Oh, absolutely. We have far more avenues for promoting ourselves than in any other era, and we are doing so at an alarmingly increasing rate. Online social networking, for example, is the perfect opportunity to scream at the world, "Look at meeeeeeee!" I no longer have a Facebook account, but when I did I noticed how the majority of my "friends" posted updates and photos that seemed designed to prove to everyone else that they were funny, beautiful, smart, rich, or a combination of any number of positive qualities. Even the self-deprecating humor often came across as an attempt to show to others a clever sense of humor. And yes, I was a participant in this too.

I notice that even in forums such as this, it's just so much "about ME". I am every bit as guilty as the next person, so I'm certainly not pointing fingers; it's just a fact. We love to talk about ourselves, to share our ideas and feelings - and we're equipped to do so as never before. In a way, it does foster a sense of community, but with that comes an increasing focus on ourselves. I really think it's a double-edged sword, and we walk a fine line between simply communicating and becoming self-absorbed instead of truly caring about other people.

Do you ever stop and think about how many times we use the word "I" in our posts? I do. (And there - I just did it again. And again. ;-))

While I understand we are all narcissistic to some degree, I started this discussion about the more toxic form of it.

I do understand that there is a much more toxic form than what I've outlined above. I wonder if narcissism is more often an inherent trait that manifests itself early on, or if it's something that also comes about in time? Just yesterday I had the misfortune of catching part of an interview with Kris Jenner on Good Morning America. Now, I don't know the Jenner/Kardashian bunch, but if ever there was a narcissistic family, they certainly seem to fit the bill. These people will seem to stop at nothing to stay in the limelight. Kim's recent 72-day marriage is probably either a result, or a symptom, of this kind of damaged mindset.

As an aside, when speaking about the incredibly expensive ring that Kim's soon-to-be-ex gave her, Kris stated that Kim would keep the ring, because (and I quote), "Nobody likes an Indian giver." Who uses that denigrating phrase anymore? How on earth she and her family have managed to achieve celebrity status is just mind-boggling.

Jan, so sorry to hear about your son's encounter with the mean, obnoxious teens. I agree that there is no "answer" you can give him other than, "There are unkind people like this in the world. They are the one's with the problem. You were doing nothing wrong, sweetie."

Yes, I hear what you are saying about the more "toxic" form of the disorder. It can be extraordinarily challenging to be around, to say the least. Severe narcissism is very resistant to therapy too. It's difficult to persuade a true narcissist that "they" have or are even part of, a problem.

Remember too, that narcissicists are the most miserable people on earth. The worst thing *you* can do is be happy. They have a deep emptiness that their quest for power, control and life's goodies can not fill. They are utterly bereft of any sort of peace, contentment or joy. It's really a very sad state of affairs.

Hhireno, loved your video! That guy is marvelous! I need to watch that several times over. Great message delivered with humor...thanks for sharing.

It is out there to an extent, and probably on the rise.
BUT, I have to agree with Graywings - there are still good people out there!! It is very important to me to help others in some way. I am sure I got a lot of that attitude from my upbringing - particularly my mom. We attend a church that is very active in community service and I have always enjoyed volunteer work. I think being involved in these has allowed me to come to know many "good" people who are passionate about helping others.

Funny this is mentioned today. As you know, I work on a college campus. Just this week, I was so proud of various co-workers and one of our graduate students in particular. We have a "situation" with an ill colleague who is fighting the limitations of his disease and is also basically on his own. To have this young man ask about cooking for our colleague - well it really touched me. What a fine young man he his.

tina

i don't equate narcissism necessarily with being a 'bad person' ... i think it's a very competitive society, high stress, etc, etc, etc ---becoming much more 'me' focused - what do 'i' or 'mine' need to do to succeed, excel, be recognized, survive, whatever.

the media, technology etc,etc has us knowing everything about everyone (politician's, the kardashians-:P, AND our children's classmates, coworkers, our neighbors, etc,etc,etc) everything/body can be googled,etc and i think it's human nature to want to compete... and i think in doing so, people become very self-centered...ie:it pays off to 'help others' so schools are suggesting/requiring it of students- and the MORE that is done, the better it 'looks' and the more lucrative it becomes so a lot of the altruism in volunteer work, etc has dwindled...

there are so many opportunities available today (a GOOD thing) that so many people are biting off more than they can chew (a BAD thing) and focus more on themselves/theirs... i really do think society/the world is evolving ... probably for the worse... but, i do think 'individually' there's alot of good!!! (ie-i think you can be a VERY caring nurse at work, and still be very self-centered in other ways...empathy can go many ways) people are people... but, as a society we're falling i think...united we stand, divided we fall... UGH...sooo cynical.

Again, well-said, Busybee! I don't think you are cynical, just observant! I meant to acknowledge your comments earlier about required "community service," something which in my view is such a farce!

Getting points, grades, or whatever students get for "volunteering," completely undermines the real merit and value and true reward of doing charitable deeds.

Young people need to learn the *intrinsic* worth and intangible rewards of giving. To give class credit for such contributions is robbing youth of the experience of what it feels like to give for its own sake. They are not assisted by such a practice to appreciate the notion that it is admirable to give even when a clear "reward" is not in sight. It fosters, imo, a "what's in it for me?" mentality.

Yes, there are good people in the world doing marvelous, good deeds everyday. Just behaving decently and respectfully can be a heroic task given the hostile climate in which we live. As Graywings said, the people I admire most are those quietly leading kind and unselfish lives.

To be perfectly blunt though, I don't think there are as many truly good-hearted, selfless people in the world today as in the past. How's that for cynical? Maybe as Busybee said, we are "evolving" and good-heartedness is falling away as we need to dig in our heels to survive.

Still, I don't stop pursuing the good. I look for it in people, Try to nurture it in myself, and attempt to be as positive and hopeful as possible. So maybe I'm skeptical, or simply prone to be negative, more than cynical?

Honestly, to me it all started with the propaganda battle against the Great Society. I think of Dallas, Dynasty, etc. and the promotion of the 'if you've got it, flaunt it' lifestyle, with the simultaneous sanctimonious emphasis on 'family' rather than 'community' - sure, it's nice to love your family, but don't let it stop there! The subtle shift in emphasis allows a world of negligence and 'turning a blind eye' to slip in.

The ever-further-reaching clutch of unregulated capitalism, combined with cutting the social safety net to those who need it bit by bit and promoting the idea that everyone's on their own, that "if you can't find a job, if you're not rich, blame yourself!" has left people grasping for whatever security they can find. Compare today's extortionary, fraudulent student loan situation and callous underfunding of veterans' health needs to immediately post-WWII G.I. bill that paid for college for millions of returning soldiers of all races, ethnicities, etc. Quite a different world view inherent in each.

There are probably many more people who would 'like' to do good for others, but are afraid they'll be taken advantage of, than we think. We're a society run on fear rather than hope right now. Until that changes, many people are huddling their family close in their tiny huts.

(hm, does this range too far? : ))

"i don't equate narcissism necessarily with being a 'bad person' .."

Clearly, Busybee3, you don't have a lot of pathological narcissists in your life. Count yourself lucky! ;-) Because if you did, you'd know how truly awful a full-fledged narcissist can be. I was married to a man with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) for 10 very long years. When I married him, I was a healthy, happy, confident person. But his emotional abuse took a heavy toll. To build himself up, he diminished me and everyone else around him, and because he was intelligent and charming (in a way), he was able to get away with it for a long long time. What was most striking was his utter and total lack of empathy. Consider this exchange from therapy:

Him (outraged): "She didn't even consider my feelings!"

Me: "I did. You wanted me to do 'this', and if I understood you correctly, your reasons were X, Y and Z. Is that right?"

Him: "Yes!"

Me: "Well, I considered your reasons. Then I considered what I wanted, which was 'that', for A, B and C reasons. And I decided that since the decision impacted me much more than it impacted you, that in this instance, I would do what I wanted to do."

Him: (to the therapist) "See! She didn't consider my feelings!"

Therapist: "It sounds like she did. She understood your position and considered it, but decided to do something else."

Him: "But she didn't do what I wanted! She didn't consider my feelings!"

Me: "What about my feelings? What about what I want?"

Him: "What about it? That's your problem!"

Me: "So whenever I want one thing and you want another, I should do what you want?"

Him: "Yes! You should consider my feelings!"

Seriously. He never even saw the ridiculousness of his position. Couldn't see it then -- to my knowledge, can't see it today.

Your point about community service for selfish reasons is also well-taken. Doing good for the wrong reasons is better than not doing good at all, but still -- it's disturbing.

"with the simultaneous sanctimonious emphasis on 'family' rather than 'community' - sure, it's nice to love your family, but don't let it stop there! The subtle shift in emphasis allows a world of negligence and 'turning a blind eye' to slip in. "

Beautifully said, Fly. And very observant!

I hear radio ads for luxury items all the time that feed into it: buy this expensive car/jewelry/spa package/whatever because it's what you "deserve," as if we deserve it simply by virtue of our existence.

I think there's evidence of narcissism rising in the way we do Christmas cards. I think in the past, people would send cards that said, "I wish YOU a happy holiday", etc. Now we send pics of ourselves or our kids (I have no problem with that)-- it's the accompanying letters I sometimes have a problem with-- all the bragging, which is saying "Look at us and aren't we great?" Not all letters are that way, of course, but some truly are.

sweeby- egads!... i didn't think we were talking the DSM IV here...
i would doubt if the incidence of the mental 'illness' of NPD has increased... i am certainly not talking about mental health diagnoses here and i would doubt if jan was either... one can have self-centered, self-absorbed, selfish, arrogant, etc traits/characteristics without having NPD!!! i thought we were all pretty clear on that here!

auntjen - Yes, it's the emphasis on "me" that I'm noticing so much right now. A friend told me she went to a college orientation with her son, and after the orientation, the college was taking questions from the audience. Another mother in the audience raised her hand and asked, "I see that most of the scheduled classes start at 8:30 a.m., and my daughter is just not a morning person, so what do you suggest she do?" The reply from the college presenter was, "I suggest your daughter get out of bed in time to get to class." Seriously.

stinky - Yes, I've known narcissistic people who truly care so little about others that they know nothing about even the people with whom they spend a lot of time. Parents are promoting self-centered tendencies with their children, in buying them the most expensive clothing and gear, as if that is what defines them as a good parent or their children as having status over others.

tina - yes, there are good people out there, and boy, is it refreshing to spend time with them. I'm realizing the effects others have on me and choosing carefully, as much as possible, whom I'm surrounded by.

busybee - I agree that it's a matter of degree, and your point about it being a survival instinct in times of stress is well taken. People are trying to survive, and sometimes that requires a degree of self-concern above others.

flyleft - great point, and well said!

sweeby - so sorry to hear of your difficult experience. That must have been incredibly stressful for you. I'm glad you were able to recognize the problem and do something about it. From what I understand, severely narcissistic people do not easily change.

goldgirl - yes "deserve" is used a lot in ads these days, which implies and reinforces a strong sense of entitlement.

nancybee - yes, the dreaded Christmas brag letters! I love getting Christmas cards and letters too, but some are so consumed with telling you about themselves, they forget their intention should be to wish the receiver well.

busy - You are correct that there is a difference between having narcissistic traits and NPD. Again, it's a continuum and a matter of degree.

So many insightful comments on this thread! I've gotten a lot out of reading all the views posted here. We are dealing with real changes in our society which are clearly impacting a lot of people.

Busybee, I hear what you are saying. Even the less serious varieties of narcissism are affecting us. Maybe Sweeby wanted to point out though, that NPD is out there and is a very malignant form of narcissism.

Sweeby, yes, NPD is a frightful thing. Being in the trenches with a true narcissist is never pretty.

Flyleft, how sad, but very true, "We're a society run on fear rather than hope right now."

Goldgirl, yes, our sense of entitlement is encouraged and appealed to regularly.

Nancy, that's so funny, but also very true...good observation. Insidious, these little changes...greeting cards that don't really greet, but instead "inform."

Good point Busybee3 -- My ex was DSM-IV NPD, so I'm definitely sensitized to see the 'bad person' side of narcissism. Sorry for derailing the thread...

But to the general trend -- I do see an increase, and I hold reality TV partially to blame. It's only the most outrageous, self-absorbed people that get featured, then TV hypes it as "reality". So the impressionable 'tweens want to be like the 'stars' on TV and start acting like little divas. As if 'just plain 12' wasn't bad enough! ;-)

I had such high hopes after Obama was elected, viewing his election as a victory of hope over fear. Guess the political spin-doctors had their way with me. ;-)

On a more positive note -- Like Jan, I have a son on the autism spectrum (almost 16), and I am so encouraged by the way he is treated by his classmates. Even though he struggles to understand social cues, so many of his peers have been so kind to him, saying "Hi" when we're out together, 'high-fiving' him at football games, engaging in text conversations several rounds past the point where they've gotten off track. In short, they've really seemed to accept him as a person who's a bit different but still a nice person -- not someone to tease or bully. Or more subtly, not even a person to shun or ignore. Some really nice kids -- and a definite change from how developmentally-disabled kids were treated when I was in high school.

Dee in Ohio, your post touched me deeply. I know how much it meant to me when my parents were treated with kindness and dignity when they were so very ill. And I totally agree with you stinky gardener about delayed gratification being necessary to build character and humility. We don't have to wait for too many things anymore do we? It is an uphill battle though to teach it to our children. Hubby and I are always the bad guys to them (our kids)for saying "no" when all the other parents say "yes". And Rosestink, I think you were out of line here. One's political party affiliation has no business being part of this thread and your comments may be percieved by some to be inflammatory. You cannot blame a political party for our society's narcissism.

Hmmmm, I guess I'll go stand over with graywings.

I work with high school dropouts, and I am so impressed with how nice and polite most of them are. Most of them will offer to help me if I'm carrying something heavy. I get hugs and thanks all the time. Whenever we have a particularly slow learner, someone who has been in special ed and really struggles with the curriculum, I am amazed at how kindly that person is treated. Other students will help them check their work, explain things they don't understand. I never, never see them make fun of the students who are particularly different. Most of "my" kids wait their turn politely. If I make a mistake and apologize, they are so quick to tell me that it's fine.

My kids and their friends are all in college, and most of the college kids I know don't act entitled. Most of them are working hard at their studies and are grateful they can stay in school. The job market is so bad for graduating students, and the competition for internships and jobs for graduates is so stiff, a lot of the students I know not only don't act entitled, they act very concerned and are trying to position themselves to find a job when they graduate. One kid very dear to my heart is working 3 jobs to be able to finish his education.

There are so many more young people volunteering for good causes now than there were when I was a teen. I certainly think part of what draws them into volunteering is to have something to put on their college apps. But once they start volunteering, quite a few of them continue because they see the need. My daughter spent about 20 hours a week volunteering over the summer, and about the same the summer before that. She had 13 hour days when she spent most of the day at her volunteer job and then went straight to her paying job in the late afternoon/night.

I feel like I have the best job in the world, because I get to see so many young people who lost their way and are trying to get back on the right track. Some days it's all I can do to keep from climbing on the table and cheering for them.

A lot of the young people I know just blow me away with how great they are.

I too was saying "no" to my kids when other parents were saying "yes". We didn't have the funds to say yes for the latest clothes, toys, travels. My kids had one luxury and unfortunately in these days it is a luxury and that's that I was an at home mom. I know that many can't afford to do that and realize how lucky we are that my DH's salary was able to pay the bills. I hope that my kids don;t have a sense of entitlement for things, I hope that they don't think that society owes them a living. They have been working since they were 17 to pay for the extras (skiing mainly) that they wanted.

I also find that the young people that my kids hang out with work hard at school, most work parttime, (and those that don;t are in programs that just don;t allow for it in terms of available time), and many volunteer in sports or in camps.

I also find them very accepting of everyone, regardless of how different they may be. My kids have a cousin who is transgendered (huh), they have a cousin who just had a baby yesterday, (not married to the father? - huh), they have a friend who suffers from depression, (Mom, Z had a really good day today and we had a blast - it was nice to see), and they treat their elderly grandmothers with such patience that I am in awe. That didn't all come from me but a lot of it came from their high school. They went to a small public high school that works really hard at teaching the kids not only academics but also empathy, understanding and acceptance. It wasn't perfect but they try.

I do know that when I was raising my children that the theory of the day was that they should have a say in what went on in the family and that you,as a parent, were supposed to be constantly praising them regardless of what they did. Every child was treated equally in sports days where everyone got a participation ribbon instead of a first, second or third.
My family is not a democracy, I'm the parent and they are the child which means that I run the show (they are basically people-in-training), when my kids screwed up they knew and were told when and why, and what is wrong with competition?

Perhaps if there was more competition where there are winners and losers when they were younger and less expectations of never doing anything wrong that there wouldn't be this sense of entitlement that is sometimes apparent.

Feel free to argue with my points. My kids often tell me that I am the meanest mom in the neighbourhood. Oh well, their friends tell their moms the same thing.

Lack of oxytocin. No, really! There's scientific evidence that oxytocin is the "compassion chemical". Just watched a really cool TED lecture on it yesterday. I'll post a link below...but the bottom line is "eight hugs per day." A hug raises one's oxytocin level and eight, according to the Paul Zak, is the magic number. In this lunatic world, I wonder how many people get their eight hugs per day?

Another point in the lecture..."social media" causes oxytocin levels to rise.

Here is a link that might be useful: Paul Zak: Trust, morality--and oxytocin

Just one example of of this trend ....

Here is a link that might be useful: Foreclosure firm threw

Interesting thread. I do think this has been going on for a while and that it is getting worse. When my now-32-year-old son was about six, he asked me (as we walked around the mall), "Mommie, why do WE always get out of everyone else's way?"

I also am a teacher. I think we do have lots of wonderful kiddoes out there. Although I have been feeling as though most of the younger teachers fit this type ("it is all about me"), I was so pleased on Friday afternoon when five students went out of their way to come to my office to say good-bye and wish me a good weekend. The three other teacher with whom I share the office didn't have even one child popping in to tell them the same (yes, I am smiling narcissistically now). I am hopeful that maybe this narcissistic attitude will peak and then die away when people begin to see that it really isn't so much fun to live in that kind of world.

Wow. Teacats, what a story! Isn't that just repulsive?

Oh, lawd. Did we have to go there?

*hugs everyone*

blfenton, your post reminded me of this which was shown on tv last night:
"The Occupy movement is no surprise. This is what happens when the 'everybody gets a trophy' generation meets reality. Now some people think they should be given prosperity just for showing up."

DH and I had a good chuckle remembering the end of soccer seasons when our kids were younger. Though the team may have had record losses, there was always at least one parent who felt every player should receive a trophy.:)

Yes, "everybody gets a trophy!" Well-said. Indeed, children can be punished by rewards in the long run, and often are, in a society obsessed with building "self-esteem" over character.

Real self-worth is acquired through stumbling, falling, getting up & trying again, not through coddling and over-protective sanctions against competition. I don't mean to sound overly stern. I believe in hugs and affection and unconditional love, but not in praise and prizes being doled out regardless of effort expended or results achieved.

IMO the narcissism has swung from everyone gets a trophy to you get a trophy when you do (to quote our president) "stuff that wasn't necessarily illegal, it was just immoral".

Blfenton, you can't possibly be the meanest mom in the world...I hold that title! Or at least I did when my kids were still teens. Now they're adults they appreciate me being so mean! We raised our children the same way...and everyone I know who raised kids like that has great kids.

I find myself, sometimes, with the 'to hell with it' attitude...simply because it's so prevalent, but then I stop and remember that I don't want to be like the other jerks out there, I'm happier when I'm a nice person.

I also notice that my kids and their friends seem to be much more compassionate than kids were when I grew up. I remember the kids teasing a girl who had mild cerebral palsy in my elementary school...and then I compare how my kids were championing their friends who had physical disabilities at the same age. I don't know if it's got to do with socio-economic status, geographics or what...but I don't see it as prevalent in my little world as I do on some TV shows. All I do know is that I'm so fed up with it being crammed down our throats on TV. I am not sure if the next generation is going to be so narcisstically inclined or if they're going to be more compassionate and willing to share. I certainly hope it's the latter. Now that I come to think of it, it seems that more people of MY generation tend to be more narcissistic and 'it's all about me' more so than the kids. And honestly, I see a lot of people who are my parents age who are downright stingy and small minded.

I really don't think this conversation needs to veer into the political realm. Some of us have very strong feelings that don't necessarily need to be shared. (Myself included.)

I still have the view that most people are good and will extend a helping hand.

I also believe in a fair playing field for everyone. I heard a quote the other day that was something like "He was born on third base but thinks he is the one who hit the triple". I can look past that mindset in the young (they will probably grow out of it) but see it more and more in adults in power.

My dd has an interview with the Peace Corps tomorrow. I am proud of her and at the same time terrified she will be asked to join. Two years out of the country. Most likely Africa.

Talk about narcissism...I want her to follow her path to help the world, but don't want my daughter in harms way. I need to do some more thinking. It's easy to talk the talk but I'm having trouble doing the walk when it comes to my loved ones.

I do agree that there feels to me to be more hope in the younger generation...maybe because they didn't grow up watching Dallas and Dynasty, but rather live in an era of disappearing natural resources and global climate change. Circumstances are going to force these kids' hands, going to make them decide if they are to be a 'we' society or a 'me' society, to quote a political commentator. Conspicuous consumption without considering the consequences to others, (and thus to one's self, as we all breathe the same air and live under the same sun) as we were encouraged to do simply can't continue; some other model has to become ascendant. I do see many kids aware of this situation and concerned to *help* in whatever way they can. Some of the ways that our generation lived make laughably little sense to the next generation. It gives me hope.

Interesting thoughts, all. I'm not so cynical that I deny the existence of good qualities in our youth. However, I am very concerned by the media to which our children are exposed. The emphasis on "me" is so strong, how can it not influence our newest generation's values?

See my link below for an article on "Generation Me".

Here is a link that might be useful: 10 Characteristics of Generation Me

Well, if the baby boomers have reaped what they have sown...

I wonder what the kids born to Generation Me will be like--?!

Anyone see "Freshly Squeezed" today?

It fits with my 'second generation of wealth' theory...that there's a generation that works their butts off achieving wealth and security from hardship, and the next generation, the trust fund generation, has no idea what it's like to work for a living and wanders around in life wasting it, and the third generation pretty much blows whatever's left. Not all the time, but with some regularity among extremely wealthy families I've known...

Here is a link that might be useful: apropos

Yes, I also see hopeful signs among today's youth, and perhaps I painted with way too broad a brush when I said in my first post here that,

"We are in danger of becoming a nation of babies, concerned with little more than the latest video game or fashion craze."

Okay, that's a bit over-stated! Think I was feeling cranky. Sorry young folks!

Nah, you were thinking of my lovely 14 y.o. daughter...

feeling cranky right now too : (

I've been using the term "entitlement" as the trend in people today, but maybe there isn't that much difference between entitled people and narcissistic people. The comment about the influence of reality TV really resonated with me. I've suspected for some time that reality TV has been having a direct effect on our school children, but I have never seen anything in print regarding these issues.

Not only do kids, the younger generation, and maybe all of us in general, have this sense of entitlement, but people who think of others first can trampled on in our society.

As to "generation me"...the kids I know who are in their early-to-mid twenties are some of the nicest,engaged, compassionate people I know. They volunteer, are willing to work multiple part-time jobs (which is good-because part-time is all that's out there for most of the kids who are graduating right now), and get off their butts and vote.

Or maybe my sons and their friends are exceptions to the rule.

(Also--almost all 13-16 year-olds are "narcissistic"--no matter WHEN they were born. It is how they are wired. There's a reason boarding school was invented...)

mjsee, I SO needed that line!

Re boarding school: do you remember in Sound of Music when the Baroness confided in Max? Quite a coincidence; I've been thinking of that line recently...

I thought of this thread when DH came home from the doctor today. He has severe lower back pain and goes to a pain specialist who administers epidurals. Every patient is there for pain. When the epidural is administers, the patient must be accompanied by someone to drive them home (DH was not there for an epidural today). The office has a very small waiting room, probably 12 seats.

Today, he said there was an 80 year old woman who was accompanied by 6 family members, who were there from around the country waiting for a family member to come home from Afghanistan. Important stuff. For them.

However, they all took seats in the waiting room, catching up, oblivious to others around them, while the actual pain patients stood outside in the hallway. DH said it made him very angry, but he didn't say anything. These are the kind of circumstances where I find it hard to hold my tongue. And, where, in the past, I have not.

That's incredible, Dee. I think I would have said "Are you in pain?" and then looked significantly over at a patient...let the person put 2 and 2 together...and if s/he couldn't add, then I'd just say "Would you please stand so that someone who's in a lot of pain can sit?"

Unless the people who were standing were doing so because they hurt? and couldn't sit down? I remember my herniated disks time -- I couldn't sit that much and it took a lot of effort to get up from a sitting position, so maybe the patients are choosing to stand? Just one idea, I obviously don't know...although maybe they could 'stand' to ask...

Jan, I enjoyed the article you linked. I think the author really hit the mark!

Dee, I agree with Flyleft (& your DH.) That behavior was quite inconsiderate. Situations like that shouldn't be left to chance. I think that it is the responsibility of office staff to insure that all patients visiting the facility, waiting to receive treatment, are provided with seating. That should be policy...period.

An employee should have come out to the waiting area and politely informed all visitors that seating was needed for patients.

If I worked in that office, not only would I have done that, but at the next staff meeting would have brought up the idea of creating a policy to that effect, as well as a sign to post in the waiting room stating such a policy. Any medical facility should anticipate such scenarios (especially in this day and age) and be prepared to respond professionally and without fanfare.

I'm going to skew this a bit. There is a difference between true narcissim and entitlement. Sweeby...17 years with one and the oldest son is one too. They can charm anyone, help if needed and suck people in. Psychotherapy with them is a doctor's hell. I walk on egg shells around them and heaven forbid a comment regarding something intelligent comes out of my mouth. They can make anyone feel like the lowest IQ. Thankfully the ex isn't around to deal with since my kids are in the late 40s. With the oldest one I let him talk and ask all those wonderful questions about his career and success. Stay far away from anything controversial, although once in a while I do get bit by him. They are very difficult to deal with and do not change.

Entitlement is another aspect. Rude, cannot see beyond themselves, always first, rarely consider another, loud. I think there is definitely a label for them and yes it is the environment we live in. They may have some of the narcissitic's personalities, but the rudenss in our current society has gone beyond. I'd hope this may change, but better judgement tells me this will get worse. Or I'm just too old to consider a positive. I rarely go shopping anymore (thankful for the net) and hate traffic.

Yes indeed, Emagineer, we noted earlier how narcissism is on a continuum. I do think chronic, severe rudeness is narcissistic behavior, but it's not the full throttle, life-destroying NPD to which you are referring.

I've been there and have the scars, Emagineer. Unless one has "been there," I don't think the pain can be fathomed. Others can't fully grasp the wide-ranging repercussions, and how deep and profound the suffering can be.

The silver lining to being on the receiving end of the narcissist's behavior? I think it's clear that you and Sweeby, (hopefully I) have a finely tuned awareness that otherwise we would not have. It's been hard-won wisdom, but I think we do walk away from the wreckage with gifts as well as wounds.

I've been reading this thread, and am glad others have chimed in about the difference between entitled individuals and true narcissists. A very close family member is a narcissist. Sometimes I look back and think, my God, for 70+ years, people have been pounding their foreheads into cement walls trying to please him, live with him, work with him, love him, etc. -and here he is 70+ years later, convinced mightily that he never gets his fair share of attention, love, whatever. It is always, always, always all about his feelings, even while he tromps roughly over everyone else's. Since he has no friends, we are the target of his wrath and lectures all the time. Nobody in this family is a patsy -but short of ex-communicating him, this is the best we can do. Few of us try to change him anymore, just nod our heads and try to get out of the room eventually, but it is tough.....

On the other hand, I'm a teacher, and every time I hear people complain about this generation, I'm honestly puzzled. I come upon such great kids every single day. Yes, of course, there are a few toots out there, but in almost every way, this generation is head and shoulders above where we stood. I sometimes wonder if I am walking around with blinders on, but I can't convince myself of that. I read the papers and other media -I know it's a commonly held perception that this generation is wanting on many levels, but I truly, truly never come up against this in real life.

"Few of us try to change him anymore, just nod our heads and try to get out of the room eventually, but it is tough....." Sounds like a classic case, Bestyears! You & your family are wise, very wise, to respond as you do.

"...there are a few toots out there..." I'm going to coin that.."toots!" Cute!

Glad your experiences are positive, Best. What do you teach?

I had to read the definition of narcissism again to make sure I really understood.

I don't see it in the kids today, but it could be where I live.

After reading the definition, it describes my mom to a T. When I was growing up it didn't bother me, but since I became a mother it is THE most painful experience I've gone through as an adult.

My mom is smart and very talented decorating wise. But the world is all about her. To this day if she gets a compliment on her looks you can be certain she'll tell someone about it.

I love her dearly but she's all about herself. And Lord have mercy on the person who cracks a joke around her because she has NO sense of humor & she'll take it personally and get angry and slam doors!

Years ago I talked to her about it and she just didn't get it. What she did at my father's funeral had to be the most embarrassing thing of my life. LOL Which is another post.

My dad fits the DSMV definition of a narcissist. Those of us who have lived with one would never refer to selfishness run amok as NPD. To meet him you'd think he's the most charming man in the world. And he can be. He can also be a right bastage. Luckily, when I was 20, I gave up trying to please him. I am polite, but I don't go out of my way to contact him. He's on his third wife. She's younger than I am. I feel sorry for her.

I've often wondered if my MIL is narcissistic or self-centered. All conversations have to revolve around her, she is a mean-spirited gossip and she is always late for everything so that we are kept waiting. (well not me anymore because I, although she only lives 10 minutes away from me, no longer see her).
I always remember picking her up for my DS high school grad ceremony and, after waiting for her for 10 minutes to finish up a phone call with a friend, she got into the car and immediately started talking about what she had done the previous weekend. No comment to my son about how nice he looked in his suit, how excited he must be, congratulating him for getting into the school/program that he had worked so hard to get into - nothing. My son asked me about it afterward and I just told him that that was Nana. But I just wanted to cry for him.
That is what she is like. All conversations must be about her.

blfenton - Your MIL's characteristics are just what I started this thread about. The self-consumed, me-first attitude is over the top. And, worse, this behavior hurts those around the narcissistic person so much and yet, the narcissist is so blind to it all. It's so sad.