet (1 floor ranch style) with a fireplace. We are thinking that it shouldn't be that bad to heat this house (after choosing an alternate source of heat). It currently has electric heat which is VERY expensive (Well, for us it is).

We are in a very fortunate situation right now, because, after we fixed up the house the way we wanted, spent the money on closing costs/down payment, got our furniture,..etc...etc.. we are now left with $12,000.00 to spend on a new heating system :)

So, the first thing we did was get an estimate on Geo-Thermal heating. ($22,000.00) Unfortunately, that was way out of our range.

The company that gave us the estimate for the GeoThermal also suggested an "Air to Air Heat Pump System" ($7,150.00) if the GeoThermal was out of our price range.

Now, the Air to Air Heat Pump system is definitely in our price range, but, before wasting money, I was wondering if someone here can answer some questions for me. I tried to ask the guy that is selling the system, but, he is most likely going to tell me what I want to hear to make the sale:

1 - Is the electric use of an Air to Air heat pump going to be just as bad as just using my electric heat? In other words, will the new system be much more efficient? I would hate to spend close to 10 grand to find out I'm really not making much of a saving.

2 - In Northeastern Pennsylvania, it becomes very cold from Late December until about early May. Average temps about 15-25 degrees. Are these systems designed for a climate like that?

I have the exact model number (the quote) in front of me if anyone needs that info to assist in my decision.

Our minds are open to any alternate heating system that will save us money. It is not like our heart is set on this Air to Air heat pump. We just want to make sure if we spend the money on the system, that the saving will be substantial. So, if anyone sees the explanation of our setup, and, has any ideas, please share :)

One thing he told me that stuck with me was, if the temp should drop below 0 degrees (sometimes it does here) that an electric heater in the Air to Air system kicks in. Kinda scary being that electric heat is what were trying to avoid right now.

Any help that anyone can give me will be greatly appreciated, and, if any other info is needed, feel free to ask. As I stated earlier, we have 12k to work with, so, I want to take advantage and put it to something worth it for the money :)

Gary in PA

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Comments (7)

fsq4cw
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I would rethink the geothermal thing, especially if the cost of the project can be rolled into your mortgage and amortized over the life of the mortgage. When a life cycle analysis is done over the next 20-years, all thing considered, geothermal usually comes out on top.

An efficiency (COP) of 4, means that you can divide your electrical rate by 4 to determine the cost per kWhr. At the design temperature you have the backup may never come on with geothermal. Geothermal will also likely last twice as long as an air-source HP and likely be over 40% more efficient.

IMO

SR
big_al_41
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
You may want to check this out ...its a heat pump for I think your kind of area its call Acadia. See the link below

http://www.gotohallowell.com/

Good luck with all that

Big Al

Here is a link that might be useful: Acadia H P
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garyg
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
You need to Google "heat pump" and educate yourself.

A heat pump is simply a central a/c system that has a reversing valve in the condenser (outside unit) that allows the refrigerant to reverse direction and provide heat in the winter.

Discharge air temps of a heat pump vary with outdoor temps, but they generally produce 90 degree air from the vents (this is cooler than 120F air from a furnace).

Heat pumps produce cheap heat, about 300% less to run a heat pump at 45F ambient compared to oil at $4/gallon.

Below the balance point of your house (about 32F ambient, or so), the heat pump requires auxillary heat. This can be electric resistance strips in the air handler (indoor unit) or a supplimental gas/oil/propane furnace.

Good luck.
dgb49
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
No kidding, nobody wants to pay the high cost for gas / oil / elec. But understand it all comes from some power source, and it all has a finite amount of energy / BTU.

If you think you are gonna save big bucks by buying a different furnace, you are wrong.

What kind of heat does the home have now? Oil / Gas / Electric? Forced air or hot water baseboard/radiators?
zl700
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Welome DGB, a newcomer to the forum.

Original poster stated he had electric heat in his post.

Being in PA, a small house, Im sure it is baseboard electic heat. (that is a given)
abee2000
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hello

Your heat pump air-to-air sounds like the best options.

If you dont need to use it for water the COP is quite high, usually COP-3-4.

The COP means a ratio of what you get out vs what you put in. The COP of 3 is 3 times the heaat of what you put in. There are a number, some that get a COP of around 5 using source of 30F. Others list between 3-4 quite generally.

Carrier is a maker of one type which has a COP of 3 and is a small size.

When the source (outdoor temp) is low the COP goes down as does the output. (Below freezing especially).

Its worth having an oil or wood or gas heater to go with the system as back up. Heat pumps that can heat water have to work harder as the water is warmer than the air used in buildings, so they use expensive CO2 heat pumps which will set you back about $5K easily.

Therefore I would suggest keeping a boiler system, outdoor boiler.

An indoor stove needs fresh air which is not ideal for heat pump system which works ideally with heat recovery on the ventilation system (extract heat from waste air at 90% or so efficiency).

A neat approach may be to operate an air -to-air heat pump, aim for as high a COP as possible, but install a gas boiler if you have this. The smaller boilers, condensing systems, are surprisingly cheap. If you install a waste water heat recovery system which is just aa heat exchanger on you waste water from your shower, you can half the energy you need and thereby get by with a smaller boiler and consume only about 4-5kWh/day for shower water. A condensing boiler works most efficiently when working with water heating rather than central heating, and plus, the typical condensing system now heats so quickly that you dont need a hot water tank, reducing loses.

You would still have at least 15KW available for heating the home. This can be done by putting in a heating loop into the air ducting that is shared with the air-pump.

This could be a compact fan assisted system.

There would be expense in heating controls for all the ducting.

However, if you cannot put in ducting, then you can install a water radiator central heating system. To work with a heat pump, you can go for the super-efficient CO2 based systems that are emerging but expensive. The efficiency can be raised if the heat is needed at a low temperature, so requiring either under-floor heating or a 'fan assisted radiator' which extract more heat and can return the water to the heat pump much cooler than normal radiators, and require a lower temperature, raising COP.

I would go with:

Waste water heat exchanger ( I guess $500 est with capital cost $200-$300 plus basic installation if incorporated with a boiler installation and pipework anyway)

-this will reduce the energy requirement of the condensing
boiler, potentially allowing a smaller system.

Condensing boiler - 15-25kW output, 90% efficient, capital cost $500 ebay

Air-to-Air heat pump (in loft) - COP 3-5 (later figure seen in an Austrian GSHP but should work with airsource unless outside air is usually very cold?)

cost?

controls?

Fan assisted radiator in ducting for backup (run off boiler)?

Ventilation heat recovery
ojs2005
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
If we install a standard forced air/central air system with furnace, etc. can we use the same duct work later if we wanted to get a more energy efficient system with a heat pump and hydro-air back up? Or is the ductwork designed in a different manner for these more energy efficient systems?

Thanks.

HVAC Air to Air Heat Pump

Comments (7)

fsq4cw

big_al_41

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